Author Topic: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?  (Read 2094 times)

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Offline Mercurius1

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Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« on: December 05, 2018, 01:16:11 PM »
What are the best resources, books, etc., for extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus? I know Josephus, Pliny (?) are cited, what are the other resources? It seems if Jesus was making these claims, they would have been well documented

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 01:17:19 PM »
Prolly Shroud of Turin and the Historical Jesus

Offline platypus

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2018, 01:44:42 PM »
Tacitus briefly mentions Him in the Annals.

Book 15, chapter 44: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Annals_(Tacitus)/Book_15#44
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2018, 05:44:04 PM »
What are the best resources, books, etc., for extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus? I know Josephus, Pliny (?) are cited, what are the other resources? It seems if Jesus was making these claims, they would have been well documented

"What else can we say, when the wise are forcibly dragged off by tyrants, their wisdom is captured by insults, and their minds are oppressed and without defense? What advantage did the Athenians gain from murdering Socrates? Famine and plague came upon them as a punishment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the 'new law' he laid down." - Mara bar Serapion, A.D. 74


Offline Agabus

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 06:20:57 PM »
What are the best resources, books, etc., for extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus? I know Josephus, Pliny (?) are cited, what are the other resources? It seems if Jesus was making these claims, they would have been well documented

What claims?

And why, outside his followers? During his lifetime, Jesus was a small town celebrity preacher, but not someone Rome even considered taking note of.

And the other thing to consider is that perhaps they were well documented (not my position, necessarily), but the manuscripts did not survive. That's the case about lots of people who were considered a big deal during their lifetimes.

EDIT: A while back History for Athiests did an extensive post about why the whole "no contemporary documentation" argument doesn't hold a lot of water.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 06:23:57 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 06:49:11 PM »
The jews in the talmud talked about Jesus, (nothing nice, in fact, it'll make your blood boil, a simple google search will show it) they denied it, but its clearly who they mention several times.

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm

There are several more.


Offline biro

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2018, 06:52:37 PM »
That is not Jesus of Nazareth. That is another man who was named Jesus.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 06:54:08 PM »
That is not Jesus of Nazareth. That is another man who was named Jesus.

Sure it is ;)

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 06:56:21 PM »
Im sure you're aware of Plato.
His works werent available for centuries, they were copied too many times to count over those centuries, yet nobody denies he lived.
If Jesus, who by all means didnt have a lot written about him (except the bible, and all sources listed above) isnt proof enough, then tons of Famous people who have less written about them must also be discounted.

Offline biro

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 07:01:03 PM »
You shouldn't believe that garbage you get off the Brother Nathanael videos. He hasn't learned from correct sources, and he's being disingenuous.

I repeat, the Jesus mentioned in the Talmud is a different man also named Jesus. Jesus (or Joshua) was a pretty common first name back then.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2018, 07:02:30 PM »
Mercurius1,

Please see the long lists of works on my two threads:
List of 1st century writings by or about Christians
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,67356.0.html

and

1st century Gnostic Christian, Judaic, and Pagan writings about Christianity
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71438.msg1456985.html#msg1456985
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 07:03:20 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2018, 07:57:44 PM »
That is not Jesus of Nazareth. That is another man who was named Jesus.

It's pretty clearly Jesus of Nazareth. Celsus even uses these same Jewish polemics for his own arguments against Christianity.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2018, 08:13:59 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2018, 08:16:34 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2018, 08:23:48 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.
don’t care about that in case you haven’t surmised
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2018, 08:24:43 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.
don’t care about that in case you haven’t surmised

You've condemned yourself, just saying.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2018, 08:26:05 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.
don’t care about that in case you haven’t surmised

You've condemned yourself, just saying.
as I said doesn’t bother me much
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Agabus

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2018, 08:37:29 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.

LOL, bit of a stretch buddy.

I'm sure you can find some guru elder saying as much, but at it's core what makes the study of the historical development of texts heresy?
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2018, 08:58:17 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.
don’t care about that in case you haven’t surmised

You've condemned yourself, just saying.
as I said doesn’t bother me much

Just warning you.

Quote
LOL, bit of a stretch buddy.

I'm sure you can find some guru elder saying as much, but at it's core what makes the study of the historical development of texts heresy?

Because Biblical criticism is rooted in faulty Enlightenment skepticism which seeks to undermine the texts rather than gain a true understanding of them. At the very least you must admit there are certain methodological flaws because there is a clear bias for naturalism in modern Biblical criticism. I used to be really into that stuff until I decided to actually follow God instead of the traditions of men who hate God.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 08:59:38 PM by Isaiah53IsMessiah »

Offline WPM

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2018, 09:49:11 PM »
Ethnic and Brown skinned Middle Eastern man

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2018, 09:50:56 PM »
That is not Jesus of Nazareth. That is another man who was named Jesus.

Please share more of these insights.
Quote
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2018, 10:27:51 PM »
That is not Jesus of Nazareth. That is another man who was named Jesus.

Please share more of these insights.
that’s Jesus of Nazareth indeed but the point is that’s not an attestation independent of the Gospel tradition. It’s not early enough to be of any use to attest a  historical Jesus .
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2018, 10:54:14 PM »
That is not Jesus of Nazareth. That is another man who was named Jesus.

Please share more of these insights.
that’s Jesus of Nazareth indeed but...

...biro said it was some other Jesus.  I can’t keep these stories straight, which is it?
Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline Saxon

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2018, 11:05:27 PM »
I remember a news article some years back where some historian was claiming that Jesus never actually existed, as the only documentation was the Bible and some passing remarks from historical figures who, themselves, were likely drawing from scripture. Keep in mind that Christ and his followers were essentially outlaws in their time, and being associated with Christianity was enough to get you killed in the Empire at that point, so it stands to reason that there's little mention of him from historians and scholars of the period.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2018, 11:17:29 PM »
I don’t think the Pauline epistles or the Gospels paint Jesus and his followers as outlaws. Even if they were, historians wrote about outlaws all the time.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Saxon

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2018, 11:24:57 PM »
I don’t think the Pauline epistles or the Gospels paint Jesus and his followers as outlaws. Even if they were, historians wrote about outlaws all the time.

Not in 1st century Judea they didn't, and certainly the authorities and Jews considered them as such.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2018, 11:31:53 PM »
Flavius Josephus certainly wrote about plenty of revolutionaries/outlaws/ trouble makers.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2018, 11:46:27 PM »
If you're planning on digging deeper into this you might consider reading through Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth by Bart D. Ehrman. This book (like his work in general) didn't blow me away, but there's something interesting about someone of his (unbeliever) reputation arguing against mythicists and other similarly-minded folk.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2018, 01:18:00 AM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.
We have tons of 1st - mid 2nd century Christian writings, but a skeptic could claim that they are propagating a myth.
(http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2786&p=62053#p62053)

The Pharisees' Council of Jamnia (70-100) includes Shmuel ha-Katan's Birkat Ha Minim (Blessing on the Heretics) against the Christians, and there are Rabbi Akiva's early 2nd century attacks on Christians. They, along with Celsus (late 2nd c.) and the Talmud (c.200 AD) talk about Jesus and Christians, and some modern non-Christian scholars (I think including Ehrman) point out that although they make lots of arguments against Christianity, they don't include the claim that Jesus himself was just a made-up figure.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2018, 01:40:06 AM »
..the Jesus mentioned in the Talmud is a different man also named Jesus. Jesus (or Joshua) was a pretty common first name back then.
Hello, Biro!

I welcome you to engage the serious scholarly evidence that the Talmud, written in c. 200 AD, mentioned Jesus of Nazareth (referred to in the work as Yeshu Ha-Notzri or Yeshua Ben Pandera). Rambam/Maimonides himself called Jesus of Nazareth Yeshua Ha-Notzri.

Also, according to the 2nd century writer Celsus, a non-Christian Jewish polemicist considered Jesus to be the illegitimate son of Panthera. In the Talmud, Jacob of Sakhnin is a healer and the disciple of Yeshua Ben Pandera (Jesus the son of Pandera) and is rejected by the rabbis. There are many explicit references to Yeshua/Yeshu (probably Jesus) and the "Nazarenes" and "Ebionites" (Christians) in the Talmud. It makes sense that the Talmud would mention Jesus and the Nazarenes because there were so many interactions between the two groups in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. According to the 1st to mid second century Jewish or Jewish-Christian writers Josephus and Hegesippus, Jesus' brother and disciple Jacob (probably the same one mentioned above) was rejected by Jerusalem's rabbis.

Here is Josephus' writing on James:
https://pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor/ancient-judaism/josephus-james/

Here is a section in Wikipedia on the parallels between Celsus' description of Jesus and that in the Talmud:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#Related_narrative_from_Celsus
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 01:49:12 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2018, 04:40:10 AM »
Our Lord is one of the best-documented figures of antiquity, referred to by contemporary historians such as Joseph and Tacitus, and hisnlife and works described in four canonical Gospels and 23 other canonical books, plus easily twice as many apocryphal or Gnostic works.   The enormous cultural impact he had rules out the idea touted by some, the blaphemy that he was invented by St. Paul.  Furthermore, the writings of St. Paul are independently verified by the writings of St. Luke, St. Peter, St. John the belovef Apostle, St. Mark the Evangelist and first Pope of Alexandria, St. Matthew the Apostle and Evangelist, St. Jude and St. James, and the minor variations between the canonical writers and what parts of the Gospel they seem most interested in talking about.

We have more historical evidence that Jesus exists than we do for most ancient philosophers and a great many Roman Emperors and military heroes.  For example, it is remotely possible, that the confrontations between Cornelius Scipio Africanus and Hannibal of Carthage are more legend than fact.  For example, I would not be shocked if evidence were presented that Hannibal’s ill-fated attempt to cross the alps with an elephant unit was Roman propaganda, perhaps issued post-war.  And regarding Socrates, while he probably existed, the accounts given of his life by Plato, Xenophon and Alcibiades.

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Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

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Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2018, 08:12:33 AM »
This is a good video that was made by Chris White showing Non Biblical Sources for the existence of The Lord Jesus Christ in History:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe_6pOSzAB0


• CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.)

• GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.)

• THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.)

• PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D)

• CELSUS (~ 178 A.D.)

• LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA (120 - ~180 A.D.)

• MARA BAR-SERAPION (Post 70 A.D)


• FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS  (37 - 100 A.D.)

• THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD


• CLEMENT OF ROME  (? - 98? A.D.)

• IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH  (? - ~100 A.D)

• QUADRATUS OF ATHENS  (126 A.D.)

• JUSTIN MARTYR  (~100 - 165 A.D.)

• HEGESIPPUS  (110 A.D. - 180 A.D.)


« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 08:17:41 AM by Jude1:3 »

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2018, 12:36:01 PM »
From :    http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/




• Tacitus (56-120AD)
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”








• Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”








• Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”








• Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)








• Celsus (175AD)
“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”









• Josephus (37-101AD)
“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier,










« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 12:36:20 PM by Jude1:3 »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2018, 02:17:49 PM »
^^ of all those “proofs” only JF would have any merit it it could be proved that his text wasn’t either interpolated or at least heavily tampered by Christians and also it was independent of the Gospel trAdition . Everything else only proves there were Christians at that time telling a story.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2018, 02:28:58 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.

Says who?  I can’t recall the ecumenical council that proclaimed it heretical, or for that matter adopted Protestant style scriptural infallibility as Orthodox.  Now, bearing in mind that augustin717’s deprecation of three of four Gopspels and his denouement of the fourth is far from official Church doctrine, I also feel obliged to delicately suggest that even for a neophyte, it would best to leave such matters to the church authorities, but catechumens should be firmly aware of this very important quote from the current ebook edition of the 1906 English translation of the Pedalion:

Quote

“WITHOUT ECCLESIASTICAL TRIALS NEITHER HIERARCHS NOR CANONS CAN DEPOSE OR EXCOMMUNICATE ANYONE

This final comment concerns the use of the Canons. The compiler of the Rudder, Nicodemos, brings to our attention this fact about the Canons, saying, “the Canons depose no one.” They speak in the third person, “let him be deposed”, and for this reason, the Priesthood and Mysteries of a bishop or Priest remain in force, even though he violates many Canons that call for his deposition. The proper procedure of the Canons must be observed by episcopal authorities in order to depose or to excommunicate anyone. A trial must be held, charges made, and a defense offered before action can be complete.”

Thus, the catechumen, who should prepare himself for the eagerly anticipated joy of being received into the church through baptism and posessing the seal of the spirit throughq Chrismation, while still as yet being prepared for that through the process of initiation into the doctrines and mysteries of the Holy Church of Christ, should properly refrain from accusing anyone of heresy, as the process of instruction and catechesis before baptism will make it clear what is and is not heretical and what the appropriate response is.  And even the neophyte or the layman should exercise extreme caution with regards to saying to people something like “they have self-condemned”, because remarks of this sort almost never actually convince the recipient thereof of their error.  It is virtually impossible to debate someone into becoming Orthodox as Fr. Andrew pointed out in the most recent edition of Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, and almost as difficult for anyone not a priest to convince someone who is in a substantial error that they are in that error; also, many faithful experience crises of belief which can last for years or decades, even clergy and monastics, “the Long Night of the Soul,” as one ascetic aptly put it.  Rather it is best to focus on ones own salvation, and if one sees an extremely obvious heresy, point out the error, but tread softly; also it should be stressed that no one becomes deposed or excommunicated without the proper ecclesiastical process occurring.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2018, 02:49:03 PM »
^^ of all those “proofs” only JF would have any merit it it could be proved that his text wasn’t either interpolated or at least heavily tampered by Christians and also it was independent of the Gospel trAdition . Everything else only proves there were Christians at that time telling a story.

Concerning Celsus we can with certainty validate the existence of his polemics, because Origen, an accomplished scholar who was not known as a polemicist or heresiologist, wrote a very important rebuttal specifically criticizing the polemic written by Celsus against Christians, entitled, simply, Contra Celsus, through which the arguments of Celsus are preserved.  And if one were to argue that Origen fabricated them, this would be logically absurd, not to mention the other references to Celsus that exist. 

At any rate, of the quotes provided above, all of them attest to the existence of the Church, but only Tacitus appears from a position of authority to comment on the existence of our Lord, and his letter might well be spurious.  Although as Fr. John Behr once said, “Who knows?  And who cares?”  It is ultimately pointless, in Fr. John’s opinion, to try to get “behind the Gospels” to study the real “Christian faith” and Fr. John also presents a compelling argument that much of what those who seek the “historical Jesus” desire requires proving the first principle of their inquiries and is thus logically impossible.  And Fr. John Behr is the learned professor who presides over St. Vladimirs Seminary, the most rigorous Orthodox seminary in the US, and one of the most erudite of Orthodox scholars.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2018, 02:57:52 PM »
^^ of all those “proofs” only JF would have any merit it it could be proved that his text wasn’t either interpolated or at least heavily tampered by Christians and also it was independent of the Gospel trAdition . Everything else only proves there were Christians at that time telling a story.

Concerning Celsus we can with certainty validate the existence of his polemics, because Origen, an accomplished scholar who was not known as a polemicist or heresiologist, wrote a very important rebuttal specifically criticizing the polemic written by Celsus against Christians, entitled, simply, Contra Celsus, through which the arguments of Celsus are preserved.  And if one were to argue that Origen fabricated them, this would be logically absurd, not to mention the other references to Celsus that exist. 

At any rate, of the quotes provided above, all of them attest to the existence of the Church, but only Tacitus appears from a position of authority to comment on the existence of our Lord, and his letter might well be spurious.  Although as Fr. John Behr once said, “Who knows?  And who cares?”  It is ultimately pointless, in Fr. John’s opinion, to try to get “behind the Gospels” to study the real “Christian faith” and Fr. John also presents a compelling argument that much of what those who seek the “historical Jesus” desire requires proving the first principle of their inquiries and is thus logically impossible.  And Fr. John Behr is the learned professor who presides over St. Vladimirs Seminary, the most rigorous Orthodox seminary in the US, and one of the most erudite of Orthodox scholars.

Rejoice, Holy Father John, brightness of Crestwood!
Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2018, 09:35:15 PM »
There are no undisputed extra-biblical attestations of Jesus. And actually you can narrow attestations down to Mark’s Gospel. Which we are t sure whether it’s a bad attempt at historiography or allegory.

Biblical Criticism is heretical.
don’t care about that in case you haven’t surmised

You've condemned yourself, just saying.
as I said doesn’t bother me much

Just warning you.

Quote
LOL, bit of a stretch buddy.

I'm sure you can find some guru elder saying as much, but at it's core what makes the study of the historical development of texts heresy?

Because Biblical criticism is rooted in faulty Enlightenment skepticism which seeks to undermine the texts rather than gain a true understanding of them. At the very least you must admit there are certain methodological flaws because there is a clear bias for naturalism in modern Biblical criticism. I used to be really into that stuff until I decided to actually follow God instead of the traditions of men who hate God.

+1

The slippery slope is real, first its doubting Noah, then Moses, the Flood, pretty soon you start doubting Genesis's creation.
But people now worship science, even though it changes weekly.
Are eggs still bad for us or not?  ;D

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2018, 10:03:43 PM »
You shouldn't believe that garbage you get off the Brother Nathanael videos. He hasn't learned from correct sources, and he's being disingenuous.

I repeat, the Jesus mentioned in the Talmud is a different man also named Jesus. Jesus (or Joshua) was a pretty common first name back then.

Why bring up Brother Nathaniel?

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-killed-jesus/

https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/judaism-church-after-vatican-ii-1342

Jesus is written in the Talmud, so is the Blessed Virgin Mary.


Offline Alpo

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2018, 04:22:45 AM »
^^ of all those “proofs” only JF would have any merit it it could be proved that his text wasn’t either interpolated or at least heavily tampered by Christians and also it was independent of the Gospel trAdition . Everything else only proves there were Christians at that time telling a story.

That's what much of historical research is. However AFAIK  there's more of these "stories" about Jesus than about many other historical figures. Not that it'd proof His divinity or anything but I don't think there's reason to doubt historical existence of significant religious figure called "Jesus".
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2018, 02:16:25 AM »
^^ of all those “proofs” only JF would have any merit it it could be proved that his text wasn’t either interpolated or at least heavily tampered by Christians and also it was independent of the Gospel trAdition . Everything else only proves there were Christians at that time telling a story.

Concerning Celsus we can with certainty validate the existence of his polemics, because Origen, an accomplished scholar who was not known as a polemicist or heresiologist, wrote a very important rebuttal specifically criticizing the polemic written by Celsus against Christians, entitled, simply, Contra Celsus, through which the arguments of Celsus are preserved.  And if one were to argue that Origen fabricated them, this would be logically absurd, not to mention the other references to Celsus that exist. 

At any rate, of the quotes provided above, all of them attest to the existence of the Church, but only Tacitus appears from a position of authority to comment on the existence of our Lord, and his letter might well be spurious.  Although as Fr. John Behr once said, “Who knows?  And who cares?”  It is ultimately pointless, in Fr. John’s opinion, to try to get “behind the Gospels” to study the real “Christian faith” and Fr. John also presents a compelling argument that much of what those who seek the “historical Jesus” desire requires proving the first principle of their inquiries and is thus logically impossible.  And Fr. John Behr is the learned professor who presides over St. Vladimirs Seminary, the most rigorous Orthodox seminary in the US, and one of the most erudite of Orthodox scholars.

Rejoice, Holy Father John, brightness of Crestwood!

If he is glorified I daresay he will become the patron saint of gourmet cheese enthusiasts.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2018, 02:19:46 AM »
You shouldn't believe that garbage you get off the Brother Nathanael videos. He hasn't learned from correct sources, and he's being disingenuous.

I repeat, the Jesus mentioned in the Talmud is a different man also named Jesus. Jesus (or Joshua) was a pretty common first name back then.

In the case of poor Brother Nathanael, he is a man who is seriously mentally ill, who both the Orthodox Christian and the Jewish communities have tried to help, and who requires our prayer.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Saxon

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2018, 10:02:09 AM »
You shouldn't believe that garbage you get off the Brother Nathanael videos. He hasn't learned from correct sources, and he's being disingenuous.

I repeat, the Jesus mentioned in the Talmud is a different man also named Jesus. Jesus (or Joshua) was a pretty common first name back then.

In the case of poor Brother Nathanael, he is a man who is seriously mentally ill, who both the Orthodox Christian and the Jewish communities have tried to help, and who requires our prayer.

I've heard that Brother Nathanael's offline persona is quite different from what's seen in his YouTube videos, that content of which isn't necessarily completely inaccurate.

Offline Jude1:3

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« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 01:21:27 AM by Jude1:3 »

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Extra-Biblical Evidence for Jesus?
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2018, 11:20:19 AM »
You shouldn't believe that garbage you get off the Brother Nathanael videos. He hasn't learned from correct sources, and he's being disingenuous.

I repeat, the Jesus mentioned in the Talmud is a different man also named Jesus. Jesus (or Joshua) was a pretty common first name back then.

In the case of poor Brother Nathanael, he is a man who is seriously mentally ill, who both the Orthodox Christian and the Jewish communities have tried to help, and who requires our prayer.

I've heard that Brother Nathanael's offline persona is quite different from what's seen in his YouTube videos, that content of which isn't necessarily completely inaccurate.

Strong message here, your likely to draw the attention of the Israeli lobby....

I've seen a video of him dancing on a street corner with signs, it was an odd thing for him to do. I have seen several of his videos, and i agree he isnt  completely inaccurate, i pray he tones down the street corner dancing, he's not getting younger and a fall at that age could be dangerous  ;D

To jude1:3
Good meme there, im gonna swipe it for use arguing with militant atheists on various forums.
Any other memes like that, shoot them my way
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 11:22:19 AM by Rubricnigel »