Author Topic: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?  (Read 1241 times)

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Offline Ray1

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I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?

Offline hecma925

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2019, 10:58:16 PM »
It will increase, then there will be persecution and martyrdom of all professed Christians; who will be able to withstand? 
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline WPM

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 12:11:39 AM »
Future of Design

Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 12:44:33 AM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?

A continuing steady stream of disgruntled former Anglicans until there are no Anglicans left to disgruntle, the remaineder having merged with the Unitarian Universalist Association.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Luke

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 12:52:56 AM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
Tricky question right now as there is disagreement over the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 01:04:43 AM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?

A continuing steady stream of disgruntled former Anglicans until there are no Anglicans left to disgruntle, the remaineder having merged with the Unitarian Universalist Association.

By the way, lest there is no misunderstanding, the impending demise of Anglicanism breaks my heart; in an ideal world the plans of the Fellowship of Sts. Sergius and Alban and the Anglo Catholics whereby the Episcopal Church USA, and similiar plans by the Non Juring Anglicans and Scottish Episcopalians in the 18th century, to enter into communion with the Church of Russia and the Greek Church as the first Western Orthodox Church, would have come to fruition.  Anglicanism is the only religion other than Orthodoxy where the Divine Office was, in times past, widely observed (with Morning Prayer and the Litany before the Holy Communion service and during the week, and Choral Evensong one of the most popular services; these were equivalent in their attendance to our Orthros and Vespers, but this is now in the past, and relatively few Anglican churches have Evensong or Mattins).

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Ray1

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 01:09:03 AM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?

A continuing steady stream of disgruntled former Anglicans until there are no Anglicans left to disgruntle, the remaineder having merged with the Unitarian Universalist Association.

Umm, I asked about Eastern Orthodoxy, but whatever.

Offline Ray1

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 01:09:52 AM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?

A continuing steady stream of disgruntled former Anglicans until there are no Anglicans left to disgruntle, the remaineder having merged with the Unitarian Universalist Association.

By the way, lest there is no misunderstanding, the impending demise of Anglicanism breaks my heart; in an ideal world the plans of the Fellowship of Sts. Sergius and Alban and the Anglo Catholics whereby the Episcopal Church USA, and similiar plans by the Non Juring Anglicans and Scottish Episcopalians in the 18th century, to enter into communion with the Church of Russia and the Greek Church as the first Western Orthodox Church, would have come to fruition.  Anglicanism is the only religion other than Orthodoxy where the Divine Office was, in times past, widely observed (with Morning Prayer and the Litany before the Holy Communion service and during the week, and Choral Evensong one of the most popular services; these were equivalent in their attendance to our Orthros and Vespers, but this is now in the past, and relatively few Anglican churches have Evensong or Mattins).

We're fine, thanks though.

Offline Ray1

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 01:12:10 AM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
Tricky question right now as there is disagreement over the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

That is right, there is a lot of talk about the EP currently and it doesn't sound good. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada is pretty big and will have to wait and see how things will unfold.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 01:15:50 AM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?

A continuing steady stream of disgruntled former Anglicans until there are no Anglicans left to disgruntle, the remaineder having merged with the Unitarian Universalist Association.

Umm, I asked about Eastern Orthodoxy, but whatever.

I see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy having a lot more “conwertsy” and Western Rite parishes.  Of our converts, about half are former baptists, Calvinists or fundamentalists, and the others are either cradle Anglicans or people like me who passed through Anglicanism on the way here, having been a Methodist (which basically is identical to low church evangelical Anglicanism).

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline biro

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 02:19:48 AM »
The Copts are expanding. They're Oriental Orthodox, but they just built a new church near me.
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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 04:57:32 AM »
The Copts are expanding. They're Oriental Orthodox, but they just built a new church near me.
They're rather immigrants or next immigrant generation, aren't they?
Are they "americanised"? I think OOs are stronger in keeping their languages and identity than EOs in USA, but I may be wrong. But that may be also the reason that they receive less converts?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 08:20:56 AM »
The Copts are expanding. They're Oriental Orthodox, but they just built a new church near me.
They're rather immigrants or next immigrant generation, aren't they?
Are they "americanised"? I think OOs are stronger in keeping their languages and identity than EOs in USA, but I may be wrong. But that may be also the reason that they receive less converts?

Copts receive more converts and at the same time have more organic growth than any of the other OO churches in the US.  They are the only OO church actively evangelizing converts in the US and UK, but the Coptic American population is also in the midst of a blessed baby boom.  The rate at which they reproduce is indeed inspirational and awe inspiring, particularly in this era where you have so many single child, single parent households.  In a Coptic home you are likely to find two parents and five to eight children.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Opus118

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2019, 05:45:39 PM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
What it is now. For entertainment purposes one might unreasonably imagine the US needing its own Imperial Orthodox Church to combat Russia's. Warning the public about such and such gap and getting our own dominoes in the game was quite popular in the last cold war.

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2019, 09:00:07 PM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
What it is now. For entertainment purposes one might unreasonably imagine the US needing its own Imperial Orthodox Church to combat Russia's. Warning the public about such and such gap and getting our own dominoes in the game was quite popular in the last cold war.

LOL.  The Orthodox Gap.  As if we are like ICBMs.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Sethrak

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2019, 09:41:56 PM »
We are worshiping our Lord as we have for couple thousands years ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline Opus118

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2019, 09:58:34 PM »
I'm curious what do you see when you think of the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
What it is now. For entertainment purposes one might unreasonably imagine the US needing its own Imperial Orthodox Church to combat Russia's. Warning the public about such and such gap and getting our own dominoes in the game was quite popular in the last cold war.

LOL.  The Orthodox Gap.  As if we are like ICBMs.
Exactly
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Bob2

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2019, 10:36:42 PM »
I see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy having a lot more “conwertsy” and Western Rite parishes.  Of our converts, about half are former baptists, Calvinists or fundamentalists, and the others are either cradle Anglicans or people like me who passed through Anglicanism on the way here, having been a Methodist (which basically is identical to low church evangelical Anglicanism).
??? What in the world do base this on? The Western Rite is an extreme minority of Orthodox in the US, and the vast majority of Western Rite parishes are struggling communities that can't even support a priest who doesn't have a lay job.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2019, 10:55:25 PM »
I see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy having a lot more “conwertsy” and Western Rite parishes.  Of our converts, about half are former baptists, Calvinists or fundamentalists, and the others are either cradle Anglicans or people like me who passed through Anglicanism on the way here, having been a Methodist (which basically is identical to low church evangelical Anglicanism).
??? What in the world do base this on? The Western Rite is an extreme minority of Orthodox in the US, and the vast majority of Western Rite parishes are struggling communities that can't even support a priest who doesn't have a lay job.

They are growing.  And as our Lord said, “the least shall become the greatest, and the greatest, the least”, which I think will apply to Orthodoxy in America in the future, which will be a predominantly Western Rite or hybridized community, with particularly Byzantine or Oriental cultural customs and other observances far removed from the American experience becoming marginalized.  This is indeed already well underway; compare the worship at an OCA parish with the worship in an Eastern European country for an example of how Americanized even the Byzantine Rite in the US has become.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2019, 11:21:05 PM »
It will grow.
Nothing speaks to the searching man, like witnessing society plunge deeper into depravity and debauchery.


« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 11:21:20 PM by Rubricnigel »

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2019, 11:45:26 PM »
It will fare better than some, but demographic bleed is going to hit hard with the next generation.
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Offline platypus

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2019, 01:54:30 PM »
This is indeed already well underway; compare the worship at an OCA parish with the worship in an Eastern European country for an example of how Americanized even the Byzantine Rite in the US has become.

As someone who has never been to Eastern Europe, I’m curious. What’s the difference?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2019, 08:16:32 PM »
This is indeed already well underway; compare the worship at an OCA parish with the worship in an Eastern European country for an example of how Americanized even the Byzantine Rite in the US has become.

As someone who has never been to Eastern Europe, I’m curious. What’s the difference?

The degree to which the Typikon is followed, use of the vernacular (vs. pervasive Church Slavonic or other liturgical languages; in the US only two churches completely abhorr the vernacular, the Armenian and the Ethiopian), the cycle of services, the quality of liturgical music, the frequency of communion (lower in Europe, due to reduced influence of the Kollyvades Brothers), the lack of converts except from atheism in former communist countries (and these are people who probably would have been Orthodox anyway and in many cases were secretly baptised, such as Putin), the size of congregations, diversity of architecture and iconography, singing ability (American choirs are really lagging in this respect probably because European primary schools have much better music programs), a relative lack of congregational singing except in Carpatho-Rusyn-Ruthenian/Lemko parishes that use Prostopinije, or Russian Old Believer and Edinovertsy congregations using an idiomatic form of Znamenny Chant, better vestments, fewer vestments, and so on.

In some respects a heavily Americanized church like the OCA exhibits greater piety; active members of the OCA are likely to communicate and go to confession more frequently, yet in other respects the Europeans and Levantines are ahead, particularly in areas relating to cultural sophistication. And in countries where Orthodoxy is the majority religion or the majority Christian religion, there is going to be a substantial difference in how the church is perceived vs. in a country like the US where it is a relatively obscure minority religion.  So in a country like Georgia, Bulgaria or Romania, or even Egypt, the Patriarch commands national respect.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Dominika

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 08:04:28 AM »
As someone who has never been to Eastern Europe, I’m curious. What’s the difference?

the frequency of communion (lower in Europe, due to reduced influence of the Kollyvades Brothers),
Generally yes, b ut it depends on the parish.

the lack of converts except from atheism in former communist countries
Not true.

a relative lack of congregational singing except in Carpatho-Rusyn-Ruthenian/Lemko parishes that use Prostopinije, or Russian Old Believer and Edinovertsy congregations using an idiomatic form of Znamenny Chant,
Except for pilgrimages. And paraliturgical songs, especially carols.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2019, 11:54:39 AM »
As someone who has never been to Eastern Europe, I’m curious. What’s the difference?

the frequency of communion (lower in Europe, due to reduced influence of the Kollyvades Brothers),
Generally yes, b ut it depends on the parish.

the lack of converts except from atheism in former communist countries
Not true.

a relative lack of congregational singing except in Carpatho-Rusyn-Ruthenian/Lemko parishes that use Prostopinije, or Russian Old Believer and Edinovertsy congregations using an idiomatic form of Znamenny Chant,
Except for pilgrimages. And paraliturgical songs, especially carols.

Allow me to clarify: I was generalizing; the case of the Polish Orthodox Church is obviously an exception.  But on the whole, if you look at Russia, or Georgia, or other SSRs, you see conversion to Orthodoxy primarily from persons who were unchurched during the Soviet period and in the years following.  So, for example, there are many more Russian Orthodox now than there were in, say, 2005.  However, mass conversions of other religions, like Protestants or Roman Catholics, are not happening; the Latin Rite Catholics in particular seem to be digging in, and meanwhile, heretical or heterodox cults like Adventists, Mormons, Hare Krishnas, Georgian Evangelical Baptists, et cetera, have also managed to create disturbingly large flocks.  Nowhere near as large as the Orthodox, but one Jehovah’s Witness in a given country is one too many.  Also conversions from Islam do not appear to be happening, nor have I heard of any conversions of Russia’s surprisingly large Buddhist population.  We also have the unpleasant cult of Rodnovery.  Meanwhile, I think some indigenous Russian Christian denominations of a heterodox nature like the Molokans and Doukhobors are entirely extinct within Russia, but I have not been able to verify this (we do however know that Armenian Paulicianism is at least ostensibly extinct and has been since the 19th century, and crypto-Paulicians might well have died off due to the Genocide, unless they exist among the ostensibly Orthodox Paulician diaspora in Bulgaria and Romania, which would be remarkable in that it would mean they had also survived state atheism, but Gnostics were historically good at hiding.  I also wonder if there might be any crypto-Bogomils in Bosnia or Bulgaria).

Regarding congregational singing, you are of course quite correct, which is why I qualified my statement with “relative.”   There is a relative lack of congregational singing outside of the Russian Old Believer/Old Orthodox and Ruthenian Prostopinije-singing communities, but you will find congregational singing even in some Orthodox parishes, in addition to the extra-liturgical contexts you mentioned.

On this point I would also note I have seen a fair amount of congregational singing in Coptic and Syriac parishes in the US and I assume this also exists in the Old Country, since the liturgical hymns that tend to be sung are simple, easy, and well known, and in the US Coptic priests even encourage congregational singing by chanting only three out of four verses of a common hymn, leaving the congregation to chant the other verse.  Tasbeha is also pretty easy to sing, probably easier than Znamenny Chant.

However, in the US, in the case of the OCA and the AOCNA, there is a lot of congregational singing, and this is in addition to the use of Prostopinije by ACROD and the Ruthenian Greek Catholics.  I would also lament to observe most of the OCA congregational singing I have heard is not particularly good; there are some simple Arabic hymns I have heard sung in Antiochian parishes which are much better.  And of course we also have the Western Rite, which is predominantly the result of Anglo-Catholic conversions to Orthodoxy due to dissatisfaction with the Episcopal Church or the Anglican Church of Canada, and even high church Anglicanism can make room for congregational singing.

I hope this clarifies my post.  God bless you.  :)

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Dominika

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Re: How do you see the future of Eastern Orthodoxy in North America?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2019, 11:33:33 AM »
^^ Don't forget about Czechia and Slovakia.
Sometimes Romania is put in "Eastern European" countries too (only some part of it is in Balkans).
And Georgia is not Eastern Europe ;) So maybe you should precise "ex SSrs countries" ;)
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

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