The Pope of Amerika

[aserb]

Is Pat Robertson the Evangelical Pope of The USA?

That is does he speak for all evangelicals?

Or what is he?

[J]

     Pat Robertson is a Protestant Mullah.  Period.  He publicly called for a man's eradication (Hugo Chavez).  I don't care if Chavez is a socialist.  Robertson has no place issuing fatwahs against anyone.  I'm about to go to Afghanistan to fight the kind of people Robertson wants in power.  Theocratic Zealots.  Protestant and Islamic Fundamentalists have more in common with each other than they're willing to admit, and it bothers me how much power the Fundevangelists in this country are gaining on a daily basis.  It is most certainly not the right way.

[Beavis]

Amen, J.  Another enlightened Military man.  I was in the Navy

[SouthSerb99]

  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ Pat Robertson is a Protestant Mullah.  Period.  He publicly called for a man's eradication (Hugo Chavez).  I don't care if Chavez is a socialist.  Robertson has no place issuing fatwahs against anyone.  I'm about to go to Afghanistan to fight the kind of people Robertson wants in power.  Theocratic Zealots.  Protestant and Islamic Fundamentalists have more in common with each other than they're willing to admit, and it bothers me how much power the Fundevangelists in this country are gaining on a daily basis.  It is most certainly not the right way.

That was just plain brilliant.

[Matthew777]

If anyone deserves to be the Evangelical Pope, it's Billy Graham. I love that guy.

Peace.

[DavidH]

Definitely- Billy Graham is the most solid and respected Protestant leader in our country; perhaps even the world. It says a lot for his commitment to have ministered through the DECADES without the scandal that have hit so many others in this land. I feel I am not even half the Orthodox Christian as he is a good Protestant Christian.
In Christ,
Rd. David

[aserb]

J

 second SouthSerb

DavidH

Billy Graham came from another era that is why he is so weill respected, but how do you respect a leader that makes such outlandish claims throughout his life.

Maybe  Pat R., has been reading too much of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards.

If God were as wrathful as Pat R thinks he is then we all should be fried.

Lord have mercy

[DavidH]

Hello aserb-
  True. Billy Graham is from a time of higher standards and it shows in his manner of living and in his emphases of teaching a life transforming Christianity vs. the saccharine health and wealth gospel crowd. It would be nice to see Billy Graham in that alternate universe where he is actually an Orthodox evangelist to America along the lines of Cyril and Methodius :-)

[JoeS]

Is Pat Robertson the Evangelical Pope of The USA?

That is does he speak for all evangelicals?

Or what is he?

What a shame he is the way he is because he does come out with some very good points but messes them up with triumphalism and just plain silly and hurtful statements. 

JoeS

[BrotherAidan]

Please, please please...
DO NOT make Pat Robertson out to be anything than what he is - an independent religious entrepreneur. Even many mainline Protestants would consider him to be heretical in many of his so-called Chrisitan beliefs and abominable in his political beliefs.

I was embarrassed and ashamed of Robertson when I was a Protestant. He was a cut above Swaggart and Jim and Tammy baker, but that's not saying much. And Benny Hinn has stepped in to rip more poeple off.

If you want to read EXCELLENT Protestant critiques and humorous spoofs of these clowns check out The Wittenbug Door magazine
www.wittenburgdoor.com  Go to the archives and then check out "Losers"

[Matthew777]

What about Fallwell? Is he the Evangelical pope?

Peace.

[Beavis]

No.  He would be the Pope of the KKK.

[JoeS]

Please, please please...
DO NOT make Pat Robertson out to be anything than what he is - an independent religious entrepreneur. Even many mainline Protestants would consider him to be heretical in many of his so-called Chrisitan beliefs and abominable in his political beliefs.

I was embarrassed and ashamed of Robertson when I was a Protestant. He was a cut above Swaggart and Jim and Tammy baker, but that's not saying much. And Benny Hinn has stepped in to rip more poeple off.

If you want to read EXCELLENT Protestant critiques and humorous spoofs of these clowns check out The Wittenbug Door magazine
www.wittenburgdoor.comÂÂ  Go to the archives and then check out "Losers"

Are you saying that Pat Robertson has nothing good to say about anything at anytime? 
Look, we all know that these televangelists are out to make a buck.  I personally dont subscribe to him but at times he makes sense and other times he's full of it.

Im not praising him just saying that occassionally he makes some good points.

[Veniamin]

Im not praising him just saying that occassionally he makes some good points.

That whole thing about blind squirrels at work, I suppose...

[JoeS]

That whole thing about blind squirrels at work, I suppose...

HUH?

[Veniamin]

HUH?

You know, even blind squirrels find an acorn every once in a while?

[JoeS]

You know, even blind squirrels find an acorn every once in a while?

Ahhh, thank you for making it more understanding for this old man.

[aserb]

True. Billy Graham is from a time of higher standards and it shows in his manner of living and in his emphases of teaching a life transforming Christianity vs. the saccharine health and wealth gospel crowd. It would be nice to see Billy Graham in that alternate universe where he is actually an Orthodox evangelist to America along the lines of Cyril and Methodius :-)

DavidH.  Agreed

[Matthew777]

Ummm... Am I no longer allowed to post on this forum?

[aserb]

Any more comments on grand mullah Robertson or shall we close this post and move on?

[BrotherAidan]

To Joe S
Even if PR gets some things right some of the time, that just makes it worse.

Heretics who can sprinkle truth in with their falsehood are all the more dangerous

For example, my conservative Republican/Evangelical/Calvinist sister doesn't watch the 700 Club (thanks be to God) and I would never want her to (she's a Fox news junkie); her faith is FAR MORE SAFE with Sean Hannity than with Pat Robertson!

It's the usual thing; the secular guys do it far better (Hannity/Rush) than the religious guys (Robertson/Falwell); plus they don't confuse the faithful with bad theology; if you disagree politically, you can disagree without dubious religion getting mixed in.

I think the televangelists, by and large (except for Billy Graham) cause way more harm than good and leave all Christians, Orthodox and heterodox, with a HUGE public relations problem when engged in evangelistic dialogue with secular people

[BrotherAidan]

somehow I posted  the same message twice so I deleted the second one

[SouthSerb99]

BA,

Maybe you were just being emphatic! lol 

[aserb]

BA:

So true!

[Beavis]

My dear sons and daughters, Billy Graham is a
freemason

[aserb]

Beavis:

Then your point is?

[Beavis]

Freemasons do a number of silly, un-Christian things like worship "Baphomet".....I do believe there are a number of Church canons barring any Orthodox Christian from taking part in Freemasonry.  aserb: if you are a freemason, I encourage you to speak to your FOC ASAP.

[troy]

My dear sons and daughters, Billy Graham is a
freemason

The only evidence of this I can find online is from wacko independent Baptist-esque sites. On what are you basing this assertment?

[Beavis]

From an autobiography of a man who was previously involved in Freemasonry....can't remember the name of the book, though ......but I have no problem believing it.

[aserb]

I am not a freemason

[J]

Don't get me started of Rush and Hannity or Fox News.  I have one word for those guys.

CHICKENHAWK!

[Bono Vox]

Don't get me started of Rush and Hannity or Fox News.  I have one word for those guys.  CHICKENHAWK

J,
No, no, no........remember, no American political discussions!!

My dear sons and daughters, Billy Graham is a Freemason

UUhhh Beavith,

Sounds like you are obsessed with the freemasons. You should watch National Treasure for all of the Masonic clues.

I guess Billy Graham is part of the new world order (N.W.O 4-LIFE!!)


Bagpiper

[Beavis]

The only evidence of this I can find online is from wacko independent Baptist-esque sites. On what are you basing this assertment?

Well, whatever he may or may not be, he is a Protestant heretic nonetheless.

[sdcheung]

i thought it was that old doddering fool Billy Graham who was the Pope of Amerikkka.

[BrotherAidan]

sdcheung
that is a disrespectful comment and completely out of line
even if you believe him to be a Protestant heretic, as Beavis does (who also is borderline with his disrespectful comments), Billy Graham has conducted himself only with the utmost credibility, ethicality and conscientiousness as a public religious figure. He should be respected for that alone.

No Orthodox person, no matter how at odds with his beliefs, should go chucking flippand, disrespectful comments at him.

Is that the kind of respect you show to older people?

Go to confession.

Many of our bishops are old. Would you refer to them in such a dsirespectful way?
How would you feel if a Protestant referred to one of our elderly bishops as a doddering old fool?

Anyway, the term "fool" is a moral category in the Old Testament. He is someone who behaves as if there is no God, follows the ways of the unrighteous, runs his mouth, is lazy and devises trouble. NOTHING in Dr. Graham's character comes near to this.
So if you were using the term "fool" in its moral sense, rather than its colloquial sense, you have also slandered Billy Graham and owe a public repentance.

[BrotherAidan]

BTW
I am a convert from Protestantism. There was alot that was lacking there, which is why I converted.ÂÂ  But I first found the Lord there.

I for one will NO LONGER tolerate gratuitous Protestant-bashing on these boards.

I will let the former RC's stand up against RC bashing.

But it's unbecoming to Orthodox people to constantly harrangue against the "heterodox."

Stop poisoning these boards and stop showing off your cute, quick, clever one liners and comebacks. (You know who you are)

There are plenty of secular political or sports board you can go to to do that.

Get some counseling people; deal with your issues in confession. Whatever.

Let's get some more edifying discussion going.

Not sweet, mamby-pamby talk. It's okay to disagree and to do so with conviction and vigor and stout arguments. But please, let's cut out the hip, the clever, the cute, the one-liners, the one-upsmanship, the showing off.

[sdcheung]

sdcheung
that is a disrespectful comment and completely out of line
even if you believe him to be a Protestant heretic, as Beavis does (who also is borderline with his disrespectful comments), Billy Graham has conducted himself only with the utmost credibility, ethicality and conscientiousness as a public religious figure. He should be respected for that alone.

No Orthodox person, no matter how at odds with his beliefs, should go chucking flippand, disrespectful comments at him.

Is that the kind of respect you show to older people?

Go to confession.

Many of our bishops are old. Would you refer to them in such a dsirespectful way?
How would you feel if a Protestant referred to one of our elderly bishops as a doddering old fool?

Anyway, the term "fool" is a moral category in the Old Testament. He is someone who behaves as if there is no God, follows the ways of the unrighteous, runs his mouth, is lazy and devises trouble. NOTHING in Dr. Graham's character comes near to this.
So if you were using the term "fool" in its moral sense, rather than its colloquial sense, you have also slandered Billy Graham and owe a public repentance.

Well..this summer I saw him in NYC..he was doddering alright.

[Ebor]

BrotherAidan-  Right On!!

Being polite is not the same as being namby-pamby or saccharine.  But as my grandmother used to say "You catch more flies with honey then with vinegar" (or vitriol)

Cheap shots are easy.  Reasoned thought takes more time and effort.

And disrespect of the elderly is wrong.  Someday (God willling) many here will *be* elderly.  In the line of "Do unto others" will you want to be mocked and rerided in your last years? 

Ebor

[sdcheung]

BrotherAidan-  Right On!!

Being polite is not the same as being namby-pamby or saccharine.  But as my grandmother used to say "You catch more flies with honey then with vinegar" (or vitriol)

Cheap shots are easy.  Reasoned thought takes more time and effort.

And disrespect of the elderly is wrong.  Someday (God willling) many here will *be* elderly.  In the line of "Do unto others" will you want to be mocked and rerided in your last years? 

Ebor

course i do.
I'm a curmudgeon now, and I'll be a curmudgeon till my last days.. but I'll be armed with a nice hard walking stick to bop ppl over the head with if I'm derided.

[DavidH]

Well..this summer I saw him in NYC..he was doddering alright.

   It never ceases to amaze me how we Orthodox will study every minute detail of church history and canon law in order to find the fullness of the True Faith and yet we don't seem to pause for a moment's examination of ourselves when we have offended others. We should never allow our embarrasment at rebuke to outweigh our humility in repentance. I am reminded of the verse in the gospels:  "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Mt. 23:23)
In Christ,
Rd. David
   

[aserb]

BrotherAiden:

sdcheung was rather flip in his comments, that I agree with, but forgive him. This board was originally started concerning Pat Robertson's comment over God being voted outed of Dover,PA; therefore, watch out Dove. Pat Robertson has a TV show and is a public figure in America. This is not his first inane comment, it's one of a long line of inane comments and as a public figure, religious or not, I have every right to call him a wacko. Having rejected the authority of the church (the one true faith, the Orthodox church), whether consciously or unconsciously, he has set himself up a spokesman for God. I cannot abide this in any way shape or form and I plan to speak out against him. He is his own Pope, as a re many evangelical leaders with large  or even small followings. They have a cult of personality and it is wrong.

[odox]

Hello everyone,

Yes, I agree with much that has been said so far.

I often encounter a recurring need within myself to cultivate and practice SOBRIETY when thinking or discussing several topics.

Like humility, sober-mindedness is in really short supply. And when we find it lacking in public figures like Robertson, I think it behooves us not to respond in kind.

If it can be said that a significant portion of Americans consider Robertson to be a divine and his words Divinely-inspired, it just goes to illustrate the lack of discernment they possess. Of course that just encourages me to redouble my prayers for them.

odox

[Beavis]

BrotherAidan:  Please forgive me for being offensive.  It seems like I do that a lot :'(.  I will add, however (not that this is an excuse), that I am a convert from Protestantism myself.  The predication "heresy", though, qualifies a person's beliefs and not their person per se.  It is not meant to be an an hominem.  It is simply an objective observation of a person's beliefs.  People seem to think that labeling someone as a "heretic" translates into a judgment about their personal fate.  It does not.  I don't know if Nestorius is in hell.  I don't know if Arius is in hell.  I don't know if Apollinarius is in hell....and I don't know if Billy Graham will go to hell.  But all these people have deviated from Orthodoxy in one way or another.  That is an objective, empirically verifiable fact.  I used to be a muslim.  But I was wrong when I was a muslim.  I used to be an atheist.  But I was wrong when I was an atheist.  Similarly, I was a Protestant.  But I was just as equally wrong when I was a Protestant.  Billy Graham is a good, righteous, and holy man....more so than I'll ever be.  But he is not part of the True, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  That is a plain fact.

[BrotherAidan]

Aserb
the comment I critiqued was not directed at Pat Robertson, but rather at Billy Graham.
Directed at Billy Graham, it was disrespectful and slanderous.
You have both a right and responsibility to point out the absurd and ridiculous and heretical, I agree.

I take no offence at rigorous, hard-nosed debate and discussion; but flippant "cooler-than-thou" comments I will no longer sit back and accept, especially when they are disrespectful and incorrect.

Critique the independent, self-proclaimed, sectarians and do it with the Bible,the Fathers and Holy Tradition, but don't be flippant or toss out lables or engage in cheap name-calling (and I do not mean that you do that, Aserb; I am still directing my commments to the smug, the hip and the so-very-cool with their so-called "edgy" comments).

BUT, and please PAY ATTENTION here fellow Orthodox. There is a world of difference between the historic Protestant denominations and all of these tiny sects, especially the extreme fundamentalist/dispensationalist types on the one hand and pentecostal/charasmatic/healing/health and wealth gospel types on the other hand.

Most of the protestant critiques I read on these boards apply to the second two groups. Historic Protestant denominations like Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians (the ones struggling with whether to leave their church or continue to try to correct it), Congregationalists and even some Baptists have a stucture, a hierarchy (either bishops or bodies like a legislature), doctrinal standards (even if not always adequately enforced), standards for ordination, and standards for order and organization at the local church level and at the regional and national levels. They would not have a clue as to what most of you are talking about when you critique these other groups, lumping them together with all Protestants.

I know alot of these Protestant denominations at the national level have been infected with a lot of liberalism and modernism, but at the local parish level that is generally not the case.

As Orthodox who have found the True Faith, we can challenge historic Protestants' structure (Presbyterian, Congregational, Baptist) hierarchy (lacking in continual apostolic succession: Lutheran/Anglican/Episcopal); doctrinal standards to the degree that they differ (all of them) from Holy Tradition and the  Ecumenical Councils and the Fathers and their varying understandings of ordination, church order, the sacraments, et al. These can be fruitful, rational, respectful discussions that help them better understand the ancient Faith ( and may some day lead to their converting) and also help us appreciate our doctrines and Tradition better.

Since becoming Orthodox, I have never met or discussed Orthodoxy with a Protestant of this historic type who didn't have the utmost respect for Orthodox worship (especially if they have ever been to a service personally) and Orthodoxy's ancient longevity. In some, I can even detect a hint of envy.

I know there are some sectarian "baiters" that visit these boards. They are nor Protestants so much as sectarians, usually extreme fundamentalist/dispensationalist.

Please learn to distinguish between the two groups. Billy Graham and Pat Robertson would be two individuals who personally demonstrate the differences I have just tried to outline: one a historic Protestant (albeit a Baptist); the other a sectarian (oddly, fundamentalist/dispensational AND charasmatic).

[SouthSerb99]

Billy Graham has conducted himself only with the utmost credibility, ethicality and conscientiousness as a public religious figure. He should be respected for that alone.

I don't know enough about his work to comment, but I can tell you that I've actually seen his son (on Larry King) many years ago, disparage the Serbian Orthodox Church for being "complicit" in "ethnic cleansing".  I generally think, the apple doesn't fall to far from the tree.

No Orthodox person, no matter how at odds with his beliefs, should go chucking flippand, disrespectful comments at him.

I agree.  You can choose to disagree with his opinions or POV, but this can and should be done with respect.

Is that the kind of respect you show to older people?

Again, I think you are correct.  Sometimes, comments here (myself included) get carried away and are unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian.

Many of our bishops are old. Would you refer to them in such a dsirespectful way?
How would you feel if a Protestant referred to one of our elderly bishops as a doddering old fool?

I don't go to any Protestant forums, but I can tell you I've been to a few RC forums that were a lot less respectful than we are here.  We shouldn't however, strive for the lowest common denominator.

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