Author Topic: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification  (Read 3740 times)

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2019, 03:34:54 PM »
And by the way, my point is not that there wouldn't need to be some changes to RC doctrine/praxis in order to facilitate a reconciliation.

My point is that if you go into a negotiation and demand that the *other* party agree to all your demands, while refusing even to consider offering *any* concessions from your side, I guarantee you're gonna lose that negotiation.  8)

(And I can think of at least one thing the Orthodox might put on the table: a moratorium on the use of the word "Western" as a pejorative.  :police: )
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2019, 03:37:41 PM »
We might also gently request that the Orthodox take steps to resolve their *own* internal schisms, before assuming they can heal the external ones.
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2019, 09:09:22 PM »
And by the way, my point is not that there wouldn't need to be some changes to RC doctrine/praxis in order to facilitate a reconciliation.

My point is that if you go into a negotiation and demand that the *other* party agree to all your demands, while refusing even to consider offering *any* concessions from your side, I guarantee you're gonna lose that negotiation.  8)

(And I can think of at least one thing the Orthodox might put on the table: a moratorium on the use of the word "Western" as a pejorative.  :police: )

I would put that on the table even in an inter-Orthodox synod.  Because St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco basically said as much.  Western Christianity is not the problem and the few scholars who have argued otherwise, like Fr. John C. Romanides, I can only say I disagree with entirely and have extremely grave doubts as to the validity of their logic, theological reasoning, the data and sources of data they employed in their work, their professional training, and their methodology.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:11:00 PM by Alpha60 »

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2019, 07:58:41 AM »
My concession is to give up any and all latinizations.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2019, 11:00:23 AM »
We might also gently request that the Orthodox take steps to resolve their *own* internal schisms, before assuming they can heal the external ones.

Well, that might never happen, and indeed, if the EP does become entirely schismatic and the other Patriarchates cut it off, I would rather the other EO Patriarchates entered into a communion with Rome, because the influx of traditionalists into the EP this would cause would potentially repair the Orthodoxy of the EP.  And lest anyone object claiming I am proposing using the Roman church as a pawn to fix an Orthodox-internal problem, I would deny this and also state that even if it was true, the EO have been unwillingly used as pawns by the Catholics and Protestants in the course of Catholic-Protestant issues, and also all of the Orthodox were either exploited or directly persecuted in the Crusades (the only Eastern church which benefitted from the Crusades were the Maronites, and this is probably because the Crusading armies needed access to their forts in the mountains of Lebanon; meanwhile some Pontic Greek Orthodox Christians and some Antiochian Orthodox were eaten alive by cannibalistic Crusaders; we are of course talking about peoples who centuries later due to schisms were the ancestors, in those cases where they were not eaten, of Melkite Catholics as well as Rum Orthodox).

I used to know a chap named Dick Montjoy, who I was not a great fan of, and now that I know the meaning of the last name Montjoy, I have to confess if I ever encounter another individual with such a last name who is particularly unpleasant (Dick Montjoy was not nasty enough to be my enemy; I merely found him a bit annoying, perhaps to my discredit, and I now actively seek to avoid finding people annoying), I might well share with such a person the dark side of the First Crusdade and its adverse impact on Eastern Christians (including the ancestors of the Melkite Catholics and Syriac Catholics).

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2019, 11:05:18 AM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

We, you know, believe in the same God and all. It would be nice if we got along.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2019, 11:17:01 AM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

Because I can find no defect in the faith of Deacon Lance or yourself, or for that matter Gregory diPippo of the New Liturgical Movement and countless other Roman Catholics.  In the theological writings of Pope Benedict XVI, I agree with nearly everything he has to say; he comes as close as any non-Orthodox to having an Orthodox phrenomena; in this respect he is evocative of Anglican divines who I greatly admire such as the Caroline Divines, Archbishop Laud and his protege who wrote the Collect for the 6th Sunday in Advent, whose name escapes me, the Wesleys, Percy Dearmer, and CS Lewis, and is more Orthodox than Rowan Williams, who was psuedo-semi-Orthodox (Dr. Rowan Williams nearly became an Orthodox priest, but instead became an Anglican priest, Archbishop of Wales and later Canterbury, and he also wrote a lot of books, including an interesting book on Arius, but in general these are not as good as the corpus of Pope Benedict XVI; also Rowan Williams stand on the ordination of women is utterly unacceptable).

Which takes us to the next reason why I would prefer restored communion with Rome to having to set up a massive Western Rite church to replace them: my fear is that a future Pope, emboldened by the destructive actions of Pope Francis, will capitulate on homosexuality, the ordination of women and so on.  This would be a disaster for Christendom; it could result in the Orthodox church being the only church in several European countries not to have capitulated, and this in turn could cause us to experience in the diaspora a wave of persecution akin to what has happened “in the old country” under Communism or Islam.  A good way to prevent that would be to seize upon the RC desire for communion with us and offer a restoration of communion conditional upon Rome not only retaining pro-life, anti-homosexual, anti-feminist doctrine, but turning up the volume on these doctrines, by agreeing with the Orthodox on a joint program to identify and depose 100% of clergy who want to change this doctrine, and also to exclude all laity who fall into these camps pending repentance, and to further exclude for 30 years or until the period when they require the last rites, any laity who are judges or legislators who have acted contrary to the Orthodox-Catholic doctrine on these issues.

Excommunicating in one swift stroke every Cafeteria Catholic or Optionally Orthodox politician around the world would send a powerful message, and I believe that with regards to abortion, the Church should canonically penance the politicians who enable it with great severity.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2019, 04:27:59 PM »
I'm Western Rite ...


Offline platypus

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2019, 06:18:08 PM »
We might also gently request that the Orthodox take steps to resolve their *own* internal schisms, before assuming they can heal the external ones.

+1

Of course, I assume those who want a reunion see the Orthodox/Roman schism as an internal schism. Maybe Alpha60 can clarify this for us.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2019, 06:24:38 PM »
My concession is to give up any and all latinizations.

You should change your jurisdiction to Magnanimity U.S., cause that's clearly where you reside.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2019, 06:39:09 PM »
My concession is to give up any and all latinizations.

You should change your jurisdiction to Magnanimity U.S., cause that's clearly where you reside.

Hey, I gave you no authorization to reveal my whereabouts.  Now I will have to move to New York City.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2019, 06:59:11 PM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

We, you know, believe in the same God and all. It would be nice if we got along.

I agree, but you know what? I've been told by other Orthodox that we *don't* believe in the same God, because our doctrines (specifically the Filioque) somehow make "our" God different from "your" God.

That's what I mean, when I say that you can never really pin down what "the Orthodox" believe on any given topic -- there's always that guy that pipes up and says, "Hey, I'M Orthodox and I don't believe that!" :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2019, 07:02:55 PM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

Because I can find no defect in the faith of Deacon Lance or yourself, or for that matter Gregory diPippo of the New Liturgical Movement and countless other Roman Catholics.  In the theological writings of Pope Benedict XVI, I agree with nearly everything he has to say; he comes as close as any non-Orthodox to having an Orthodox phrenomena; in this respect he is evocative of Anglican divines who I greatly admire such as the Caroline Divines, Archbishop Laud and his protege who wrote the Collect for the 6th Sunday in Advent, whose name escapes me, the Wesleys, Percy Dearmer, and CS Lewis, and is more Orthodox than Rowan Williams, who was psuedo-semi-Orthodox (Dr. Rowan Williams nearly became an Orthodox priest, but instead became an Anglican priest, Archbishop of Wales and later Canterbury, and he also wrote a lot of books, including an interesting book on Arius, but in general these are not as good as the corpus of Pope Benedict XVI; also Rowan Williams stand on the ordination of women is utterly unacceptable).

Funny thing is I've recently been reading a lot of Anglican writers -- not just CS Lewis, who of course we're all familiar with, but going back to some of the *original* Anglicans such as Hooker, Andrewes, Jewell et all, and finding myself in agreement with them on more issues than I'd originally thought, esp. on the Papal doctrines.

So the problem with excommunicating "Cafeteria Catholics" as you mentioned is, I may be one of them at this point!!  8)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2019, 08:33:40 PM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

We, you know, believe in the same God and all. It would be nice if we got along.

I agree, but you know what? I've been told by other Orthodox that we *don't* believe in the same God, because our doctrines (specifically the Filioque) somehow make "our" God different from "your" God.

That's what I mean, when I say that you can never really pin down what "the Orthodox" believe on any given topic -- there's always that guy that pipes up and says, "Hey, I'M Orthodox and I don't believe that!" :D
How can you pin something down thats so free.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2019, 11:05:41 PM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

Because I can find no defect in the faith of Deacon Lance or yourself, or for that matter Gregory diPippo of the New Liturgical Movement and countless other Roman Catholics.  In the theological writings of Pope Benedict XVI, I agree with nearly everything he has to say; he comes as close as any non-Orthodox to having an Orthodox phrenomena; in this respect he is evocative of Anglican divines who I greatly admire such as the Caroline Divines, Archbishop Laud and his protege who wrote the Collect for the 6th Sunday in Advent, whose name escapes me, the Wesleys, Percy Dearmer, and CS Lewis, and is more Orthodox than Rowan Williams, who was psuedo-semi-Orthodox (Dr. Rowan Williams nearly became an Orthodox priest, but instead became an Anglican priest, Archbishop of Wales and later Canterbury, and he also wrote a lot of books, including an interesting book on Arius, but in general these are not as good as the corpus of Pope Benedict XVI; also Rowan Williams stand on the ordination of women is utterly unacceptable).

Funny thing is I've recently been reading a lot of Anglican writers -- not just CS Lewis, who of course we're all familiar with, but going back to some of the *original* Anglicans such as Hooker, Andrewes, Jewell et all, and finding myself in agreement with them on more issues than I'd originally thought, esp. on the Papal doctrines.

So the problem with excommunicating "Cafeteria Catholics" as you mentioned is, I may be one of them at this point!!  8)

Hooker, Andrewes, Jewell and so on were all High Church Anglicans and direct forerunners of the Anglo-Catholic movement, and several of them were into Orthodoxy and wanted the Anglican church to be Orthodox.

Rather, the mass excommunication of Catholics and Orthodox I envisage would entail two groups: heretical clergy, who teach contrary to the church on critical issues like abortion, homosexuality, the ordination of women, the deity of Jesus Christ, and so forth, and laity in positions of political power who advance the abortion agenda, or the homosexual agenda (for example, a legislator who introduced a bill promoting abortion, or a judge who persecuted Christians for opposition to homosexuality, would be publically excommunicated and denied entry into any parish by the vergers, ushers or doorkeepers, pending repentance, which in the case of a politician who enabled abortion or euthanasia on a large scale, would, in consistency with the ancient canons, be available only in the event of life-threatening illness or after 30 years or so, unless the penitent made massive public restitution, such as campaigning against the issue and standing outside the nave of the service weeping during services, according to the canons of the ancient church).  Also persons in the media who agitate contrary to the faith.

I don’t see the need for such a program to extend to the laity because the laity who are not in civil, journalistic or ecclesiastical authority are sheep to be fed, and not sheep to be starved or driven off needlessly.  You can’t hold them responsible for the moral failures of society.  Indeed I think a complete amnesty for people who have sinned in this direction would be desirable, in order to bring disaffected groups like women driven by social pressure into having abortions and people who periodically wrestle with, and sometimes lose the fight against, homosexual temptations, back into the safety of the Church.  It is the wolves in sheep’s clothing who preach a false gospel who need to be driven out (Galatians 1:8, et cetera).  Of both churches.  The Orthodox Church alas is unfortunately not devoid of evil pastors.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2019, 11:08:02 PM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

We, you know, believe in the same God and all. It would be nice if we got along.

I agree, but you know what? I've been told by other Orthodox that we *don't* believe in the same God, because our doctrines (specifically the Filioque) somehow make "our" God different from "your" God.

That's what I mean, when I say that you can never really pin down what "the Orthodox" believe on any given topic -- there's always that guy that pipes up and says, "Hey, I'M Orthodox and I don't believe that!" :D

Well this is why we have bishops.  The episcopate in the Orthodox Church can ameliorate errors on the part of misguided clergy and laity.  Conversely, in those rare cases where the bishops are completely wrong, the people can rise up and resist them.  This happened with Iconoclasm and with the Council of Florence.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2019, 11:59:49 PM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

We, you know, believe in the same God and all. It would be nice if we got along.

I agree, but you know what? I've been told by other Orthodox that we *don't* believe in the same God, because our doctrines (specifically the Filioque) somehow make "our" God different from "your" God.

That's what I mean, when I say that you can never really pin down what "the Orthodox" believe on any given topic -- there's always that guy that pipes up and says, "Hey, I'M Orthodox and I don't believe that!" :D

Multitudes of Orthodox are morons. No argument on that.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2019, 12:22:02 AM »
There's no much to change as many of our practices and beliefs are what you used to have.

Then why would you even be remotely interested in any kind of "reunification" with the RC or other Christian churches? Since you're already perfect, you don't need the rest of us.

We, you know, believe in the same God and all. It would be nice if we got along.

I agree, but you know what? I've been told by other Orthodox that we *don't* believe in the same God, because our doctrines (specifically the Filioque) somehow make "our" God different from "your" God.

That's what I mean, when I say that you can never really pin down what "the Orthodox" believe on any given topic -- there's always that guy that pipes up and says, "Hey, I'M Orthodox and I don't believe that!" :D

Multitudes of Orthodox are morons. No argument on that.

Indeed.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2019, 09:38:59 AM »
Alpha, I do think that you have good intentions, but you are a dreamer.
Nothing you described is going to happen, I am afraid one could be not much more off the mark.

Your preconditions will not be accepted.
There will not be a common declaration on women priests, homosexuality and whatnot.
Nobody will excommunicate any persons on your grounds.
There will not be a Western Rite Orthodox church in Europe or the Americas playing any major role.

Call me a pessimist, but my prediction is:

 - things will go down the drain pretty much completely in Europe and the US for both Catholics (sooner) and Orthodox (later)
 - this means that what we call today faithful Catholics/Orthodox will become a ridiculed minority in an increasingly hostile environment
 - we will have our hands full with trying to resist the world and will not have any energy left for talking to one another

I have no idea how extreme it will become, but in the worst (best => Matthew 5,11) case, if Christianity would be really suppressed in earnest,
outward pressure might force Orthodox and Catholics to move towards each other.
We saw that in all kinds of death camps in the 20th century.
Apart from such extreme and undesirable scenarios, I do not expect that anything substantial is going to improve, quite to contrary.


« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:39:52 AM by Lepanto »
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2019, 12:00:36 PM »
I think some people are being too harsh on Alpha. This is a reasonable endeavor and also re-union is so great a goal that it is not going to be accomplished overnight. But baby steps moving us closer and closer to the final goal of full Communion and Concelebration are worth trying. Of course, each side will have different perspectives. But imho it's better to discuss frankly the very many doctrines and practices Catholics and Orthodox already have in common, as well as the few issues still remaining unresolved - and possible steps that can be taken to move closer together - than to place limits on what the grace of God can effect.

I believe something good can come out of the 2025 Council or gathering even if it takes time after the Bishops agree to meet together. It's important for the faithful to pray a great deal to the Holy Trinity, and beseech the Saints and Angels and especially the Mother of God to obtain the grace to re-unite the Churches. The most important thing is that first step - all the Bishops of the Universal Church must agree to convene in common. If they do, open to the grace of the Holy Spirit, I believe everything else will go just fine.

I want to leave aside the Papacy and the Autocephaly issue to be fixed or determined by that Council itself: Even something quite limited like the Primacy upon appeal recognized by the Council of Sardica, approved by Patriarch St. Athanasius of Alexandria, is sufficient to go forward. "For this will seem to be most good and very proper, if to the head, that is to the See of Peter the Apostle, the bishops of the Lord shall refer from all provinces." http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num51.htm In the strictest sense, to Catholics, Papal confirmation is in theory needed for a Bishop to obtain full canonical jurisdiction, but in practice this is dispensed with or easily provided these days.

With Greek Orthodox, there are mainly 3 issues imho (1) Filioque (procession "from the Father through the Son", as a joint Catholic-Orthodox study held, is imho totally acceptable; if anyone believed it, as St. Patriarch Tarasius did at Nicaea II, he or she is already imo almost in Communion with the Catholic Church) (2) Immaculate Conception - or, at least the personal sinlessness of the Mother of God, with the readiness to accept the Immaculate Conception if a Council of the whole Church were to declare it. (3) Purgatory. Much about Purgatory is undefined. All that is insisted on is that a Purgatory exists through which souls are cleansed, as many passages in Scripture suggest, and that the souls detained there can and should be assisted by the prayers and suffrages of the faithful, especially the Holy Mass or Divine Liturgy, as all Tradition teaches. So it's hard for us to see why Purgatory has historically been a stumbling block, when the Greek Church also firmly believes in an intermediate state. Some say the departed go to hell itself, but then some of these departed can be liberated from there. Well, a partial hell from which souls can be liberated is not substantially different from what we call purgatory. If our Greek Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters would agree that some of the souls we pray for in the intermediate state at least can be saved, this difference too is almost entirely overcome. The unleavened/leavened bread controversy is almost universally abandoned. It is a non starter imo and each can very well conform to the respective usage of their Churches.

With Oriental Orthodox, I think it is even simpler (1) Joint acceptance from both sides of some of the common declarations already signed, my personal favorite is the one between His Holiness Patriarch Ignatius Zakka and His Holiness Pope John Paul II http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/speeches/1984/june/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19840623_jp-ii-zakka-i.html especially on the Hypostatic Union, and a joint statement on (2) Mother Mary's sinlessness and (3) Original Sin. For each of these, the Catholic Church will show certain authorities from Scripture and Tradition, and our Oriental Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters can show others or discuss their objections, and things can go forward from there. If a joint statement on these doctrines is signed, I believe Concelebration and joint Communion is possible after that. As good Father Peter and I were discussing on another thread, these are among the last issues remaining imho, beside some misunderstandings. I believe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panachranta_(icon) is almost equivalent to Immaculata.

If Catholic and Orthodox Bishops would agree together just to declare the personal sinlessness of the Mother of God, that would imo be a great step on the road toward full communion, give great glory to God, great honor to His Mother, and rapidly speed the cause of full re-union in God's Good Time.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 12:05:27 PM by Xavier »
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2019, 12:47:41 PM »
Well this is why we have bishops.  The episcopate in the Orthodox Church can ameliorate errors on the part of misguided clergy and laity.  Conversely, in those rare cases where the bishops are completely wrong, the people can rise up and resist them.  This happened with Iconoclasm and with the Council of Florence.

So what happens if the Bishop that the people "rise up and resist" turns out to have been right, and the people turn out to have been wrong (i.e. Arianism)?

Are "the people," then, the guarantors of infallibility in the Orthodox church? I know some who posit that, but having seen mob rule in action, I'm skeptical. Large groups of people can definitely err.
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2019, 12:55:19 PM »
I think some people are being too harsh on Alpha.

Agreed! It is indeed a valiant effort.  8)

But imho it's better to discuss frankly the very many doctrines and practices Catholics and Orthodox already have in common, as well as the few issues still remaining unresolved - and possible steps that can be taken to move closer together - than to place limits on what the grace of God can effect.

The problem is that the "few issues still remaining unresolved" are really just one: the current nature of the Papacy. And that ain't going away anytime soon. After all, the Catholics can legitimately point to the situation between the Russian and the Greek Patriarchs and say, "Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a referee who can make a final call?" (aka the Pope)?  :police:

(While the Orthodox can legitimately point to the current occupant of Peter's Chair and say -- along with an awful lot of Catholics -- "Yeah, but...HIM??" ;D  )

(3) Purgatory. Much about Purgatory is undefined. All that is insisted on is that a Purgatory exists through which souls are cleansed, as many passages in Scripture suggest, and that the souls detained there can and should be assisted by the prayers and suffrages of the faithful, especially the Holy Mass or Divine Liturgy, as all Tradition teaches. So it's hard for us to see why Purgatory has historically been a stumbling block, when the Greek Church also firmly believes in an intermediate state.

The more I read about Purgatory, and how the official description(s) of have changed over the centuries, the more I think the EO -- as well as the Anglicans -- are correct to leave the whole thing undefined. Pray for the dead, certainly, but stop pretending any of us, on this side of the Great Divide, really *know* what's happening with them.

Those are just a couple of points I wanted to highlight. I'm really sorry, but I'm not good at dealing with huge chunks o'text, so if I haven't responded properly to all of your points, well, perhaps try lobbing just one chunk at a time in my direction.  ;)
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2019, 01:46:10 PM »
I believe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panachranta_(icon) is almost equivalent to Immaculata.
I don't believe so. Different meaning of this word, also regarding the icon and we've discussed this a few times on this forum.
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2019, 04:37:35 PM »
I believe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panachranta_(icon) is almost equivalent to Immaculata.

Kind of ironic that when I click the link I get "This page does not exist!" Even the internets proves Catholicism wrong.  :-*
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2019, 02:53:11 AM »
Well this is why we have bishops.  The episcopate in the Orthodox Church can ameliorate errors on the part of misguided clergy and laity.  Conversely, in those rare cases where the bishops are completely wrong, the people can rise up and resist them.  This happened with Iconoclasm and with the Council of Florence.

So what happens if the Bishop that the people "rise up and resist" turns out to have been right, and the people turn out to have been wrong (i.e. Arianism)?

Are "the people," then, the guarantors of infallibility in the Orthodox church? I know some who posit that, but having seen mob rule in action, I'm skeptical. Large groups of people can definitely err.

Matthew 16:18 indicates that the Orthodox Church will always prevail, so this does not concern me.  Furthermore the majority of the Alexandrian laity supported St. Athanasius; this is clear from even a very cursory reading of the history.  There is no proof that a majority of the laity ever supported Arius; he did manage to evangelize his heresy with the assistance of the powers of the prince of the air, but those who belonged to our Lord in truth refused the heresy and did not apostasize, and many who did apostasize later repented of it, in such large numbers that the early church resolved to exercise oikonomia and receive them through confession or chrismation.  And this was 15 years or so before the reign of St. Theodosius, who furthermore did not immediately shut Arianism down (hence St. Ambrose and his most faithful laity having to occupy a church in Milan in order to prevent it from being taken over by the Arians).  It is a J/W-Adventist-Unitarian myth that St. Theodosius killed all the Arians, as is evidenced by the seventh century Arian baptistry in Ravenna; rather the historical and archaeological data suggest that most either converted back to the Nicene faith or else embraced Islam.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2019, 09:01:18 AM »
Quote from: Theistgal
Those are just a couple of points I wanted to highlight. I'm really sorry, but I'm not good at dealing with huge chunks o'text, so if I haven't responded properly to all of your points, well, perhaps try lobbing just one chunk at a time in my direction.  ;)

Hi Theistgal. My fault. Brevity is not really my strength. :) But I'll try.

1. Purgatory: The principal text in Scripture which speaks of being saved by fire is 1 Cor 3:15 " If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Now, when representatives of the Greek and Latin Churches have discussed this, Bishops from both sides have agreed that while some kind of purification goes on, Purgative fire can be understood in various senses. Long ago, Pope Gregory the Great, who in his Dialogues calls belief in Purgatory, constat et credendum, says, "there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away." And that is all really we ask for a common belief in.

One reason Purgatory is important imho is because firm belief in the clear doctrine also has practical effects on how we live our lives; first, it inspires us to do our utmost to relieve the suffering souls there, for e.g. this is how St. Margaret Mary responded after the Sacred Heart spoke to her at length about it, "Writing to Mother de Saumaise she says: "There is a Soul in Purgatory that I cannot comfort as much as I desire. She told me to apply to you and ask you to have three Masses said for her, and, in addition, to offer your Rosary and all the practices of our holy rule for nine days, and a general Communion. She said that these things would greatly alleviate her pains and that she would not be ungrateful." http://catholictradition.org/Two-Hearts/devotion12.htm Can anyone really object to increased zeal and great fervor to relieve the lot of souls in the intermediate state? If not, then a common definition - at least on those same Gregorian terms, from an authority venerated as one of great learning and holiness, in both the Greek and Latin Churches - is reasonable and can be sought. And second, it inspires us to avoid even those slight faults to ourselves avoid Purgatory. Would you disagree, Theistgal?

I agree there is some benefit in leaving more complicated things undefined, where Scripture gives no direct guidance. But if we leave too much defined, we risk losing all sense of urgency in assisting the Poor Souls imho. Some may disagree with me of course.

Regarding the Papacy, Pope Benedict XVI said, "When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more." I think it will work out if the Popes, Patriarchs and Bishops all get together to discuss it, and we join them in prayer. :)

Quote from: Alpo

Kind of ironic that when I click the link I get "This page does not exist!" Even the internets proves Catholicism wrong.  :-*

Oops! It takes me to a "did you mean" page? and the closing bracket is missing - someone else may know better, but I think you've to click on the first link or add the bracket at the end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panachranta_(icon) I think that would work.

Dominika, can you or anyone who knows Greek explain if this is accurate: "Panachranta (from Greek: πανάχραντος "all-immaculate") is a type of icon in the Eastern Orthodox Church, that refers to the all immaculate Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.[1]" If not, what does Panachranta mean? Is it something like Most-Pure, otherwise? God bless.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 09:03:29 AM by Xavier »
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2019, 02:40:01 PM »
Hi Theistgal. My fault. Brevity is not really my strength. :) But I'll try.

No problem!  8)

1. Purgatory: The principal text in Scripture which speaks of being saved by fire is 1 Cor 3:15 " If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Now, when representatives of the Greek and Latin Churches have discussed this, Bishops from both sides have agreed that while some kind of purification goes on, Purgative fire can be understood in various senses. Long ago, Pope Gregory the Great, who in his Dialogues calls belief in Purgatory, constat et credendum, says, "there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away." And that is all really we ask for a common belief in.

Yes, but you're not going to get it as long as you use that little word "purged" which sounds too much like that *other* word that the EO hate soooo much.  ;D

One reason Purgatory is important imho is because firm belief in the clear doctrine also has practical effects on how we live our lives; first, it inspires us to do our utmost to relieve the suffering souls there, for e.g. this is how St. Margaret Mary responded after the Sacred Heart spoke to her at length about it, "Writing to Mother de Saumaise she says: "There is a Soul in Purgatory that I cannot comfort as much as I desire. She told me to apply to you and ask you to have three Masses said for her, and, in addition, to offer your Rosary and all the practices of our holy rule for nine days, and a general Communion. She said that these things would greatly alleviate her pains and that she would not be ungrateful." http://catholictradition.org/Two-Hearts/devotion12.htm Can anyone really object to increased zeal and great fervor to relieve the lot of souls in the intermediate state? If not, then a common definition - at least on those same Gregorian terms, from an authority venerated as one of great learning and holiness, in both the Greek and Latin Churches - is reasonable and can be sought. And second, it inspires us to avoid even those slight faults to ourselves avoid Purgatory. Would you disagree, Theistgal?

Yes, for many reasons. 1) I've developed a real antipathy for St. Margaret Mary Alacoque over the years; do not consider her visions as authoritative in any way; and no longer follow any aspect of the Sacred Heart devotion. (One of the many things that makes me a bad Catholic.)  :police:

But more importantly: 2) Based on the Scripture verse you quoted above, I don't think *any* of us are going to avoid that cleansing fire or the pains therein. *Every* person is going to go through it. And since even "the just man falls 7 times a day," we are *all* going to experience the pain of knowing that we have "fallen short of the glory of God." Of course, we should strive to be "perfect, even as He is perfect," but remember that we won't be, till He makes us so.

I agree there is some benefit in leaving more complicated things undefined, where Scripture gives no direct guidance. But if we leave too much defined, we risk losing all sense of urgency in assisting the Poor Souls imho. Some may disagree with me of course.

Yeah, I'm one of them. I think our trial at the fearsome judgment seat of Christ is swift and decisive, and no one is going to be left languishing in a jail cell because I forgot to say an extra Rosary for them. Some may disagree with me, of course. ;)

Regarding the Papacy, Pope Benedict XVI said, "When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more." I think it will work out if the Popes, Patriarchs and Bishops all get together to discuss it, and we join them in prayer. :)

Would you agree that the "primacy" and the "infallibility" of the Pope are two separate issues, and that *both* would need to be dealt with?

(And again -- *all* of the above is IMHO, and *none* carries any charism of infallibility, claimed or actual!  8) )
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 02:40:29 PM by theistgal »
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2019, 06:11:51 AM »
Quote
Yes, but you're not going to get it as long as you use that little word "purged" which sounds too much like that *other* word that the EO hate soooo much.  ;D

Yes, well, we have to agree on common ground first. Between Catholics and Protestants, Scripture at least is common ground. Between Catholics and Orthodox, is at least the teaching of Greek and Latin Fathers for the first 1000 years common ground? Then, we can go further. At the Council of Florence, some of the representatives of the Eastern Churches that were strongly in favor of union said, up till then they had not seen so many testimonies of the Latin Fathers. Now, having seen them, they approved them. Most Orthodox and even Protestant historians don't deny St. Gregory taught Purgatory - see for e.g. this article by a Protestant scholar, trying to explain away the evidence http://www.newmanreader.org/works/times/tract79.html#section1 imo, it makes a good case for Purgatory. e.g.

""St. Gregory the Great writes, that the soul of Paschasius appeared to St. Germanus, and testified to him, that he was freed from the pains of Purgatory for his prayers.

"When the same St. Gregory was abbot of his Monastery, a monk of his, called Justus, now dead, appeared to another monk, called Copiosus, and advertized him, that he had been freed from the torments of Purgatory, by {15} thirty Masses, which Pretiosus, Prefect of the Monastery, by the order of St. Gregory, had said for his soul, as is recounted in his life." Are you aware, theistgal, of the noble Tradition of having 30 Gregorian Masses offered for the souls of the departed? That ancient custom originates from this and is another ancient witness to the Truth of Purgatory. Such instances are numberless in the lives of the Saints. See below.

Quote
"St. Gregory of Tours writes of a holy damsel, called Vitaliana, that she appeared to St. Martin, and told him she had been in Purgatory for a venial sin which she had committed, and that she had been delivered by the prayers of the Saint.

"Peter Damiani writes, that St. Severin appeared to a clergyman, and told him that he had been in Purgatory, for not having said the Divine Service at due hours, and that afterwards GOD had delivered him, and carried him to the company of the blessed.

"St. Bernard writes, that St. Malachy freed his sister from the pains of Purgatory by his prayers; and that the same sister had appeared unto him, begging of him that relief and favour.

"And St. Bernard himself by his intercession freed another, who had suffered a whole year the pains of Purgatory: as William Abbot writes in his life."—Flowers of the Lives of the Saints, p. 830.

I think it is a mistake not to rely on the Saints and what God has told them. I know many modern Catholics do that, but in earlier times, immediately after Sacred Scripture, the writings and the lives of the Saints and anything Our Lord or Our Lady taught them was held in the highest esteem. Do we not consider Tradition, beside Scripture, to be a means through which God gives us knowledge of Him? The more we know God, the more we will love Him. If we chose not to believe what He teaches us through Apostles and through Saints, our love of Him risks growing cold. And then, it will have to be inflamed again in purgatory.  ;D

Quote
But more importantly: 2) Based on the Scripture verse you quoted above, I don't think *any* of us are going to avoid that cleansing fire or the pains therein. *Every* person is going to go through it. And since even "the just man falls 7 times a day," we are *all* going to experience the pain of knowing that we have "fallen short of the glory of God." Of course, we should strive to be "perfect, even as He is perfect," but remember that we won't be, till He makes us so.

In general, yes. For e.g. St. Bernard was one of the only persons to go to Heaven directly on the day he died. Almost all the rest required purification or repentance. But first of all, Baptism remits all sin, and thus those baptized near death (or in some cases, in the lives of the Saints, resurrected and baptized - shortly after which, they slept in the Lord again) will go straight to heaven. Receiving Unction (Annointing of the Sick) and Viaticum or the Last Sacraments is also considered another mark of divine favor by which Providence almost completely purifies the soul; the Good Thief went straight to paradise, having received baptism of blood through gratefully accepted suffering. Finally, Martyrs go straight to heaven, on account of which St. Augustine says, no one prays for martyrs, but we rather ask martyrs to pray for us. But yes, it is very difficult, and that's where God challenges us! Needless to say, Our Blessed Mother, being entirely sinless, was taken directly to Heaven in Body and Crowned there gloriously as Sovereign Queen. God bless.

ETA: Primacy and Infallibility. Yes, of course they are different. But if primacy entails at least the right to convoke Ecumenical Councils on the part of the Primate-Bishop, and the duty of other Bishops to come to Council to discuss matters - as Apostolic Canon 34 seems to imply - then the rest can proceed from there. The Roman Church will show in Council from Scripture and Tradition why we believe as we do.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 06:19:13 AM by Xavier »
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2019, 10:48:55 AM »
Sorry, Xavier, I don't agree with about 85% of what you just posted, and I don't really feel like wading through yet another Big Block O'Text to explain why.

I will mention one thing. You said "St. Bernard was one of the only saints to go directly to Heaven on the day he died."

How do you KNOW that, exactly? 'Cause that sure doesn't sound like something that any human being this side of eternity could *know, " in the sense of, you know, a provable fact.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:54:25 AM by theistgal »
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2019, 11:32:48 AM »
It comes down to whether we choose to trust the Saints or not; both in their sound interpretation of Scripture, and in their supernatural experiences which confirm the Truth. (I trust St. Bernard, but that was an anecdote to confirm how difficult and rare it is to go directly to heaven, unless one lived and died as a Saint.) In the case of Pope St. Gregory, both the one and the other combine to give us solid assurance. The Pope knew Purgatory from the Scriptures and he knew it by experience.
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2019, 12:10:25 PM »
It comes down to whether we choose to trust the Saints or not; both in their sound interpretation of Scripture, and in their supernatural experiences which confirm the Truth. (I trust St. Bernard, but that was an anecdote to confirm how difficult and rare it is to go directly to heaven, unless one lived and died as a Saint.) In the case of Pope St. Gregory, both the one and the other combine to give us solid assurance. The Pope knew Purgatory from the Scriptures and he knew it by experience.

I appreciate your brevity this time!  ;D

Again, sorry to sound skeptical, but how could Pope Gregory know Purgatory by "experience" if it is something we don't experience till after we die?

As for trusting the saints, sure, to a point. But AFAIK none of them are considered infallible, right? Do you, as a devout Catholic, trust St. Thomas of Aquinas when he denied the Immaculate Conception?

And frankly, the more I read about the life and career of another St. Thomas -- St. Thomas More -- and his unrelenting efforts to burn heretics (in contrast to the more humane, yet uncanonized, Cardinal Woolsey), in particular William Tyndale, the less inclined I am to trust anything he said or wrote -- and to see his own (relatively merciful) execution as "poetic justice" (live by the sword, die by the sword).

So perhaps the best policy, with saints as with anyone else, is "trust but verify!"
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 12:12:33 PM by theistgal »
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2019, 02:18:13 AM »
Quote
Again, sorry to sound skeptical, but how could Pope Gregory know Purgatory by "experience" if it is something we don't experience till after we die?

Because the souls of the departed frequently appeared to beg for prayers, as when he instituted the Tradition of 30 Gregorian Masses; as they did also to St. Bernard, St. Benedict, St. Martin, St. Malachy and others. Are we unbelievers in heaven to reject well-documented reports of Saints, Angels, Our Lord or Our Lady, or the faithful still in need of purgation appearing to Saints? The number of Fathers and Saints who testify to such souls coming back to ask for prayer are numerous. We can include St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Therese Liseux, St. Faustina, Saintly Sr. Lucia, Ven. Mary of Agreda, St. Catherine of Genoa and several other Saintly Nuns beside the Fathers who do so also.

"Saint Catherine of Siena, Doctor of the Church and co-patron of Italy, refers to the description of Purgatory given to her by Jesus: “And if you turn to Purgatory, you will find my sweet and priceless Providence toward those little wretched souls that foolishly wasted time, and being now separated from the body, they do not have any more time to be able to merit. For them I have provided, by way of you, of you who are still in the mortal life and have time for them and, by means of almsgiving and the divine office that you have said by my ministers, together with fasting and orations done in a state of grace, you are able to shorten for them the time of penalty, trusting in my mercy. O sweet Providence!’ http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/misc/PHP/purg_sc_siena.pdf

St. Cyprian, St. Caesarius, St. Gregory of Nyssa (though some say he taught all are saved by fire), St. Augustine, St. Isidore, St. Bede and St. Jerome and several others teach the same. From the CE, "There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

So clearly, this isn't a single statement from a single Saint. Do you believe all these Saints were mistaken? Many of the Saints who taught Purgatory are also revered as such in the Greek Church. One objection of Bp. Mark of Ephesus was that there may be some suffering but not necessarily fire in the intermediate state where souls are detained before the final judgment, the text Luk 16:[23] "And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: [24] And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame." was discussed after that.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 02:21:18 AM by Xavier »
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

Offline theistgal

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2019, 10:24:30 AM »
Xavier, the short answer to your last long post is that I'm from Missouri, both literally and figuratively. I need a lot more than "someone claimed a Saint appeared to them in a vision and verified my interpretation of this doctrine."

Also, as I've already stated, I do believe in the "cleansing fire" version of purgatory, and believe we do all have to pass through it. I don't believe in the "help, I'm a prisoner in purgatory and need 5,000 Masses said for me to get out!" version.
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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2019, 11:55:14 AM »
Oops! It takes me to a "did you mean" page? and the closing bracket is missing - someone else may know better, but I think you've to click on the first link or add the bracket at the end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panachranta_(icon) I think that would work.

Dominika, can you or anyone who knows Greek explain if this is accurate: "Panachranta (from Greek: πανάχραντος "all-immaculate") is a type of icon in the Eastern Orthodox Church, that refers to the all immaculate Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.[1]" If not, what does Panachranta mean? Is it something like Most-Pure, otherwise? God bless.

It doesn't work. You have to open wiki, write "Panachranta" and then choose "Panachranta (icon)".
I don't know Greek (well, a very bit of), but I know in Church Slavonic we have term "vseneporochnaya" that sounds "all-immaculate" but as I've said, it had been told you on this forum before, that it's not what you would think.
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,74209.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,73032
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Offline Frank J

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2019, 10:20:30 PM »
Hello I want to add a precondition to the list that no one had thought of and that is what about all the converts from Roman Catholic background? I would rather stay Eastern Christian and not western Christian , you would have take that into account for a reunion of Catholics and Orthodox Christian's to take place. People who are like ran away from the western branch of Christianity.

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2019, 11:18:56 PM »
Hello I want to add a precondition to the list that no one had thought of and that is what about all the converts from Roman Catholic background? I would rather stay Eastern Christian and not western Christian , you would have take that into account for a reunion of Catholics and Orthodox Christian's to take place. People who are like ran away from the western branch of Christianity.
Don't see what would change at all, except you could commune in a Roman Catholic Church if you wanted to.
Wishing to grant pardon for ancient debts, he who cancels the debts of all people came himself and dwelt among those who were estranged from his divine grace; and tearing apart the record of sin, he hears from everyone: Alleluia.

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2019, 11:33:00 PM »
Hello I want to add a precondition to the list that no one had thought of and that is what about all the converts from Roman Catholic background? I would rather stay Eastern Christian and not western Christian , you would have take that into account for a reunion of Catholics and Orthodox Christian's to take place. People who are like ran away from the western branch of Christianity.

How would it affect you any more than Western Orthodoxy already affects you? You'd still be able to be Eastern.
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Frank J

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2019, 09:04:38 AM »
Catholic Church wouldn't except my change from Latin to Eastern Christian when I became Orthodox Christian. One has to have Roman Catholic Pope allow the change from western to Eastern Christian. I wouldn't except that forcing me back into a rite I disagree with in not a position I wouldn't want in my life. I would be forced into the Novus Ordo Church and not allowed to be a member of the Eastern Christian Church. I would have to be guaranteed the right too be Eastern Christian.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 09:13:40 AM by Frank J »

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2019, 11:14:41 AM »
Well, in the highly unlikely event that there is ever anything even remotely resembling a reunion of the Two One True Churches (great phrase I came across in an Anglican blog), I'm sure provisions will be made for you to keep your preferred form of worship. If not, you can always join one of the "True Eastern Orthodox™" schismatic groups that will inevitably result.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 11:15:08 AM by theistgal »
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Offline Frank J

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2019, 12:53:49 PM »
The Roman Catholic Church would have to agree on ending papal infallibility and agree to resort the Nicene creed as it was originally written. There can't be any give on this by the Orthodox Christian Church the Roman Catholic Church would have change its stands on major issues with its religious beliefs. The only thing keeping the Orthodox Christian Church and the Roman Catholic Church from full communion is these major sticking points. Once we get past these issues then the rest will fall into place  on reunion.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 12:56:14 PM by Frank J »

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2019, 02:04:29 PM »
Catholic Church wouldn't except my change from Latin to Eastern Christian when I became Orthodox Christian. One has to have Roman Catholic Pope allow the change from western to Eastern Christian. I wouldn't except that forcing me back into a rite I disagree with in not a position I wouldn't want in my life. I would be forced into the Novus Ordo Church and not allowed to be a member of the Eastern Christian Church. I would have to be guaranteed the right too be Eastern Christian.

This would certainly go without saying as part of the process of ecumenical reconciliation.

Indeed, if you were to join the Catholic Church today, you would be received directly, without Chrismation or any other bureaucracy, and you would be received into the Byzantine Rite; strictly speaking, the Russian Catholic Church would be the most direct place for people joining from ROCOR or the MP to go, but on a practical level I should imagine that any of the Byzantine Rite churches, especially the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches, would be available (whereas someone joining from the Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Antioch, Alexandria or Jerusalem would likely wind up in the Melkite Catholic Church, someone joining from the Coptic Church, in the Coptic Catholic Church, someone joining from the Romanian church, into the Romanian Greek Catholic Church, and so on).

Indeed, to change rites, if you wanted to be a member of the Roman Rite, you actually have to send the request for the change of rite to the Vatican, which will presumably grant it, but that is the required intermediate step.

The Roman Catholic Church would have to agree on ending papal infallibility and agree to resort the Nicene creed as it was originally written. There can't be any give on this by the Orthodox Christian Church the Roman Catholic Church would have change its stands on major issues with its religious beliefs. The only thing keeping the Orthodox Christian Church and the Roman Catholic Church from full communion is these major sticking points. Once we get past these issues then the rest will fall into place  on reunion.

The role of the Pope is really the only bone of contention at this point.  Concerning the filioque, positions have been advanced wherein it would be clarified that the clause referred only to the sending of the Paraclete by the Son on His present mission to us, versus the earlier error in which an implied dual origin of the Spirit existed, and this would likely be satisfactory to both parties.

I am of the opinion that we cannot expect or require the Roman Catholic Church to do anything that it was not doing in the last decades of the tenth century; the schism occurred as a gradual tear beginning in 1054 and concluding with the Fourth Crusade and the very correct rejection of the rather unilateral terms of reconciliation adopted at the Council of Florence following the dissent organized by St. Mark of Ephesus (an event apparently forgotten about by the modern day EP).

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2019, 02:27:25 PM »
Well, in the highly unlikely event that there is ever anything even remotely resembling a reunion of the Two One True Churches (great phrase I came across in an Anglican blog), I'm sure provisions will be made for you to keep your preferred form of worship. If not, you can always join one of the "True Eastern Orthodox™" schismatic groups that will inevitably result.

I am of the view that the RCC should first attempt reunion with the OO and the Assyrians (and not on the absurd terms offered by the Chaldean Patriarch of Babylon two years ago, which outraged the Assyrian Holy Synod); a reunion with the Assyrians should also wait and be contingent upon the envisaged reconciliation between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East).

The EOs, being able to see success in OO-RC reunion and specifically seeing that the RCC did not act in bad faith, would then be more comfortable about reunion.

Conversely, from a pan-Orthodox preference, my desire is reunion between the Eastern and Oriental churches as outlined by Gorgy of theorthodoxchurch.info in his excellent book, The Orthodox Dilemma, and also reunion with the Assyrians, and then work on reunion with Rome.

However, if the schism with Rome has not been repaired by 2054, I would be very unhappy, and if it is not repaired by 2078 or if Rome crosses a red line by capitulating on abortion, the ordination of women, or homosexuality, I would oppose reunion and instead support installing a Western Orthodox Archbishop of Rome, and taking aggressive action to get conservative and traditional parishes and dioceses, and the Eastern Catholic churches, to affiliate with the Orthodox-Catholic Pope.

But I really hope it doesn’t come to that.  As in, I really really really hope it does not come to that; it would be a terrible tragedy if it did.

I should also stress that from my perspective, one major benefit of Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation would be access to, and ideally, co-ownership of, the Vatican City State including its extraterritorial posessions including the Cathedral of St. John Lateran, the Lateran Palace, and the other major basillicas, as well as the Papal retreat.  These facilities, and the Vatican diplomatic service, along with the separate diplomatic service of the Sovereign Military Order of the Knights of Malta, would be extremely useful, especially combined with the excellent charitable organizations and humanitarian relief entities in the Catholic Church.  A combined Catholic-Orthodox Church would represent a very large chunk of the total human population, and would have the resources, including a sovereign state, allowing it to conduct humanitarian interventions and peacemaking diplomatic initiatives on a massive scale.

So frankly I am among the group Metropolitan Kallistos Ware refers to as “filioque doves”, but the one proviso I really desire as part of Orthodox-RC reunion is shared control of the Vatican City States, the Knights of Malta, and their diplomatic services and sovereign status.  And ideally the Holy Mountain in Greece could be elevated to the same status (a reunified Orthodox-Catholic church would be in a much better position than the current EP to request from Greece full sovereignity over Athos; at present, I fear the Greeks would reject such a proposal, with legitimate concerns that Mount Athos might wind up under Turkish control; conversely there are some people in positions of political power in Europe, indeed some in Greece itself, who bristle at the autonomy posessed by the Hagiorites, and who would love to somehow use European legal mechanisms to force the Holy Mountain to be opened to women, and to the general public; in a reunified Orthodox-Catholic church, Mount Athos could become part of the sovereign territory of the Vatican and thus be protected from such interference).

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Eamonomae

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2019, 11:50:08 PM »
 I’ll always be of the opinion of rejecting any attempts for reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church (unless they completely repent and submit themselves to one of the Orthodox communions) until they get their crud together - they fix their liturgical mess, they fix their moral dogmatics, they lower the quantitative amount of sexual abuse cases, and most importantly, they anathematize their anti-Christian Ecumenical doctrines, that identifies the non-Christian deities as “God the Father,” that claims that Christ’s prayer for oneness needs to be fulfilled, and that Proselytism is a great sin in comparison to 60 years of fruitless dialogue.

I mean, the Syriac Orthodox Church has allowed the Charismatic Movement in South America from peer pressure from converts - what will happen to Orthodoxy with pressure from 1 billion heterodox whose moral,  theological, and liturgical dogmatics are in severe opposition to Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 11:55:27 PM by Eamonomae »
Lord have mercy

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2019, 12:01:49 AM »
Also, that the Works of the Old Covenant are still valid and the Jews are still God’s Chosen People as another Anti-Christian theologumenon that is prevalent around Roman Catholicism.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 12:05:17 AM by Eamonomae »
Lord have mercy

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Re: Setting a deadline and preconditions for Orthodox-RC reunification
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2019, 01:44:29 PM »
Quote from: platypus
A Catholic can hold to typical Episcopalian positions on sexual morality

Most of them don't.

That's right. My point was about to the desire to be in communion with Rome despite disagreements. The specifics of the disagreement aren't don't really matter, I just mentioned the disagreements that I'm familiar with out of habit.

And lots of Orthodox don't fast. Please don't act like everyone in this church does everything right.

That's why I prefaced my comments with "a sincere Orthodox parish" just as Alpha60 specified a sincere Novus Ordo parish. My point is that Orthodoxy done properly is different than Catholicism done properly. I don't wish to suggest that Orthodoxy is always practiced correctly; it isn't.

My view is that you are simply overstating the disparity between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  Also, it is common to talk about Roman Catholicism using generalizations from the past, which are no longer applicable to contemporary ecclesiastical conditions.

What generalizations are being used here which no longer apply to the RCC?