Author Topic: I am simply christian  (Read 5068 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2019, 02:53:41 AM »
It is a great shame not to seek to discover other Christians can be saved. The church fathers maybe did not condemn them and I am going to assume they probably can be saved. I seek to discover more the truth
It is acceptable to hold position we don’t know but it is better not to stumble others to seek to accept them. I feel there is no hope for me as I suggested that maybe non baptised Christians can be saved even though I changed my mind and said if they know it is commanded and they refuse to do it there may be no good excuse not to and it is required. How can I trust orthodoxy if when I repent I am still responsible for leading others to be non baptised and therefore maybe not be saved. Would God let me suffer that as a consequence

God may only give the Holy Spirit to those who publicly acknowledge their faith in Christ just as Cornelius house nowadays because the apostles aren’t here to confirm with authority they must be baptised. But it is commanded so they will lose some grace or to be purified of original sin or of old nature and have new nature that can be purified always
God thought it good to test peoples obedience so people have to obey to receive greater grace. They may have the Holy Spirit but not be cleansed of their sins. They can walk in Gods law but not be renewed without baptism in this life
They may not be cleansed of their sin without baptism but they can still follow Gods law with the Holy Spirit. They may be cleansed of their sins in future after death through spiritual water but their cleansing would have come late to get best reward. Therefore the water poured in baptism is not ordinary water but it is Gods water that purifies sin.

There is no going to heaven by avoiding carrying the cross of Christ
Maybe God will forgive that ignorance only for an unbaptised as long as they are willing if God calls them to be baptised with blood as no one can go to heaven without freely choosing the cross if it is Gods will for them on earth. I am not saying they need to be baptised with blood more than others for some may not be and it seems it is unfair that they require it more

That’s how I comfort myself being afraid there is no hope in orthodoxy for me to not be guilty of leading others to hell but I am going to ask my confession father what he would say about me leading others to think maybe they don’t need to be baptised. If there is still hope of salvation for them
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 02:58:46 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2019, 04:06:00 AM »
Note I do not mean we should say we know when we don’t know but to think so yet it is not a fact until we prove so which we should seek to do so. Then it will be more than a hope
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 04:07:03 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2019, 06:26:49 AM »
My confession father believes there is salvation for other Christians but if they want to join our church they have to be baptised in our church. He says they have different ways of doing things.

However there may not be salvation for unbaptised Christians because they may not be sincere in trying to please God and obedient. He said Pentecostals have different ways of doing things but are accepted. I said most are baptised. He said they are accepted. But when I mentioned some are non baptised it seemed maybe he thought they are non Christian I dont know what he thinks
But the problem is Pentecostals though they baptise to be obedient they don’t think such baptism is essential


Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2019, 07:04:56 AM »
It was his opinion maybe not to be shared with the world as he said such topics have to be covered in another appointment not just in short confession.

I think the sacraments either help you prepare to go to heaven especially communion they help the weak but you can still go to heaven without it but you have to struggle more like the monks  or they make you worthy to go to heaven first with high reward. Making you leaders to bring others to Christ by the fruit you bring
God is maybe not limited when He will give communion but will give it to strugglers like He did to st Mary of Egypt but to some they will have it after death. They don’t have life in this life

I don’t know if I did wrong to share his opinion and turn others away from considering the church as best place to have salvation even if it is not the only place.
I guess it is still not a fact as Jesus May mean only those who eat His body are nourished by Him but we may be misunderstanding the breadth of Jesus words and it may include others. He may just mean without communion you won’t be whole and have life here but you can have life later but not be whole

« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 07:14:41 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #139 on: May 27, 2019, 07:50:19 AM »
Please delete last 2 replies as they may not reflect my father of confessions absolute views just an opinion he thinks but is not sure about and delete this. Otherwise edit them out or delete the whole thread. I am also making a follow up post if you delete the thread I can post it in a new thread
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 07:54:27 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #140 on: May 27, 2019, 07:52:05 AM »
I believe now salvation may only be in the apostolic churches as far as we are aware what the fathers taught. Some may think the fathers never condemned denominations of today but they may not be accurate
Tertullian says salvation is attainable by none without baptism and we can say the same for communion. Baptism by desire is perhaps considered a baptism
Catholics say you can be saved outside the church if you don’t know the church is true and you have to join it. But they believe this ignorance perhaps is only excusable if through no fault of their own they can’t find the truth. If they did not believe this I would ask can they be saved preaching heresy
What they believe is similar to what the orthodox believe on orthodoxinfo in the article can the heterodox be saved it says they can be saved because they do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit if they never purposely fight the truth

But should Protestants be regarded as catechumens if they want to join the church even if they never attend services but never do for reason of not wanting to be exclusive

John Chrysostom says you may pray for the dead of orthodox in the mass but you can’t pray for catechumens but you can make alms for them

If Protestants can be saved as catechumens and prayer of the dead they have to have done good in their life so they should be good in case

But I am thinking they are not catechumens

It is just my opinion that perhaps the fathers teach you have to join the church but I could be wrong and Protestants can be saved so they should be good in case.
But one should join the church as it may be required if it is right they must join the church

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #141 on: May 27, 2019, 08:18:27 AM »
It may be true that the judgements of the church fathers were just for the time there was 1 church even the sacraments. So when tertullian says none shall be saved without baptism in the church it is maybe for that time but they may be saved if they are baptised outside the church and some may be excused without it. God may excuse all or few or many now so that some of the sacraments are not absolutely essential but only God can judge who will be excused. They may not be essential now
But it also may be for now
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 08:20:42 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #142 on: May 27, 2019, 08:52:43 AM »
I think I should hold that Protestants miss a lot without the sacraments but they will be saved in the world to come if they are righteous. God is leading them to salvation in His own way
They don’t have forgiveness and salvation now but they have later if they are righteous and follow Christ. God can grant the Holy Spirit to people even without chrismation just as he did Cornelius. I know corenelius was ready to be baptised he was a catechumen but God showed His willingness before he was baptised
But the normal means is in the sacrament of Chrismation


“I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 08:59:34 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #143 on: May 28, 2019, 04:00:28 AM »
I think God understands that it is not fair to insist on the sacraments now if it is to be taken in the church or if you have to judge those who are part of a church without the sacraments even if they believe it and if they think it will lead to stumbling blocks as there are no signs and the church is not strong and there are now not a few outside the church there are many and God respects Protestants work of bringing the gospel to many nations when there are no signs
You can join the church to be sure but I think Protestants are accepted
Before you had to join the church because the church had signs and was able to convince everyone of the nations to join but now there are many Protestants and nations without any signs to help preach the gospel. Signs have ceased and God allowed divisions. Now the church should be more forgiving and the sacraments may not be necessary to obey God’s commandments but they still give life in some way by purification now. I will hold this position even though I know what the church fathers teach but you can join the church to be sure
God does not like stumbling blocks if you have to join the church I think he would like to give a sign to do it as the Jews said what sign will you perform that we may believe and follow you
But you have to follow Christ’s commandments and you only can by being a Christian because you have to be willing to die for Him
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 04:11:20 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #144 on: May 28, 2019, 04:23:59 AM »
You have to be a Christian because you have to point people to Christ as teacher and way. He teaches us to trust in Him and not our works alone to be saved

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #145 on: May 28, 2019, 12:38:41 PM »
The only church fathers that influenced me to believe the sacraments are necessary for all are before any of the church ever split there was only one apostolic church and the church was active with gifts of the Spirit then even miracles.
The sacraments still carry extra graces but without them you can still keep the commandments of God to make you justified but you can’t be purified within and to obtain complete justification in this life
You can keep the commandments sufficiently enough but not as much as those with the sacraments to be saved straight away
Sacraments may not be essential except for those who have no reason why they can’t do it . He who is given more more is required. Only God knows if one born orthodox is excused for not learning about all the sacraments if he is convinced already he only needs Jesus and still truly believes he knows better than those who teach him.
I could be wrong and the sacraments are essential for everyone but I want to teach the hope that I am right in case otherwise I am a stumbling block
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 12:44:07 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #146 on: June 04, 2019, 11:09:00 AM »
Still it is only a guess to say because there are no miracles maybe the church fathers don’t mean you need the sacraments anymore but there is no where stated in the fathers that the church age would end

I don’t know. According to church history it seems they teach you need to join the church and take its sacraments. There is no indication that the church age would end. Still I hope it is wrong and God decides to have mercy despite what the fathers teach maybe also I am ignorant of something but I don’t see that I am it could be there is salvation outside the church so you should hope and be good in case if you won’t join the church but you might have to join the church.I can not say there is definitely salvation outside the church. Unless there perhaps was church fathers in the second century that did not believe the sacraments were necessary but why do we know of none ? The apostolic fathers received the truth it seems from the apostles themselves so they can’t be wrong there would be fathers in the first 3 centuries who probably received the truth also from them and the only ones mentioned taught the sacraments

But is there one true church or are both catholic and orthodox part of the true church.

If I did not know that Cyprian says to pope Stephen pope of Rome that no one sets himself up as universal bishop and compels people to obedience I would think maybe these quotes teach that all churches must submit to the pope. Maybe I am missing something and these quotes need a better answer. Maybe cyprian did not believe in infallibility of the pope at that time but he was wrong because the other fathers did. Or maybe the pope was not infallible but he was able to be but all bishops had to be under him yet teach independently until the church together would all agree even the pope. I don’t know how they decide as there is always 1 who disagrees they must disregard that person if the majority think he is not scriptural but I thought all had to agree.


Unless one can know for sure there is only one true church and which one it is  true church it seems not right to stumble others by leaving those who believe they are part of an apostolic church even if they come to doubt it by you leaving them they may still be part of an apostolic church but you may be stumbling them because if they can not know for sure which is the true church even if they may be a little suspicious to the church they are in they may think it still may be right I would not like to leave for this reason if I do not know for sure but one may switch churches thinking he knows for sure but he is wrong and that should not stumble others

https://www.churchfathers.org/peters-successors

https://www.churchfathers.org/peters-primacy

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #147 on: June 06, 2019, 01:54:30 AM »
I think I will hold that those believers out of the church who are repentant may be saved in the world to come but I don’t know for what then is the fate of unbaptised children who have the ability to know what the church teaches if taught but still may need time to accept it
The church does not pray for those outside of it in the mass but it allows alms for catechumens might they allow for Protestants too ? Does it think private prayer is acceptable and Protestants may  pray for the dead but not offer a mass ? What about the private prayers of Pope Gregory the great for the emperor Trajan ? The problem is I’m not sure I can trust anyone except the apostolic fathers but it is likely some other church fathers are right too but not those who disagree with those who came before them who are more reliable
I don’t know if all such can be saved but they might be
I don’t know if God will give the grace for Protestants to sufficiently please Him to be worthy to be saved in the world to come or give the grace of martyrdom but He might
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 02:01:07 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #148 on: June 06, 2019, 04:08:44 AM »
I am not sure you can be saved without the sacraments of the church but it may be the sacraments just make you whole and not have any punishment in the world to come and you are punished for each sin you don’t confess but you are forgiven in the world to come if you repent imperfectly according to your ability outside the church. You can’t live righteous outside of confession completely so you won’t be whole without confession even if you are forgiven for repenting according to your ability outside of confession and living as righteous as you can. I’m not sure you can be forgiven without the sacraments but you might be.


In the below passage notice the accompanying signs were important to confirm the word. I may argue God wouldn’t demand all the sacraments without it. I don’t know that but maybe

Jesus said the only sin not forgiven in the world to come is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and he was referring to rejecting Him and the work of the Holy Spirit and for them He made signs and let them know by His own mouth the sacraments were the only way  if He taught they were but for those who saw no sign they did not hear that the sacraments are essential from God or miracles that confirm the word. Justice demands that people follow Jesus as He has revealed the way but people may be excused for not following sacraments as it seems not fair. But I don’t know for sure

If the heretics had been sincere in wanting to follow the truth and find it they may have saw the truth or signs but if they were not and their only heresy was they had no sacraments and sincerely did not know it is necessary they may have been saved in the world to come


Mark 16:15-19
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Christ Ascends to God’s Right Hand
(Luke 24:50–53)
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 04:17:07 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #149 on: June 06, 2019, 05:30:25 AM »
without confession you can’t have communion which gives life. Confession is to guide you to repentance and to make you worthy of communion to help you along the path. Maybe you can’t be saved without it or you can’t be made whole having life in this world that is you won’t be fully righteous in this life and whole not meaning you won’t be saved just not as a fully righteous person

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #150 on: June 07, 2019, 05:42:59 AM »
I don’t know if you can have sacraments after death but it may be you can so they also will be raised in the last day. But as it was not wilfully chosen now they lose the fullness but they may come to life that communion gives but not fully

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #151 on: June 07, 2019, 06:40:18 AM »
I don’t know if any can be saved without the church but it could be Protestants are given the sacraments on the last day itself by which they may be brought into communion because there is no work in the grave they won’t have an opportunity to do good works to be saved then as there is only an opportunity now but they will be accepted based on their righteous living they could outside the sacraments which is imperfect but on the last day they will have opportunity to perfect themselves to have communion with God to enter heaven and have life. They won’t be raised first but later all within the last day
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 06:47:23 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #152 on: June 08, 2019, 04:58:27 AM »
I don't know if the above is true. I hope that perhaps after being told they can go to heaven they are put in a place to prepare them to go to heaven. It might not make sense because all those who are told they can go to heaven might go in immediately. Anyway I encourage others to join the church. We only know salvation is in the church.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #153 on: June 17, 2019, 08:27:15 AM »
The only one whose judgement I can not doubt for sure is God which I may not know is certain until the judgement day. The church fathers received their teaching from the apostles and Christ but I am not aware of any fathers writings that will not allow me to hope Protestants may not be saved in the world to come though it is guessing. They say without baptism etc you can not be saved or enter the kingdom but that may mean not saved straight away. They don’t pray for Protestants in mass and they may not qualify as catechumens for alms to be done for them but I am not aware they would have condemned for Protestants if Protestants may not be considered the heretics and schismatics of their day because they are not wilful. Also councils can fail or the Eastern Orthodox would not have condemned oriental orthodox or the oriental orthodox would not have condemned Eastern Orthodox
I can not say the Holy Spirit does not work for Protestants to make them able to obey the commandments of Jesus that are not sacraments. They may not be perfect without the sacraments but sufficiently righteous to be saved in the world to come. They may be born of the Spirit but not born of water if it must be done in the church and have the advantages of the water. But perhaps if you are baptised outside the church it allows one to be saved in the world to come but it doesn’t have the grace in this life that the church has.They may not have the help of the sacraments to have life by which is meant being perfect as required to be to go to heaven when you die but the Holy Spirit still assists them to be righteous but not perfect. It may assist them even to die for the Lord.

Protestants may not go to paradise when they die but they may go to hades because they did not perfectly obey all the commandments such as the sacraments but mercy may be granted to them one day and they may be allowed to enter heaven but they need the sacraments to make them ready later.
But they will lose the reward and perfection of the saints here. They may not have total forgiveness of sins so they suffer loss but they go to heaven

However this is all guessing and a hope they are saved in the world to come it may be as said below that salvation is not attained without baptism that no one at all may ever be saved without baptism


HIPPOLYTUS
“[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation” (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 08:36:44 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #154 on: June 17, 2019, 09:11:07 AM »
If the Holy Spirit may assist them to die for the Lord why can’t they be perfect ?
Maybe they can be perfect as the Lord says be perfect as your Heavenly Father is yet it is a relative perfection not as much change happens inside to be considered ready to enter the kingdom without the sacraments. They can bear fruit and die for the Lord but such changes are not taking place by the full grace of the Holy Spirit in sacraments fully inside only partial grace of the Holy Spirit. The soul is still not united with God without the sacraments

Still I don’t know if it is true there is life outside the sacraments
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 09:12:19 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #155 on: June 18, 2019, 01:54:52 AM »
It says the water of baptism alone extinguishes the fire. It would seem then you may need to be baptised. But that was when there was one church
How do we know God does not consider them baptised nowadays. We don’t know
You may or may not need to be baptised in the church
I think God may have only required it when  He was working with the church with signs for those who saw signs but I can not know for sure. Those considered who refuse baptism are the heretics or schismatics who don’t want to obey God not those who desire to be baptised but won’t because they feel they stumble others but they would have if they lived in the time of the church being strong where they could be catechumens and see proof that they need to be baptised by signs if they sought the truth. Just simply seeking the truth and willing to obey if it is the truth that they need to be baptised God may have provided proof they need to be.
Those who refused baptism are those who didn’t want to go Gods way not those who are unsure. I don’t know for sure and you may need to be baptised in the church. Perhaps those who are not baptised now can not extinguish the fire of hades to avoid hades at all but I don’t think it is reasonable for them to stay in hades even after the judgement if they are good Christians who are righteous. Still I don’t know you may need to be baptised
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 02:02:17 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: I am simply christian
« Reply #156 on: June 18, 2019, 04:10:43 AM »
I think there is something I am maybe  missing. Maybe the truth has been hidden from me because I do not seek enough.  I think the above post if you don’t feel it provides hope is harmful for people who are not strong to combat the deception. I don’t know if you can be saved to continue to stumble others by hurting them by your teaching even if unintentionally but maybe you can atleast but maybe not only if you repent and find the truth because they are responsible to find the truth themselves if it includes all Christian or to accept the church if it is true