Author Topic: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.  (Read 197 times)

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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« on: March 07, 2019, 01:11:22 PM »
In looking at the stichera for Sunday evening in Tone 7 in the Greek Octoechos, I am puzzled about a particular phrase:

Quote
Φλόγα πυρὸς τοὺς Ἀγγέλους, Χριστὲ ἀπειργάσω,
τούτων ἡμῖν τὸ θερμὸν ὑπεμφαίνων,
καὶ πνεῦμα πάλιν τὸ ταχὺ διαγράφων.
Παντοδύναμε Κύριε, δόξα σοι.

It's a situation where I understand the words, but I'm not entirely sure what is meant. Archimandrite Ephrem Lash's website translates:

Quote
You made your Angels a flame of fire, O Christ, showing to us their burning heat and depicting against the swift spirit. All-powerful Lord, glory to you.

Which really doesn't help; the exact sense of διαγράφων is the hangup for me here. Any help what this phrase means, or a better translation?
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2019, 01:33:36 PM »
It's a weird verb indeed, just opened it in LSJ, and apart from the obvious "to delineate" meaning, it has some conotations such as to list, to order, to distribute, and, a pair which I believe to make it an autantonym, both "to enlist" and "to strike out" (which extends to "to reduce", "to rescind"). I believe the meaning you're looking for here is "and striking out the swift spirit". I'm thinking "πάλιν" is phrasal here, complementing "διαγράφω".

By the way, I can't find Archimandrite Ephraim's website.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2019, 01:49:12 PM »
In looking at the stichera for Sunday evening in Tone 7 in the Greek Octoechos, I am puzzled about a particular phrase:

Quote
Φλόγα πυρὸς τοὺς Ἀγγέλους, Χριστὲ ἀπειργάσω,
τούτων ἡμῖν τὸ θερμὸν ὑπεμφαίνων,
καὶ πνεῦμα πάλιν τὸ ταχὺ διαγράφων.
Παντοδύναμε Κύριε, δόξα σοι.

It's a situation where I understand the words, but I'm not entirely sure what is meant. Archimandrite Ephrem Lash's website translates:

Quote
You made your Angels a flame of fire, O Christ, showing to us their burning heat and depicting against the swift spirit. All-powerful Lord, glory to you.

Which really doesn't help; the exact sense of διαγράφων is the hangup for me here. Any help what this phrase means, or a better translation?

Could the πνεῦμα be more in a connotation of wind, here? I know the psalm verse this is referring to has been translated in two ways: 1. "You make your angels spirits, and your ministers a flaming fire" or 2. "You make the winds your messengers, and your ministers a flaming fire."

Not that this necessarily clarifies the phrase- I don't have any Greek myself.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2019, 10:52:33 PM »
By the way, I can't find Archimandrite Ephraim's website.

I found it through archive.org.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline augustin717

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2019, 11:11:54 PM »
Φλόγα πυρὸς τοὺς Ἀγγέλους, Χριστὲ ἀπειργάσω,
τούτων ἡμῖν τὸ θερμὸν ὑπεμφαίνων,
καὶ πνεῦμα πάλιν τὸ ταχὺ διαγράφων.
Παντοδύναμε Κύριε, δόξα σοι
You have made the flames of fire angels,
Showing / Proving unto us their heat.
Αnd again, circumscribing the Swift wind
.....
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline augustin717

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2019, 11:22:38 PM »
As you’d translate in Latin:
Flammas ignis angelos, Christie, fecisti
Eorum nobis calorem monstrans
 VEntumque denuo citum circumscripsisti
Omnipotens Domine, gloria tibi.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 11:23:22 PM by augustin717 »
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline augustin717

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2019, 11:25:58 PM »
The idea being that XC set limits to the swift wind.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2019, 11:49:42 PM »
Φλόγα πυρὸς τοὺς Ἀγγέλους, Χριστὲ ἀπειργάσω,
τούτων ἡμῖν τὸ θερμὸν ὑπεμφαίνων,
καὶ πνεῦμα πάλιν τὸ ταχὺ διαγράφων.
Παντοδύναμε Κύριε, δόξα σοι
You have made the flames of fire angels,
Showing / Proving unto us their heat.
Αnd again, circumscribing the Swift wind
.....
Wow that is totally off.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2019, 11:54:03 PM »
Φλόγα πυρὸς τοὺς Ἀγγέλους, Χριστὲ ἀπειργάσω,
τούτων ἡμῖν τὸ θερμὸν ὑπεμφαίνων,
καὶ πνεῦμα πάλιν τὸ ταχὺ διαγράφων.
Παντοδύναμε Κύριε, δόξα σοι
You have made the flames of fire angels,
Showing / Proving unto us their heat.
Αnd again, circumscribing the Swift wind
.....

Wow that is totally off.
Actually it’s not. Of course the English version needs to be smoothed but that is the grammar structure of the text. Christ setting bounds to the wind. Pretty easy.
“Out of flames of fire you have made [your] messengers, o Christ, manifesting unto us their heat; and again you have set bounds to the swift wind, almighty Lord, glory to you!”
That “palin” adverb looks like a filler sort of a word only used for metric purposes.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 12:02:03 AM by augustin717 »
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline augustin717

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2019, 12:49:47 AM »
Now I noticed I’ve said “bounds”  thinking of “boundaries “. Sometimes I suspect I’m a bit dyslexic.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Help understanding a phrase in a sticheron.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2019, 01:25:40 AM »
Now I noticed I’ve said “bounds”  thinking of “boundaries “. Sometimes I suspect I’m a bit dyslexic.

"Bounds" is perfectly correct, if a bit archaic.
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