Topic: OCA Financial Scandal

[BJohnD]

Oh, I didn't know the Dome was back to publishing... thanks for the info.

Sidebar:  A new issue was posted about a week ago, the first since October.  And there was much rejoicing.  

[Fr. George]

I think I can guess what at least one of the "number of issues facing the life of the Church" is.  

Let's see what they say in the post-meeting period; it will be interesting to read what kind of "official" statements come out of it, or if there are guidelines set for the regular meeting later...

[Anastasios]

What angers me greatly is that Bishop Tikhon calls for Archbishop Job to be suspended, deposed, or retired for his "schismatic behavior" when Archishop Job is tirelessly working for the good of the Church, missionizing, spreading the word, etc.  Bishop Tikhon, on the other hand, seems to be online most of the time.  Makes me angry, to say the least.

Anastasios

[Elisha]

What angers me greatly is that Bishop Tikhon calls for Archbishop Job to be suspended, deposed, or retired for his "schismatic behavior" when Archishop Job is tirelessly working for the good of the Church, missionizing, spreading the word, etc.  Bishop Tikhon, on the other hand, seems to be online most of the time.  Makes me angry, to say the least.

Anastasios

+Tikhon FITZGERALD has said this?  When/where?  That is VERY disappointing.

[Anastasios]

+Tikhon FITZGERALD has said this?  When/where?  That is VERY disappointing.

It's on that ocanews site, in the letter Bp Tikhon (Fitzgerald) wrote to the Metropolitan.

[Elisha]

It's on that ocanews site, in the letter Bp Tikhon (Fitzgerald) wrote to the Metropolitan.

Thanks - I'll check it out.

It is disheartening to think that a call for being financially responsible in your own household - something that has almost NOTHING to do with the faith on theological or dogmatic grounds - is being viewed as "schismatic".  Please.

[BJohnD]

If I understood His Grace's letter and related Web postings correctly, his anger (for lack of a better word) is directed at what he sees as Bishop +Job's "unchurchly" behavior, i.e., taking a non-conciliar approach to the situation.  I may have this wrong, but my basic understanding is that +Job wrote a letter to his flock that said something like, "I tried, but they wouldn't listen to me."  

I don't know who's right here, but that's at least how I understand the situation behind the letter.  Does anyone have more/better info?

[Elisha]

If I understood His Grace's letter and related Web postings correctly, his anger (for lack of a better word) is directed at what he sees as Bishop +Job's "unchurchly" behavior, i.e., taking a non-conciliar approach to the situation.  I may have this wrong, but my basic understanding is that +Job wrote a letter to his flock that said something like, "I tried, but they wouldn't listen to me." ÂÂ

I don't know who's right here, but that's at least how I understand the situation behind the letter.  Does anyone have more/better info?

So he (+Job) should be deposed or something for being untactful.....riiiiiiiight.

And ftr, +Tikhon is MY bishop and I think this is further support that HE should be the one to retire and let his auxiliary +Benjamin take over the diocese.

[GiC]

So he (+Job) should be deposed or something for being untactful.....riiiiiiiight.

That is essentially what the Patriarch of Jerusalem was deposed for...not that I support such a thing, but lack of tact does seem to be sufficient excuse

[Pravoslavbob]

What angers me greatly is that Bishop Tikhon calls for Archbishop Job to be suspended, deposed, or retired for his "schismatic behavior" when Archishop Job is tirelessly working for the good of the Church, missionizing, spreading the word, etc.  Bishop Tikhon, on the other hand, seems to be online most of the time.  Makes me angry, to say the least.

I'm with you on this 100%, Anastasios.  It's absolutley ridiculous.  A very sad situation really....VERY embarrassing for the OCA, but even worse than this, it means that the entire jurisdiction could implode in upon itself if discerning action isn't taken soon by those in a position to do so.....those with influence have to throw off their fear and stand up for the truth.  This culture of blind obediance cannot continue.

[BJohnD]

So he (+Job) should be deposed or something for being untactful.....riiiiiiiight.

And ftr, +Tikhon is MY bishop and I think this is further support that HE should be the one to retire and let his auxiliary +Benjamin take over the diocese.

Like I said, I don't know the whole story.  Sounds like no one here really does.

I'm a member of the same diocese.  From what I've been hearing for the last year or so, your latter sentiment is widely shared!  I have never so much as seen Bishop +Tihkon.  To paraphrase Will Rogers, all I know about His Grace is what I've read on the Internet and heard from friends.  Bishop +Benjamin visited our parish last summer, and my impression was very, very positive.  But +Tihkon is still my diocesan bishop.

BJohnD

[Elisha]

That is essentially what the Patriarch of Jerusalem was deposed for...not that I support such a thing, but lack of tact does seem to be sufficient excuse

I'd say that you're downplaying that situation just a tad.

[Nacho]

Very sad news for the OCA.....Have a feeling something big might happen soon and hope that it's not the Met. trying to depose Archbishop Job for trying to 'clean' house behind the scenes and make those in the 'old boys network' more accountable. My priest last Sunday for the second time has said something to this effect and that if 'those put in the highest places in the church can fall, then all the more it is with the faithful who must pray daily to overcome the power of the demons.' They have already stripped Archbishop Job of his power to ordain priest which is ridiculous, what's next?  The Met. is acting more like the Roman Pontiff than and Orthodox hierarch. What's funny is that Archbishop Job's territory by far has seen the healthiest growth in the OCA by the same priest that the Met. did not want to see ordained. I guess he wants the old school ethnic priest or those trained at St. Vlads that burn out in 5 years or bring some kind of scandal to the church... Yea, we had two like these brought in by the Met. in my area, but thank God we have a good priest for the last 7 years thanks to Archbishop Job. Lets hope unlike the previous Hierarch, that this one will be more forthcoming with the financial scandal at hand.

[GiC]

I'd say that you're downplaying that situation just a tad.

LOL...I'm just saying that everything is steeped in politics first and ecclesiology second, ultimatley just being realistic.

[Anastasios]

So I get home from Church today and Dad says, "well son, I just read about your Church* in the newspaper."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/25/AR2006022501266.html

(* Of course he doesn't know about the administrative divisions in the Orthodox Church, so no, I am not suddenly an OCA member lol).

[JoeS]

So I get home from Church today and Dad says, "well son, I just read about your Church* in the newspaper."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/25/AR2006022501266.html

(* Of course he doesn't know about the administrative divisions in the Orthodox Church, so no, I am not suddenly an OCA member lol).

If your dad is Roman Catholic he will surely understand that it isnt the church but the churchmen who are at fault.

[Anastasios]

If your dad is Roman Catholic he will surely understand that it isnt the church but the churchmen who are at fault.

Nah, he's Lutheran. But yes, he does know that. I just cringe whenever Orthodoxy is put in a negative light--especially by our own people! LOL

A.

[hopeful]

After all is said and done, who will we trust with our hard-earned money?  It will take many generations to get this scandal behind us because we have been burned.  Perhaps we are living in http://hell!

[Fr. George]

After all is said and done, who will we trust with our hard-earned money?  It will take many generations to get this scandal behind us because we have been burned.  

It will take time to heal the broken trust, true... but if this matter is investigated by the CHurch itself, that will do a lot, I think, to reassure people that different leadership is in place...

Perhaps we are living in hell!

Eh, this isn't even 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 of what hell is like... but it sure feels terrible, don't it?

[Νεκτάριος]

Eh, this isn't even 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 of what hell is like... but it sure feels terrible, don't it?

Never been to Arizona during the summer, eh?  FWIW it has been like 120 days since we last had any rain in Phoenix.... it is just getting ridiculous.  

[Fr. George]

The best I've gotten is a very humid 108 in Greece, with no A/C.

[Elisha]

Some news...

http://www.oca.org/News.asp?ID=946&SID=19

[Fr. George]

Interesting decision by the synod... it is worth mentioning that it does not provide for review pre-2001, which is when many of these allegations say the worst of the problems happened...

[Elisha]

Interesting decision by the synod... it is worth mentioning that it does not provide for review pre-2001, which is when many of these allegations say the worst of the problems happened...

Exactly....seems to be just status quo unfortuntately.

[Fr. George]

I still wonder if anything substantial will be found in the contemporary time period; but I think the bishops are a bit smarter than that.  I'm sure they know that there are no real serious irregularities in the period in question (2001+).  

Even if they do adopt best practices and whatnot, and make some actual steps to making sure this kind of thing can't happen again, they still need to address the alleged problems with the 1990's and what is probably a substantial amount of money.

[Elisha]

I still wonder if anything substantial will be found in the contemporary time period; but I think the bishops are a bit smarter than that.  I'm sure they know that there are no real serious irregularities in the period in question (2001+). ÂÂ

Even if they do adopt best practices and whatnot, and make some actual steps to making sure this kind of thing can't happen again, they still need to address the alleged problems with the 1990's and what is probably a substantial amount of money.

Yes, from the chronology of the site, there seems to be a couple million in a +Met discretionary account(s) that they continue to refuse to address....the whole point of the scandal.  Doesn't make sense.

[Robert]

I can't wait for the IRS to pull the plug on tax-exemption!  Who will take the next title of Orthodox Church in America??

[Robert]

I'm going to get a petition going for the IRS to investigate the OCA.  If enough people sign, perhaps we can force the government to intervene and take care of the criminals who were involved in this scam.

[Fr. George]

Would that cause harm to the rest of the Church, though?  I don't know if the IRS would hold only the individuals responsible without trying to sink the whole ship....

[Robert]

From the IRS point of view, Orthodox is no different than Protestant....they're all considered not-for-profit.  So I wouldn't think this would ruin it for the whole batch, seeing as how many churches and NFPs there are in the US.  Plus, no one has anything to be worried about if they're keeping relevant and reliable financial information. ÂÂ

[Arystarcus]

I wonder how many people will leave the OCA because of this, not that I would blame them.

[Fr. George]

I don't know - while on one side, I would be incredibly distrustful, on the other hand, if this drives people from Orthodoxy then how strong was their faith to begin with?

[Arystarcus]

I've been reading through people's responses to the statement of the Synod of Bishops on the Orthodox Christians for Accountability website and the following comments from readers seem to be right on the money:

More stalling. More of the same. Why should we have expected differently? They continue to take the tack of pretending the decade of the 1990's never happened and hoping that the current cries for accountability will subside. This statement oozes with false piety. It is arrogant of the Holy Synod to so flagrantly ignore the outcries for an audit of the 1990's and then turn around and exhort us with references to the Gospel.

#2 Name Withheld By Request on 2006-03-02 07:48

Unfortunately, the statement failed to address the most important years in question, 1995 through 2003, were not addressed and no independent audit recommended! So much for restoring trust, accountability, ethics and integrity to the OCA.

Furthermore, the Synod failed to address whether the serious allegations made by Deacon Wheeler (and supported by others) are TRUE or FALSE?

Somehow, I'm not surprised.

This is known as the "Ostrich System of Management" perfected in the OCA. Burry your head in the sand and hope it all quietly goes away by itself. Better still, they will use the Great Lent to help silence further debate and cquestions and they will remind them that during Lent we are not supposed to "judge" or "cause trouble" or "speak out" against the hierarchy.

If this is what passes for "leadership" in the OCA in this day and age, we are in deeper trouble than some financial shenanigans. I said it before and I will repeat it again, there is a serious and deep spiritual crisis in the very heart of the church hierarchy and administration. Until the truth comes out, there is true repentance and accountability, and a genuine initiative to clean house and change course, things will continue to degrade and descend into darkness. Lord Have Mercy!
#3 Chris Banescu, Esq. on 2006-03-02 09:00

[Arystarcus]

I don't know - while on one side, I would be incredibly distrustful, on the other hand, if this drives people from Orthodoxy then how strong was their faith to begin with?

I was just wondering how many people would leave the OCA, for another jurisdiction - not leave Orthodoxy altogether, although I could see that happening.

Lots of people have left their respective churches when some scandal broke - Catholics, protestants, etc., why wouldn't the same happen to those of the Orthodox faith?

[Fr. George]

I was just wondering how many people would leave the OCA, for another jurisdiction - not leave Orthodoxy altogether, although I could see that happening.  

Right, right.... sorry I didn't see that originally, it was in front of my face.

[Arystarcus]

Right, right.... sorry I didn't see that originally, it was in front of my face.

It's cool.  

[Fr. George]

Nice avatar man.

[Arystarcus]

Gracias.  

The option to search "images" on google is priceless.  

[Fr. George]

The internet: helping promote fiscal accountability, and the dissemination of photographs!

[Arystarcus]

The internet: helping promote fiscal accountability, and the dissemination of photographs!

haha, indeed.  

[Back on topic]

I'm wondering if we shall hear any more from Archbishop Job on the scandal, as he seemed to be the lone voice amongst the hierarchs?

I'm betting on "no", though I am hoping that I am mistaken.  

[/Back on topic]

[Fr. George]

Normally I'd say that any bishop who likes to talk will continue, but if the synod decided in session that the above plan of action is the best way to go, he may tone down while they put it into action...

But if he doesn't like the progress, don't be surprised to see him start up again...

[Carpatho Russian]

I wonder how many people will leave the OCA because of this, not that I would blame them.

As a member of the OCA, I for one am not planning to "jump" jurisdictions.  However, this just confirms my belief that respect is something that is earned and not something that is due to one because of a title.  Also, it will be a very long time before I even consider contributing to an appeal sponsored by the OCA.

[Fr. George]

I guess that's the only way to approach it for the moment...

[JoeS]

Nah, he's Lutheran. But yes, he does know that. I just cringe whenever Orthodoxy is put in a negative light--especially by our own people! LOL

A.

It is good to understand that if we, the faithful, dont bring this to light who will?  The faithful only want what is best for the Church.  Hiding this scandal under the rug is no way to administer God's house.  Better now than later.  We are big enough to handle the outcome and whatever the results of an independent audit.  Postponing any investigation will only compound problems.

I am OCA and will remain so.  This scandal is about men not God and not our faith.

[Mo the Ethio]

Quote from Arystarcus: " I wonder how many people will leave the OCA because of this, not that I blame them."
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
 ÃƒÆ’‚ Hmmm.... I know that OCA bashing is somewhat popular on this forum, but I pray that your comments are not a thinly veiled attack .

 ÃƒÆ’‚ When one`s house has suffered structural decay and is in need of repare ,do you move out or call a carpenter?
 ÃƒÆ’‚ When someone in your family is suffering from dysfunctions , do you disassociate yourself from that person or try to help that family member in need?
 ÃƒÆ’‚  To those that feel the need to leave the OCA over this issue........" The Church of Christ is guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot err" .....but those (people) in the church can(err) and almost always will.It doesn`t matter which Orthodox Church you go to ...there are always problems , big and small.
 ÃƒÆ’‚ It is unfortunate that Americans are applying their instant gratification needs to this situation and possibly considering leaving the OCA rather than making the hard decisions that are necessary and many shy away from these days. I have no respect for those that want to run away from this issue in our jurisdiction...I consider you weak and you probably run away from your personal issues as well.
 ÃƒÆ’‚ For once , stop your running , and deal with the problem and let`s get our house in order.
 
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Moses
 ÃƒÆ’‚  
 
 ÃƒÆ’‚