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Author Topic: Western Orthodox Mission to start in GTA (Greater Toronto Area)  (Read 2565 times) Average Rating: 0
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Timos
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« on: November 01, 2005, 11:57:49 PM »

http://www.westernorthodox.ca/

Helloy everyone. "ANNOUNCING an Outreach and Informational Mission to the Greater Toronto Region for the Establishment of a Western Rite Parish of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America"

check out the website if you arei n the area and are interested.

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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2005, 01:16:46 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!   Grin
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2005, 01:34:06 PM »

Interesting.  What do you know about this, Timos?  It doesn't look like things have gone very far with this yet.  I notice that the phone number given to ask for info is not a GTA area code (705).  I guess this could be the Barrie area, which could be considered GTA, or Peterbrough, which is not, or someswhere else far away, since 705 covers a huge geographical area. 

So, Timos, do you know more beyond that which you have posted?  I have family who live in the Hamilton area who I might be able to persuade to seek this out, since they are Anglican and sometimes express interest in Orthodox things...

Bob
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Timos
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2005, 02:43:47 PM »

Pravoslavbob, I noticed the same thing...no 416 or 905 area code...On the website it said that there will be future meetings and plans etc...I think for now they are just waiting to see if there is any interest at all before they invest time money and effort into this mission. So if you do know some ppl that might be interested like u said, you can give them a call or email them and just show them u (or ur family members are potentially) interested.

I have extended family who are Italian Catholics and one of them converted to Orthodoxy but she isn't quite used to the Eastern style or I guess it doesn't quite hit home for her as Western worship does- even after almost 20 years of being Orthodox.

You can also always call the Antiochian Archdiocese and ask them what exactly is the deal with this pseudo-mission.
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Timos
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2005, 02:49:01 PM »

Landon777 might know more since he is the one who actually gave the website.

God bless,
                Timos
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Landon77
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2005, 03:36:30 PM »

  I don't know much, just what is on the website.  But if you download the news letter for St. Mark's in Denver, at westernorthodox.com , there is an article at the end that will give you an idea of where the backing for this is coming from.
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Timos
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2005, 05:27:26 PM »

I recieved this email from a subdeacon who is affiliated with this mission in progress:


"We have started some meetings to the north of Toronto and will commence in Toronto proper with an ad campaign in the Toronto Star. There are a few others who have expressed a similar interest to yours. We are starting weekly Prayers in Barrie and hope to get a fair more people gathered in the Greater Toronto Region. This project is only one month old and is now just getting out of the planning stage.
 
There is considerable support in the Antiochian Archdiocese for this effort and we want to do the outreach in a proper and organized manner.
 
About one month ago I and Fr. John Connely met with His Grace Bishop Alexander in Montreal for almost 4 hours and received his Blessing for this project. Bishop Basil (with whom I am in frequent contact with) is very supportive also. Unfortunately some Eastern Orthodox don't understand the Western Rite and have not been too happy about this development.
 
After the first of the year we plan to have a proper public meeting and a series of visiting Clergy come up here. When we get some committed numbers +Alexander is prepared to authorize a formal Mission with a resident Western Rite Orthodox Priest. The Parish location is to be in a central location to the Greater Toronto Region so Barrie (where I live) will not be the prime location.
 
I am working 1/2 time for the Western Rite Vicariate on this project and I do have the time to meet with you and anyone else who is interested.
 
The supervising Priest for this Mission Effort is Fr. John Connely.
 
Currently we have daily Matins (WR Readers Services) at the Our Lady of Walsingham Oratory in Barrie.
 
The Antiochian Western Rite has two forms of the Western Rite;
 
1.) The Gregorian Rite (which is basically the English Translation of the Pre-Vatican II Mass); and;
 
2.) The Rite of St. Tikon which is basically an Orthodox adaptation of the Book of Common Prayer Mass.
 
Additionally many Western Rite Parishes also use the Pre-Vatican II Gregorian Latin Mass from time to time. Also the Western fasts are used, and there is an adaptation of the Liturgical year to the Western Feasts and to commemorate a large number of Western Saints.
 
All in all it should be quite familiar to anyone coming from a Roman Catholic or Anglo Catholic background. It is the same Creed, the same date for Easter, etc.
 
 
There is a fairly large budget for this effort and we expect things to get much more on the go in the next month or so.
 
In Christ,
 
Reader....."
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2005, 01:49:53 PM »

Thanks Timos.  I guess the 705 area code thing could well be Barrie, as I thought.  Interesting.....it could be fascinating to see how this thing works out.  I guess it's partly because Toronto is such a major North American urban hub that I'm interested to see how it turns out.......many of these western rite things have happened in smaller places.....and also I will be able to check it out personally from time to time!

Bob
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2005, 02:38:34 PM »

I have a interrest because A) I really have a desire to see the WRV become well established as a respectful group in the Orthodox world, by proving to be faithful to the Orthodox faith and to prove to be stable and B) I don't think there has yet been a WR mission grow into a parish that wasn't started with a group of people that had long been a group.  In other words, most of our WR parishes, if not all of them, are simply a congregation that has converted together, and that is why they have been able to stay together long enough to become founded in the Orthodox faith.  I hope that makes sense and doesn't just sound like rambling.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2005, 02:44:39 PM by Landon77 » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2005, 02:55:33 PM »

I recieved this email from a subdeacon who is affiliated with this mission in progress:


"...Unfortunately some Eastern Orthodox don't understand the Western Rite and have not been too happy about this development....
This goes w/o saying.  No surprise here.


Additionally many Western Rite Parishes also use the Pre-Vatican II Gregorian Latin Mass from time to time. Also the Western fasts are used, and there is an adaptation of the Liturgical year to the Western Feasts and to commemorate a large number of Western Saints.
And what are theses "Western Fasts"?  No meat on Fridays (not much of a fast)?  I'm VERY curious.   

All in all it should be quite familiar to anyone coming from a Roman Catholic or Anglo Catholic background. It is the same Creed, the same date for Easter, etc.
 "
Same Creed?  So Filioque included?

While informative, the e-mail did leave something things to be desired...
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Timos
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2005, 05:04:54 PM »

Elisha, you raise some valid concerns. I will invite my friend onto the website to register and then he can maybe fill us all on exactly what he meant and what will be going on in the near future.

As for the Creed, I'm pretty sure the Filioque is ommited from it. Even the catholic Church has recently admitted that the filioque was not 100% correct in its clairity.
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2005, 05:11:55 PM »

Quote
And what are theses "Western Fasts"?  No meat on Fridays (not much of a fast)?  I'm VERY curious.   

According to here, a commenter in the Antichian WR states they follow the early 20th-century Catholic practice, which is:

Quote
We make a distinction between FASTING on one hand, and ABSTINENCE on the other. "Abstinence" refers to the quality or kind of food consumed, while "fasting" pertains to the amount of food consumed.

The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and broth made from meat (dairy products are not included). The law of abstinence alone (without fasting) must be observed on all Fridays throughout the year. All who have reached the age of reason (around the age of 7) are bound by the law of abstinence.

The law of fast permits only one full meal a day; but it does not forbid the taking of a small collation in the morning and in the evening. The law of fast must be observed on all days of Lent (Sundays excluded, as not being technically of the "forty days" of Lent).

Both fasting and abstinence must be observed on Ash Wednesday, the Fridays and Saturdays of Lent, the Ember Days, and the Vigils of Pentecost, the Assumption of the Mother of God, All Saints, and the Nativity of Our Lord.

On Sundays and certain Major Holy Days, the law of abstinence, the law of fast, and the law of both fast and abstinence together, are not binding, except on Holy Days during Lent.

Western fasting has never been as extensive as in the East; or, rather, the amount of food may have been restricted just as much, but fish has always been allowed, and in many places dairy as well. Even the ancient Celtic monks, who were notoriously strict about fasting, allowed dairy.
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Reader Polycarp
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2005, 12:44:28 AM »

I am the key contact for the Western Rite Mission effort for the Greater Toronto Region.

To answer a couple of questions:

On the Filioque, it is not in the Creed of ANY Orthodox Church (Western Rite included). I am sorry that is I was sloppy in my email.

The matter of Fasts and Abstinence there are obvious differences between the Western and Eastern Rites but I would suggest that the historic Western practice is more sustainable and understanable. The cultural factors in the Eastern practice would pose real question in such countries as Indonesia. Again this is not presented as a criticism.

The Mission to create a WR Parish in the Toronto Region is a product of a couple of years of careful planning and of patient working through the proper channels. Some people are probablly pretty upset by such a development but I hope not hostile.

Bishop Alexander has been very clear that any Parish that is to be built is to be centrally located and is to be sustainable. We have no problem with that because if Toronto is really such a strong area to build a WR Parish then the higher standard should apply as we think the potential in this Region of 5.5 million people from a central 1 hour's Sunday drive should be sufficient for more than one parish ultimately.

The Barrie phone number is temporary as we have a toll free number that will become operational this weekend; 1-800-556-0498. There will be newspaper ads in Barrie and in Toronto and Hamilton commencing in two weeks. There will be regular ads and mail campaigns for at least one year as part of ths initial phases.

While I live in Barrie (and that is a logical place to do more practical and immediate work) the focus will swiftly switch to the overall area. Much of this will be announced in the next couple of weeks on our web page at; westernorthodox.ca. (The ad copy will be reprinted there also) along with some photos of the Barrie Oratory of Our Lady of Walsingham.

The expectation of lots of Anglicans directly coming over is illusory. Most Anglicans are "friendly" to Orthodoxy but the matter of "Authority:" is troubling to most. I suspect a number of "previously detached" Anglicans and some RC's will come to the doorstep though along with people (some of whom are "unchurched") who are simply seekers of the True Faith and the Salvation of their Souls.

The standard of a minimum wait for Chrismation/Confirmation of Catechumins of at least one year (as is typical in Bishop Basil's Diocese) will be normative. We will want to have good inquirers, committed Catechumins, and finally active, faithful, and sustaining Parishioners in a future WR Parish.

This is a long term project and don't expect a "flash in the pan". Our work will be measured in years not months. That being said I am not pessismistic but a realistic. We have waited two years to put this very preliminary (and still being planned out effort) and it will take some time to ramp up.

There is a lot of support from outside and we are anxious not to get into a situation that we are inviting a bunch of Anglican on the Rebound to vent their particular peeve about what has transpired over the last few years and consequently getting drawn into a lot of negativity. We want a solid base and then to grow in a healthy manner from it. Whan that happens outside support will be more effectively used.

There is a chicken and the egg sutuation we face. We need to attract some committed numbers before a Priest will be assigned and we will be relying on visitng Priests for some time until that happens. This poses logestic problems (as does the large area to be approached). None of this insurmounable but will require careful planning and prepratory work.

I am sure some of you would have more questions. I will do my best to answer them.

Reader Polycarp (Bob) Sherwood
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2005, 04:04:32 AM »

Is it possible for the Western-Orthodox to attract Traditional-Latins?

The reviews I've heard from them about Western-Orthodoxy are not so favourable, claiming that their liturgy, meaning that which comes from the Pre-Vatican II (The one coming from the Anglicans is not even an option), is closer to the 1965 Missal, that it contains most of the reforms that paved the way for the New-Order-Mass such as the modernized rubrics, shortened prayers, vernacular tongues and sermons favourable to Protestantism, etc.

Do you have any experience with these people?

Are they going to host Traditional-Latin Masses?

May God bless your mission!
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2005, 11:47:59 AM »

I assume you are speaking of those who are attending Trindentine Indult (or SPXX) Masses in Latin? For the most part they are not going to be inerested in a English version of the Latin Mass even in its ammended 1965 version. I have attended Indult Masses in the past and in many ways they have a very different feel that the WR Latin version of the Gregorian Rite.That being said I don't think there is much capital in attempting to serve up selected Liturgies to indulge and entice disaffected Roman Catholics. The purpose to to win people to the Orthodox Faith in a manner that they would be familiar and comfortable with. My experience is a lot of Roman Catholics and Anglicans are sometimes more interested in regaining  what they have lost rather than truly becoming Orthodox.

The Western Rite of Orthodoxy does have a powerful attraction that crosses cultural boundaries. A good example is the WR Spanish language parish of Our Lady of Regla in Miami that is VERY Cuban. When I attended Mass at the WR parish of Our Lady of Walsingham in Mesquite Texas there were a lot of Mexicans in attendance, etc. There is a common misimpression that the WR is an English thing and if one can take a look at the spread of the Western Rite forms of worship since the Schism it is easy to see that such Liturgical forms in its Roman and Anglican forms have taken hold in a broad range of cultures. In Canada the only Royal Chapel outside of the UK is at the 6 Nations Native Reserve in Ontario. It may sound strange but I would suspect that Orthodoxy could fairly easily take hold among the Canadian Native population as this has been a stronghold of "Traditional Anglicanism".

Ultimately the strength of the Western Rite is its ease in transending cultural boundaries especially in the years since the Schism which saw Christianity spread throughout much of the world. This is not to say that the Orthodox Missionary work in Alaska and Africa during this period among radically different cultures was impotent but the fact is that Western (Latin) Rite forms of worship are more familiar to broad sections of the population even if is mutilated and abridged in Protestant worship.

I think it is a mistake to expect that Eastern Rite or Western Rite Orthodox need to learn to "like" or "understand" each other's liturgies. Both are have been around in one variation or another and everyone needs to respect each other.

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« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2005, 01:28:20 PM »

I just wish there was a Western Orthodox church (Antiochian or ROCOR) in the Chicagoland area... Undecided
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2005, 08:26:20 PM »

Why not contact the Antiochian's and see if that can happen? That is what I did.
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