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Author Topic: That's it.....I'm going Trad!  (Read 8368 times) Average Rating: 0
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Beavis
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« on: October 31, 2005, 10:21:29 AM »

Dear Friends,

     I think I've about had enough with irreverence and innovations in the Antiochian Liturgy.  Let me describe to you an experience at Liturgy yesterday:  The Priest usually gives teh announcements after the "dismissal".  This time, the choir came downstairs to sing some cheesy song about how everyone should join the choir.  It was done in a sort of "barbershop" style harmonic.  They were swaying and smiling......bopping and doo-wopping.  This one guy was wearing sun-glasses and dancing a little "diddy".  Towards the end of this "song", this man and some woman came down to where the congregation was, and literally started grabbing people, in a jocular fashion, to "make them join the choir".  It was reminiscent of a sleazy Las Vegas lounge act.  The entire congregatoin was laughing during this episode and clapped after the "song".

And it wasn't just this episode.  It seems every Sunday, there is some such clowny act.  I personally find clapping or laughing to be very inappropriate at Liturgy.  Save it for the coffee hour.  And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.  I want to wax ROCOR, but there's some creedal obligations that I'm not sure I can wholeheartedly swallow (i.e. I'm a big fan of Florensky and Bulgakov....I'm "ecumenist", etc.).  Any advice?
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 11:52:38 AM »

If from your point of view the Antiochians are not in error theologically (which you probably would agree with given that you are an ecumenist) then you really can't justify leaving them for ROCOR.

Just put up with the liturgical silliness and try to pray.  I have been there and had to do that myself.

Perhaps you should ask yourself though if the kinds of trends that produced such liturgical misadventures also are the ones that produced Bulgakov.

Anastasios
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 12:45:40 PM »

If from your point of view the Antiochians are not in error theologically (which you probably would agree with given that you are an ecumenist) then you really can't justify leaving them for ROCOR.

well....can't I have my cake and eat it too?


Perhaps you should ask yourself though if the kinds of trends that produced such liturgical misadventures also are the ones that produced Bulgakov.

I have asked myself that, but on closer examination, I find that to be misguided.ÂÂ  I think it is an all-too-human, yet understandable, error to believe that liturgical liberalness can lead to theological liberalness or vice-versa.ÂÂ  Just go to a contemporary-style "charismatic" Church and listen to their fundamentalist theology.ÂÂ  On the other hand, I've found that it is typically "high-Church" Anglican Parishes which tend to be the most liberal.ÂÂ  It's basically a "well-if-they're-doing-so-and-so-then-what's-next?-such-and-such?!" attitude, which I can be very guilty of.ÂÂ  I personally find it necessary for any ecclesiastical change to be sufficiently grounded in universally acknowledged foundations.....yet change there shall indeed be.ÂÂ  This includes either liturgical change or theological change.ÂÂ  If it is lacking in a sufficiently grounded foundation to make that particular jumping point for a change, then it is simply an innovation, rather than a "change" or a progress.ÂÂ  Personally, I find Sophiology to be grounded on such a foundation, whereas acting like the Three stooges during liturgy is not.ÂÂ  Do you see where I am coming from?ÂÂ  ThankÂÂ  you, brother for your guidance.

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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 01:14:07 PM »

btw, I said I am an ecumenist.  Undoubtedly, this might have brought up some rather unsavory connotations.  When I say "I am an 'ecumenist'", what I mean is that I believe that grace *may* be present in unOrthodox Churches.  I also believe that any union of some given Church with the EO Church should be based on a scholarly consensus that either said Church has now attained an Orthodox position, or has always possessed an Orthodox position.  I certainly don't believe in throwing Councils or doctrines out the window for the sake of holding hands and lighters in the air and singing "Kumbaya".  HOWEVER, I also don't believe that we should simply shun union with any Church without first peering into their theology to see whether or not they actually ARE Orthodox (for example, the OO Church).  I believe in true unions rather than false ones.....and I don't believe in doctrinal "minimalism".  Now that I've defined what "ecumenism" means to me, we can have a more meaningful discussion.....I apologize for any misunderstanding that I may have caused.
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 01:15:49 PM »

Quote
And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.

Actually, I've seen some girls in ROCOR parishes that... . .  er nevermind, my wife might read this!  Grin  Seriously though, the problem doesn't necessarily stop once one finds a more traditional parish. I would agree with Anastasios, just stick it out, and maybe talk to the priest about how scandalizing you find it. Let him know that you know they mean well and mean to be energizing people, but that they are nonetheless, at least in part, doing the opposite, and really making it hard for some people to participate there.
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2005, 02:15:33 PM »

The entire congregatoin was laughing during this episode and clapped after the "song".

<GASP> The Scandal...next thing you know people are going to be clapping at the end of the Homily, and maybe even shouting things out during it, we must put an end to such things before our Churches resemble the Great Church of Christ under St. John Chrysostom!

Quote
I personally find clapping or laughing to be very inappropriate at Liturgy.

I too am quite certain that God finds laughter to be despicable and reprehensible, as He is a God of both Dispair and Depression and must rationally rejoice in the Misery of His faithful.

Quote
And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.

Well, look in the bright side, at least they're keeping their clothes on during the services, regardless of how little they wore; and no, I'm not refering to the change in the teleturgics of the adult baptismal service, there was a reason that we had to pass canonical legislation forbidding people form copulating in the Church.

For better or worse it was monastic influence, which was particular strong during the decline and after the fall of the Empire, that created a more austere enviroment in the Churches, which is actually contrary to traditional atmosphere in the Cathedral Churches. Additional examples beyond the ones I gave above can be found in some of the spoken rubrics of the services such as 'Δύναμις' which essentially is there to say, 'stop messing around and say it like you mean it,' then there is 'Σοφία, Ορθοί' which is basically saying 'get up off your collective backsides and pay attention for a couple minutes, this is actually important.' So be careful and be aware of what you're really asking for when you want a more 'traditional' enviroment.
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2005, 02:31:25 PM »

I respectfully, yet firmly, disagree.  There is a time and a place for such emotional outbursts, but Divine Liturgy is neither that time nor place.  And, on the contrary, nothing is more precious in the Holy Trinity's eyes than our sorrow.  We are told to turn our laughter into mourning so that the Lord can lift us up......especially if we are dressing like Jessica Simpson in Church.  Do you imagine that the Jews were laughing, clapping, and carrying on during the Temple prayers?  I doubt it.  The sanctuary is a place for reverence and the contemplation of our sinful state.  Let's save our laughing for "Romper Room".
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2005, 02:34:28 PM »

For better or worse it was monastic influence, which was particular strong during the decline and after the fall of the Empire, that created a more austere enviroment in the Churches, which is actually contrary to traditional atmosphere in the Cathedral Churches. 

I would just like to add that the heavy monastic influence was exerted from even the 13th century, as they helped preserve much of the faith and customs during the barbaric oppression by the "friendly" Crusaders.

And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC. 

I (and many of my friends here at Holy Cross) prefer Popeye's.  In fact - we're planning a "pilgrimage" to the only Popeye's in the state of MA in the next few weeks (before lent).
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2005, 02:45:08 PM »

There is a time and a place for such emotional outbursts, but Divine Liturgy is neither that time nor place. And, on the contrary, nothing is more precious in the Holy Trinity's eyes than our sorrow. 

Really?  Nothing more precious?  I know the stories - the tear being the most precious gifts and all; but we are also commanded to be like children - mourn for our weaknesses and our failings, but find joy in the Love of the Lord.  I'm not saying that this is necessarily manifested through clapping and theatrics, but let's not go overboard on the condemnation.

Oh, and by the way: was this happening during the Liturgy, or right after?  At first you said it was

The Priest usually gives teh announcements after the "dismissal". 

But then later you say that it was during the Liturgy.  I'm not looking to be annoying, just exact.

Do you imagine that the Jews were laughing, clapping, and carrying on during the Temple prayers? I doubt it.   

I don't know, but I do know that the Katavasies of this seaons exhort us to "come clap our hands while glorifying God who was truly born of her."

The sanctuary is a place for reverence and the contemplation of our sinful state. Let's save our laughing for "Romper Room". 

Wow - I haven't seen a "Romper Room and Friends" reference in awhile.

Again - let's be precise with our terminology; the Sanctuary is the area where the bloodless sacrifice is offered; if they're doing this in the sanctuary then their Bishop will blow a blood vessel; but if its in the Nave, then its different.  And if it is indeed in the Nave, then I think I'll take a moderate position; I don't like "theatrics" in the Church (i.e. the plea for adding to the choir), but I'm not going to take the hard-line on clapping and such.  Of course, I did just spend 5 weeks of my summer teaching the kids at summer camp the "sign language applause" as an alternative to noisy church clapping.
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2005, 02:48:58 PM »

It was in between the dismissal and the korban-blessing.  So it technically wasn't *during* the Liturgy.  But everybody had to suffer through it, and that's the point.
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2005, 02:52:15 PM »

GIC,

Some of your points are factual, but I would disagree with how you are using those facts. Yes there were disturbences in the ancient Church which we don't normally have now; to the point where some homilies even digress in (apparently) a place where someone said something and the orator was responding to the comment. However, these types of things were not good just because they happened. I can recall comments about clapping in particular in both St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian, and I don't recall either of them saying "and that's a great thing!" Wink I have read that it was common in some localities in the early Church for people to actually take some of the eucharist home with them... but would you seriously use such examples to defend that type of behavior if it were happening today? The people who attended "the Great Church of Christ under St. John Chrysostom" was also rebuked many times for their complaining that Scripture was boring, for their biblical illiteracy, etc. They weren't exactly a model for us to emulate, whatever romanticised notions about 4th and 5th century Christianity might say!

PS. The Psalms also, quite often, mention musical instruments. Maybe we should use those to, eh?  Grin Forget organs, let the loud cymbals crash!
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2005, 02:58:04 PM »

Beavis:

I am assume that you are speaking of your particular Antiochian parish not all Antiochians.My Antiochan parish is very traditional and would not allow or condone such behavior
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 03:53:21 PM »

See if there is another Church within a workable distance...I would not judge all Churches on this incident...but who said or promised that worship would be easy and be a convenience ?

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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2005, 04:39:57 PM »

There are good and bad reasons to switch parishes... 

But if you switch because one parish is "more correct" than the other there is no stopping that mentality.  Soon ROCOR will be far too liberal, especially if you are among mostly Russians and fewer converts.  Then then you'll have to leave for the next most correct jurisdiction - ROCiE, ROAC etc.  And eventually as they groups like ROAC go through their annual schism you'll be getting more correct and eventually it will be just you, your icons and readers' services. 
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2005, 04:41:41 PM »

and eventually it will be just you, your icons and readers' services.ÂÂ  

Which he will have to purge as he discovers they are western influenced Wink
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2005, 04:53:12 PM »

Which he will have to purge as he discovers they are western influenced Wink

Is truly outrage!
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2005, 04:56:01 PM »

What was amazing to me on the Holy Mountain is just how many "incorrect" icons there were - St. Andrew's Skete and St. Panteleimon's were entirely westeren style icons including the "old man Father" Trinity icons.  I also saw an icon of Christ depicted as a lamb at another monastery...

Didn't stop the saints that lived in those monasteries from becoming saints - so maybe people that get worked up over such matters should consider that. ÂÂ
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2005, 05:04:35 PM »

One of my favorite icons is a "rip off" of the RC painting of the crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven.

Anastasios
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2005, 07:26:49 PM »

PS. The Psalms also, quite often, mention musical instruments. Maybe we should use those to, eh? Grin Forget organs, let the loud cymbals crash!   

Ahh, yes, but we're not talking about Orthodox practice; the comment about clapping hands with the Psalmic reference was in rebuttal to:

Do you imagine that the Jews were laughing, clapping, and carrying on during the Temple prayers? I doubt it.

There were precincts of the temple where the instruments were used; just not in the inner chambers (the Holy, the Holy of Holies; etc).  Do I advocate any of that in Church - of course not; I'm an advocate of the 100% natural God-given instrument: the human voice.
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2005, 11:46:24 PM »

Cleveland,

While I would agree that that was what he was responding to, I still think that GIC went too far in making such things appear acceptable by sarcastically comparing it to the Church of St. John. By bringing up St. John, GIC seemed (to me at least) to be arguing that clapping and such couldn't be too bad, or it might even be perfectly fine. I mean, if he had brought St. John up and said "So this is not a new problem," that is one thing; however, I got the impression that GIC was implying that it was a problem that didn't require dealing with, which I would disagree with. Though, admittedly, this might just be another example of GIC provoking in an attempt to generate discussion. Perhaps I'm just a bad discerner. Blah!ÂÂ  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2005, 12:15:46 AM »

Cleveland,

While I would agree that that was what he was responding to, I still think that GIC went too far in making such things appear acceptable by sarcastically comparing it to the Church of St. John. By bringing up St. John, GIC seemed (to me at least) to be arguing that clapping and such couldn't be too bad, or it might even be perfectly fine. I mean, if he had brought St. John up and said "So this is not a new problem," that is one thing; however, I got the impression that GIC was implying that it was a problem that didn't require dealing with, which I would disagree with. Though, admittedly, this might just be another example of GIC provoking in an attempt to generate discussion. Perhaps I'm just a bad discerner. Blah!  Grin


I would further add and even go as far to say that GIC's preponderous use of "the Great Church of Christ" in representing the Church of Constantinople is in fact dangerous to his spiritual health.  He says this as if anyone or any other local Orthodox Church is less, as if only "His" Church does things the right way, would never do things the wrong way and even can not do anything wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2005, 02:01:42 AM »

Cleveland,

While I would agree that that was what he was responding to, I still think that GIC went too far in making such things appear acceptable by sarcastically comparing it to the Church of St. John. By bringing up St. John, GIC seemed (to me at least) to be arguing that clapping and such couldn't be too bad, or it might even be perfectly fine. I mean, if he had brought St. John up and said "So this is not a new problem," that is one thing; however, I got the impression that GIC was implying that it was a problem that didn't require dealing with, which I would disagree with. Though, admittedly, this might just be another example of GIC provoking in an attempt to generate discussion. Perhaps I'm just a bad discerner. Blah!ÂÂ  Grin

Your latter statement was probably the most acute, but I did want to make the point that the 'traditional' liturgical enviroment was far more casual than today's; the distinction in enviroments, traditionally, was not between conservative and liberal but rather between Parish and Monastery, thus it should be acknowledged that these 'innovations' that people complain about are as old as the Church, the Parish has always had a more casual atmosphere, which can be seen most radically in the early Church, but is apparent until the first fall of the City. And as cleveland correctly pointed out, the emphasis on monastic tradition was done out of necessity, but much of our Orthodox Culture, Tradition, and Faith was lost with the sacking and eventually final fall of the City, probably never to be recovered. But with the historical context established, as far as personal opinion, as has been seen in many of my other posts I am quite distraught to see any deviation from the Typika of the Greek Patriarchates; but seeing how this was a post-liturgical event, I wouldn't list it as a problem on the same level as some of the other liturgical abnormalities of the Antiochians that we have discussed in the past.

I would further add and even go as far to say that GIC's preponderous use of "the Great Church of Christ" in representing the Church of Constantinople is in fact dangerous to his spiritual health. He says this as if anyone or any other local Orthodox Church is less, as if only "His" Church does things the right way, would never do things the wrong way and even can not do anything wrong.

And I find your disrespect towards the Great Church of Christ, especially considering the fact that you technically live under the Omophorion of the Oecumenical Patriarch, to be dangerous to your spiritual health...but of course both your statement and mine are politically motivated. Furthermore, the Respect I give to the Great Church is not on account of it being 'My' Church, but rather on account of the posistion that the Patriarchate holds, the Posistion of the First See of Christendom and as the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2005, 02:20:33 AM »

Actually Elish doesn't live under the Patriarch's omniphoron.  His is a member of the OCA with is under the omniphoron of Metr. Herman.  Or if you wish to consider the OCA part of the Patriarchate of Moscow then Elisha is ultimately under the omniphoron of Patriarch Alexii of Moscow.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is not and has never been an episcopus episcorum for the entire Church.   
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2005, 03:48:27 AM »

Actually Elish doesn't live under the Patriarch's omniphoron.  His is a member of the OCA with is under the omniphoron of Metr. Herman.  Or if you wish to consider the OCA part of the Patriarchate of Moscow then Elisha is ultimately under the omniphoron of Patriarch Alexii of Moscow.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is not and has never been an episcopus episcorum for the entire Church.   

Yes.  Thank you, Idiot.  Smiley

Your latter statement was probably the most acute, but I did want to make the point that the 'traditional' liturgical enviroment was far more casual than today's; the distinction in enviroments, traditionally, was not between conservative and liberal but rather between Parish and Monastery, thus it should be acknowledged that these 'innovations' that people complain about are as old as the Church, the Parish has always had a more casual atmosphere, which can be seen most radically in the early Church, but is apparent until the first fall of the City. And as cleveland correctly pointed out, the emphasis on monastic tradition was done out of necessity, but much of our Orthodox Culture, Tradition, and Faith was lost with the sacking and eventually final fall of the City, probably never to be recovered. But with the historical context established, as far as personal opinion, as has been seen in many of my other posts I am quite distraught to see any deviation from the Typika of the Greek Patriarchates; but seeing how this was a post-liturgical event, I wouldn't list it as a problem on the same level as some of the other liturgical abnormalities of the Antiochians that we have discussed in the past.

1) Never to be recovered....hmmmmm....and yet you blast "Western Rite" Orthodox as if it is some completel innvotion or the false resurrecting of a dead tradition.  I think the more appropriate new nickname, Orthodox Pharisee may be more appropriate.

2) distraught at the Typika deviation....now this is just flat out unOrthodox.  The Orthodox Church believes in the Baptizing of a People, and a TRUE, ORGANIC development of culture.  You just said above that this is distraughtful.  You betray Christ in His creation.  Christ and the Church is not about the Helleinic world.  It amazes me that you don't even TRY in the LEAST to appreciate Christ in His creation  in any other form then anything that is not Hellenic.

There is some silly phrase out there..."Everyone is either Greek or wishes that they were Greek."  Well, we know you fall under the latter...which is truly sad that you are actually falling for this ethnocentric phrase.

There is GREEK man in my parish that could smack you silly with sense (as he could smack many of us).  You should visit us and let him.

And I find your disrespect towards the Great Church of Christ, especially considering the fact that you technically live under the Omophorion of the Oecumenical Patriarch, to be dangerous to your spiritual health...but of course both your statement and mine are politically motivated. Furthermore, the Respect I give to the Great Church is not on account of it being 'My' Church, but rather on account of the posistion that the Patriarchate holds, the Posistion of the First See of Christendom and as the Oecumenical Patriarchate.

But you're assuming I'm disrespecting the Oecumenical Patriarchate.  I'm not.  I lament the state that the See of Constantinople is in, but accept the reality as well.  It is you, by your haughty attitude that fails to give ANY respect to any other Orthodox See.
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2005, 06:59:11 AM »

1) Never to be recovered....hmmmmm....and yet you blast "Western Rite" Orthodox as if it is some completel innvotion or the false resurrecting of a dead tradition. I think the more appropriate new nickname, Orthodox Pharisee may be more appropriate. 

Not that I need to be some sort of GiC defender, but I know that one of his major objections to the "Western Rite" is that it is not in the Liturgical Tradition of the Church of Antioch, which is an objection bourne out of the environment of the past 900 years where, within each Patriarchate, we see the establishment of a uniform Liturgical practice (thanks in large part to the invasions of the Moslems, which forced the churches to do as much as they could to be strong...).  The principle thus becomes centered around each "local church" (here referring to each Patriarchate) having the same liturgical tradition as a sign of unity between the hierarchs - the use of the "western rite" in America would, at different points in our Church's history, have been a sign of disunity.

Of course, this whole idea disregards the fact that for awhile you had many different liturgical traditions coexisting even within each Patriarchate during the period before this current one.  Not that I want to go back to the state where it was before, where each bishop would chose on their own which liturgy to use, but it would be nice to see the different proper liturgies get used again within each church.

2) distraught at the Typika deviation....now this is just flat out unOrthodox. The Orthodox Church believes in the Baptizing of a People, and a TRUE, ORGANIC development of culture. You just said above that this is distraughtful. You betray Christ in His creation. Christ and the Church is not about the Helleinic world. It amazes me that you don't even TRY in the LEAST to appreciate Christ in His creation in any other form then anything that is not Hellenic. 

How do you and GiC define "Hellenic?"  I hope one is not referring to "Hellenic" as Greek and the other as "Roman/Rum" - then we would be comparing apples and oranges.  Gic doesn't extol "Greek" in the ethnic sense; trust me, he sees all the failings of "Greek" here at HC.  He does advocate the use of the Greek Language in Liturgy, but its Liturgical Greek - which has nothing to do with the ethnicity; he also likes Latin, which should demonstrate that he just wants the original languages used in the liturgies (we always have the debates here at school about which translations to use: some are wonderful, some take liberties; it is often enough to drive someone to the perspective of not using them much at all). 

But you're assuming I'm disrespecting the Oecumenical Patriarchate. I'm not. I lament the state that the See of Constantinople is in, but accept the reality as well. It is you, by your haughty attitude that fails to give ANY respect to any other Orthodox See. 

He does like throwing around the "Great Church of Christ" a lot, doesn't he?  Well, in our tradition it is the only way in which Agia Sophia is referred to - the Cathedral Church of Constantinople, in all our official ecclesiastical documents, is referred to as the "Great Church of Christ" - both in reference to Agia Sophia itself, and to the Holy Orthodox Church which was manifest through the life and activity in said church.

Of course, GiC could be a bit more judicious when he uses the name of the Great Church - I don't think anyone needs to get beat over the head with the name.
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2005, 10:45:12 AM »

There are good and bad reasons to switch parishes... 

But if you switch because one parish is "more correct" than the other there is no stopping that mentality.  Soon ROCOR will be far too liberal, especially if you are among mostly Russians and fewer converts.  Then then you'll have to leave for the next most correct jurisdiction - ROCiE, ROAC etc.  And eventually as they groups like ROAC go through their annual schism you'll be getting more correct and eventually it will be just you, your icons and readers' services. 

Um, I gotta take a little offense at that.  ROCOR has actually gotten more conservative than how I remember it when I was little, the Russians from Russia that actually go to church (not the ones that show up a couple times a year) tend to be more conservative than the cradle ROCOR, and the American converts... well, yeah, they tend to be stricter than most cradles, but I've seen some Russians that are way more.  And ROCie, ROAC... well, I have my opinions on that but I don't have enough energy to open a can of worms.  ROCOR now is definitely not the ROCOR of my childhood, but I'm not going to go on that tirade either at the moment.
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2005, 11:41:07 AM »

Which he will have to purge as he discovers they are western influenced Wink

I just wanted to make it clear that I was speaking generally and not actually about Beavis. I wouldn't want Beavis to think I am stereotyping him, which might have been unclear when I wrote this.  I was thinking in general about people who go down this route.

Anastasios
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2005, 11:56:15 AM »

eh???  No worries, I didn't think you were talking about me. 

Perhaps instead of following the "discontent" crowd into schism, maybe I (and everyone else) should simply speak our concern to the Bishops and change from the inside.  I think it's time to speak out against spineless clergy who let the Curly, Moe, and Larry have their way.
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2005, 12:37:41 PM »

eh???ÂÂ  No worries, I didn't think you were talking about me.ÂÂ  

Perhaps instead of following the "discontent" crowd into schism, maybe I (and everyone else) should simply speak our concern to the Bishops and change from the inside.ÂÂ  I think it's time to speak out against spineless clergy who let the Curly, Moe, and Larry have their way.

Nekatarios (Silouan) and I differ on "resistance from within for theological reasons" in that he chooses to work from within a la Athonites while I am a member of the Greek Old Calendarist Church.  Despite my support for my Church, I would say to join a body for liturgical reasons would be to have a schismatic mindset and I believe you are correct to fight from within if your concern is liturgical matters as you previously stated.

Voicing your concerns will oftentimes get you "unliked" but as long as you do it politely and within reason I think that you are doing a service to the Church.

Best wishes on getting things straightened out.

Anastasios
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2005, 12:51:45 PM »

showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.

sorry....I apologize for the fowl language.
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« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2005, 12:59:24 PM »

Ania - I wasn't at all insulting ROCOR or the new Russian immigrants by what I said.  It was an insult towards the super correct mentality.  So please don't be offended.  FWIW I wouldn't be insulting the people or jurisidiction of the parish I most often go to now (ROCOR - I'm on leave from the GOA here since they start liturgy later and take forever, which isn't cool when I have to get to work right after church).

What I was getting at is the super correctness minded people will find fault with almost any normal cradle - I could even see then finding Athonite monks to "have it all wrong." ÂÂ

Anastasios - ÂÂ I think the "mainstream" Orthodox Churches (i.e the EP, ROCOR etc.) are the Orthodox Church. ÂÂ I am not "working from inside" at anything, I'm confident Christ heals his own body when it is sick without me "working from inside." ÂÂ  
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« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2005, 01:09:31 PM »


Anastasios - ÂÂ I think the "mainstream" Orthodox Churches (i.e the EP, ROCOR etc.) are the Orthodox Church. ÂÂ I am not "working from inside" at anything, I'm confident Christ heals his own body when it is sick without me "working from inside." ÂÂ  

Right, as I think about my own Church, but I am speaking objectively and hence tried to put things into such a perspective.  From my perspective, you are working from within; from your perspective I am working from without (and from either of our perspectives the others' perspective might be misguided or worse although I personally think eventually they will coalesce).  But from our own perspectives, we are doing what any Christian would do: living an Orthodox life as best as we can.

As far as the assertion that Christ can heal his own body, I agree that Christ heals his own body, but through humans.  Hence, we must work for change when confronted with modernism and ecumenism.

Anastasios
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« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2005, 01:45:26 PM »

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From my perspective, you are working from within

But I don't even claim to be working on anything - so how can I be working from within?
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« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2005, 02:02:22 PM »

Actually Elish doesn't live under the Patriarch's omniphoron.  His is a member of the OCA with is under the omniphoron of Metr. Herman.  Or if you wish to consider the OCA part of the Patriarchate of Moscow then Elisha is ultimately under the omniphoron of Patriarch Alexii of Moscow.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is not and has never been an episcopus episcorum for the entire Church.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

The best I can figure Elisha lives in California, which is a state in the United States, which is outside the traditional bounds of the Russian Church, thus, as the Oecumenical Throne maintains, under the 28th Canon of Chalcedon these lands are technically under the Great Church of Christ. While the Patriarchate may allow foreign entities to administer Churches for pastoral reasons within His lands, this does not change the Authority that the Oecumenical Patriarchate exersizes over His lands, thus, like it or not, everyone in the Diaspora is properly under the Oecumenical Patriarch, even those who attend the Churches of the Russian Metropolia.

Yes. Thank you, Idiot. Smiley

WOW, I just dont know how to reply to such an elegant apology, but I'll give it a try...see above.

Quote
1) Never to be recovered....hmmmmm....and yet you blast "Western Rite" Orthodox as if it is some completel innvotion or the false resurrecting of a dead tradition. I think the more appropriate new nickname, Orthodox Pharisee may be more appropriate.

While I think much was lost with the replacing of the Cathedral Rite by the Monastic Rite, one of the reasons I say 'never to be recovered' is because after 500 years it would be highly inappropriate to try and resurrect a dead liturgy, for better or worse we have the Liturgy we have today, and it is the one that we should use...the one that all of our Churches should use regardless of 'rite.'

Quote
2) distraught at the Typika deviation....now this is just flat out unOrthodox. The Orthodox Church believes in the Baptizing of a People, and a TRUE, ORGANIC development of culture. You just said above that this is distraughtful. You betray Christ in His creation. Christ and the Church is not about the Helleinic world. It amazes me that you don't even TRY in the LEAST to appreciate Christ in His creation in any other form then anything that is not Hellenic.

Liturgical evolution is one thing, such as the development in the differences between the Greek and Slavic liturgies that came about over the last 1000 years, but a significant and fundamental alteration to the Liturgy (e.g. western rite, cathedral rite, etc.) is not acceptable, for that is not an organic development of culture, but rather a revolutionary movement to alter the fundementals of Christian Praxis to be consonant with our own nationalistc biases.

Quote
There is some silly phrase out there..."Everyone is either Greek or wishes that they were Greek." Well, we know you fall under the latter...which is truly sad that you are actually falling for this ethnocentric phrase.

In the proper sense of refering to the Culture of the Empire, you are correct, if you think that I want to be Greek in terms of the Modern EU Member Nation-State of Greece, though I have respect for their Culture and People, no I dont want to be Greek.

Quote
There is GREEK man in my parish that could smack you silly with sense (as he could smack many of us). You should visit us and let him.

Is he Greek insofar as he maintains the Customs, Culture, and Traditions of the Empire or does he just have extra vowels in his last name?

Quote
But you're assuming I'm disrespecting the Oecumenical Patriarchate. I'm not. I lament the state that the See of Constantinople is in, but accept the reality as well. It is you, by your haughty attitude that fails to give ANY respect to any other Orthodox See.

I have respect for all the Orthodox Sees, but the See worthy of the Greatest Respect and Honour is Constantinople, and after her Alexandria, then Antioch, and Jerusalem...you get the picture.

How do you and GiC define "Hellenic?" I hope one is not referring to "Hellenic" as Greek and the other as "Roman/Rum" - then we would be comparing apples and oranges. Gic doesn't extol "Greek" in the ethnic sense; trust me, he sees all the failings of "Greek" here at HC. He does advocate the use of the Greek Language in Liturgy, but its Liturgical Greek - which has nothing to do with the ethnicity; he also likes Latin, which should demonstrate that he just wants the original languages used in the liturgies (we always have the debates here at school about which translations to use: some are wonderful, some take liberties; it is often enough to drive someone to the perspective of not using them much at all).

Thank you, I believe we have already had the discussion of 'what does GiC mean when he extols the greatness of Greek Culture and it's centrality to the Church.' Thus, I had assumed that I did not need to clarify again, but I guess I was wrong.

Quote
Of course, GiC could be a bit more judicious when he uses the name of the Great Church - I don't think anyone needs to get beat over the head with the name.

I could, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun Wink
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« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2005, 02:43:10 PM »

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Quote from: Elisha on Yesterday at 11:48:27 PM
Yes. Thank you, Idiot.

WOW, I just dont know how to reply to such an elegant apology, but I'll give it a try...see above.

See below my user name and consider that post was in response to me. 


As for the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, I think President Andrew Jackson's reply to Chief Justice Marshall is apt, "John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."  Or better yet when in the history of the Church has Istanbul actually had jurisdiction over all non-imperial lands?  And since the empire is defunct now (in case you hadn't noticed its been gone a lot time now) the definition of who exactly are the Barbari remains.  In imperial days a barbarus was one who didn't speak Latin or Greek.  If you transfer the meaning of that concept and get past your literal fundamentalism you'd be able to accept that English, French and German are the Greek and Latin of the world today - so who really are the babarians now?

What happens when the formerly great Church of Istanbul is finally eradicated off the face of the earth?  Istanbul has long ceased to be the center of the Orthodox world...

As for you assertation that non Greek jurisdictions are in America by the grace of the Istanbul Patriarchate - that would be like Saddam Hussein saying the American/British occupation is allowed to administer the situation in Iraq. 

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« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2005, 02:51:44 PM »

Silouan, you may remember that Jerusalem was awarded a Patriarchal See not because of its demographic or political status, but because of the spiritual honor of the Great City.  Constantinople, after 1500 years of greatness, deserves such an honor in my opinion.  Because of this honor, the fact that it is no longer a politically significant city should not invalidate its claim to universality.
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« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2005, 03:15:02 PM »

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem has a real flock and is hardly seeking to grasp jurisdiction over the entire world.  Istanbul is a fading memory with an ever shrinking flock.  Eventually all that will be left is a Turkish run meuseum about the Phanar (after all a meuseum turns more a profit than just an empty building). 
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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2005, 03:21:44 PM »

So would you suggest moving the EP to New York or Tokyo?  In light of the fact that there is no longer an Orthodox empire, it wouldn't make sense to move it to the newest politically significant city; yet there has to be some centralization somewhere, otherwise the flock will run astray.  It took a while for Moscow to be trustworthy.....and New Amsterdam,...er I mean York, is a far cry from that.  Solution?  Keep the EP in Constantinople out of time-honored tradition.
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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2005, 03:26:18 PM »

Six feet below the earth would suffice. 
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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2005, 03:47:23 PM »

But I don't even claim to be working on anything - so how can I be working from within?

It is not solely dependent on your pereception, though.  You are opposed to ecumenism and modernism, right? And make that known? So you are working on something.

Anastasios
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« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2005, 03:48:14 PM »

So would you suggest moving the EP to New York or Tokyo?ÂÂ  In light of the fact that there is no longer an Orthodox empire, it wouldn't make sense to move it to the newest politically significant city; yet there has to be some centralization somewhere, otherwise the flock will run astray.ÂÂ  It took a while for Moscow to be trustworthy.....and New Amsterdam,...er I mean York, is a far cry from that.ÂÂ  Solution?ÂÂ  Keep the EP in Constantinople out of time-honored tradition.

My suggestion would be reunite the Church of Greece and Constantinople and make the Archbishop of Athens patriarch.  Just how the Patriarch of "Antioch" lives in Damascus.

Anastasios
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« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2005, 03:56:11 PM »

The best I can figure Elisha lives in California, which is a state in the United States, which is outside the traditional bounds of the Russian Church, thus, as the Oecumenical Throne maintains, under the 28th Canon of Chalcedon these lands are technically under the Great Church of Christ. While the Patriarchate may allow foreign entities to administer Churches for pastoral reasons within His lands, this does not change the Authority that the Oecumenical Patriarchate exersizes over His lands, thus, like it or not, everyone in the Diaspora is properly under the Oecumenical Patriarch, even those who attend the Churches of the Russian Metropolia.

Regarding this here is a summary of the Russian understanding of Chalcedon 28:
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/currentissues/diaspora.cfm

And here is the text of the canon in question:

Quote
Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome.  For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.  And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (ἴσα πρεσβεῖα) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.

It seems to me that the canon only gives Constantinople authority over Barbarians in the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses. Not anywhere where "Barbarians" are found.

Anastasios
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« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2005, 04:17:29 PM »

Re: Athens and the EP.  Under the current situation it is not the same as Antioch's move to Damascus.  Damascus is within the canonical territory of Antioch, whereas Athens is not within Istanbul's territory. ÂÂ

As to ''working within" : I'm simply trying to live my life within the patristic tradition as I have been taught it. ÂÂ My "cause" only has superficial similarites to that of your synod. ÂÂ While we both may see ecumenism as an error in judgement and see various abuses of economy in the Church today - I do not seek to usurp the Church. ÂÂ Your synod officially declares the Church to be graceless and your leader calls himself the Archbishop of Athens. ÂÂ  That is not my agenda nor my cause. ÂÂ
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« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2005, 05:11:07 PM »

Not that I want to waste much of my time on another GiC folly, it should be pointed out that Constantinople had some 600 years to object to the Roman colonization of barbaric Western Europe.

I'll go along with this comment:

As for the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, I think President Andrew Jackson's reply to Chief Justice Marshall is apt, "John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."

The truth of the matter is that the American situation will eventually be resolved by SCOBA or some essentially similar body. On that day the EP or his successor will recognize this and cease his obstruction of union, but other than that he has nothing to contribute that I can see.
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« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2005, 05:39:17 PM »

Re: Athens and the EP.  Under the current situation it is not the same as Antioch's move to Damascus.  Damascus is within the canonical territory of Antioch, whereas Athens is not within Istanbul's territory. ÂÂ

Which is why I said reunite the two churches first.

Quote
As to ''working within" : I'm simply trying to live my life within the patristic tradition as I have been taught it. ÂÂ My "cause" only has superficial similarites to that of your synod. ÂÂ While we both may see ecumenism as an error in judgement and see various abuses of economy in the Church today - I do not seek to usurp the Church. ÂÂ Your synod officially declares the Church to be graceless and your leader calls himself the Archbishop of Athens. ÂÂ  That is not my agenda nor my cause. ÂÂ

First of all, I wouldn't label it a cause at all; at heart we want the same simple thing: to preserve Orthodoxy by living "within the patristic tradition as [we have] been taught it."  As I said, we differ on the way to achieve this.  I don't see the similarities as superficial at all; I see the Old Calendarists and the traditionalist anti-ecumenist New Calendarists as one in spirit albeit currently not united in approach, much as the Nicenes and Neo-Nicenes were originally against each other but then united in the 4th century.  Perhaps you will disagree.

The issue of church polity ("usurpation" as you call it) is of secondary importance; because we disagree on the effects of ecumenism we dealt with the issue differently, but this is an effect and not part of the original root of the problem.  Things developed the way they did but nothing is yet set in stone.  We are not usurping the Church, we are just doing what the Church does: ordaining bishops and priests in order to carry on the Orthodox faith, and not giving in to the heresy of ecumenism. Of course you will disagree, but I acknowledged in my initial post a difference in views on remedying the problem of ecumenism.

Anastasios

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