Author Topic: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia  (Read 3958 times)

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Offline IreneOlinyk

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EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« on: February 24, 2019, 07:14:11 PM »
Long overdue.

Quote
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, .... has been plagued by numerous controversies under the leadership of its current head, Archbishop Demetrios, involving finances and misappropriated funds.

In both Australia and Great Britain, illness and advanced age of the hierarchs have led to the Patriarchate’s decision to promote younger leaders to head the churches.
Archbishop Stylianos of Australia is 83 years old and suffering from a debilitating illness that has prevented him from performing many of the duties required of him and his expansive territory that covers all of Australia.
Meanwhile, Archbishop Gregorios, who oversees the Greek Orthodox parishes in the United Kingdom, is more than 90 years old.



Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2019, 07:56:54 PM »
I swear every month it gets reported that Archbishop Demetrios has been forced to resign by Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. Why's this report more accurate? :P
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Offline hecma925

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2019, 08:28:33 PM »
Source?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2019, 08:51:45 PM »
If true it’s probably bad news for ACROD and UOCofUSA.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2019, 08:53:45 PM »
ACROD is ahead of the game with a Greek bishop.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2019, 09:37:52 PM »
If true it’s probably bad news for ACROD and UOCofUSA.

why?  they don't have bishops in their 90's or 80's or financial mismanagement.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2019, 09:52:21 PM »
Have you not paid attention to what is happening to Rue Daru?
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2019, 10:37:26 PM »
Have you not paid attention to what is happening to Rue Daru?

In this situation the EP is speaking to the problem of too old Greek Hierarchs in the UK & Australia and the financial problems with Metr. Demetrius in GOARCH.

You cannot compare that issue to what is going on in the Rue Daru Diocese: being forced to submit to loosing their unique status and church goverance.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2019, 10:50:04 PM »
The absorption of Rue Daru was requested by Met. Emanuelle.

 The main problem with Archbishop Demetrius is that he is not a Phanar lackey. He will be replaced by someone who is. Then the moves against ACROD might be made.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 10:52:39 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2019, 11:06:50 PM »
Wishing to grant pardon for ancient debts, he who cancels the debts of all people came himself and dwelt among those who were estranged from his divine grace; and tearing apart the record of sin, he hears from everyone: Alleluia.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2019, 01:03:30 AM »
The absorption of Rue Daru was requested by Met. Emanuelle.

 The main problem with Archbishop Demetrius is that he is not a Phanar lackey. He will be replaced by someone who is. Then the moves against ACROD might be made.

And that would be deplorable given that ACROD gets the best Sunday attendance ratio of any North American Eastern Orthodox Church. 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 01:03:50 AM by Alpha60 »

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Offline Samn!

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2019, 05:00:51 AM »
In a recent interview, Met Emanuel stated that suppressing Rue Daru is part of the EP's general vision for changing how jurisdiction the diaspora works:

Quote
As stated in the Holy Synod communiqué on November 27, 2018, the decision to revoke the 1999 patriarchal and synodal tomos was a necessary and essential step in order to meet the challenges we are facing today in the organization of the Orthodox diaspora to meet the pastoral needs of our time. With new walls being built today in Orthodoxy and real risks of division, the Patriarch and the Holy Synod wished to make the organization of our communities in the diaspora more in keeping with Orthodox ecclesiology. So that, as the Statement says, “there would not be two ecclesiastical authorities of the same jurisdiction in the same territory”.

I understand the questions and concerns raised by this decision, but we have to understand that in the jurisdictional disorder prevailing today in the diaspora, the Ecumenical Patriarchate must set an example. It is up to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, as the first Church in Orthodoxy, to guarantee unity and catholicity in the Church, both at the local and universal levels.
source: https://orthodoxie.com/en/interview-with-metropolitan-emmanuel-of-france-on-the-future-of-the-archdiocese-of-russian-orthodox-churches-in-western-europe/

In any event, Abp Demetrios did a lot to shelter Orthodoxy in the US (and by no means only GOARCH) from the normal way that the Phanar operates in the diaspora. Whoever it turns out to be, his replacement will be a rude awakening for all of American Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 05:01:14 AM by Samn! »

Offline hecma925

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 09:05:28 AM »
Whoever it turns out to be, his replacement will be a rude awakening for all of American Orthodoxy.

Hmmm.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2019, 10:54:10 AM »
On the other hand: the changes could open the door to discussions about expanding the role of the laity in church governance.  Especially in choosing/ electing a new hierarchs.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2019, 03:13:45 PM »
On the other hand: the changes could open the door to discussions about expanding the role of the laity in church governance.  Especially in choosing/ electing a new hierarchs.
None of which can happen until the sees of said hierarchs are canonically vacant (they repose, resign, are canonically deposed) so again, are these hierarchs deposed so that canonical elections can take place?
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2019, 03:31:53 PM »
On the other hand: the changes could open the door to discussions about expanding the role of the laity in church governance.  Especially in choosing/ electing a new hierarchs.
None of which can happen until the sees of said hierarchs are canonically vacant (they repose, resign, are canonically deposed) so again, are these hierarchs deposed so that canonical elections can take place?

How about starting with proposed changes to the GOARCH charter (statute) to incorporate a role for the laity as voting members on church councils and in electing the hierarchy?

Offline Agabus

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2019, 03:38:13 PM »
On the other hand: the changes could open the door to discussions about expanding the role of the laity in church governance.  Especially in choosing/ electing a new hierarchs.
None of which can happen until the sees of said hierarchs are canonically vacant (they repose, resign, are canonically deposed) so again, are these hierarchs deposed so that canonical elections can take place?
"Canonical" is a funny way to describe most American jurisdictions anyway.
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2019, 04:18:53 PM »
On the other hand: the changes could open the door to discussions about expanding the role of the laity in church governance.  Especially in choosing/ electing a new hierarchs.

Why should laymen have any role in church governance? I guess many would want that but I haven't seen too much of an actual religious arguments for that.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2019, 05:53:01 PM »
On the other hand: the changes could open the door to discussions about expanding the role of the laity in church governance.  Especially in choosing/ electing a new hierarchs.

Why should laymen have any role in church governance? I guess many would want that but I haven't seen too much of an actual religious arguments for that.

Try looking at the charters of the Finnish Orthodox Church, the OCA, the MP, the Romanian Orthodox Church.

Offline Samn!

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2019, 06:43:38 PM »

Try looking at the charters of the Finnish Orthodox Church, the OCA, the MP, the Romanian Orthodox Church.

And especially Cyprus. But the problem of lay input being hijacked and transformed into rich-guy input is very hard to prevent.

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2019, 07:34:50 PM »
I am very sorry about all this. I am just going to pray for everyone involved.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 07:35:07 PM by biro »
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 08:07:22 PM »
ACROD is ahead of the game with a Greek bishop.

Who loves his people (ACROD), and has said he's not interested in making them Greek.

I swear every month it gets reported that Archbishop Demetrios has been forced to resign by Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew. Why's this report more accurate? :P

Whether it comes true or not, the major difference here (versus prior rumor-fueled articles) is that someone captured the EP commenting on video.

If true it’s probably bad news for ACROD and UOCofUSA.

why?  they don't have bishops in their 90's or 80's or financial mismanagement.

The age of the Hierarch shouldn't matter, assuming that he is of sound mind and body.  And the financial mismanagement wasn't really the Archbishop's fault (I'll get to that later).

ok then.

Have these hierarchs been notified that they've been deposed?

They've not been deposed per se

In this situation the EP is speaking to the problem of too old Greek Hierarchs in the UK & Australia and the financial problems with Metr. Demetrius in GOARCH.

Archbishop Demetrios, παρακαλώ.  The financial problems were largely because he over-trusted the laypersons involved with the details of administration.  The long version of this answer would take me an hour or more to draft, and it would include mistakes made by a few beloved departed persons, so I'm going to avoid it.

On the other hand: the changes could open the door to discussions about expanding the role of the laity in church governance.  Especially in choosing/ electing a new hierarchs.

In the GOA there is an advisory function performed by the Archdiocesan Council in all hierarchical elections (both to provide recommendations, and to inform of challenges or strong objections).  But the laity can't be involved in the election itself since, per our charter, the Patriarchal Synod performs all the official elections.  (The Eparchial Synod creates the 3-person nominating ballot for Metropolitans and Bishops, but the ballot is made by the Patriarchal Synod for the election of Archbishop.)

I am very sorry about all this. I am just going to pray for everyone involved.

This is the wisest course of action, methinks.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2019, 03:11:02 PM »
ACROD is ahead of the game with a Greek bishop.

Who loves his people (ACROD), and has said he's not interested in making them Greek.

That Metropolitan Gregory is a good and loving bishop is not in question. The question is whether the new GOA Archbishop will try to implement the consolidation attempted in Western Europe. If he does then Metropolitan Gregory's sentiments are unlikely to count for much.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2019, 03:36:25 PM »
ACROD is ahead of the game with a Greek bishop.

Who loves his people (ACROD), and has said he's not interested in making them Greek.

That Metropolitan Gregory is a good and loving bishop is not in question. The question is whether the new GOA Archbishop will try to implement the consolidation attempted in Western Europe. If he does then Metropolitan Gregory's sentiments are unlikely to count for much.

This.
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Offline Mercurius1

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2019, 04:09:07 PM »
In a recent interview, Met Emanuel stated that suppressing Rue Daru is part of the EP's general vision for changing how jurisdiction the diaspora works:

Quote
As stated in the Holy Synod communiqué on November 27, 2018, the decision to revoke the 1999 patriarchal and synodal tomos was a necessary and essential step in order to meet the challenges we are facing today in the organization of the Orthodox diaspora to meet the pastoral needs of our time. With new walls being built today in Orthodoxy and real risks of division, the Patriarch and the Holy Synod wished to make the organization of our communities in the diaspora more in keeping with Orthodox ecclesiology. So that, as the Statement says, “there would not be two ecclesiastical authorities of the same jurisdiction in the same territory”.

I understand the questions and concerns raised by this decision, but we have to understand that in the jurisdictional disorder prevailing today in the diaspora, the Ecumenical Patriarchate must set an example. It is up to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, as the first Church in Orthodoxy, to guarantee unity and catholicity in the Church, both at the local and universal levels.
source: https://orthodoxie.com/en/interview-with-metropolitan-emmanuel-of-france-on-the-future-of-the-archdiocese-of-russian-orthodox-churches-in-western-europe/

In any event, Abp Demetrios did a lot to shelter Orthodoxy in the US (and by no means only GOARCH) from the normal way that the Phanar operates in the diaspora. Whoever it turns out to be, his replacement will be a rude awakening for all of American Orthodoxy.


What do you mean by the last bit where you say it will be a rude awakening for American Orthodoxy? Given that GOARCH functions independently, why would what the EP is doing have an effect on the rest of us?

Offline Samn!

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2019, 05:04:16 PM »
In a recent interview, Met Emanuel stated that suppressing Rue Daru is part of the EP's general vision for changing how jurisdiction the diaspora works:

Quote
As stated in the Holy Synod communiqué on November 27, 2018, the decision to revoke the 1999 patriarchal and synodal tomos was a necessary and essential step in order to meet the challenges we are facing today in the organization of the Orthodox diaspora to meet the pastoral needs of our time. With new walls being built today in Orthodoxy and real risks of division, the Patriarch and the Holy Synod wished to make the organization of our communities in the diaspora more in keeping with Orthodox ecclesiology. So that, as the Statement says, “there would not be two ecclesiastical authorities of the same jurisdiction in the same territory”.

I understand the questions and concerns raised by this decision, but we have to understand that in the jurisdictional disorder prevailing today in the diaspora, the Ecumenical Patriarchate must set an example. It is up to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, as the first Church in Orthodoxy, to guarantee unity and catholicity in the Church, both at the local and universal levels.
source: https://orthodoxie.com/en/interview-with-metropolitan-emmanuel-of-france-on-the-future-of-the-archdiocese-of-russian-orthodox-churches-in-western-europe/

In any event, Abp Demetrios did a lot to shelter Orthodoxy in the US (and by no means only GOARCH) from the normal way that the Phanar operates in the diaspora. Whoever it turns out to be, his replacement will be a rude awakening for all of American Orthodoxy.


What do you mean by the last bit where you say it will be a rude awakening for American Orthodoxy? Given that GOARCH functions independently, why would what the EP is doing have an effect on the rest of us?

One example is Abp Demetrios sticking his neck out to allow the OCA to be a part of the episcopal assembly, against the EP's wishes. But in general, Constantinople has tense or conflictual relationships with other churches elsewhere in the diaspora because your average EP metropolitan really believes in applying the Fanariot interpretation of Canon 28 of Chalcedon to the letter.

Offline Orest

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2019, 05:27:29 PM »
I doubt the Episcopal Assembly in the USA is foremost in the mind of the EP.

Offline tcolon90

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2019, 07:53:10 AM »
 The laity already have too much control with the parish purse. Last thing we need is allowing stingy old women to have a say in hierarchical matters.

It was the laity of a GOA church which told me I had to pay 500 in stewardship funds to have my kid baptised. Never mind all the money I spent there apart from membership fees.

It's a psuedo-greek social club these parish councils. The less say they have the better. Maybe we should start doing it the old fashioned way where the deacon manages the purse. But the deaconate seems to be less valued nowadays. Many churches don't even have them. More people to pay I guess.
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2019, 08:00:23 AM »
I doubt the Episcopal Assembly in the USA is foremost in the mind of the EP.

No but refusing to accept the OCAs status as an autocephalous church is. Granted the OCA does have issues but the Abp doing this means he feels the EPs stance is unwarranted.
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2019, 10:01:55 AM »
The laity already have too much control with the parish purse. Last thing we need is allowing stingy old women to have a say in hierarchical matters.

It was the laity of a GOA church which told me I had to pay 500 in stewardship funds to have my kid baptised. Never mind all the money I spent there apart from membership fees.

It's a psuedo-greek social club these parish councils. The less say they have the better. Maybe we should start doing it the old fashioned way where the deacon manages the purse. But the deaconate seems to be less valued nowadays. Many churches don't even have them. More people to pay I guess.

But what's the alternate when many of the bishops also act like a money grubbing, pseudo-Greek social club?
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2019, 02:18:08 PM »
It was the laity of a GOA church which told me I had to pay 500 in stewardship funds to have my kid baptised. Never mind all the money I spent there apart from membership fees.
Wow... You are really making me value the OCA more.
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Offline tcolon90

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2019, 04:55:55 PM »
It was the laity of a GOA church which told me I had to pay 500 in stewardship funds to have my kid baptised. Never mind all the money I spent there apart from membership fees.
Wow... You are really making me value the OCA more.

Yes I was sent a letter stating that I should pay the fee before the baptism "in order to avoid any embarassment." I took that as not baptise my kid. Poir priest had to cover his ignorant parish's arse after I called him complaining. Not really his fault. The GOA is just systematically diseased. My beloved OCA has issues but I think the Greeks take the cake for dysfunctionality.
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2019, 05:03:00 PM »
And wow, a week later, nothing official. Just comments and wishful thinking from the Greek press.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2019, 01:37:41 PM »
Yes I was sent a letter stating that I should pay the fee before the baptism "in order to avoid any embarassment." I took that as not baptise my kid. Poir priest had to cover his ignorant parish's arse after I called him complaining. Not really his fault. The GOA is just systematically diseased. My beloved OCA has issues but I think the Greeks take the cake for dysfunctionality.

I wonder how common that is in the GOA. Do they charge just for baptism or for other services (marriage, funerals, house blessings).

An AOCNA parish that I attended for a bit had "Stewardship", which involved tithing and paying a percent of your income. I don't remember if that involved the parish going into your finances. I think some churches do- they visit your home about it and/or look into how much a make a year. My old PCUSA church used to do the house call thing.
I don't know if any OCA parishes do the tithing, charging for services, etc.
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2019, 01:54:51 PM »
Yes I was sent a letter stating that I should pay the fee before the baptism "in order to avoid any embarassment." I took that as not baptise my kid. Poir priest had to cover his ignorant parish's arse after I called him complaining. Not really his fault. The GOA is just systematically diseased. My beloved OCA has issues but I think the Greeks take the cake for dysfunctionality.

I wonder how common that is in the GOA. Do they charge just for baptism or for other services (marriage, funerals, house blessings).

An AOCNA parish that I attended for a bit had "Stewardship", which involved tithing and paying a percent of your income. I don't remember if that involved the parish going into your finances. I think some churches do- they visit your home about it and/or look into how much a make a year. My old PCUSA church used to do the house call thing.
I don't know if any OCA parishes do the tithing, charging for services, etc.

My parish (OCA) takes pledges, with no specific 'dues' amount...and no 'inspection' of ones house to see how wealthy one is...that is frankly crude and disrespectful...

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2019, 03:10:57 PM »
It was the laity of a GOA church which told me I had to pay 500 in stewardship funds to have my kid baptised. Never mind all the money I spent there apart from membership fees.

That's not right.  It seems to be more common in areas where stewardship is bad, or where there are a lot of drop-in "destination" sacraments, but regardless of the circumstances it isn't right.

(I don't object to saying, "Hey, please make sure you take care of the chanter and sexton who are working unpaid OT to be here.")

It's a psuedo-greek social club these parish councils. The less say they have the better.

Like with priests, it's a mixed bag.  I've seen good Councils made of God-fearing people, and I've seen bad councils with folks ruled by their fear and insecurity.  I've seen the same among by brother clergy.

Maybe we should start doing it the old fashioned way where the deacon manages the purse. But the deaconate seems to be less valued nowadays. Many churches don't even have them. More people to pay I guess. 

I hate the devaluation of the Deaconate.  We have so few in the ranks of the clergy that many ascribe to a deficit mindset - we don't have enough priests, so we can't afford to keep just deacons - without a view to the image of the full Church, with its ministerial and sacramental life intact.
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2019, 03:14:44 PM »
I doubt the Episcopal Assembly in the USA is foremost in the mind of the EP.

No but refusing to accept the OCAs status as an autocephalous church is. Granted the OCA does have issues but the Abp doing this means he feels the EPs stance is unwarranted. 

Our Archbishop has found himself often in a position where he's been defending the Church's (GOA in particular, US Orthodox churches in general) work to others.  But it seems to work.  Met. Tikhon concelebrated Sunday of Orthodoxy at the Phanar, and the EP hasn't opposed the EA's work with the OCA as full members (even if not recognized as Autocephalous).  At the Holy & Great Council Abp. Demetrios was explaining the reality of mixed marriages to Georgian and Russian hierarchs who have no domestic principle of such, and of our status as a minority religion in the US.  He's not perfect - none of us are - but I do think he tries to minister genuinely with Christ as his heart, guide, and goal.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2019, 04:30:26 PM »
I hate the devaluation of the Deaconate.  We have so few in the ranks of the clergy that many ascribe to a deficit mindset - we don't have enough priests, so we can't afford to keep just deacons - without a view to the image of the full Church, with its ministerial and sacramental life intact.

I agree entirely on this point.  St. George the Great Martyr OCA is blessed with a full time deacon of Antiochian extraction, and he held that parish together and played a key role in organizing services, largely using borrowed Romanian hieromonks from an OCA-Romanian monastery which exists mainly as a base for mission priests in Southern California.  Now that they have a full time priest once more, their ministry is rendered twice as effective, and their services are twice as good, because they have an ordained deacon to assist in the liturgy, and furthermore, the pastoral care is also twice as good.  I think full ordained deacons have the practical benefit of compounding the effectiveness of parish priests.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2019, 04:36:23 PM »
Yes I was sent a letter stating that I should pay the fee before the baptism "in order to avoid any embarassment." I took that as not baptise my kid. Poir priest had to cover his ignorant parish's arse after I called him complaining. Not really his fault. The GOA is just systematically diseased. My beloved OCA has issues but I think the Greeks take the cake for dysfunctionality.

I wonder how common that is in the GOA. Do they charge just for baptism or for other services (marriage, funerals, house blessings).

An AOCNA parish that I attended for a bit had "Stewardship", which involved tithing and paying a percent of your income. I don't remember if that involved the parish going into your finances. I think some churches do- they visit your home about it and/or look into how much a make a year. My old PCUSA church used to do the house call thing.
I don't know if any OCA parishes do the tithing, charging for services, etc.

My parish (OCA) takes pledges, with no specific 'dues' amount...and no 'inspection' of ones house to see how wealthy one is...that is frankly crude and disrespectful...

Indeed, that’s horrible.  I’ve never heard of an Orthodox Church inspecting members houses to see how wealthy they are.  Any Orthodox priest who pulled a stunt like that ought to get sacked, in my opinion, and again, to my knowledge, the thing Rakovsky is describing is a Calvinista thing (PCUSA/PCA/OPC).  One major reason why would be that no one would want to invite Father to visit and bless their houses after Theophany if this was feared to be some sort of wealth inspection.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2019, 06:54:36 PM »
Yes I was sent a letter stating that I should pay the fee before the baptism "in order to avoid any embarassment." I took that as not baptise my kid. Poir priest had to cover his ignorant parish's arse after I called him complaining. Not really his fault. The GOA is just systematically diseased. My beloved OCA has issues but I think the Greeks take the cake for dysfunctionality.

I wonder how common that is in the GOA. Do they charge just for baptism or for other services (marriage, funerals, house blessings).

An AOCNA parish that I attended for a bit had "Stewardship", which involved tithing and paying a percent of your income. I don't remember if that involved the parish going into your finances. I think some churches do- they visit your home about it and/or look into how much a make a year. My old PCUSA church used to do the house call thing.
I don't know if any OCA parishes do the tithing, charging for services, etc.

My parish (OCA) takes pledges, with no specific 'dues' amount...and no 'inspection' of ones house to see how wealthy one is...that is frankly crude and disrespectful...

Indeed, that’s horrible.  I’ve never heard of an Orthodox Church inspecting members houses to see how wealthy they are.  Any Orthodox priest who pulled a stunt like that ought to get sacked, in my opinion, and again, to my knowledge, the thing Rakovsky is describing is a Calvinista thing (PCUSA/PCA/OPC).  One major reason why would be that no one would want to invite Father to visit and bless their houses after Theophany if this was feared to be some sort of wealth inspection.

My experience with the OPC was that the house call was purely a pastoral visit and had nothing to do with a wealth or house inspection but instead had everything to with at least making a minimal annual effort to see that the sheep of the fold were OK outside the Sunday services.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2019, 06:21:23 AM »
Yes I was sent a letter stating that I should pay the fee before the baptism "in order to avoid any embarassment." I took that as not baptise my kid. Poir priest had to cover his ignorant parish's arse after I called him complaining. Not really his fault. The GOA is just systematically diseased. My beloved OCA has issues but I think the Greeks take the cake for dysfunctionality.

I wonder how common that is in the GOA. Do they charge just for baptism or for other services (marriage, funerals, house blessings).

An AOCNA parish that I attended for a bit had "Stewardship", which involved tithing and paying a percent of your income. I don't remember if that involved the parish going into your finances. I think some churches do- they visit your home about it and/or look into how much a make a year. My old PCUSA church used to do the house call thing.
I don't know if any OCA parishes do the tithing, charging for services, etc.

My parish (OCA) takes pledges, with no specific 'dues' amount...and no 'inspection' of ones house to see how wealthy one is...that is frankly crude and disrespectful...

Indeed, that’s horrible.  I’ve never heard of an Orthodox Church inspecting members houses to see how wealthy they are.  Any Orthodox priest who pulled a stunt like that ought to get sacked, in my opinion, and again, to my knowledge, the thing Rakovsky is describing is a Calvinista thing (PCUSA/PCA/OPC).  One major reason why would be that no one would want to invite Father to visit and bless their houses after Theophany if this was feared to be some sort of wealth inspection.

My experience with the OPC was that the house call was purely a pastoral visit and had nothing to do with a wealth or house inspection but instead had everything to with at least making a minimal annual effort to see that the sheep of the fold were OK outside the Sunday services.

That I can’t object to.  However given the takeover of many OPC, PCA and SBC parishes, such as the Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC, by the radical Calvinist “9Marks” movement, with its focus on “Church discipline”, I expect there are many instances where these visits might well become something more sinister.  The website Wartburg Watch has done a superb job compiling instances of abuse from 9Marks and other abusive denominations and psuedo-denominations.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2019, 10:22:51 AM »
Well this probably all goes back to the Geneva consistory and the general Reformed impulse to police everyone's lives.
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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2019, 10:34:15 AM »
Well this probably all goes back to the Geneva consistory and the general Reformed impulse to police everyone's lives.

Indeed, it seems to be a fixation of some Calvinists.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline WPM

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Re: EP-New Hierarchs for USA, UK & Australia
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2019, 10:51:24 AM »
Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .