Author Topic: The Trap in the Tomos  (Read 403 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Samn!

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 716
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
The Trap in the Tomos
« on: January 11, 2019, 04:13:01 AM »
From here: https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/01/11/the-trap-in-the-tomos/

Quote
As the holy synods of the local Orthodox churches deliberate whether or not accept the Patriarchate of Constantinople’s decision to create an autocephalous church in Ukraine, the character of the text newly-issued tomos may prove decisive in their decisions. While very few, if any, churches appear to be opposed to the idea of an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in principle, they may very well oppose the manner in which it was granted and the document granting it. This is because the tomos, as a canonical document, not only grants autocephaly but attempts to define the very nature of autocephaly and assert Constantinople’s vision of its primatial relationship with the other churches. Orthodox hierarchs must read the document carefully and discerningly in order to identify any traps that may have been laid for them in it. In the absence of a conciliar decision, to accept the tomos is to accept the vision of the Church that Constantinople has articulated within it.
[...]

Offline Mercurius1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2019, 09:36:29 AM »
We..need..an...ecumenical...council..

Seriously, there are many things we seriously need to discuss as a Church that were taken off the table at Crete

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,773
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2019, 10:38:57 AM »
We..need..an...ecumenical...council..

Seriously, there are many things we seriously need to discuss as a Church that were taken off the table at Crete

The Ukraine "issue" was suggested to be discussed, however, the MP refused that it should be included on the agenda for the Crete Council....so, it was removed.  ...and then he did not show up anyway.

It WOULD have been, and SHOULD have been discussed.... however, while everyone is happy to admonish the EP.... they are seemingly blind to the games the MP plays.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Samn!

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 716
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2019, 11:20:55 AM »

The Ukraine "issue" was suggested to be discussed, however, the MP refused that it should be included on the agenda for the Crete Council....so, it was removed.  ...and then he did not show up anyway.


It was never on the agenda for Crete as such and the EP was always very clear that no new items not agreed back in the 70s were ever going to be added.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2019, 11:53:25 AM »
The Ukraine "issue" was suggested to be discussed, however, the MP refused that it should be included on the agenda for the Crete Council.

Do you have any evidence for this assertion? If you do, please share it. If not, have the decency to withdraw it.

As Sam notes, the agenda for the council had been fixed decades ago.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2019, 12:13:45 PM »
From here: https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/01/11/the-trap-in-the-tomos/

Quote
As the holy synods of the local Orthodox churches deliberate whether or not accept the Patriarchate of Constantinople’s decision to create an autocephalous church in Ukraine, the character of the text newly-issued tomos may prove decisive in their decisions. While very few, if any, churches appear to be opposed to the idea of an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in principle, they may very well oppose the manner in which it was granted and the document granting it. This is because the tomos, as a canonical document, not only grants autocephaly but attempts to define the very nature of autocephaly and assert Constantinople’s vision of its primatial relationship with the other churches. Orthodox hierarchs must read the document carefully and discerningly in order to identify any traps that may have been laid for them in it. In the absence of a conciliar decision, to accept the tomos is to accept the vision of the Church that Constantinople has articulated within it.
[...]

Excellent article. Everyone should read it in full. It's impossible to ignore the danger in the increasingly bold statements of Ecumenical Patriarchate about its ultimate authority. Leaving aside the particularities of the Ukrainian situation, these jurisdictional claims have potential to do far more lasting harm. A trap indeed. The only silver lining I see here is that, unlike the Pope, the EP has no actual churchwide mechanism to enforce these claims. We need a council- not just to address Ukraine but to address this new and dangerous ecclesiology.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2019, 12:20:23 PM »
My question would be: What would be the practical steps to convening the council? Assuming the EP refuses to convene it, seeing no need to consult anyone regarding its final and irrevocable decision, I guess Alexandria would be the church to do it. I know a lot of general calls for a council have been made but has anyone specifically called on Alexandria (or anyone else) to convene this council? Are there petitions out there? What is the likelihood of Alexandria actually doing it?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 12:23:38 PM by Iconodule »
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 01:39:50 PM »
Ukrainian perspective on this notion: a position the author selling is being for Ukrainian autocephaly in principle- but be against any practical ways it can be achieved. It's just too convenient for Moscow to be a coincidence. They must have conceded that they can't sell a notion that a Church in Ukraine eternally belongs to a hierarchy in foreign hostile country ( controlled by a hostile government) outside their own borders.

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2019, 01:44:02 PM »
As for 'trqps', the issue is overblown. Sure,  EP tries to push their own positions on canonical order. The text is vague enough, though, that it can be ignored by those so inclined.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2019, 01:46:35 PM »
Ukrainian perspective on this notion: a position the author selling is being for Ukrainian autocephaly in principle- but be against any practical ways it can be achieved. It's just too convenient for Moscow to be a coincidence. They must have conceded that they can't sell a notion that a Church in Ukraine eternally belongs to a hierarchy in foreign hostile country ( controlled by a hostile government) outside their own borders.

Nope, the underlying ecclesial supremacy being pushed by the EP has consistently been the main concern of the Orthodox Synaxis website and of many other critics in the church for years before this Ukraine issue came to a head. But by all means keep pushing the "everyone who disagrees with me is a Kremlin stooge" smear, it's a guaranteed crowd pleaser.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2019, 02:04:09 PM »

Nope, the underlying ecclesial supremacy being pushed by the EP has consistently been the main concern of the Orthodox Synaxis website and of many other critics in the church for years before this Ukraine issue came to a head. But by all means keep pushing the "everyone who disagrees with me is a Kremlin stooge" smear, it's a guaranteed crowd pleaser.

Sorry, it still amounts to the same thing. Besides, it's not like MP was on the EP side of this debate since at least 1940ies (or most likely, for centuries). Let me guess: there should not be higher authority in the Church where Moscow doesn't hold veto power?

Offline Samn!

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 716
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 02:12:59 PM »

Nope, the underlying ecclesial supremacy being pushed by the EP has consistently been the main concern of the Orthodox Synaxis website and of many other critics in the church for years before this Ukraine issue came to a head. But by all means keep pushing the "everyone who disagrees with me is a Kremlin stooge" smear, it's a guaranteed crowd pleaser.

Sorry, it still amounts to the same thing. Besides, it's not like MP was on the EP side of this debate since at least 1940ies (or most likely, for centuries). Let me guess: there should not be higher authority in the Church where Moscow doesn't hold veto power?


Are there any aspects to being Ukrainian other than hating Russia and seeing Russia everywhere?

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 02:19:22 PM »
Quote from: Samn!

Are there any aspects to being Ukrainian other than hating Russia and seeing Russia everywhere?
It's just self-preservation.

Am I wrong in anything? MP torpedoed the Crete Council out of the outside chance it decides something they didn't approve. Same principle here.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2019, 02:39:43 PM »

Nope, the underlying ecclesial supremacy being pushed by the EP has consistently been the main concern of the Orthodox Synaxis website and of many other critics in the church for years before this Ukraine issue came to a head. But by all means keep pushing the "everyone who disagrees with me is a Kremlin stooge" smear, it's a guaranteed crowd pleaser.

Sorry, it still amounts to the same thing. Besides, it's not like MP was on the EP side of this debate since at least 1940ies (or most likely, for centuries). Let me guess: there should not be higher authority in the Church where Moscow doesn't hold veto power?

The fact that you simply see this as an EP vs MP thing shows you don't understand it at all.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2019, 02:55:59 PM »
The fact that you simply see this as an EP vs MP thing shows you don't understand it at all.
There is no way to look at it without acknowledging the EP vs MP thing. Way out was the Pan-Orthodox Council. MP made sure it was a bust.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2019, 03:13:46 PM »
The fact that you simply see this as an EP vs MP thing shows you don't understand it at all.
There is no way to look at it without acknowledging the EP vs MP thing. Way out was the Pan-Orthodox Council. MP made sure it was a bust.

1. The Pan-Orthodox Council was little more than a rubberstamp of the pre-approved documents. Substantial discussion and resolution of the EP's new ecclesiology (as with the Ukraine question) would have been forbidden. So I'm not sure how you think the council was a way out since it had no mechanism for addressing the problem- which, by the way, is a problem for all Orthodox Christians and not just Russia.
 
2. The most important factor in the council's failure was the EP + JP vs Antioch thing. And no matter how many times the EP apologists push the conspiracy theory that the MP strongarmed Antioch into pulling out, there remains no evidence that Antioch did it for any other reason than their explicitly stated reason.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 03:31:35 PM »
1. The Pan-Orthodox Council was little more than a rubberstamp of the pre-approved documents. Substantial discussion and resolution of the EP's new ecclesiology (as with the Ukraine question) would have been forbidden. So I'm not sure how you think the council was a way out since it had no mechanism for addressing the problem- which, by the way, is a problem for all Orthodox Christians and not just Russia.
It's a problem for all Orthodox Christians EXCEPT the MP. They like the status quo just fine.
 
2. The most important factor in the council's failure was the EP + JP vs Antioch thing. And no matter how many times the EP apologists push the conspiracy theory that the MP strongarmed Antioch into pulling out, there remains no evidence that Antioch did it for any other reason than their explicitly stated reason.

Well, had Antioch attend, it would still be deemed failure because of absence of the "biggest Church", wouldntit? BTW, "there's no evidence it was Russia" is a darkly humorous meme, especially since the current hostilities in Eastern Ukraine started in 2014. Again, maybe you're right and this time, unlike all the others, it's a convenient coincidence. It's just safer to assume otherwise though.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2019, 03:41:58 PM »
1. The Pan-Orthodox Council was little more than a rubberstamp of the pre-approved documents. Substantial discussion and resolution of the EP's new ecclesiology (as with the Ukraine question) would have been forbidden. So I'm not sure how you think the council was a way out since it had no mechanism for addressing the problem- which, by the way, is a problem for all Orthodox Christians and not just Russia.
It's a problem for all Orthodox Christians EXCEPT the MP. They like the status quo just fine.

Again, the council had no mechanism for addressing the problem. Also the EP's burgeoning assertions of its universal authority are not the status quo- the opposite actually.
 
Quote
2. The most important factor in the council's failure was the EP + JP vs Antioch thing. And no matter how many times the EP apologists push the conspiracy theory that the MP strongarmed Antioch into pulling out, there remains no evidence that Antioch did it for any other reason than their explicitly stated reason.

Well, had Antioch attend, it would still be deemed failure because of absence of the "biggest Church", wouldntit? BTW, "there's no evidence it was Russia" is a darkly humorous meme, especially since the current hostilities in Eastern Ukraine started in 2014. Again, maybe you're right and this time, unlike all the others, it's a convenient coincidence. It's just safer to assume otherwise though.

I know this is hard for a Ukrainian nationalist to grasp, but the entire world does not actually revolve about Moscow and Ukrainians' hatred for Moscow. Or perhaps you're right, and Putin commands an all powerful cabal of KGB wizards and only pure Aryan Ukrainians are strong enough to resist their mind control spells.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2019, 04:01:36 PM »
Again, the council had no mechanism for addressing the problem. Also the EP's burgeoning assertions of its universal authority are not the status quo- the opposite actually.

Well precisely. There's no authority where MP doesn't have a formal or informal veto power - that is the status quo. Which is enormously problematic for everyone - except the MP. The Council was the faintest shadow of some contours of a different status quo, and it failed.
 

I know this is hard for a Ukrainian nationalist to grasp, but the entire world does not actually revolve about Moscow and Ukrainians' hatred for Moscow. Or perhaps you're right, and Putin commands an all powerful cabal of KGB wizards and only pure Aryan Ukrainians are strong enough to resist their mind control spells.
...which is not an actual argument on your part. It's OK.
In this case, Putin didn't have to command a cabal of KGB wizards. He just needed to command the MP. And that, he does.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2019, 04:16:30 PM »
Again, the council had no mechanism for addressing the problem. Also the EP's burgeoning assertions of its universal authority are not the status quo- the opposite actually.

Well precisely. There's no authority where MP doesn't have a formal or informal veto power - that is the status quo. Which is enormously problematic for everyone - except the MP. The Council was the faintest shadow of some contours of a different status quo, and it failed.

All the local churches have "formal or informal" veto power. The MP's power is far from unlimited. Notice how not a single church has followed them so far in breaking communion with the EP, even those who generally agree with them on Ukraine. Putin really needs to shake things up at the KGB mind control department because whatever they're doing isn't working. Meanwhile, the EP is trying to make itself the final and ultimate veto. Ambitious and sleazy as the MP can be, it has never called itself "the beginning of the Orthodox Church."

 
 
Quote

I know this is hard for a Ukrainian nationalist to grasp, but the entire world does not actually revolve about Moscow and Ukrainians' hatred for Moscow. Or perhaps you're right, and Putin commands an all powerful cabal of KGB wizards and only pure Aryan Ukrainians are strong enough to resist their mind control spells.
...which is not an actual argument on your part. It's OK.

How would I bring an actual argument in response to mere snark and conspiracy theories?
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline StanislavU

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2019, 04:33:25 PM »
All the local churches have "formal or informal" veto power. The MP's power is far from unlimited. Notice how not a single church has followed them so far in breaking communion with the EP, even those who generally agree with them on Ukraine. Putin really needs to shake things up at the KGB mind control department because whatever they're doing isn't working.
I noticed. They are losing this game. Have you seen the transcript of MP's talks with EP? Poor Patr. Kirill couldn't believe the usual bravado and manipulations failed to work.

Meanwhile, the EP is trying to make itself the final and ultimate veto. Ambitious and sleazy as the MP can be, it has never called itself "the beginning of the Orthodox Church."
They adhere to the Putinist geopolitics, where Russia has the "sphere of influence" where it's reign is supreme, unconstrained by the rule of law or international community. For someone within the sphere, EP's touch is way, way lighter. Grandiose unenforceable claims don't change much. Also, there are rare instances where an appellate authority beyond the local Synod is clearly desirable - especially when there are Synods throwing Anathemas in politically biased way.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2019, 04:57:37 PM »
Again, the council had no mechanism for addressing the problem. Also the EP's burgeoning assertions of its universal authority are not the status quo- the opposite actually.

Well precisely. There's no authority where MP doesn't have a formal or informal veto power - that is the status quo. Which is enormously problematic for everyone - except the MP. The Council was the faintest shadow of some contours of a different status quo, and it failed.

All the local churches have "formal or informal" veto power. The MP's power is far from unlimited. Notice how not a single church has followed them so far in breaking communion with the EP, even those who generally agree with them on Ukraine. Putin really needs to shake things up at the KGB mind control department because whatever they're doing isn't working. Meanwhile, the EP is trying to make itself the final and ultimate veto. Ambitious and sleazy as the MP can be, it has never called itself "the beginning of the Orthodox Church."
He is just pointing out a fact. Orthodoxy moved east out from his patriarchy into Kiev and then Russia. These political and eccliastcial boundaries are his technically and any shifting in politics.  Will change eccliastcial borders.  Which he is responsible for oversight and administration. No third rome was ever declared. In fact. That part of the world has been contracting since the fall of communism. The same is evident in the Balkans.
 
 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 05:05:22 PM by Tzimis »
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2019, 01:06:27 PM »
Fr. John Cox makes some comparable points in his blog here: https://frjohncox.wordpress.com/2019/01/10/ukrainian-autocephaly-a-vision-of-the-future/
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Samn!

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 716
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2019, 01:27:38 PM »
St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain on Constantinople's right to hear appeals:
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/01/14/st-nicodemus-the-hagiorite-on-constantinoples-right-to-hear-appeals/

(spoiler: it has no such right)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,959
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: The Trap in the Tomos
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2019, 10:36:56 PM »
Thread locked.
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.