Author Topic: annihilationism  (Read 859 times)

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Offline melkite

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annihilationism
« on: November 23, 2018, 11:17:15 PM »
Is there any room for the possibility of some souls to cease to exist in Orthodox theology?

Offline Tzimis

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2018, 04:18:31 PM »
Some would argue its the main premises.

Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 09:51:04 PM »
In what way is it the main premise?

Offline Briven

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 10:24:25 PM »
In what way is it the main premise?

In no way.

Annihilationism is a grave error and the "comfort" of the unrepentant sinner.
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Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 11:04:28 PM »
In no way.

Annihilationism is a grave error and the "comfort" of the unrepentant sinner.

Can it be a possibility for someone who truly repents, but also has no desire to continue existing after death?

Offline Briven

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 11:38:38 PM »
In no way.

Annihilationism is a grave error and the "comfort" of the unrepentant sinner.

Can it be a possibility for someone who truly repents, but also has no desire to continue existing after death?

If they truly repent they will desire God.

It is not true repentance if one desires annihilation after death.
“God,”
The words rumbled:
“There is much suffering,
But the church is alive. "

 “How long, Archpriest, are we to suffer thus?” I answered: “Until our very death, Markovna!” And she replied, with a sigh: “So be it, Petrovich, let us plod on.” - Life of Avvakum by Himself

Nastasya, Nastasya, be
patient and do not cry:
Not every happiness
Comes in the clothing of fortune.

St. Avvakum, pray for us!

St. Ambrose, pray for us!

My blog: http://pustozersk.blogspot.com

Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 12:26:24 AM »
I don't see how it follows that if someone is truly sorrowful for their sins, that they will then necessarily be glad to exist, or have the desire to exist without end.

Offline hecma925

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 12:28:17 AM »
What is the point of such a desire?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 08:45:24 AM »
What is the point of such a desire?

Which one?  To exist without end or to cease to exist?

Offline hecma925

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 09:21:07 AM »
What is the point of such a desire?

Which one?  To exist without end or to cease to exist?

Either.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 10:13:01 AM »
I don't see how it follows that if someone is truly sorrowful for their sins, that they will then necessarily be glad to exist, or have the desire to exist without end.

Since that is God's desire for us, who brought us into being, how could a truly repentant person desire his own annihilation?
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 10:49:06 AM »
I don't see how it follows that if someone is truly sorrowful for their sins, that they will then necessarily be glad to exist, or have the desire to exist without end.
One can be forgiven and not accept that forgiveness. This was the case for Judas. Who Christ forgave but because of his own harshness of judgment would not yield towards Gods love. We didn't will our own existence. It was given us. Many say that its not our choosing. That is what hell is. A denial of existence.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 10:55:01 AM by Tzimis »

Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 01:37:52 PM »
Either.

Well, I guess the desire to exist forever would be if someone thinks existing forever would cause them happiness, and the desire to cease to exist would be if someone thinks existing forever would cause them suffering of some sort.

Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 01:43:30 PM »
Since that is God's desire for us, who brought us into being, how could a truly repentant person desire his own annihilation?

Because their existence causes them pain?  Recognizing, even accepting, that God's desire for us to exist doesn't make pain go away, even if a person has repented of their sins.  Or are you suggesting that merely finding life to be painful or unbearable means one has not truly repented of their sin?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 01:48:48 PM »
Perhaps you are conflating two things... finding life on earth painful and wanting it to end, and hoping for eternal self-annihilation. They're quite different. If someone finds continued life with God painful then it is because he values something other than God more than God.
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Offline WPM

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2018, 01:56:08 PM »
Looks like question about man's purpose and existence.
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Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2018, 02:31:22 PM »
One can be forgiven and not accept that forgiveness. This was the case for Judas. Who Christ forgave but because of his own harshness of judgment would not yield towards Gods love. We didn't will our own existence. It was given us. Many say that its not our choosing. That is what hell is. A denial of existence.

That's kind of more what I'm getting at.  What if, for whatever reason, a person just doesn't want to exist?  Is the desire to not exist itself a sin?  Is the desire to not experience suffering a sin?

God cannot make what has happened unhappen.  If a person's happiness is tied up in what has happened, or rather, what didn't happen, how can God's love ever wipe away every tear?  For example, a mother who has lost a child.  Isn't it a bit pretentious to say that God's love should just make that mother no longer grieve the loss of watching their child grow up, maybe get married and have a family of it's own?  Even if they are reunited with the soul of their child, the loss of a missed life cannot be repaired.  What if that person, knowing that heaven would be amazing, would still rather not exist at all, than to spend eternity with a thorn, of any size, in their side?  Can God not allow that person to cease to exist?  Or is hell just heaven with that thorn in the side that?

Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2018, 03:04:25 PM »
Perhaps you are conflating two things... finding life on earth painful and wanting it to end, and hoping for eternal self-annihilation. They're quite different. If someone finds continued life with God painful then it is because he values something other than God more than God.

This sounds very either/or.  Either we find all of our meaning directly through God (rather than directly through him and indirectly through his creation) or we're not valuing him enough.  Even if a person recognizes that God is more important, this sounds as if the value we place in his creation must necessarily drop to zero, or otherwise we're not valuing God enough.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 03:04:52 PM by melkite »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2018, 04:30:51 PM »
One can be forgiven and not accept that forgiveness. This was the case for Judas. Who Christ forgave but because of his own harshness of judgment would not yield towards Gods love. We didn't will our own existence. It was given us. Many say that its not our choosing. That is what hell is. A denial of existence.

That's kind of more what I'm getting at.  What if, for whatever reason, a person just doesn't want to exist?  Is the desire to not exist itself a sin?  Is the desire to not experience suffering a sin?

God cannot make what has happened unhappen.  If a person's happiness is tied up in what has happened, or rather, what didn't happen, how can God's love ever wipe away every tear?  For example, a mother who has lost a child.  Isn't it a bit pretentious to say that God's love should just make that mother no longer grieve the loss of watching their child grow up, maybe get married and have a family of it's own?  Even if they are reunited with the soul of their child, the loss of a missed life cannot be repaired.  What if that person, knowing that heaven would be amazing, would still rather not exist at all, than to spend eternity with a thorn, of any size, in their side?  Can God not allow that person to cease to exist?  Or is hell just heaven with that thorn in the side that?
Christ said he will wipe away every tear. Powerful words.. The promised life isnt stagnant.  So that child will have room to grow in the new heaven and earth.  It is a perfecting of what we already have.
 As far as not wanting to exist.  When a person decides to go against gods intent and their nature will. They make a decision towards non existance. They are essentially saying to god. I don't want what your giving me. This is the case for everyone who sins. Existance in this case is torment. That torment begins in this life. People who sin are already in hell. So its a nature response of being in sin to not want to exist. Christ forgives everyone unconditionally. Its our response to that forgiveness that condemns us and our willingness to not put our faith in Christs promise. Its a short circuit in the brain. One of the fathers writes. That is repaired though fasting and the sacriments.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2018, 05:27:08 PM »
Btw: what you are experiencing is very good. Most people never get to that level of spiritual discernment.

Offline melkite

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2018, 05:44:57 PM »
Btw: what you are experiencing is very good. Most people never get to that level of spiritual discernment.

So then I guess the real question is: do I have any hope of what has happened unhappening?  Or is the only hope I have in no longer experiencing the grief in trying to no longer care about what is causing it?

Offline Tzimis

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2018, 05:56:25 PM »
Btw: what you are experiencing is very good. Most people never get to that level of spiritual discernment.

So then I guess the real question is: do I have any hope of what has happened unhappening?  Or is the only hope I have in no longer experiencing the grief in trying to no longer care about what is causing it?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: annihilationism
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2018, 06:42:37 PM »
We were not called into existence by our own choice, and neither will we cease therefrom by our own choice, for we are not God, but his creatures.
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