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Author Topic: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly  (Read 735 times)

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Offline ICXCNIKA

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EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« on: December 04, 2018, 04:20:41 PM »
It could happen...
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2018, 04:29:08 PM »
Only if the Greek government were interested in such a thing, and I see no reason why they ever would be. The Church of Greece has a better chance of annexing the EP's remaining holdings in Greece- not that that is likely either.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 04:29:16 PM by Iconodule »
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 04:29:56 PM »
Greece is for vacationing
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2018, 04:36:22 PM »
I wondered how that could be accomplished.

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2018, 04:43:37 PM »
"No, I did not think it could be true."

But personally I'm for unification of the EP and the Church of Greece: EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens. Now there is no sense for multiple Greek Orthodox Churches.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2018, 04:47:32 PM »
This is really idiotic.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 06:05:27 PM »
"No, I did not think it could be true."

But personally I'm for unification of the EP and the Church of Greece: EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens. Now there is no sense for multiple Greek Orthodox Churches.

I actually agree. I would like to see a merger between the 2.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2018, 06:07:38 PM »
Only if the Greek government were interested in such a thing, and I see no reason why they ever would be. The Church of Greece has a better chance of annexing the EP's remaining holdings in Greece- not that that is likely either.

Well, I don't think the EP is actually interested in being able to follow through on their grandiose claims. They just like making them. The recognition of Ukraine being part of the MP by the EP is older than the CoG's autocephaly. And the UOC-MP probably has more freedom than the CoG.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2018, 06:09:18 PM »
This is really idiotic.

How so? Their representatives have claimed that they can remove anyone's autocephaly.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2018, 07:08:16 PM »
EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens.

Unrealistic. In Athens, the "Western capitivity" theology still plays a role and that woudln't go together well with the EP residing there. If he ever moves to Greece, Thessaloniki or Crete would be options.

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2018, 07:23:40 PM »
^Although currently he is in the Turkish captivity.  :-\

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2018, 08:00:39 PM »
^Although currently he is in the Turkish captivity.  :-\

Fixed.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2018, 08:05:50 PM »
"No, I did not think it could be true."

But personally I'm for unification of the EP and the Church of Greece: EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens. Now there is no sense for multiple Greek Orthodox Churches.

I actually agree. I would like to see a merger between the 2.
Will never happen unless Turkey conquers Greece or Greece conquers Turkey.  Whether you want to believe it or not. Political powers are what decides ecclesiastical territory. The canons say it so.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 08:06:44 PM by Tzimis »

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2018, 12:14:38 AM »
"No, I did not think it could be true."

But personally I'm for unification of the EP and the Church of Greece: EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens. Now there is no sense for multiple Greek Orthodox Churches.

I actually agree. I would like to see a merger between the 2.
Will never happen unless Turkey conquers Greece or Greece conquers Turkey.  Whether you want to believe it or not. Political powers are what decides ecclesiastical territory. The canons say it so.

Is Greece not a political power? Having 2 jurisdictions within its borders one of which is based in a hostile muslim country.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2018, 12:41:56 AM »
The EP is a Turkish citizen, who served in the Turkish army.

Despite his Greek heritage, don't know if he'd suddenly move to Athens. The people there already have a bishop.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2018, 04:13:48 AM »
"No, I did not think it could be true."

But personally I'm for unification of the EP and the Church of Greece: EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens. Now there is no sense for multiple Greek Orthodox Churches.

I actually agree. I would like to see a merger between the 2.
Will never happen unless Turkey conquers Greece or Greece conquers Turkey.  Whether you want to believe it or not. Political powers are what decides ecclesiastical territory. The canons say it so.

But the Antiochian patriarch, despite being "Antiochian" (now it's in Turkey too) resides in Damascus and he is also its metropolitan.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2018, 05:59:08 AM »
Political powers are what decides ecclesiastical territory. The canons say it so.

Uhm...what?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Gorazd

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2018, 06:03:45 AM »
But the Antiochian patriarch, despite being "Antiochian" (now it's in Turkey too) resides in Damascus and he is also its metropolitan.
Well, then probably one would need to wait for the Archbishop of Athens to die?

And btw, what would be the advantage? the AP is culturally Arabic and that's ok, but the EP claims to be ecumenical. Some accuse him already of being too Greek, wouldn't moving to Greece make things worse in this respect?

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2018, 06:05:01 AM »
"No, I did not think it could be true."

But personally I'm for unification of the EP and the Church of Greece: EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens. Now there is no sense for multiple Greek Orthodox Churches.

I actually agree. I would like to see a merger between the 2.
Will never happen unless Turkey conquers Greece or Greece conquers Turkey.  Whether you want to believe it or not. Political powers are what decides ecclesiastical territory. The canons say it so.

But the Antiochian patriarch, despite being "Antiochian" (now it's in Turkey too) resides in Damascus and he is also its metropolitan.
Those seats were filled before the advent of nationalism.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 06:05:47 AM by Tzimis »

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2018, 06:17:37 AM »
^Orthodoxy predates Nationalism.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2018, 07:31:42 AM »
^Orthodoxy predates Nationalism.
Yes but, political systems like Rome and St Constantine in particular gave the church wings.

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2018, 08:18:37 AM »
But the Antiochian patriarch, despite being "Antiochian" (now it's in Turkey too) resides in Damascus and he is also its metropolitan.
Well, then probably one would need to wait for the Archbishop of Athens to die?

Or just have an abp emeritus.

And btw, what would be the advantage? the AP is culturally Arabic and that's ok, but the EP claims to be ecumenical. Some accuse him already of being too Greek, wouldn't moving to Greece make things worse in this respect?

Advantes? Less Greek Orthodox Churches and stronger real power of the EP, so also good for the image of the EP in the world.
The EP is Greek. It has such heritage, so it's more natural to be one local Church with the Church of Greece, especially that some lands of Greece are already under the EP. And it would be a great step for releasing GOARCH, ACROD and so on in order to create one OCA (Orthodox Church in/of America).


Edit: and the AP is more complex in its identity (but yeah, it's true it's primary Arabic).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 08:19:29 AM by Dominika »
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2018, 09:40:37 AM »
the AP is culturally Arabic and that's ok, but the EP claims to be ecumenical. Some accuse him already of being too Greek, wouldn't moving to Greece make things worse in this respect?

What does “ecumenical” mean?
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2018, 11:58:47 AM »
The EP is Greek. It has such heritage, so it's more natural to be one local Church with the Church of Greece, especially that some lands of Greece are already under the EP.

The USA is more real power than Greece.

And it would be a great step for releasing GOARCH, ACROD and so on in order to create one OCA (Orthodox Church in/of America).
Unrealistic. If America is granted autocephaly, then in a way that keeps it closely linked to the EP. Probably they are experimenting in Ukraine how to do that / how to formulate a suitable tomos for that. And probably it would mean choosing a name that doesn't sound like "OCA".

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2018, 01:47:42 PM »
The EP is Greek. It has such heritage, so it's more natural to be one local Church with the Church of Greece, especially that some lands of Greece are already under the EP.

The USA is more real power than Greece.
It's about the identity, heritage etc.

And it would be a great step for releasing GOARCH, ACROD and so on in order to create one OCA (Orthodox Church in/of America).
Unrealistic. If America is granted autocephaly, then in a way that keeps it closely linked to the EP. Probably they are experimenting in Ukraine how to do that / how to formulate a suitable tomos for that. And probably it would mean choosing a name that doesn't sound like "OCA".

For God there is no impossible thing. And I doubt such situation may be maintaed over e.g next 200 years.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2018, 01:53:08 PM »
I love how people are formulating dreams and plans on behalf of a hierarch, whom they have never met, who has never said he will do any of these things.

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2018, 01:59:49 PM »
I love how people are formulating dreams and plans on behalf of a hierarch,
Yeah, I think most of such discussions are pointless, since we are not decisive but on the other hand... The opinion of the faithful (above all, the reception of the decisions) counts in Orthodoxy.

whom they have never met,
I've met many hierarchs, some of them remember my name etc. Last Sunday I talked with the Antiochian patriarch. But that's not the point.

who has never said he will do any of these things.
It's not so obvious and easy.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2018, 02:02:05 PM »
I love how people are formulating dreams and plans on behalf of a hierarch, whom they have never met, who has never said he will do any of these things.

He's a public figure. You don't have to meet him to have an opinion of his public conduct. As for the present question- has he ever announced his intention to revoke Greece's autocephaly? No. But his spokesmen have indicated that he has the right to do this. Archbishop Job of Telmessos actually threatened to revoke autocephaly from Russia. In both cases (Russia and Greece) it can't happen, of course, but this isn't from a lack of will from the Phanar. What the Phanar has in Ukraine, they lack in Russia and Greece- that is, a ruling power willing to enforce the Phanar's wild claims.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2018, 01:29:55 PM »
"No, I did not think it could be true."

But personally I'm for unification of the EP and the Church of Greece: EP patriarch of Constantinople, but residing in Athens. Now there is no sense for multiple Greek Orthodox Churches.

Despite the management problems we are experiencing due to bad actors in the Holy Synod, and this deeply unpleasant schism, I think the remaining Eastern Orthodox Christians in Turkey are a critically endangered religious minority, and could be ethnically “cleansed” from Fanar just as they were recently cleansed from Bursa/Chalcedon and previously removed from Nicea/Edirne, Ephesus, Caesarea, and other sacred places, if in addition to the Patriarchs of Antioch being in Damascus, the Patriarch of Constantinople was in Athens.  However, a radical reorientation of Constantinople into a “mission Patriarchate” with a goal being to spread Christianity in Turkey, just as the Patriarch of Alexandria went from shepherding a tiny flock of surviving Alexandrian Greeks to running missions all across Africa, might well be facilitated by transferring the Greek parishes in Thessalonika and Crete to Athens, as well as the overseas dioceses.

A mass Greek emigration into Turkey might also help to facilitate this; without wishing to get too political I find myself wishing Turkey’s bid to join the EU orcould be restarted and expedited so as to facilitate free movement of people, or an alternative treaty, perhaps one to normalize the situation in Cyprus, negotiated to accomplish the same thing, and thus reverse the forced population transfer of the 1920s which depopulated some of the cities most precious to Christendom, like Ephesus and Caesarsa in Cappadocia, of most of their Christian population.  Of course this would mean readmitting Turks removed from Greece, but my view is the population transfer agreement between Turkey and Greece was, on sociological terms, almost directly equivalent to two brothers agreeing by mutual extent to shoot each other in the kneecaps.  Ethnic cleansing by mutual consent is still ethnic cleansing.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2018, 03:47:01 PM »
North America
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2018, 03:57:32 PM »
North America

Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2018, 04:01:55 PM »
North America

Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of.

Why don't you compose the epic like JRR TOLKIEN
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2018, 04:33:39 PM »
North America

Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of.

Why don't you compose the epic like JRR TOLKIEN

If Iconodule wrote an epic I would read it, but I also trust it would be entirely unlike Tolkien.  I expect  I might have a cameo as a comic figure who inadvertantly impales himself on a candelabra.
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2018, 04:47:16 PM »
the AP is culturally Arabic and that's ok, but the EP claims to be ecumenical. Some accuse him already of being too Greek, wouldn't moving to Greece make things worse in this respect?

What does “ecumenical” mean?

Representing multiple church groups and denominations
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2018, 04:49:26 PM »
Too Greek?

How is a person supposed to un-Greek themselves?
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2018, 04:58:02 PM »
Too Greek?

How is a person supposed to un-Greek themselves?

Who/what are you responding to?
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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2018, 05:06:35 PM »
Too Greek?

How is a person supposed to un-Greek themselves?

I think you posted in the wrong thread m’lady.
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Offline biro

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2018, 06:23:58 PM »
Okay.  ???
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Offline WPM

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2018, 07:55:26 PM »
Greece is a country in Europe.
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Offline iohanne

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2018, 11:04:32 PM »
I have to admit that the papo-panic on this thread as of late is a little unreal to me but it could be my papist baggage and the fact that I'm still a little shaky as to the facts about the whole EP-MP tiff. 

I don't mean to offend the OP or judge but if I were to share my instinct when I first read the original post -- was I the only person to think this thread felt a little trolly and click-baity from the get-go?  I mean, I guess I should have guessed it was just another catharsis thread to allow venting for peeps-who-have-beef-with-the-EP.   OF course, I have no stake in the matter being not in communion with the Orthodox around the world (yet?) and I'm really confused on who to side here.  As a baptised (ex-?) Catholic who has long ago left the papal claims behind and who is freshly weary and suspicious of anything that looks papist, this issue is still not so black and white to me as to who's in the right and who's in the wrong. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:04:56 PM by iohanne »

Offline theistgal

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2018, 01:16:22 AM »
Greece is a country in Europe.

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was one of the Lower 48.  ;)
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Offline Luke

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Re: EP revokes Greece's Autocephaly
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2018, 01:37:18 AM »
And then there is Georgia. :)