Author Topic: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly  (Read 2459 times)

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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2018, 04:18:38 PM »
The "Orthodox Bishop of Rome" is a fantasy.

True.  It's not like the heresiarch is changing anytime soon.

Heresiarchs. If we cannot reestablish a Roman Patriarchate that it will be forever noncanonical whether the OCA enters the scene or not.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2018, 04:45:40 PM »
Interestingly, the Archdiocese's communique quotes Metropolitan John Zizioulas: Do a council or synod form a structure located above the bishop? The answer to this question can only be negative from an ecclesiastical point of view. Ecclesiologically speaking, there is nothing superior to the bishop in the Church.

I've wondered before how such statements from Metropolitan John can be reconciled with the ecclesiology currently being blurted out by various EP spokesmen.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2018, 05:50:30 PM »
Interestingly, the Archdiocese's communique quotes Metropolitan John Zizioulas: Do a council or synod form a structure located above the bishop? The answer to this question can only be negative from an ecclesiastical point of view. Ecclesiologically speaking, there is nothing superior to the bishop in the Church.

I've wondered before how such statements from Metropolitan John can be reconciled with the ecclesiology currently being blurted out by various EP spokesmen.

Perhaps it would be wise to look at the context and actual words of the quote from Metropolitan John Zizioulas.  For example, a council can vote to depose one specific bishop.

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2018, 08:21:27 PM »

Are there other realistic options?

We'll see, I guess. I have no idea.

Well, Istanbul has turned many friends into enemies.  So, Antiochians, POC, or the Church of Czechia and Slovakia would be  justice.

POC (and Antioch I believe too) is neutral with an inclination (not strong support) toward Moscow. We have had really good realtions with Phanar and I doubt it would be changed dramatically in a few months.

Do you think the POC would accept parishes from rue daru?

There is no reason they should be part of the POC.

Why? They're under Constantinople now, there's no reason for that either...and doesn't the Polish Orthodox Church already have a diocese in Brazil?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2018, 08:54:48 PM »
Whether Antioch would accept them I cannot say, but I don’t think they’d have as much of a problem with Russian liturgics in Russian tradition parishes in their jurisdiction as you seem to think.
Interesting point. Could you give examples of such parishes, please?

I don’t know of any specific parishes like this.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 09:16:42 PM »
A good portion of their Church in North America uses Russian music and, in older churches, liturgical furniture.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 09:23:13 PM »
Thread title reminded me of the letter of Met. Philaret.

Quote
And to which I then added: but tell me, what sort of “common flock” could I have with the Parisians, when their head, Archbishop Georgy, while passing by our Memorial Church in Brussels, spits in its direction with the words — “Ugh, the Karlovci contagion!”...

But I, I didn’t get into an altercation with her, but only thought to myself: “Ugh, the Exarchate contagion”... For she was one of the “Parisians”...

-- Letter To Abbess Magdalena

Good times, good times...

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2018, 09:47:50 PM »
liturgical furniture.

That's what irishpilgrim calls women, isn't it?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 09:53:56 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2018, 10:04:59 PM »
A good portion of their Church in North America uses Russian music and, in older churches, liturgical furniture.

Can you give examples, please? The North American Antiochian liturgies I see on Youtube use Byzantine / Antiochian music.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2018, 10:10:32 PM »
A good portion of their Church in North America uses Russian music and, in older churches, liturgical furniture.

Can you give examples, please? The North American Antiochian liturgies I see on Youtube use Byzantine / Antiochian music.

Every Antiochian church I've been to has had at least one Russian tune in the liturgy, including the parish that was predominantly Lebanese. My experience may be strictly regional. But since the Russians were historically under the Antiochians in the U.S., I wouldn't be surprised to know their influence was there in some of the northeastern churches.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 10:12:46 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2018, 10:11:21 PM »
Why? They're under Constantinople now, there's no reason for that either...

There are two reasons
1) History, Communism in Russia
2) Constantinople's ecclesiology seeing itself as default wherever no canonical jurisdiction has a caninonical territory recognised by Constantinople

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2018, 10:12:46 PM »
Every Antiochian church I've been to has had at least one Russian tune in the liturgy, including the parish that was predominantly Lebanese.

Would they accept a full Russian-style liturgy? In Ben Lomond they didn't.
Any parish under Antioch having that now?

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2018, 10:16:51 PM »
Furniture?
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2018, 10:18:22 PM »
Every Antiochian church I've been to has had at least one Russian tune in the liturgy, including the parish that was predominantly Lebanese.

Would they accept a full Russian-style liturgy? In Ben Lomond they didn't.
Any parish under Antioch having that now?

Ben Lomond wasn't a normal situation.

The parish I currently attend (in the diocese of Miami) seems to draw from all sorts of musical traditions, including using American settings. It was a little more Byzantine when the bishop showed up, but if that's what the boss man knows, that's what you use.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2018, 10:40:54 PM »
I'm actually holding out for a Paris Exarchate Outside France missionary parish to start nearby.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2018, 04:02:41 AM »
But OCAOA is just as silly ecclesiologically as ROCOR.

+1

I don't think adding to more jurisdictional confusion helps; a.

Exactly.

Europe is not America.

Yeah, and what's the sense of jurisdiction of the "new" countries/continent over the "old" one?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2018, 06:00:11 AM »
Yeah, and what's the sense of jurisdiction of the "new" countries/continent over the "old" one?

First of all, Common history / mindset of OCA and the Exarchate. Also, Orthodoxy in France has a similar age to Orthodoxy in North America. So it's not an issue of old vs new.

Secondly, the Exarchate wants to continue existing as a diocese together and be in communion with both EP and MP. That would be possible under the OCA. Where else would that be possible? Probably any other jurisdiction would break them up and make them join local dioceses. Well, maybe except Alexandria, which doesn't have a local diocese in Western Europe.

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2018, 08:11:37 AM »
Yeah, and what's the sense of jurisdiction of the "new" countries/continent over the "old" one?

First of all, Common history / mindset of OCA and the Exarchate. Also, Orthodoxy in France has a similar age to Orthodoxy in North America. So it's not an issue of old vs new.
It is an issue, as it's abouthe roots, so it can't be turn upside down. And Orthodoxy was in France earlier, ofc, tehre was a huge pause, but still...
Common mindset - maybe (history definitely no, maybe similar), but it doesn't mean exarchate, being so European, should be part of an American Church. It doesn't make any sense.

Secondly, the Exarchate wants to continue existing as a diocese together
I'm not so sure.

and be in communion with both EP and MP.
That's true. But rather for every Church except the main "characters" of the conflict.

Well, maybe except Alexandria, which doesn't have a local diocese in Western Europe.
And that's good it doesn't have.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2018, 10:55:52 AM »
Interestingly, the Archdiocese's communique quotes Metropolitan John Zizioulas: Do a council or synod form a structure located above the bishop? The answer to this question can only be negative from an ecclesiastical point of view. Ecclesiologically speaking, there is nothing superior to the bishop in the Church.

I've wondered before how such statements from Metropolitan John can be reconciled with the ecclesiology currently being blurted out by various EP spokesmen.

Perhaps it would be wise to look at the context and actual words of the quote from Metropolitan John Zizioulas.  For example, a council can vote to depose one specific bishop.
ONLY for cause.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2018, 10:59:07 AM »
A good portion of their Church in North America uses Russian music and, in older churches, liturgical furniture.

Can you give examples, please? The North American Antiochian liturgies I see on Youtube use Byzantine / Antiochian music.
A lot of Russian melodies are used in English. Even in Arab parishes. Especially those who have choirs instead of cantors.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2018, 10:59:30 AM »
Interestingly, the Archdiocese's communique quotes Metropolitan John Zizioulas: Do a council or synod form a structure located above the bishop? The answer to this question can only be negative from an ecclesiastical point of view. Ecclesiologically speaking, there is nothing superior to the bishop in the Church.

I've wondered before how such statements from Metropolitan John can be reconciled with the ecclesiology currently being blurted out by various EP spokesmen.

Perhaps it would be wise to look at the context and actual words of the quote from Metropolitan John Zizioulas.  For example, a council can vote to depose one specific bishop.
ONLY for cause.
The cause cannot be "the primus sine paribus says so."

Exactly. Conciliarity is not dictatorship by committee, let alone by a primate.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2018, 11:00:17 AM »
Why? They're under Constantinople now, there's no reason for that either...

There are two reasons
1) History, Communism in Russia
2) Constantinople's ecclesiology seeing itself as default wherever no canonical jurisdiction has a caninonical territory recognised by Constantinople
Your point 2) emphasis kijaboy's point that there is no reason.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2018, 11:11:52 AM »
Interestingly, the Archdiocese's communique quotes Metropolitan John Zizioulas: Do a council or synod form a structure located above the bishop? The answer to this question can only be negative from an ecclesiastical point of view. Ecclesiologically speaking, there is nothing superior to the bishop in the Church.

I've wondered before how such statements from Metropolitan John can be reconciled with the ecclesiology currently being blurted out by various EP spokesmen.

Perhaps it would be wise to look at the context and actual words of the quote from Metropolitan John Zizioulas.  For example, a council can vote to depose one specific bishop.

If you actually care to look at the actual words of Metropolitan John, you can do so here. You will see that Archbishop Jean reflects the Metropolitan of Pergamon's thought accurately. One thing that sticks out is the statement, "every kind of Synod that excludes the presence of bishops (unless there is an unavoidable historical necessity) from participating in a Synod, is considered a serious deviation."

What unavoidable historical necessity was there  to exclude Archbishop Jean- who is accused of no wrongdoing- from the synod deciding the status of his archdiocese? In fact, not only excluding him from the synod but not even consulting with him or advising him that the question was about to be raised? So, by the standard of Metropolitan John Zizioulas, widely acknowledged as one of the EP's pre-eminent living theologians, what the synod of Constantinople did was a grave abuse and deviation.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2018, 12:06:17 PM »
It's important to realize that from the EP's perspective, Abp Jean isn't canonically the bishop of his diocese, but rather the archbishop of some random nominal see who has been given the task of administrating the archdiocese.

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2018, 12:15:42 PM »
Right. Hence, Bishop Gregory of Nyssa is now Metropolitan Gregory of Nyssa but ACROD does not become ACROM.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2018, 12:43:50 PM »
Right. Hence, Bishop Gregory of Nyssa is now Metropolitan Gregory of Nyssa but ACROD does not become ACROM.

Which effectively means that its people also have no recourse if Constantinople tries to force a major change on them.

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2018, 12:56:08 PM »
Right. Hence, Bishop Gregory of Nyssa is now Metropolitan Gregory of Nyssa but ACROD does not become ACROM.

Which effectively means that its people also have no recourse if Constantinople tries to force a major change on them.

Well, they have one advantage in that the church buildings are owned by the congregation, not the diocese. I can't say for sure but I don't think the people would generally like the idea of being dissolved into GOArch.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2018, 01:13:05 PM »
Interestingly, the Archdiocese's communique quotes Metropolitan John Zizioulas: Do a council or synod form a structure located above the bishop? The answer to this question can only be negative from an ecclesiastical point of view. Ecclesiologically speaking, there is nothing superior to the bishop in the Church.

I've wondered before how such statements from Metropolitan John can be reconciled with the ecclesiology currently being blurted out by various EP spokesmen.

Perhaps it would be wise to look at the context and actual words of the quote from Metropolitan John Zizioulas.  For example, a council can vote to depose one specific bishop.

If you actually care to look at the actual words of Metropolitan John, you can do so here. You will see that Archbishop Jean reflects the Metropolitan of Pergamon's thought accurately. One thing that sticks out is the statement, "every kind of Synod that excludes the presence of bishops (unless there is an unavoidable historical necessity) from participating in a Synod, is considered a serious deviation."

What unavoidable historical necessity was there  to exclude Archbishop Jean- who is accused of no wrongdoing- from the synod deciding the status of his archdiocese? In fact, not only excluding him from the synod but not even consulting with him or advising him that the question was about to be raised? So, by the standard of Metropolitan John Zizioulas, widely acknowledged as one of the EP's pre-eminent living theologians, what the synod of Constantinople did was a grave abuse and deviation.
My bishop and new auxiliary bishop aren't on the Holy Synod either. In fact it's a very limited selection.

How you get there I'm not sure, but it is highly likely there are other considerations besides the wisdom and holiness of the bishops chosen that are at work.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2018, 01:42:17 PM »
A certain portion of the synod is rotated periodically, so it's possible that your bishop can be on there later. For example Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh was on there until early this year, as I recall. But of course that doesn't justify excluding from deliberations bishops directly affected by them.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2018, 02:42:32 PM »
Well, they have one advantage in that the church buildings are owned by the congregation, not the diocese. I can't say for sure but I don't think the people would generally like the idea of being dissolved into GOArch.

It could be done the other way around: Bringing Greek parishes in the geographical core area of ACROD under ACROD's jurisdiction. And in a second step, making it officially the geographical diocese for that area.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 02:43:50 PM by Gorazd »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2018, 02:45:46 PM »
Well, they have one advantage in that the church buildings are owned by the congregation, not the diocese. I can't say for sure but I don't think the people would generally like the idea of being dissolved into GOArch.

It could be done the other way around: Bringing Greek parishes in the geographical core area of ACROD under ACROD's jurisdiction. And in a second step, making it officially the geographical diocese for that area.

That would never happen. Even in the ACROD heartland of Pennsylvania the Greek parishes outnumber them.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2018, 03:04:49 PM »
That would never happen. Even in the ACROD heartland of Pennsylvania the Greek parishes outnumber them.

Why not? I think they wouldn't mind being under a Greek bishop.

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2018, 03:16:10 PM »
That would never happen. Even in the ACROD heartland of Pennsylvania the Greek parishes outnumber them.

Why not? I think they wouldn't mind being under a Greek bishop.

The idea of ACROD with a majority of Greek parishes just doesn't make sense. It would effectively be the same as dissolving ACROD into GOArch.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2018, 03:46:47 PM »
That would never happen. Even in the ACROD heartland of Pennsylvania the Greek parishes outnumber them.

Why not? I think they wouldn't mind being under a Greek bishop.

The idea of ACROD with a majority of Greek parishes just doesn't make sense. It would effectively be the same as dissolving ACROD into GOArch.
What doesn't make sense is having the Greek parish under one bishop, the Ukrainian parish under another, and the Carpatho-Russian parish under a third, all in one city. Provided GOARCH gets renamed the three should be consolidated, but only when their bishops agree it's time to do so.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2018, 04:45:17 PM »
The idea of ACROD with a majority of Greek parishes just doesn't make sense. It would effectively be the same as dissolving ACROD into GOArch.
That's why it would make sense. The effect is similar, but it feels smoother to ACRODers: they keep their cathedral, current bishop, current structures. They'll be joined by local Greeks and Ukrainians. Finally it's going to become the EP Diocese of Johnstown in a process of creating non-Ethnic EP jurisdictions in North America.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2018, 05:15:09 PM »
Interestingly, the Archdiocese's communique quotes Metropolitan John Zizioulas: Do a council or synod form a structure located above the bishop? The answer to this question can only be negative from an ecclesiastical point of view. Ecclesiologically speaking, there is nothing superior to the bishop in the Church.

I've wondered before how such statements from Metropolitan John can be reconciled with the ecclesiology currently being blurted out by various EP spokesmen.

Perhaps it would be wise to look at the context and actual words of the quote from Metropolitan John Zizioulas.  For example, a council can vote to depose one specific bishop.

If you actually care to look at the actual words of Metropolitan John, you can do so here. You will see that Archbishop Jean reflects the Metropolitan of Pergamon's thought accurately. One thing that sticks out is the statement, "every kind of Synod that excludes the presence of bishops (unless there is an unavoidable historical necessity) from participating in a Synod, is considered a serious deviation."

What unavoidable historical necessity was there  to exclude Archbishop Jean- who is accused of no wrongdoing- from the synod deciding the status of his archdiocese? In fact, not only excluding him from the synod but not even consulting with him or advising him that the question was about to be raised? So, by the standard of Metropolitan John Zizioulas, widely acknowledged as one of the EP's pre-eminent living theologians, what the synod of Constantinople did was a grave abuse and deviation.
in fact, the cardinal sin which gave Ephesus II the title "Robber Council."
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2018, 05:17:20 PM »
The idea of ACROD with a majority of Greek parishes just doesn't make sense. It would effectively be the same as dissolving ACROD into GOArch.
That's why it would make sense. The effect is similar, but it feels smoother to ACRODers: they keep their cathedral, current bishop, current structures. They'll be joined by local Greeks and Ukrainians. Finally it's going to become the EP Diocese of Johnstown in a process of creating non-Ethnic EP jurisdictions in North America.
or just one big ethnic jurisdiction in North America-Phanariot.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2018, 05:26:22 PM »
The idea of ACROD with a majority of Greek parishes just doesn't make sense. It would effectively be the same as dissolving ACROD into GOArch.
That's why it would make sense. The effect is similar, but it feels smoother to ACRODers: they keep their cathedral, current bishop, current structures. They'll be joined by local Greeks and Ukrainians. Finally it's going to become the EP Diocese of Johnstown in a process of creating non-Ethnic EP jurisdictions in North America.
or just one big ethnic jurisdiction in North America-Phanariot.

Judging from Patriarch Bartholomew's recent statements about the "precedence" of "our genos," the Slavic parishes would be as a drop of vinegar dissolving into the ocean of Phanariot Romiosyne. 
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2018, 04:44:57 PM »
Whether Antioch would accept them I cannot say, but I don’t think they’d have as much of a problem with Russian liturgics in Russian tradition parishes in their jurisdiction as you seem to think.
Interesting point. Could you give examples of such parishes, please?

I don’t know of any specific parishes like this.

Their parish Tulsa, Oklahoma and their parish in Montreal, Canada use four part harmony and OCA music during the Divine Liturgy.  The Tulsa parish compromises with received tradition by doing Orthros in Byzantine Chant in English at a Greek-style chant stand.

The Antiochian Parish in downtown LA uses heavily OCA type English music.

The only Antiochian parish I can think of outside of the Levant which tends to use Byzantine Chant for everything is St. Mary of Livonia Antiochian Church, whose liturgical videos are posted on YouTube.  They have a beautiful church; I can’t remember their location.

~

As an aside, there is a Greek Orthodox parish, St. George’s of Southbay, which has a similiar interior appearance except the apse is decorated with a backdrop of green vines surrounding the mercy seat icon, IIRC, rather than a light blue background surrounding it like at St. Mary of Livonia, which uses a broader range of liturgical music, but when they do Byzantine chant, it often sounds stunning as there is no ison and one of their cantors is female.  I really get bored with the monastic style of Byzantine Chant where you have only deep male voices singing the antiphonal verses and an even deeper ison, which is the style of the Mount Lebanon Choir, but I will say the Mount Lebanon Choir’s recording of the Divine Liturgy in English rivals that of Cappela Romana as being the best such recording in traditional Byzantine chant.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2018, 04:46:04 PM »
The idea of ACROD with a majority of Greek parishes just doesn't make sense. It would effectively be the same as dissolving ACROD into GOArch.
That's why it would make sense. The effect is similar, but it feels smoother to ACRODers: they keep their cathedral, current bishop, current structures. They'll be joined by local Greeks and Ukrainians. Finally it's going to become the EP Diocese of Johnstown in a process of creating non-Ethnic EP jurisdictions in North America.
or just one big ethnic jurisdiction in North America-Phanariot.

Judging from Patriarch Bartholomew's recent statements about the "precedence" of "our genos," the Slavic parishes would be as a drop of vinegar dissolving into the ocean of Phanariot Romiosyne.

Ecclesiological eutychianism!  Although I am convinced His All Holiness is not driving this bus.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2018, 04:57:49 PM »
Although I am convinced His All Holiness is not driving this bus.

Ultimately, doesn't the direction of the bus matter more than who's driving it?

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2018, 05:03:26 PM »
I've only visited a few Antiochian parishes and they weren't very different from any OCA parish I've been to.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 05:04:03 PM by hecma925 »
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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2018, 05:29:26 PM »
The only Antiochian parish I can think of outside of the Levant which tends to use Byzantine Chant for everything is St. Mary of Livonia Antiochian Church, whose liturgical videos are posted on YouTube.  They have a beautiful church; I can’t remember their location.
THis one? No, e.g Holy Holy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8jhsafk-iY

  I really get bored with the monastic style of Byzantine Chant where you have only deep male voices singing the antiphonal verses and an even deeper ison, which is the style of the Mount Lebanon Choir, but I will say the Mount Lebanon Choir’s recording of the Divine Liturgy in English rivals that of Cappela Romana as being the best such recording in traditional Byzantine chant.
1. It sound much better live and at service not as a concert
2. the Mount Lebanon Choir (SEM) actually performs Arabic(Semitic)-Byzantine chant so it's not the same a Greek monastic Byzantine chant. As for Arabs, I think only Hamatoura monastery does it in such way.
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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2018, 06:07:13 PM »
The only Antiochian parish I can think of outside of the Levant which tends to use Byzantine Chant for everything is St. Mary of Livonia Antiochian Church, whose liturgical videos are posted on YouTube.  They have a beautiful church; I can’t remember their location.

It's in Michigan.

Funnily enough, one of the guys chanting in some of their older videos was the first person to get me to take Orthodoxy seriously even though a couple of people I knew had studied it (one converted, the other didn't). I worked the bar in the coffee shop he frequented at the time he was learning to chant. He was never pushy, but talked about loving his faith a lot and told me the places I could find out more. Funny guy.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Rue Daru to hold Archdiocesan Assembly
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2018, 02:15:48 PM »
The only Antiochian parish I can think of outside of the Levant which tends to use Byzantine Chant for everything is St. Mary of Livonia Antiochian Church, whose liturgical videos are posted on YouTube.  They have a beautiful church; I can’t remember their location.
THis one? No, e.g Holy Holy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8jhsafk-iY

Quote


Weird, I could have sworn they were a Byzantine Chant parish.  I must be confusing them with another parish.  Either that or I am (a) going insane or (b) travelled here from another subtly different dimension in the manner of The Man In The High Castle.



  I really get bored with the monastic style of Byzantine Chant where you have only deep male voices singing the antiphonal verses and an even deeper ison, which is the style of the Mount Lebanon Choir, but I will say the Mount Lebanon Choir’s recording of the Divine Liturgy in English rivals that of Cappela Romana as being the best such recording in traditional Byzantine chant.
1. It sound much better live and at service not as a concert

i agree.   For example, at St. Anthony’s in Florence, the effect at the midnignt liturgies is beautiful and eerie in an elegant way.  Conversely, Slavonic four part harmony often sounds better in concert, although there are times I have heard it in parishes and it has been exquisitely beautiful, for example, Holy Wednesday at a ROCA-A parish with Let My Prayer Arise by Chesnokov was incredibly beautiful.   However other parishes struggle to sing the basic Obikhod.


Quote
2. the Mount Lebanon Choir (SEM) actually performs Arabic(Semitic)-Byzantine chant so it's not the same a Greek monastic Byzantine chant. As for Arabs, I think only Hamatoura monastery does it in such way.

Indeed, although I have to confess that the so-called Syro-Byzantine chant is close enough melodically and structurally to Athonite Byzantine Chant that it is hard to clearly tell them apart; most of the variations seem to be accomodations of the Arabic language.  I also have to confess I slightly prefer the Arabic version.

In like manner I also prefer Romanian Byzantine chant; I read somewhere the Romanian chant sometimes adds an additional voice, alongside the main antiphonal melody and the Ison; if this is the case I haven’t noticed it, and it sounds nothing like triphonal Georgian chant, but the articulation of consonants in Romanian strikes me as more ideally suited to the Byzantine chant form.

My favorite form of Byzantine chant is that of Bulgaria.

~

Speaking of Rue Daru, I would be deeply depressed if the EP suppresses them in part because their cathedral in Paris managed to perform the best recordings I have found of Pascha and of Christmas Vespers according to the Russian Slavonic musical tradition.   Their choir at the Paris Cathedral has a joyous triumphant sound, clearly driven by lots of older ladies in the choir who are also very talented, and who can sing well, which produces an elegant vibrato effect that you would not get with younger singers.  So its a high pitched sound which is particularly well suited for the major feasts of the Church.  I suspect they would also be brilliant on certain days of sadness like the 12 Gospels Service and Matins on Great and Holy Friday, before the music takes on a triumphant, victorious sound.

There is a ROCOR parish in Wilkes Barre who has a soprano who leads the choir who is elderly and has a similiarly exquisite voice.  Anyone who says older people can’t sing as well as younger people is a prejudiced ageist fool, I am sure we can agree (although occasionally older people suffer injuries to their larynx which terminates their singing career, also throat cancer, but that can also happen to the young).  And other people with beautiful voices can never sing, in youth or old age, for example, William Shatner. :P

While we are on the subject of totally bizarre ecclesiastical memberships for Rue Daru, I should point out that Cyprus is an example of an Archdiocese which is autocephalous.  Of course they have been autocephalous since time immemorial, but still, an archdiocese can be autocephalous, and that strikes me as being the most viable option for the Rue Daru, because I expect that the other churches might be too afraid of either the MP or the EP to enter into communion with them.

That said, if we are going to make freaky suggestions as to which autocephalous church they should join, I would like to see them become the Russian Orthodox Vicarate of one of the three Syriac Orthodox churches, or alternately the Assyrian Church of the East.  This would prove to the world that whichever Syriac church entered into communion with them, had no problems with the Byzantine Rite or EO theology.  ;)
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