Author Topic: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?  (Read 696 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
There was mention in the thread on "EO/OO -- reunion realistic?" about a "Second Agreed Statement between the EO and OO".

What is the actual state of affairs of Official Agreements as well as discussions between EO/OO?

- How many Agreements are already in place?  -- on which issues?
- Are there impasses at present?  -- on which issues?
- In what context are these Agreements being put into place? + Who is participating?
- Is there some kind of "Semi-Ecumenical Council" going on right, as an undercurrent, simply between Byzantines and Oriental Orthodox ?  How long has this been going on?  And where are we with it today, Jan. 2019?  = officially and unofficially?

-- Sv.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 06:48:26 PM »
The information is all on this site. The dialogue started in the last century and has been going on for 50 years or more.

https://orthodoxjointcommission.wordpress.com/
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Mercurius1

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2019, 09:41:10 AM »
The information is all on this site. The dialogue started in the last century and has been going on for 50 years or more.

https://orthodoxjointcommission.wordpress.com/

Why has there been no progression for the last 30 years it seems?

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2019, 02:40:09 PM »
Hold ups on the EO side. I was told by an EO hierarch the problem was laziness, ignorance and fear.

Things started up again in about 2014. There have been quite a few meetings and visits. The Russians have visited Egypt, and the Egyptians have visited Russia, for instance. And there was a visit of monks to Athos.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2019, 02:47:39 PM »
And there was a visit of monks to Athos.

How well were they received?
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,992
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: TUOCOUIA
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2019, 04:42:23 PM »
Hold ups on the EO side. I was told by an EO hierarch the problem was laziness, ignorance and fear.
I think that is an unfair assessment. I have approach you with many of the same quotations that are in that agreement and haven't received a response from you either.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2019, 05:03:37 PM »
I have spoken with pretty much the most senior EO hierarch and that is what he told me.

You are not an Official Dialogue, with all respect, and I do not think that you represent OO well, or the EO position accurately. I have spent the last 25 years in dialogue with EO and in study and writing of these questions. I think I am as well rooted in the issues as anyone in the Coptic Orthodox Church, and the wider Orthodox communions.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2019, 05:13:04 PM »
I have spoken with pretty much the most senior EO hierarch and that is what he told me.

You are not an Official Dialogue, with all respect, and I do not think that you represent OO well, or the EO position accurately. I have spent the last 25 years in dialogue with EO and in study and writing of these questions. I think I am as well rooted in the issues as anyone in the Coptic Orthodox Church, and the wider Orthodox communions.
I'm glad you think yourself credible.  That still doesn't change the fact that you are silent when pressed.
I know where I stand and if you can't get passed me. What makes you think you can with a line of bishop's who would probably make me look mundane.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2019, 05:33:40 PM »
I have spoken with pretty much the most senior EO hierarch and that is what he told me.

You are not an Official Dialogue, with all respect, and I do not think that you represent OO well, or the EO position accurately. I have spent the last 25 years in dialogue with EO and in study and writing of these questions. I think I am as well rooted in the issues as anyone in the Coptic Orthodox Church, and the wider Orthodox communions.
I'm glad you think yourself credible.  That still doesn't change the fact that you are silent when pressed.
I know where I stand and if you can't get passed me. What makes you think you can with a line of bishop's who would probably make me look mundane.

Most bishops whom Fr. Peter will encounter are able to formulate coherent, logical statements and also attend to someone else's argument with honesty and clear thinking. That's two big advantages for Fr. Peter talking to these bishops versus you.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2019, 05:45:07 PM »
Please, Tzimis!

Try to put aside your own argumentativeness, and try to learn from those who truly are more knowledgeable and experienced in this.  It is THIS that is the purpose of this thread.
I do not want this to turn into yet another "LOCK".  Let others express and ask what they need to ask and receive answers, please.

--  Thank you.

-- Sv.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 05:55:57 PM »
Please, Tzimis!

Try to put aside your own argumentativeness, and try to learn from those who truly are more knowledgeable and experienced in this.  It is THIS that is the purpose of this thread.
I do not want this to turn into yet another "LOCK".  Let others express and ask what they need to ask and receive answers, please.

--  Thank you.

-- Sv.
Im certainly open to dialog.  I usually like to fast foward to the substance.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 05:57:14 PM »
I have spoken with pretty much the most senior EO hierarch and that is what he told me.

You are not an Official Dialogue, with all respect, and I do not think that you represent OO well, or the EO position accurately. I have spent the last 25 years in dialogue with EO and in study and writing of these questions. I think I am as well rooted in the issues as anyone in the Coptic Orthodox Church, and the wider Orthodox communions.
I'm glad you think yourself credible.  That still doesn't change the fact that you are silent when pressed.
I know where I stand and if you can't get passed me. What makes you think you can with a line of bishop's who would probably make me look mundane.

Most bishops whom Fr. Peter will encounter are able to formulate coherent, logical statements and also attend to someone else's argument with honesty and clear thinking. That's two big advantages for Fr. Peter talking to these bishops versus you.
If you say so.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2019, 05:59:59 PM »
To Father Peter :

In your post touching on the Second Agreement, you mentioned that the OO's will be allowed to use their customary terminology regarding the Two Natures, with the EO agreement that OO concept is in fact the same as EO.  The text brought to us by Fr. George in "Are the Two Natures Distinct", together with your explanations -- show without at doubt that the two sides are in agreement on the Two Natures of Christ.  -- This should be cause for rejoicing, in my view, and not for yet further argument.

From what I read in your link which you provide here, I see that the problems that remain do not concern Christology, but ecclesiology.  This makes sense, because of a very long and disparate history, with many dis-harmonial elements, on political, organizational and human nature levels.
Nevertheless, I am of the conviction that these are secondary issues, given the actual teachings in the New Testament, and the actual precious gift of the Christian Faith passed on directly by the Apostles.  If these secondary issues cannot be easily resolved, or resolved at all, then we are free, each one, to chart a course for ourselves and our families that makes best sense to our own consciences.  This is what I have done.  I also am deeply impressed, whenever I find, on one side or on the other, amazingly similar spiritually significant practices that show in every way:  "Indeed, both are Orthodox !  Glory to God !" 

--
What do you believe should be the main focus from here on ?

--Sv.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2019, 06:17:43 PM »
To Father Peter :

In your post touching on the Second Agreement, you mentioned that the OO's will be allowed to use their customary terminology regarding the Two Natures, with the EO agreement that OO concept is in fact the same as EO.  The text brought to us by Fr. George in "Are the Two Natures Distinct", together with your explanations -- show without at doubt that the two sides are in agreement on the Two Natures of Christ.  -- This should be cause for rejoicing, in my view, and not for yet further argument.

From what I read in your link which you provide here, I see that the problems that remain do not concern Christology, but ecclesiology.  This makes sense, because of a very long and disparate history, with many dis-harmonial elements, on political, organizational and human nature levels.
Nevertheless, I am of the conviction that these are secondary issues, given the actual teachings in the New Testament, and the actual precious gift of the Christian Faith passed on directly by the Apostles.  If these secondary issues cannot be easily resolved, or resolved at all, then we are free, each one, to chart a course for ourselves and our families that makes best sense to our own consciences.  This is what I have done.  I also am deeply impressed, whenever I find, on one side or on the other, amazingly similar spiritually significant practices that show in every way:  "Indeed, both are Orthodox !  Glory to God !" 

--
What do you believe should be the main focus from here on ?

--Sv.
I know this wasn't directed to me but, you are making assumptions.  The agreement is asking the OO to agree to the two energy doctrine of the EO  The Eo are making it palatable by stating the words. "In thought alone".
Can the OO agree . It seems they have but, for the schism to be over all the churches have to agree and a lot are remaining silent on both sides. The way I read it is Monoenergism and Dyoenergism is the main topic of contention.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 06:23:08 PM by Tzimis »
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2019, 06:23:11 PM »
I do see in the various places on the link that it is not a simple EO on one side, OO on the other, but disparate combinations of churches that have had dialogue.  Thus, a greater complexity, which makes sense.

--
I would like to see further on certain things, given the Agreements that exist, and that those of us respecting clergy on both sides accepting what they have discussed and agreed upon.

If this cannot be done freely -- then there is no sense to continue here.

-- Sv.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 06:57:54 PM »
I agree with this...

If any use the expression, “in two natures,” and do not confess that our one Lord Jesus Christ has been revealed in the divinity and in the humanity, so as to designate by that expression a difference of the natures of which an ineffable union is unconfusedly made, a union in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into that of the flesh, nor that of the flesh into that of the Word, for each remained that it was by nature, the union being hypostatic; but shall take the expression with regard to the mystery of Christ in a sense so as to divide the parties, or recognising the two natures in the only Lord Jesus, God the Word made man, does not content himself with taking τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ the difference of the natures which compose him, which difference is not destroyed by the union between them, for one is composed of the two and the two are in one, but shall make use of the number two to divide the natures or to make of them Persons properly so called:  let him be anathema.

Are you able to?

τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ does not mean "in thought alone" but "by contemplation alone". It does not mean the difference is not real but that the union can only be deconstructed τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2019, 07:05:06 PM »
Father Peter:

Has the Diaphysite vs. Miaphysite terminology been dealt with ?  -- Is this no longer an issue ?

{i.e., it is no longer seen as a difference?}


-- Sv.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2019, 07:26:39 PM »
I agree with this...

If any use the expression, “in two natures,” and do not confess that our one Lord Jesus Christ has been revealed in the divinity and in the humanity, so as to designate by that expression a difference of the natures of which an ineffable union is unconfusedly made, a union in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into that of the flesh, nor that of the flesh into that of the Word, for each remained that it was by nature, the union being hypostatic; but shall take the expression with regard to the mystery of Christ in a sense so as to divide the parties, or recognising the two natures in the only Lord Jesus, God the Word made man, does not content himself with taking τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ the difference of the natures which compose him, which difference is not destroyed by the union between them, for one is composed of the two and the two are in one, but shall make use of the number two to divide the natures or to make of them Persons properly so called:  let him be anathema.

Are you able to?

τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ does not mean "in thought alone" but "by contemplation alone". It does not mean the difference is not real but that the union can only be deconstructed τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ.
We aren't creating two persons.  Just pointing out that human nature has an existence and yes the divine nature is the ultimate deciding action.  Does that mean that human energy doesn't exist.  I don't think so. Especially since I pointed out to you that Christs human nature is pre fall. It wasn't made with descent built in. Like ours.
Then take the saints. Does the divine nature takeover.  No. Can't be. God grants purity to the souls of the saints in freedom.
I now know that your church has a different formula.  That doesn't mean that it can't talk nature's.  Your formula is two nature's in one. I don't disagree with that.
Monoenergism is a problem though and it's obvious that you aren't agreeing with the agreed statements.  Think about it. Thats all.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 07:27:39 PM by Tzimis »
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2019, 07:30:46 PM »
Do you agree entirely with the statement I posted though?
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2019, 07:31:21 PM »
We don't believe or teach monergism. It's another thing you misrepresent.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2019, 08:08:21 PM »
We don't believe or teach monergism. It's another thing you misrepresent.
Lets break it down without offence to each other. Agreed?

When i hear that Christ has one will. It could mean different things. In my view it could infringe on human nature.  Now if we both agree that there is no mingling of natures.  How does divinity jump over to human nature.  That's one. So please fill in the blanks.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2019, 12:43:47 AM »
I agree with this...

If any use the expression, “in two natures,” and do not confess that our one Lord Jesus Christ has been revealed in the divinity and in the humanity, so as to designate by that expression a difference of the natures of which an ineffable union is unconfusedly made, a union in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into that of the flesh, nor that of the flesh into that of the Word, for each remained that it was by nature, the union being hypostatic; but shall take the expression with regard to the mystery of Christ in a sense so as to divide the parties, or recognising the two natures in the only Lord Jesus, God the Word made man, does not content himself with taking τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ the difference of the natures which compose him, which difference is not destroyed by the union between them, for one is composed of the two and the two are in one, but shall make use of the number two to divide the natures or to make of them Persons properly so called:  let him be anathema.

Are you able to?

τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ does not mean "in thought alone" but "by contemplation alone". It does not mean the difference is not real but that the union can only be deconstructed τῇ θεωρίᾳ μόνῃ.
I really don't disagree with any of the above. Just curious why you fear deconstructing the natures so much?
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,695
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2019, 04:44:29 PM »
The same reason all Orthodox Christians fear it. The above passage is from the Fifth Ecumenical Council, by the way. It’s nice to know that you don’t “really” disagree with it.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2019, 04:52:49 PM »
Iconodule +100
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2019, 04:58:50 PM »
Oo aren't really deconstructing though they are internalizing before input. There formula is 2 into one not 2 out of one.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 04:59:39 PM by Tzimis »
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2019, 05:25:52 PM »
Why are you now making up formulas to impose on other?

You should reflect on Iconodule's post and reconsider everything you are saying and thinking.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2019, 07:26:26 PM »
Why are you now making up formulas to impose on other?

You should reflect on Iconodule's post and reconsider everything you are saying and thinking.
I stated I agree with the statements from the Joint Commission. Since it leaves no room for monoenergism.  I hope you also agree.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 07:28:24 PM by Tzimis »
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Sethrak

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,892
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Etchmiadzin, Armenia
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2019, 08:34:11 PM »
Tzimis ~ Wat sa mata u ```

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2019, 05:23:04 AM »
I've been supporting and writing about the various Joint Statements for 25 years, so I don't think you have really understood me at all if you think I need to respond to demands to accept the Joint Statements!

And I have written a great deal about Christology, which you could read easily enough.

I will say that my views on the energies are these. Do you agree completely?

"This, then, the theandric energy makes plain that when God became man, that is when He became incarnate, both His human energy was divine, that is deified, and not without part in His divine energy, and His divine energy was not without part in His human energy, but either was observed in conjunction with the other. Now this manner of speaking is called a periphrasis, viz., when one embraces two things in one statement. For just as in the case of the flaming sword we speak of the cut burn as one, and the burnt cut as one, but still hold that the cut and the burn have different energies and different natures, the burn having the nature of fire and the cut the nature of steel, in the same way also when we speak of one theandric energy of Christ, we understand two distinct energies of His two natures, a divine energy belonging to His divinity, and a human energy belonging to His humanity."
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,220
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2019, 09:11:08 AM »
I've been supporting and writing about the various Joint Statements for 25 years, so I don't think you have really understood me at all if you think I need to respond to demands to accept the Joint Statements!

And I have written a great deal about Christology, which you could read easily enough.

I will say that my views on the energies are these. Do you agree completely?

"This, then, the theandric energy makes plain that when God became man, that is when He became incarnate, both His human energy was divine, that is deified, and not without part in His divine energy, and His divine energy was not without part in His human energy, but either was observed in conjunction with the other. Now this manner of speaking is called a periphrasis, viz., when one embraces two things in one statement. For just as in the case of the flaming sword we speak of the cut burn as one, and the burnt cut as one, but still hold that the cut and the burn have different energies and different natures, the burn having the nature of fire and the cut the nature of steel, in the same way also when we speak of one theandric energy of Christ, we understand two distinct energies of His two natures, a divine energy belonging to His divinity, and a human energy belonging to His humanity."
It comes very close but, I'm not liking this part though. In my view Deified, doesn't have to mean divine. Its this crossover that I'm not happy with.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2019, 01:48:14 PM »
Tzimis --

Try to let the discussion continue -- along the lines of already-made AGREEMENTS.

Do not ignore the comments of several people around you who see what you are doing to derail this discussion, which, by the way, I started.
I started it NOT so that you would once again sabotage it.

BEHAVE NOW, PLEASE.  Allow the discussion to continue with your mouth closed and ears open, please.

COPY TO SECTION MODERATOR.

-- Sv.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2019, 02:06:19 PM »
Svetlana, the Lord bless you.

There is more work to be done, but it seems clear from the existing agreements that the same faith is essentially confessed by all. Certainly when I read official formulations of the EO I find agreement when they are understood correctly. This is why I post EO statements with complete agreement.

I have written about how the EO councils can be received by the OO here...

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/can-the-oriental-orthodox-receive-the-eastern-orthodox-councils/

and

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/proposal-towards-oriental-orthodox-receiving-texts-council-constantinople-553-ad/
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Sethrak

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,892
  • Faith: Armenian Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Etchmiadzin, Armenia
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2019, 02:24:43 PM »
Years ago when taking an exam for certification (PSIA - Professional Ski Instructors of America) while on the hill ~ I observed: The two PSIA Examiners who clearly disliked one candidate and having determined he would fail to be certified ~ they began to pressure this professional Ski Teacher to tell/define "The Start of a Turn" did it began when the skier intended to initiate a turn ~ or ~ when actual kinetic energy was expressed in the direction of the intended turn~ asking still further he break up the phases of Intention ~ and Initiation ~ a couple hours of inquisition the candidate begged to leave ~ that he had to catch a plane home ```

Thought becomes ethereal ```

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2019, 02:30:27 PM »
Thank you, Fr. Peter.

It is my feeling also, from your comments in these various discussions as well as the opportunity of comparison with EO texts or concepts, which I have had in my own local discussions with EO here, that, if one gives the chance for understanding and seeing, for all these things, that mutual understanding is possible.

I glanced through your links and will need to go through them in more detail, but I especially appreciate what you wrote in the first one :

"Nevertheless, the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox have been able to produce a Joint Agreement which confesses a mutual confidence that the same Christology has always been held by all. That being so, it must be the case that the later councils of the Eastern Orthodox, and even the most controversial texts such as the Tome of Leo, are all able to be understood in an Orthodox manner. These joint statements have been accepted by the Holy Synods of almost all the Oriental Orthodox churches and therefore represent a formal and official view of the Eastern Orthodox.

This seems to be a moment in history that calls for generous efforts to resolve centuries old disputes. If it is necessary to go that extra mile in the name of truth and love, then such demands must be embraced."

This is what I also wholeheartedly and undoubtedly feel.  -- You are right that the holdups are on the EO side.  Seems like there are a few centuries of gap-mending and bridging yet to be done.
Further, there will be the obvious need for dropping, altogether, the imperialistic agendas, historical, as well as current, in other ways. 

My hope is that this will happen.  My prudence is to remain with "friendliness but wariness" -- till one can be certain that the arrangement will be :  mutually agree -- and let be.

For me, this is the simplification.

I encourage your further work in this, Fr. Peter.  It is amazing, really, that things have come as far as they have.

--
Let's resume questions, etc., that others may have (please, Tzimis, give others a chance this time).

I will restate my earlier question on Diaphysite-Miaphysite :  is this terminology and corresponding issue or difference now worked out ?  The view I kept getting on the EO side was that the Dioscuran view proposes that the Two Natures are mixed, and thus, this was unacceptable in EO Christology.  Others insisted "Mia" means ONE -- we cannot have this . . . etc.

What would be a "worked-out" way of seeing this?

-- Sv.

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2019, 02:38:09 PM »
Addendum --

Without repeating previous explanations on this, I simply need to know if the terminology still holds or is still insisted upon -- or if there has been an agreement on a new terminology, that recognizes that EO/OO both see this the same way?

-- Sv.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,264
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2019, 02:44:19 PM »
The OO have never ever believed that the humanity and divinity are mixed or confused, that would make salvation impossible. We are insistent that the difference between humanity and divinity must be preserved BUT these are united in Christ, the Word of God incarnate and this must be a real unity without division.

There is nothing hugely wrong with any terminology since what matters is always what is meant. I am easily able to understand and appreciate what EO texts mean, even if terminology I do not prefer is used. Equally, those EO who make the effort to understand what OO mean, are also able to cope with other terminology.

Since both the EO and the OO accept the phrase "one incarnate nature of the Word" then this remains the basis for our common faith.

I have written about "one incarnate nature of the Word" here...

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/one-incarnate-nature-word/

You may also be interested in this piece - No, We are not monophysites…

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/no-not-monophysites/
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Re: What Official Agreements between EO and OO are already in place, 2019?
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2019, 03:02:08 PM »
You are right, Fr. Peter.

I have heard from Armenian priests for many years, that the belief is indeed in Two Natures in One Person, and that unity of the Two Natures is important.

It is also true that the most important thing in communicating and understanding -- is to understand what is meant.

It is in this direction that discussions will need to continue.  The 'heart' behind this is key.

-- thank you for the links.

-- Sv.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,220
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
I've been supporting and writing about the various Joint Statements for 25 years, so I don't think you have really understood me at all if you think I need to respond to demands to accept the Joint Statements!

And I have written a great deal about Christology, which you could read easily enough.

I will say that my views on the energies are these. Do you agree completely?

"This, then, the theandric energy makes plain that when God became man, that is when He became incarnate, both His human energy was divine, that is deified, and not without part in His divine energy, and His divine energy was not without part in His human energy, but either was observed in conjunction with the other. Now this manner of speaking is called a periphrasis, viz., when one embraces two things in one statement. For just as in the case of the flaming sword we speak of the cut burn as one, and the burnt cut as one, but still hold that the cut and the burn have different energies and different natures, the burn having the nature of fire and the cut the nature of steel, in the same way also when we speak of one theandric energy of Christ, we understand two distinct energies of His two natures, a divine energy belonging to His divinity, and a human energy belonging to His humanity."
It comes very close but, I'm not liking this part though. In my view Deified, doesn't have to mean divine. Its this crossover that I'm not happy with.

But it is precisely this crossover which is the basis for EO and OO rejection of Nestorianism.  Your position is Christologically closer to Calvinism or to the marginally acceptable but sub-optimal, somewhat ambiguous “broad church” definition developed by Mar Babai to prevent the Nestorians from causing a schism in the Church of the East.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Svetlana

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
  • Faith: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Western Prelacy / formerly EO member
Not sure I'm understanding you, Alpha.  -- or the other post.

What do you mean with 'cross-over', and can you say in simpler words what exactly you are comparing?

--Sv.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,950
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
I've been supporting and writing about the various Joint Statements for 25 years, so I don't think you have really understood me at all if you think I need to respond to demands to accept the Joint Statements!

And I have written a great deal about Christology, which you could read easily enough.

I will say that my views on the energies are these. Do you agree completely?

"This, then, the theandric energy makes plain that when God became man, that is when He became incarnate, both His human energy was divine, that is deified, and not without part in His divine energy, and His divine energy was not without part in His human energy, but either was observed in conjunction with the other. Now this manner of speaking is called a periphrasis, viz., when one embraces two things in one statement. For just as in the case of the flaming sword we speak of the cut burn as one, and the burnt cut as one, but still hold that the cut and the burn have different energies and different natures, the burn having the nature of fire and the cut the nature of steel, in the same way also when we speak of one theandric energy of Christ, we understand two distinct energies of His two natures, a divine energy belonging to His divinity, and a human energy belonging to His humanity."
It comes very close but, I'm not liking this part though. In my view Deified, doesn't have to mean divine. Its this crossover that I'm not happy with.

But it is precisely this crossover which is the basis for EO and OO rejection of Nestorianism.  Your position is Christologically closer to Calvinism or to the marginally acceptable but sub-optimal, somewhat ambiguous “broad church” definition developed by Mar Babai to prevent the Nestorians from causing a schism in the Church of the East.
You are way off. Nestorianism is a duality of persons. We are talking freedom of wills. The crossover of the divine will into human nature is monoenergism and mingling of natures.  A free human will doesn't point towards duality of persons. Christ has a natural will already aligned with the divine will. Hard to understand but true. Ask any EO bishop.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson