Author Topic: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy  (Read 674 times)

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Offline Svetlana

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"The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« on: December 28, 2018, 12:37:27 AM »
I notice a difference in order of the Liturgy, when it's time for the phrase:  "The Doors, The Doors", in EO or OO.
In EO, this phrase comes right before the Nicene Creed.  In OO, it comes just before the prayers for all hierarchs of the Church.

Does anyone know how this order in each Liturgy came about?

-- Sv.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 03:18:06 AM »
I notice a difference in order of the Liturgy, when it's time for the phrase:  "The Doors, The Doors", in EO or OO.
In EO, this phrase comes right before the Nicene Creed.  In OO, it comes just before the prayers for all hierarchs of the Church.

Does anyone know how this order in each Liturgy came about?

-- Sv.

Actually there are four main Oriental Orthodox liturgical rites: the Syriac Orthodox (the most complete and authentic of the West Syriac liturgical traditions), the Armenian Rite (which is in its present form very close to the Byzantine Rite in terms of the order of worship), the Coptic Rite, and the Ethiopian Rite.

Each one is quite different from the others.   There are also regional variations, for example, slight differences between the Syriac Orthodox liturgy in say, Jerusalem or Damascus vs. Iraq or India.

“The doors, the doors” however basically is the dismissal of the Catechumens, and it dates from antiquity, in which catechumens were not allowed to remain in the Church during the sacramental services like the Eucharist (the Liturgy of the Faithful).  For that matter, there was a time when Catechumens did not initially have the Gospel read to them, but were in the earliest stages of catechesis prepared by hearing other texts, before being allowed to attend the Liturgy of the Catechumens, and then being baptized.   Some people waited until they were on their deathbed to be baptized as there was superstition that the forgiveness of sins provided by Baptism could not be repeated, or one could only receive the sacrament of reconciliation once or so.   This rigorist, legalist approach was part of the Montanist heresy which Tertullian was associated with, but it also explains why some people like St. Constantine remained mere catechumens until they were on their death bed.
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I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Svetlana

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 11:32:19 PM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2018, 01:58:04 AM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.

I should guess that the variation is an artifact of the older form of the Armenian liturgy, before it was heavily Byzantinized; from what I understand it historically followed an Antiochene-Hagiopolitan model and was closer to the liturgies of St. James, the Syriac Orthodox, and the Ethiopian Church.   There were also 13 anaphoras, instead of one, there was a Presanctified liturgy, and certain very minor Latinizations (specifically, the shape of the episcopal mitres and the reading of the Last Gospel, usually John 1:1-14, a fixture of every Solemn Mass and Missa Cantata in the Roman Rite, at the ending of the service) were absent.

Fun fact: when the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia was published, the Armenian Catholic Church was the largest and most important Eastern Catholic church, larger than the Maronites, even.   A testament to this is the massive, majestic Armenian-Rite Catholic Monastery which still graces Venice.  Rome tried really hard to engulf and absorb the Armenian Orthodox church, without success.  The continued survival of Armenian Orthodoxy after the Byzantine and Roman Catholic attempts to subvert or appropriate it, the conquest of both the old Kingdom of Armenia and the Kingdom of Cilicia, the Turkish Genocide, the Soviet persecution, the Iranian revolution, the Lebanese civil war, and the invasion and occupation of parts of Armenia by Azerbaijan and the Islamic conspiracy against it, is, frankly, nothing short of a miracle.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 02:08:00 AM by Alpha60 »
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Svetlana

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2018, 05:18:28 PM »
Yes, indeed.  Armenian will to survive as a people is strong.

The St. John Gospel reading is still done at the end of the Liturgy.  Now I can place it better, in relation to the others.

-- Sv.

Offline Svetlana

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2018, 05:21:51 PM »
When I compare the two Liturgies, Byzantine and Armenian, I have to say that older forms are still used in the Armenian Liturgy.  I recognize marked differences in the Byzantine Liturgy.

I hope someone with knowledge of "Liturgics" can respond to my question of how the ordering came about, of where the phrase "The Doors, The Doors" was placed.
It has quite a different effect, when preceding the Nicene Creed (Byzantine), or preceding the prayers for the patriarchs (Armenian).

-- Sv.

Offline WPM

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2018, 05:50:55 PM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.

The same liturgy In the book Orthodox Church by Kallistos Ware
Jesus Prayer : the invocation of the name of Jesus, most commonly, 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me' , although there are a number of variant forms. Not merely a technique or a Christian mantra, but a prayer addressed to the person of Jesus Christ, expressing our living faith in Him as Son of God and Savior.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2018, 09:45:38 PM »
When I compare the two Liturgies, Byzantine and Armenian, I have to say that older forms are still used in the Armenian Liturgy.  I recognize marked differences in the Byzantine Liturgy.

I hope someone with knowledge of "Liturgics" can respond to my question of how the ordering came about, of where the phrase "The Doors, The Doors" was placed.
It has quite a different effect, when preceding the Nicene Creed (Byzantine), or preceding the prayers for the patriarchs (Armenian).

-- Sv.

Actually the Armenian liturgy in its present configuration is newer than the Byzantine liturgy; it is a synthesis of the old Armenian-Antiochian liturgy with the Byzantine synaxis and the Last Gospel from the Roman Rite.  Also the Anaphora, attributed to St. Athanasius, is believed to be a relatively recent hybrid or abridgement of the Anaphora of St. James.

The old Armenian Rite featured 13 Anaphoras and a presanctified liturgy, and I believe it still survives in manuscript form.  There was also IIRC a presanctified liturgy.  The current Armenian practices of not serving the Eucharist to the laity in Lent and not ordinarily serving a weekday liturgy I am inclined to doubt the antiquity of.   Brigidsboy or Aram would be the best person to comment on this manner.

Also, on a more minor detail  bishops vest with mitres of a Roman style, although so do Coptic priests, but I believe the Coptic priestly mitre in its present shape dates from the era of Pope Shenouda; regardless, both are probably Latinizations, but the reading of John 1:1-14 at the end of the Armenian liturgy almost certainly is; the Roman church really actively tried to acquire the Armenian in the same manner it took over the Maronite, and as I mentioned earlier, in 1910, before the Genocide, the Armenian Catholic Church was the largest and most important Eastern Catholic church, and also for a time Eastern Catholics in Georgia and Russia used the Armenian Rite, IIRC, because the Russian Orthodox Church and the Czarist regime denied them the use of the Byzantine Rite, and they selected the Armenian Rite owing to its close similiarity, although presumably they modified some aspects of it, just as Armenian Catholics dropped the Theopaschite Clause appended to the Trisagion by St. Peter Fullo in the Oriental churches, as until the 20th century Chalcedonians incorrectly believed the Theopaschite clause to be Patripassian and thus heretical, not bothering to inquire and learn the Oriental churches understand it as Christological). 

~

By the way, the setting of the Armenian liturgy, or Badarak/Patarag, by Gormidas (or Komitas as he is known in the Eastern dialect), is one of my favourite works of liturgical music.  I also like the Yekmalian setting, but the Komitas version makes me squee.  It’s incredibly pretty.   I also have a few more obscure settings.  I think I am going to listen to my playlist of Armenian music exclusively tonight or tomorrow night, so thank you for inadvertantly inclining me to do that.  It is also my opinion the Armenian churches in the Middle East, especially in the Holy Land, are the most beautifully decorated; I love a traditional Armenian church with icons on the Bema and massive oil lamps suspended over the altar on a rope.  The Armenian church in Isfahan, Iran also has stunning frescoes; it is the Oriental Orthodox answer to the Sistine Chapel.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Alpha60

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and ARMENIAN liturgy
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2018, 09:48:31 PM »
Brigidsboy or Salpy or Aram will hopefully comment here as they know infinitely more about Armenian liturgics than I do, also.  My posts should be regarded as tentative due to my minimal experience with Armenian usages.  :)
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2018, 11:23:50 AM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.

SV, as I learned it, it was from pre-Nicene days, where the deacon cried out, "The doors, the doors, in wisdom let us attend" before recitation of the creed. I don't know if this practice came from Malachi 1:10, where Malachi spoke saying, "Oh that one of you would shut the doors ..." but in this part of the liturgy the deacon (pre-Nicene) was calling out to the door-keeper who stood by the main doors into the church, telling him to close and guard the doors against uninvited and unwanted intruders. In the days of the pre-Nicene church, what they were all about to do (offer the Eucharist) was a capital offence under Roman law, and the lives of all the worshipers were in danger. Hence the command to guard the doors. I don't know if that answers your question of how it came about prior to the recitation of the creed? That is what I was taught about how it came about. If someone knows the exact history or has something more in-depth, I'd be interested to hear too.


Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2018, 06:30:45 PM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.
The Creed was a later addition to the Liturgy.  The doors the doors was the summons to secure the doors after the last of the penitents had departed.  The catechumens were dismissed earlier.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Svetlana

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2019, 07:27:23 PM »
When I compare the two Liturgies, Byzantine and Armenian, I have to say that older forms are still used in the Armenian Liturgy.  I recognize marked differences in the Byzantine Liturgy.

I hope someone with knowledge of "Liturgics" can respond to my question of how the ordering came about, of where the phrase "The Doors, The Doors" was placed.
It has quite a different effect, when preceding the Nicene Creed (Byzantine), or preceding the prayers for the patriarchs (Armenian).

-- Sv.

Actually the Armenian liturgy in its present configuration is newer than the Byzantine liturgy; it is a synthesis of the old Armenian-Antiochian liturgy with the Byzantine synaxis and the Last Gospel from the Roman Rite.  Also the Anaphora, attributed to St. Athanasius, is believed to be a relatively recent hybrid or abridgement of the Anaphora of St. James.

The old Armenian Rite featured 13 Anaphoras and a presanctified liturgy, and I believe it still survives in manuscript form.  There was also IIRC a presanctified liturgy.  The current Armenian practices of not serving the Eucharist to the laity in Lent and not ordinarily serving a weekday liturgy I am inclined to doubt the antiquity of.   Brigidsboy or Aram would be the best person to comment on this manner.

Also, on a more minor detail  bishops vest with mitres of a Roman style, although so do Coptic priests, but I believe the Coptic priestly mitre in its present shape dates from the era of Pope Shenouda; regardless, both are probably Latinizations, but the reading of John 1:1-14 at the end of the Armenian liturgy almost certainly is; the Roman church really actively tried to acquire the Armenian in the same manner it took over the Maronite, and as I mentioned earlier, in 1910, before the Genocide, the Armenian Catholic Church was the largest and most important Eastern Catholic church, and also for a time Eastern Catholics in Georgia and Russia used the Armenian Rite, IIRC, because the Russian Orthodox Church and the Czarist regime denied them the use of the Byzantine Rite, and they selected the Armenian Rite owing to its close similiarity, although presumably they modified some aspects of it, just as Armenian Catholics dropped the Theopaschite Clause appended to the Trisagion by St. Peter Fullo in the Oriental churches, as until the 20th century Chalcedonians incorrectly believed the Theopaschite clause to be Patripassian and thus heretical, not bothering to inquire and learn the Oriental churches understand it as Christological). 

~

By the way, the setting of the Armenian liturgy, or Badarak/Patarag, by Gormidas (or Komitas as he is known in the Eastern dialect), is one of my favourite works of liturgical music.  I also like the Yekmalian setting, but the Komitas version makes me squee.  It’s incredibly pretty.   I also have a few more obscure settings.  I think I am going to listen to my playlist of Armenian music exclusively tonight or tomorrow night, so thank you for inadvertantly inclining me to do that.  It is also my opinion the Armenian churches in the Middle East, especially in the Holy Land, are the most beautifully decorated; I love a traditional Armenian church with icons on the Bema and massive oil lamps suspended over the altar on a rope.  The Armenian church in Isfahan, Iran also has stunning frescoes; it is the Oriental Orthodox answer to the Sistine Chapel.
--
THank you for the compliments, Alpha.   -- Sv.

Offline Svetlana

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2019, 07:31:30 PM »
Thank you also, noahzarc and Deacon Lance.  A few more pieces of the story, added.

I have read Kallistos Ware's book, The Orthodox Church, but specific Liturgics are not given to answer this question.  There should be answers to the question, though.  Research needed.

Thanks for your attempts, folks.

-- Sv.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2019, 01:45:27 PM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.
The Creed was a later addition to the Liturgy.  The doors the doors was the summons to secure the doors after the last of the penitents had departed.  The catechumens were dismissed earlier.

In antiquity how many doors do we expect a large church like the Hagia Sophia had, and did the ordained Doorkeepers lock all of them?  Could someone exit the liturgy after this point, but before the dismissal, for example to use the lavatory?  (The Coptic synaxarion regarding Arius would suggest as much)
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Svetlana

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2019, 07:36:09 PM »
All are interesting small pieces of history.

I must correct my earlier statements on the placement of "The Doors, The Doors" in the Armenian Liturgy :  in fact, this expression precedes "It is truly meet and right to give thanks, which is then immediately followed with "Soorp, Soorp" = "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts . . . ", which is then immediately followed by the Consecration of the Gifts.

This makes sense in the profound spiritual sense of the progression of the important moments in the Liturgy.  Together with this, it also makes sense the comment made by the above contributor in this discussion, who explains that the Nicene Creed was, in fact, a later addition to the Liturgy.

Thank you -- this answers my question.

-- Sv.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2019, 01:59:16 AM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.
The Creed was a later addition to the Liturgy.  The doors the doors was the summons to secure the doors after the last of the penitents had departed.  The catechumens were dismissed earlier.

In antiquity how many doors do we expect a large church like the Hagia Sophia had, and did the ordained Doorkeepers lock all of them?  Could someone exit the liturgy after this point, but before the dismissal, for example to use the lavatory?  (The Coptic synaxarion regarding Arius would suggest as much)

There were nine doors from the narthex to nave and 3 each on the north and south sides.  I don’t think they locked at all, but simply shut them so yes I believe one could leave.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2019, 07:14:12 AM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.
The Creed was a later addition to the Liturgy.  The doors the doors was the summons to secure the doors after the last of the penitents had departed.  The catechumens were dismissed earlier.

In antiquity how many doors do we expect a large church like the Hagia Sophia had, and did the ordained Doorkeepers lock all of them?  Could someone exit the liturgy after this point, but before the dismissal, for example to use the lavatory?  (The Coptic synaxarion regarding Arius would suggest as much)

There were nine doors from the narthex to nave and 3 each on the north and south sides.  I don’t think they locked at all, but simply shut them so yes I believe one could leave.

This may seem like a strange question, but again it relates to the death of Arius in the washroom at Constantinople, and also to the moronic accusations by contemporary anti-Trinitarians that he was poisoned, but if one had to exit to use the lavatory, could one re-enter?  And do we have any idea on what the historical rules are or were regarding exit and re-entry vs. contemporary praxis?

I am chiefly trying to get my head around what happened with Arius in the case of his demise at Hagia Sophia, for apologetical reasons, hence this unusual inquiry.

Also, on a related point, are ushers in contemporary Orthodox churches invariably laics, or do we still ordain doorkeepers to serve in this function (collecting alms, opening and closing doors, welcoming people, and in the most gentle way possible, providing for security and assistance for the people).
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2019, 03:47:32 PM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.


Actually the phrase is found in the Armenian Liturgy shortly before the Sanctus in the Anaphora. It has no relation to the prayers for the hierarchy of the church.
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Svetlana

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Re: "The Doors, The Doors" in EO and OO Liturgy
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2019, 06:28:57 PM »
I am interested to know how it came about that, in EO, the phrase "The Doors, The Doors", directly precedes the Nicene Creed recitation in the Liturgy, whereas in the Armenian Liturgy, "The Doors, The Doors" precedes the deacon's prayer recitations for the clergy:  Catholikos, bishops, priests and specifically presiding celebrant, deaconate,  and for the correct way of preserving and practicing Orthodox Truth.  (my best attempt at rendition).

The order of events is different in these two Liturgies.  Does anyone have knowledge of how the order of events in each one came about?  And if the order changes any meaning or anything else significantly in the Liturgy ?

-- Sv.


Actually the phrase is found in the Armenian Liturgy shortly before the Sanctus in the Anaphora. It has no relation to the prayers for the hierarchy of the church.
--
Yes, you are right.  I noticed this at my last attendance of the Armenian Badarak, paying special attention.  As soon as I realized that this phrase precedes the Sanctus, (Soorp, Soorp), then followed by "It is meet and right", then immediately follows the Consecration of the Gifts -- then I posted correction of my error (see above).  -- Given this sequence, one can sense the powerful spiritual significance of this sequence in the Liturgy.

Thank you for your response.

-- Sv.