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Author Topic: That's it.....I'm going Trad!  (Read 8762 times) Average Rating: 0
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Beavis
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« on: October 31, 2005, 10:21:29 AM »

Dear Friends,

     I think I've about had enough with irreverence and innovations in the Antiochian Liturgy.  Let me describe to you an experience at Liturgy yesterday:  The Priest usually gives teh announcements after the "dismissal".  This time, the choir came downstairs to sing some cheesy song about how everyone should join the choir.  It was done in a sort of "barbershop" style harmonic.  They were swaying and smiling......bopping and doo-wopping.  This one guy was wearing sun-glasses and dancing a little "diddy".  Towards the end of this "song", this man and some woman came down to where the congregation was, and literally started grabbing people, in a jocular fashion, to "make them join the choir".  It was reminiscent of a sleazy Las Vegas lounge act.  The entire congregatoin was laughing during this episode and clapped after the "song".

And it wasn't just this episode.  It seems every Sunday, there is some such clowny act.  I personally find clapping or laughing to be very inappropriate at Liturgy.  Save it for the coffee hour.  And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.  I want to wax ROCOR, but there's some creedal obligations that I'm not sure I can wholeheartedly swallow (i.e. I'm a big fan of Florensky and Bulgakov....I'm "ecumenist", etc.).  Any advice?
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 11:52:38 AM »

If from your point of view the Antiochians are not in error theologically (which you probably would agree with given that you are an ecumenist) then you really can't justify leaving them for ROCOR.

Just put up with the liturgical silliness and try to pray.  I have been there and had to do that myself.

Perhaps you should ask yourself though if the kinds of trends that produced such liturgical misadventures also are the ones that produced Bulgakov.

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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 12:45:40 PM »

If from your point of view the Antiochians are not in error theologically (which you probably would agree with given that you are an ecumenist) then you really can't justify leaving them for ROCOR.

well....can't I have my cake and eat it too?


Perhaps you should ask yourself though if the kinds of trends that produced such liturgical misadventures also are the ones that produced Bulgakov.

I have asked myself that, but on closer examination, I find that to be misguided.ÂÂ  I think it is an all-too-human, yet understandable, error to believe that liturgical liberalness can lead to theological liberalness or vice-versa.ÂÂ  Just go to a contemporary-style "charismatic" Church and listen to their fundamentalist theology.ÂÂ  On the other hand, I've found that it is typically "high-Church" Anglican Parishes which tend to be the most liberal.ÂÂ  It's basically a "well-if-they're-doing-so-and-so-then-what's-next?-such-and-such?!" attitude, which I can be very guilty of.ÂÂ  I personally find it necessary for any ecclesiastical change to be sufficiently grounded in universally acknowledged foundations.....yet change there shall indeed be.ÂÂ  This includes either liturgical change or theological change.ÂÂ  If it is lacking in a sufficiently grounded foundation to make that particular jumping point for a change, then it is simply an innovation, rather than a "change" or a progress.ÂÂ  Personally, I find Sophiology to be grounded on such a foundation, whereas acting like the Three stooges during liturgy is not.ÂÂ  Do you see where I am coming from?ÂÂ  ThankÂÂ  you, brother for your guidance.

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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 01:14:07 PM »

btw, I said I am an ecumenist.  Undoubtedly, this might have brought up some rather unsavory connotations.  When I say "I am an 'ecumenist'", what I mean is that I believe that grace *may* be present in unOrthodox Churches.  I also believe that any union of some given Church with the EO Church should be based on a scholarly consensus that either said Church has now attained an Orthodox position, or has always possessed an Orthodox position.  I certainly don't believe in throwing Councils or doctrines out the window for the sake of holding hands and lighters in the air and singing "Kumbaya".  HOWEVER, I also don't believe that we should simply shun union with any Church without first peering into their theology to see whether or not they actually ARE Orthodox (for example, the OO Church).  I believe in true unions rather than false ones.....and I don't believe in doctrinal "minimalism".  Now that I've defined what "ecumenism" means to me, we can have a more meaningful discussion.....I apologize for any misunderstanding that I may have caused.
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 01:15:49 PM »

Quote
And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.

Actually, I've seen some girls in ROCOR parishes that... . .  er nevermind, my wife might read this!  Grin  Seriously though, the problem doesn't necessarily stop once one finds a more traditional parish. I would agree with Anastasios, just stick it out, and maybe talk to the priest about how scandalizing you find it. Let him know that you know they mean well and mean to be energizing people, but that they are nonetheless, at least in part, doing the opposite, and really making it hard for some people to participate there.
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2005, 02:15:33 PM »

The entire congregatoin was laughing during this episode and clapped after the "song".

<GASP> The Scandal...next thing you know people are going to be clapping at the end of the Homily, and maybe even shouting things out during it, we must put an end to such things before our Churches resemble the Great Church of Christ under St. John Chrysostom!

Quote
I personally find clapping or laughing to be very inappropriate at Liturgy.

I too am quite certain that God finds laughter to be despicable and reprehensible, as He is a God of both Dispair and Depression and must rationally rejoice in the Misery of His faithful.

Quote
And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.

Well, look in the bright side, at least they're keeping their clothes on during the services, regardless of how little they wore; and no, I'm not refering to the change in the teleturgics of the adult baptismal service, there was a reason that we had to pass canonical legislation forbidding people form copulating in the Church.

For better or worse it was monastic influence, which was particular strong during the decline and after the fall of the Empire, that created a more austere enviroment in the Churches, which is actually contrary to traditional atmosphere in the Cathedral Churches. Additional examples beyond the ones I gave above can be found in some of the spoken rubrics of the services such as 'Δύναμις' which essentially is there to say, 'stop messing around and say it like you mean it,' then there is 'Σοφία, Ορθοί' which is basically saying 'get up off your collective backsides and pay attention for a couple minutes, this is actually important.' So be careful and be aware of what you're really asking for when you want a more 'traditional' enviroment.
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2005, 02:31:25 PM »

I respectfully, yet firmly, disagree.  There is a time and a place for such emotional outbursts, but Divine Liturgy is neither that time nor place.  And, on the contrary, nothing is more precious in the Holy Trinity's eyes than our sorrow.  We are told to turn our laughter into mourning so that the Lord can lift us up......especially if we are dressing like Jessica Simpson in Church.  Do you imagine that the Jews were laughing, clapping, and carrying on during the Temple prayers?  I doubt it.  The sanctuary is a place for reverence and the contemplation of our sinful state.  Let's save our laughing for "Romper Room".
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2005, 02:34:28 PM »

For better or worse it was monastic influence, which was particular strong during the decline and after the fall of the Empire, that created a more austere enviroment in the Churches, which is actually contrary to traditional atmosphere in the Cathedral Churches. 

I would just like to add that the heavy monastic influence was exerted from even the 13th century, as they helped preserve much of the faith and customs during the barbaric oppression by the "friendly" Crusaders.

And then there's all these girls who come to Liturgy showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC. 

I (and many of my friends here at Holy Cross) prefer Popeye's.  In fact - we're planning a "pilgrimage" to the only Popeye's in the state of MA in the next few weeks (before lent).
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2005, 02:45:08 PM »

There is a time and a place for such emotional outbursts, but Divine Liturgy is neither that time nor place. And, on the contrary, nothing is more precious in the Holy Trinity's eyes than our sorrow. 

Really?  Nothing more precious?  I know the stories - the tear being the most precious gifts and all; but we are also commanded to be like children - mourn for our weaknesses and our failings, but find joy in the Love of the Lord.  I'm not saying that this is necessarily manifested through clapping and theatrics, but let's not go overboard on the condemnation.

Oh, and by the way: was this happening during the Liturgy, or right after?  At first you said it was

The Priest usually gives teh announcements after the "dismissal". 

But then later you say that it was during the Liturgy.  I'm not looking to be annoying, just exact.

Do you imagine that the Jews were laughing, clapping, and carrying on during the Temple prayers? I doubt it.   

I don't know, but I do know that the Katavasies of this seaons exhort us to "come clap our hands while glorifying God who was truly born of her."

The sanctuary is a place for reverence and the contemplation of our sinful state. Let's save our laughing for "Romper Room". 

Wow - I haven't seen a "Romper Room and Friends" reference in awhile.

Again - let's be precise with our terminology; the Sanctuary is the area where the bloodless sacrifice is offered; if they're doing this in the sanctuary then their Bishop will blow a blood vessel; but if its in the Nave, then its different.  And if it is indeed in the Nave, then I think I'll take a moderate position; I don't like "theatrics" in the Church (i.e. the plea for adding to the choir), but I'm not going to take the hard-line on clapping and such.  Of course, I did just spend 5 weeks of my summer teaching the kids at summer camp the "sign language applause" as an alternative to noisy church clapping.
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2005, 02:48:58 PM »

It was in between the dismissal and the korban-blessing.  So it technically wasn't *during* the Liturgy.  But everybody had to suffer through it, and that's the point.
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2005, 02:52:15 PM »

GIC,

Some of your points are factual, but I would disagree with how you are using those facts. Yes there were disturbences in the ancient Church which we don't normally have now; to the point where some homilies even digress in (apparently) a place where someone said something and the orator was responding to the comment. However, these types of things were not good just because they happened. I can recall comments about clapping in particular in both St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian, and I don't recall either of them saying "and that's a great thing!" Wink I have read that it was common in some localities in the early Church for people to actually take some of the eucharist home with them... but would you seriously use such examples to defend that type of behavior if it were happening today? The people who attended "the Great Church of Christ under St. John Chrysostom" was also rebuked many times for their complaining that Scripture was boring, for their biblical illiteracy, etc. They weren't exactly a model for us to emulate, whatever romanticised notions about 4th and 5th century Christianity might say!

PS. The Psalms also, quite often, mention musical instruments. Maybe we should use those to, eh?  Grin Forget organs, let the loud cymbals crash!
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2005, 02:58:04 PM »

Beavis:

I am assume that you are speaking of your particular Antiochian parish not all Antiochians.My Antiochan parish is very traditional and would not allow or condone such behavior
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 03:53:21 PM »

See if there is another Church within a workable distance...I would not judge all Churches on this incident...but who said or promised that worship would be easy and be a convenience ?

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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2005, 04:39:57 PM »

There are good and bad reasons to switch parishes... 

But if you switch because one parish is "more correct" than the other there is no stopping that mentality.  Soon ROCOR will be far too liberal, especially if you are among mostly Russians and fewer converts.  Then then you'll have to leave for the next most correct jurisdiction - ROCiE, ROAC etc.  And eventually as they groups like ROAC go through their annual schism you'll be getting more correct and eventually it will be just you, your icons and readers' services. 
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2005, 04:41:41 PM »

and eventually it will be just you, your icons and readers' services.ÂÂ  

Which he will have to purge as he discovers they are western influenced Wink
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2005, 04:53:12 PM »

Which he will have to purge as he discovers they are western influenced Wink

Is truly outrage!
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2005, 04:56:01 PM »

What was amazing to me on the Holy Mountain is just how many "incorrect" icons there were - St. Andrew's Skete and St. Panteleimon's were entirely westeren style icons including the "old man Father" Trinity icons.  I also saw an icon of Christ depicted as a lamb at another monastery...

Didn't stop the saints that lived in those monasteries from becoming saints - so maybe people that get worked up over such matters should consider that. ÂÂ
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2005, 05:04:35 PM »

One of my favorite icons is a "rip off" of the RC painting of the crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven.

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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2005, 07:26:49 PM »

PS. The Psalms also, quite often, mention musical instruments. Maybe we should use those to, eh? Grin Forget organs, let the loud cymbals crash!   

Ahh, yes, but we're not talking about Orthodox practice; the comment about clapping hands with the Psalmic reference was in rebuttal to:

Do you imagine that the Jews were laughing, clapping, and carrying on during the Temple prayers? I doubt it.

There were precincts of the temple where the instruments were used; just not in the inner chambers (the Holy, the Holy of Holies; etc).  Do I advocate any of that in Church - of course not; I'm an advocate of the 100% natural God-given instrument: the human voice.
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2005, 11:46:24 PM »

Cleveland,

While I would agree that that was what he was responding to, I still think that GIC went too far in making such things appear acceptable by sarcastically comparing it to the Church of St. John. By bringing up St. John, GIC seemed (to me at least) to be arguing that clapping and such couldn't be too bad, or it might even be perfectly fine. I mean, if he had brought St. John up and said "So this is not a new problem," that is one thing; however, I got the impression that GIC was implying that it was a problem that didn't require dealing with, which I would disagree with. Though, admittedly, this might just be another example of GIC provoking in an attempt to generate discussion. Perhaps I'm just a bad discerner. Blah!ÂÂ  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2005, 12:15:46 AM »

Cleveland,

While I would agree that that was what he was responding to, I still think that GIC went too far in making such things appear acceptable by sarcastically comparing it to the Church of St. John. By bringing up St. John, GIC seemed (to me at least) to be arguing that clapping and such couldn't be too bad, or it might even be perfectly fine. I mean, if he had brought St. John up and said "So this is not a new problem," that is one thing; however, I got the impression that GIC was implying that it was a problem that didn't require dealing with, which I would disagree with. Though, admittedly, this might just be another example of GIC provoking in an attempt to generate discussion. Perhaps I'm just a bad discerner. Blah!  Grin


I would further add and even go as far to say that GIC's preponderous use of "the Great Church of Christ" in representing the Church of Constantinople is in fact dangerous to his spiritual health.  He says this as if anyone or any other local Orthodox Church is less, as if only "His" Church does things the right way, would never do things the wrong way and even can not do anything wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2005, 02:01:42 AM »

Cleveland,

While I would agree that that was what he was responding to, I still think that GIC went too far in making such things appear acceptable by sarcastically comparing it to the Church of St. John. By bringing up St. John, GIC seemed (to me at least) to be arguing that clapping and such couldn't be too bad, or it might even be perfectly fine. I mean, if he had brought St. John up and said "So this is not a new problem," that is one thing; however, I got the impression that GIC was implying that it was a problem that didn't require dealing with, which I would disagree with. Though, admittedly, this might just be another example of GIC provoking in an attempt to generate discussion. Perhaps I'm just a bad discerner. Blah!ÂÂ  Grin

Your latter statement was probably the most acute, but I did want to make the point that the 'traditional' liturgical enviroment was far more casual than today's; the distinction in enviroments, traditionally, was not between conservative and liberal but rather between Parish and Monastery, thus it should be acknowledged that these 'innovations' that people complain about are as old as the Church, the Parish has always had a more casual atmosphere, which can be seen most radically in the early Church, but is apparent until the first fall of the City. And as cleveland correctly pointed out, the emphasis on monastic tradition was done out of necessity, but much of our Orthodox Culture, Tradition, and Faith was lost with the sacking and eventually final fall of the City, probably never to be recovered. But with the historical context established, as far as personal opinion, as has been seen in many of my other posts I am quite distraught to see any deviation from the Typika of the Greek Patriarchates; but seeing how this was a post-liturgical event, I wouldn't list it as a problem on the same level as some of the other liturgical abnormalities of the Antiochians that we have discussed in the past.

I would further add and even go as far to say that GIC's preponderous use of "the Great Church of Christ" in representing the Church of Constantinople is in fact dangerous to his spiritual health. He says this as if anyone or any other local Orthodox Church is less, as if only "His" Church does things the right way, would never do things the wrong way and even can not do anything wrong.

And I find your disrespect towards the Great Church of Christ, especially considering the fact that you technically live under the Omophorion of the Oecumenical Patriarch, to be dangerous to your spiritual health...but of course both your statement and mine are politically motivated. Furthermore, the Respect I give to the Great Church is not on account of it being 'My' Church, but rather on account of the posistion that the Patriarchate holds, the Posistion of the First See of Christendom and as the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2005, 02:20:33 AM »

Actually Elish doesn't live under the Patriarch's omniphoron.  His is a member of the OCA with is under the omniphoron of Metr. Herman.  Or if you wish to consider the OCA part of the Patriarchate of Moscow then Elisha is ultimately under the omniphoron of Patriarch Alexii of Moscow.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is not and has never been an episcopus episcorum for the entire Church.   
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2005, 03:48:27 AM »

Actually Elish doesn't live under the Patriarch's omniphoron.  His is a member of the OCA with is under the omniphoron of Metr. Herman.  Or if you wish to consider the OCA part of the Patriarchate of Moscow then Elisha is ultimately under the omniphoron of Patriarch Alexii of Moscow.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is not and has never been an episcopus episcorum for the entire Church.   

Yes.  Thank you, Idiot.  Smiley

Your latter statement was probably the most acute, but I did want to make the point that the 'traditional' liturgical enviroment was far more casual than today's; the distinction in enviroments, traditionally, was not between conservative and liberal but rather between Parish and Monastery, thus it should be acknowledged that these 'innovations' that people complain about are as old as the Church, the Parish has always had a more casual atmosphere, which can be seen most radically in the early Church, but is apparent until the first fall of the City. And as cleveland correctly pointed out, the emphasis on monastic tradition was done out of necessity, but much of our Orthodox Culture, Tradition, and Faith was lost with the sacking and eventually final fall of the City, probably never to be recovered. But with the historical context established, as far as personal opinion, as has been seen in many of my other posts I am quite distraught to see any deviation from the Typika of the Greek Patriarchates; but seeing how this was a post-liturgical event, I wouldn't list it as a problem on the same level as some of the other liturgical abnormalities of the Antiochians that we have discussed in the past.

1) Never to be recovered....hmmmmm....and yet you blast "Western Rite" Orthodox as if it is some completel innvotion or the false resurrecting of a dead tradition.  I think the more appropriate new nickname, Orthodox Pharisee may be more appropriate.

2) distraught at the Typika deviation....now this is just flat out unOrthodox.  The Orthodox Church believes in the Baptizing of a People, and a TRUE, ORGANIC development of culture.  You just said above that this is distraughtful.  You betray Christ in His creation.  Christ and the Church is not about the Helleinic world.  It amazes me that you don't even TRY in the LEAST to appreciate Christ in His creation  in any other form then anything that is not Hellenic.

There is some silly phrase out there..."Everyone is either Greek or wishes that they were Greek."  Well, we know you fall under the latter...which is truly sad that you are actually falling for this ethnocentric phrase.

There is GREEK man in my parish that could smack you silly with sense (as he could smack many of us).  You should visit us and let him.

And I find your disrespect towards the Great Church of Christ, especially considering the fact that you technically live under the Omophorion of the Oecumenical Patriarch, to be dangerous to your spiritual health...but of course both your statement and mine are politically motivated. Furthermore, the Respect I give to the Great Church is not on account of it being 'My' Church, but rather on account of the posistion that the Patriarchate holds, the Posistion of the First See of Christendom and as the Oecumenical Patriarchate.

But you're assuming I'm disrespecting the Oecumenical Patriarchate.  I'm not.  I lament the state that the See of Constantinople is in, but accept the reality as well.  It is you, by your haughty attitude that fails to give ANY respect to any other Orthodox See.
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2005, 06:59:11 AM »

1) Never to be recovered....hmmmmm....and yet you blast "Western Rite" Orthodox as if it is some completel innvotion or the false resurrecting of a dead tradition. I think the more appropriate new nickname, Orthodox Pharisee may be more appropriate. 

Not that I need to be some sort of GiC defender, but I know that one of his major objections to the "Western Rite" is that it is not in the Liturgical Tradition of the Church of Antioch, which is an objection bourne out of the environment of the past 900 years where, within each Patriarchate, we see the establishment of a uniform Liturgical practice (thanks in large part to the invasions of the Moslems, which forced the churches to do as much as they could to be strong...).  The principle thus becomes centered around each "local church" (here referring to each Patriarchate) having the same liturgical tradition as a sign of unity between the hierarchs - the use of the "western rite" in America would, at different points in our Church's history, have been a sign of disunity.

Of course, this whole idea disregards the fact that for awhile you had many different liturgical traditions coexisting even within each Patriarchate during the period before this current one.  Not that I want to go back to the state where it was before, where each bishop would chose on their own which liturgy to use, but it would be nice to see the different proper liturgies get used again within each church.

2) distraught at the Typika deviation....now this is just flat out unOrthodox. The Orthodox Church believes in the Baptizing of a People, and a TRUE, ORGANIC development of culture. You just said above that this is distraughtful. You betray Christ in His creation. Christ and the Church is not about the Helleinic world. It amazes me that you don't even TRY in the LEAST to appreciate Christ in His creation in any other form then anything that is not Hellenic. 

How do you and GiC define "Hellenic?"  I hope one is not referring to "Hellenic" as Greek and the other as "Roman/Rum" - then we would be comparing apples and oranges.  Gic doesn't extol "Greek" in the ethnic sense; trust me, he sees all the failings of "Greek" here at HC.  He does advocate the use of the Greek Language in Liturgy, but its Liturgical Greek - which has nothing to do with the ethnicity; he also likes Latin, which should demonstrate that he just wants the original languages used in the liturgies (we always have the debates here at school about which translations to use: some are wonderful, some take liberties; it is often enough to drive someone to the perspective of not using them much at all). 

But you're assuming I'm disrespecting the Oecumenical Patriarchate. I'm not. I lament the state that the See of Constantinople is in, but accept the reality as well. It is you, by your haughty attitude that fails to give ANY respect to any other Orthodox See. 

He does like throwing around the "Great Church of Christ" a lot, doesn't he?  Well, in our tradition it is the only way in which Agia Sophia is referred to - the Cathedral Church of Constantinople, in all our official ecclesiastical documents, is referred to as the "Great Church of Christ" - both in reference to Agia Sophia itself, and to the Holy Orthodox Church which was manifest through the life and activity in said church.

Of course, GiC could be a bit more judicious when he uses the name of the Great Church - I don't think anyone needs to get beat over the head with the name.
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2005, 10:45:12 AM »

There are good and bad reasons to switch parishes... 

But if you switch because one parish is "more correct" than the other there is no stopping that mentality.  Soon ROCOR will be far too liberal, especially if you are among mostly Russians and fewer converts.  Then then you'll have to leave for the next most correct jurisdiction - ROCiE, ROAC etc.  And eventually as they groups like ROAC go through their annual schism you'll be getting more correct and eventually it will be just you, your icons and readers' services. 

Um, I gotta take a little offense at that.  ROCOR has actually gotten more conservative than how I remember it when I was little, the Russians from Russia that actually go to church (not the ones that show up a couple times a year) tend to be more conservative than the cradle ROCOR, and the American converts... well, yeah, they tend to be stricter than most cradles, but I've seen some Russians that are way more.  And ROCie, ROAC... well, I have my opinions on that but I don't have enough energy to open a can of worms.  ROCOR now is definitely not the ROCOR of my childhood, but I'm not going to go on that tirade either at the moment.
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2005, 11:41:07 AM »

Which he will have to purge as he discovers they are western influenced Wink

I just wanted to make it clear that I was speaking generally and not actually about Beavis. I wouldn't want Beavis to think I am stereotyping him, which might have been unclear when I wrote this.  I was thinking in general about people who go down this route.

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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2005, 11:56:15 AM »

eh???  No worries, I didn't think you were talking about me. 

Perhaps instead of following the "discontent" crowd into schism, maybe I (and everyone else) should simply speak our concern to the Bishops and change from the inside.  I think it's time to speak out against spineless clergy who let the Curly, Moe, and Larry have their way.
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2005, 12:37:41 PM »

eh???ÂÂ  No worries, I didn't think you were talking about me.ÂÂ  

Perhaps instead of following the "discontent" crowd into schism, maybe I (and everyone else) should simply speak our concern to the Bishops and change from the inside.ÂÂ  I think it's time to speak out against spineless clergy who let the Curly, Moe, and Larry have their way.

Nekatarios (Silouan) and I differ on "resistance from within for theological reasons" in that he chooses to work from within a la Athonites while I am a member of the Greek Old Calendarist Church.  Despite my support for my Church, I would say to join a body for liturgical reasons would be to have a schismatic mindset and I believe you are correct to fight from within if your concern is liturgical matters as you previously stated.

Voicing your concerns will oftentimes get you "unliked" but as long as you do it politely and within reason I think that you are doing a service to the Church.

Best wishes on getting things straightened out.

Anastasios
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2005, 12:51:45 PM »

showing off more legs and breasts than a KFC.

sorry....I apologize for the fowl language.
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« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2005, 12:59:24 PM »

Ania - I wasn't at all insulting ROCOR or the new Russian immigrants by what I said.  It was an insult towards the super correct mentality.  So please don't be offended.  FWIW I wouldn't be insulting the people or jurisidiction of the parish I most often go to now (ROCOR - I'm on leave from the GOA here since they start liturgy later and take forever, which isn't cool when I have to get to work right after church).

What I was getting at is the super correctness minded people will find fault with almost any normal cradle - I could even see then finding Athonite monks to "have it all wrong." ÂÂ

Anastasios - ÂÂ I think the "mainstream" Orthodox Churches (i.e the EP, ROCOR etc.) are the Orthodox Church. ÂÂ I am not "working from inside" at anything, I'm confident Christ heals his own body when it is sick without me "working from inside." ÂÂ  
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« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2005, 01:09:31 PM »


Anastasios - ÂÂ I think the "mainstream" Orthodox Churches (i.e the EP, ROCOR etc.) are the Orthodox Church. ÂÂ I am not "working from inside" at anything, I'm confident Christ heals his own body when it is sick without me "working from inside." ÂÂ  

Right, as I think about my own Church, but I am speaking objectively and hence tried to put things into such a perspective.  From my perspective, you are working from within; from your perspective I am working from without (and from either of our perspectives the others' perspective might be misguided or worse although I personally think eventually they will coalesce).  But from our own perspectives, we are doing what any Christian would do: living an Orthodox life as best as we can.

As far as the assertion that Christ can heal his own body, I agree that Christ heals his own body, but through humans.  Hence, we must work for change when confronted with modernism and ecumenism.

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« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2005, 01:45:26 PM »

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From my perspective, you are working from within

But I don't even claim to be working on anything - so how can I be working from within?
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« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2005, 02:02:22 PM »

Actually Elish doesn't live under the Patriarch's omniphoron.  His is a member of the OCA with is under the omniphoron of Metr. Herman.  Or if you wish to consider the OCA part of the Patriarchate of Moscow then Elisha is ultimately under the omniphoron of Patriarch Alexii of Moscow.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is not and has never been an episcopus episcorum for the entire Church.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

The best I can figure Elisha lives in California, which is a state in the United States, which is outside the traditional bounds of the Russian Church, thus, as the Oecumenical Throne maintains, under the 28th Canon of Chalcedon these lands are technically under the Great Church of Christ. While the Patriarchate may allow foreign entities to administer Churches for pastoral reasons within His lands, this does not change the Authority that the Oecumenical Patriarchate exersizes over His lands, thus, like it or not, everyone in the Diaspora is properly under the Oecumenical Patriarch, even those who attend the Churches of the Russian Metropolia.

Yes. Thank you, Idiot. Smiley

WOW, I just dont know how to reply to such an elegant apology, but I'll give it a try...see above.

Quote
1) Never to be recovered....hmmmmm....and yet you blast "Western Rite" Orthodox as if it is some completel innvotion or the false resurrecting of a dead tradition. I think the more appropriate new nickname, Orthodox Pharisee may be more appropriate.

While I think much was lost with the replacing of the Cathedral Rite by the Monastic Rite, one of the reasons I say 'never to be recovered' is because after 500 years it would be highly inappropriate to try and resurrect a dead liturgy, for better or worse we have the Liturgy we have today, and it is the one that we should use...the one that all of our Churches should use regardless of 'rite.'

Quote
2) distraught at the Typika deviation....now this is just flat out unOrthodox. The Orthodox Church believes in the Baptizing of a People, and a TRUE, ORGANIC development of culture. You just said above that this is distraughtful. You betray Christ in His creation. Christ and the Church is not about the Helleinic world. It amazes me that you don't even TRY in the LEAST to appreciate Christ in His creation in any other form then anything that is not Hellenic.

Liturgical evolution is one thing, such as the development in the differences between the Greek and Slavic liturgies that came about over the last 1000 years, but a significant and fundamental alteration to the Liturgy (e.g. western rite, cathedral rite, etc.) is not acceptable, for that is not an organic development of culture, but rather a revolutionary movement to alter the fundementals of Christian Praxis to be consonant with our own nationalistc biases.

Quote
There is some silly phrase out there..."Everyone is either Greek or wishes that they were Greek." Well, we know you fall under the latter...which is truly sad that you are actually falling for this ethnocentric phrase.

In the proper sense of refering to the Culture of the Empire, you are correct, if you think that I want to be Greek in terms of the Modern EU Member Nation-State of Greece, though I have respect for their Culture and People, no I dont want to be Greek.

Quote
There is GREEK man in my parish that could smack you silly with sense (as he could smack many of us). You should visit us and let him.

Is he Greek insofar as he maintains the Customs, Culture, and Traditions of the Empire or does he just have extra vowels in his last name?

Quote
But you're assuming I'm disrespecting the Oecumenical Patriarchate. I'm not. I lament the state that the See of Constantinople is in, but accept the reality as well. It is you, by your haughty attitude that fails to give ANY respect to any other Orthodox See.

I have respect for all the Orthodox Sees, but the See worthy of the Greatest Respect and Honour is Constantinople, and after her Alexandria, then Antioch, and Jerusalem...you get the picture.

How do you and GiC define "Hellenic?" I hope one is not referring to "Hellenic" as Greek and the other as "Roman/Rum" - then we would be comparing apples and oranges. Gic doesn't extol "Greek" in the ethnic sense; trust me, he sees all the failings of "Greek" here at HC. He does advocate the use of the Greek Language in Liturgy, but its Liturgical Greek - which has nothing to do with the ethnicity; he also likes Latin, which should demonstrate that he just wants the original languages used in the liturgies (we always have the debates here at school about which translations to use: some are wonderful, some take liberties; it is often enough to drive someone to the perspective of not using them much at all).

Thank you, I believe we have already had the discussion of 'what does GiC mean when he extols the greatness of Greek Culture and it's centrality to the Church.' Thus, I had assumed that I did not need to clarify again, but I guess I was wrong.

Quote
Of course, GiC could be a bit more judicious when he uses the name of the Great Church - I don't think anyone needs to get beat over the head with the name.

I could, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun Wink
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« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2005, 02:43:10 PM »

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Quote from: Elisha on Yesterday at 11:48:27 PM
Yes. Thank you, Idiot.

WOW, I just dont know how to reply to such an elegant apology, but I'll give it a try...see above.

See below my user name and consider that post was in response to me. 


As for the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, I think President Andrew Jackson's reply to Chief Justice Marshall is apt, "John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."  Or better yet when in the history of the Church has Istanbul actually had jurisdiction over all non-imperial lands?  And since the empire is defunct now (in case you hadn't noticed its been gone a lot time now) the definition of who exactly are the Barbari remains.  In imperial days a barbarus was one who didn't speak Latin or Greek.  If you transfer the meaning of that concept and get past your literal fundamentalism you'd be able to accept that English, French and German are the Greek and Latin of the world today - so who really are the babarians now?

What happens when the formerly great Church of Istanbul is finally eradicated off the face of the earth?  Istanbul has long ceased to be the center of the Orthodox world...

As for you assertation that non Greek jurisdictions are in America by the grace of the Istanbul Patriarchate - that would be like Saddam Hussein saying the American/British occupation is allowed to administer the situation in Iraq. 

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« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2005, 02:51:44 PM »

Silouan, you may remember that Jerusalem was awarded a Patriarchal See not because of its demographic or political status, but because of the spiritual honor of the Great City.  Constantinople, after 1500 years of greatness, deserves such an honor in my opinion.  Because of this honor, the fact that it is no longer a politically significant city should not invalidate its claim to universality.
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« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2005, 03:15:02 PM »

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem has a real flock and is hardly seeking to grasp jurisdiction over the entire world.  Istanbul is a fading memory with an ever shrinking flock.  Eventually all that will be left is a Turkish run meuseum about the Phanar (after all a meuseum turns more a profit than just an empty building). 
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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2005, 03:21:44 PM »

So would you suggest moving the EP to New York or Tokyo?  In light of the fact that there is no longer an Orthodox empire, it wouldn't make sense to move it to the newest politically significant city; yet there has to be some centralization somewhere, otherwise the flock will run astray.  It took a while for Moscow to be trustworthy.....and New Amsterdam,...er I mean York, is a far cry from that.  Solution?  Keep the EP in Constantinople out of time-honored tradition.
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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2005, 03:26:18 PM »

Six feet below the earth would suffice. 
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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2005, 03:47:23 PM »

But I don't even claim to be working on anything - so how can I be working from within?

It is not solely dependent on your pereception, though.  You are opposed to ecumenism and modernism, right? And make that known? So you are working on something.

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« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2005, 03:48:14 PM »

So would you suggest moving the EP to New York or Tokyo?ÂÂ  In light of the fact that there is no longer an Orthodox empire, it wouldn't make sense to move it to the newest politically significant city; yet there has to be some centralization somewhere, otherwise the flock will run astray.ÂÂ  It took a while for Moscow to be trustworthy.....and New Amsterdam,...er I mean York, is a far cry from that.ÂÂ  Solution?ÂÂ  Keep the EP in Constantinople out of time-honored tradition.

My suggestion would be reunite the Church of Greece and Constantinople and make the Archbishop of Athens patriarch.  Just how the Patriarch of "Antioch" lives in Damascus.

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« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2005, 03:56:11 PM »

The best I can figure Elisha lives in California, which is a state in the United States, which is outside the traditional bounds of the Russian Church, thus, as the Oecumenical Throne maintains, under the 28th Canon of Chalcedon these lands are technically under the Great Church of Christ. While the Patriarchate may allow foreign entities to administer Churches for pastoral reasons within His lands, this does not change the Authority that the Oecumenical Patriarchate exersizes over His lands, thus, like it or not, everyone in the Diaspora is properly under the Oecumenical Patriarch, even those who attend the Churches of the Russian Metropolia.

Regarding this here is a summary of the Russian understanding of Chalcedon 28:
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/currentissues/diaspora.cfm

And here is the text of the canon in question:

Quote
Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome.  For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.  And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (ἴσα πρεσβεῖα) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.

It seems to me that the canon only gives Constantinople authority over Barbarians in the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses. Not anywhere where "Barbarians" are found.

Anastasios
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« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2005, 04:17:29 PM »

Re: Athens and the EP.  Under the current situation it is not the same as Antioch's move to Damascus.  Damascus is within the canonical territory of Antioch, whereas Athens is not within Istanbul's territory. ÂÂ

As to ''working within" : I'm simply trying to live my life within the patristic tradition as I have been taught it. ÂÂ My "cause" only has superficial similarites to that of your synod. ÂÂ While we both may see ecumenism as an error in judgement and see various abuses of economy in the Church today - I do not seek to usurp the Church. ÂÂ Your synod officially declares the Church to be graceless and your leader calls himself the Archbishop of Athens. ÂÂ  That is not my agenda nor my cause. ÂÂ
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« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2005, 05:11:07 PM »

Not that I want to waste much of my time on another GiC folly, it should be pointed out that Constantinople had some 600 years to object to the Roman colonization of barbaric Western Europe.

I'll go along with this comment:

As for the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, I think President Andrew Jackson's reply to Chief Justice Marshall is apt, "John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."

The truth of the matter is that the American situation will eventually be resolved by SCOBA or some essentially similar body. On that day the EP or his successor will recognize this and cease his obstruction of union, but other than that he has nothing to contribute that I can see.
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« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2005, 05:39:17 PM »

Re: Athens and the EP.  Under the current situation it is not the same as Antioch's move to Damascus.  Damascus is within the canonical territory of Antioch, whereas Athens is not within Istanbul's territory. ÂÂ

Which is why I said reunite the two churches first.

Quote
As to ''working within" : I'm simply trying to live my life within the patristic tradition as I have been taught it. ÂÂ My "cause" only has superficial similarites to that of your synod. ÂÂ While we both may see ecumenism as an error in judgement and see various abuses of economy in the Church today - I do not seek to usurp the Church. ÂÂ Your synod officially declares the Church to be graceless and your leader calls himself the Archbishop of Athens. ÂÂ  That is not my agenda nor my cause. ÂÂ

First of all, I wouldn't label it a cause at all; at heart we want the same simple thing: to preserve Orthodoxy by living "within the patristic tradition as [we have] been taught it."  As I said, we differ on the way to achieve this.  I don't see the similarities as superficial at all; I see the Old Calendarists and the traditionalist anti-ecumenist New Calendarists as one in spirit albeit currently not united in approach, much as the Nicenes and Neo-Nicenes were originally against each other but then united in the 4th century.  Perhaps you will disagree.

The issue of church polity ("usurpation" as you call it) is of secondary importance; because we disagree on the effects of ecumenism we dealt with the issue differently, but this is an effect and not part of the original root of the problem.  Things developed the way they did but nothing is yet set in stone.  We are not usurping the Church, we are just doing what the Church does: ordaining bishops and priests in order to carry on the Orthodox faith, and not giving in to the heresy of ecumenism. Of course you will disagree, but I acknowledged in my initial post a difference in views on remedying the problem of ecumenism.

Anastasios

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« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2005, 05:59:31 PM »

As for the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, I think President Andrew Jackson's reply to Chief Justice Marshall is apt, "John Marshall has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."ÂÂ  Or better yet when in the history of the Church has Istanbul actually had jurisdiction over all non-imperial lands?ÂÂ  And since the empire is defunct now (in case you hadn't noticed its been gone a lot time now) the definition of who exactly are the Barbari remains.ÂÂ  In imperial days a barbarus was one who didn't speak Latin or Greek.ÂÂ  If you transfer the meaning of that concept and get past your literal fundamentalism you'd be able to accept that English, French and German are the Greek and Latin of the world today - so who really are the babarians now?

What happens when the formerly great Church of Istanbul is finally eradicated off the face of the earth?ÂÂ  Istanbul has long ceased to be the center of the Orthodox world...

As for you assertation that non Greek jurisdictions are in America by the grace of the Istanbul Patriarchate - that would be like Saddam Hussein saying the American/British occupation is allowed to administer the situation in Iraq.ÂÂ  

Ah, yes, the Nietzschean approach to Orthodox Ecclesiology, why didn't I consider this perspective and take it seriously? Hmmm...if you want to be Nietzschean fine, I actually respect the guy for the consistancy of his Philosophy, but his epistemology is fundamentally different than that of the Orthodox and really has no rational place in the discussion of Ecclesiology.

As far as who the barbarians are, that's an easy one, since our canonical structure is based on the civil law system of Rome, and not common law, barbarian lands can be defined to be all lands outside the bounds of the Empire on the day the canon was promulgated in A.D. 451. Since our canonical system is based on civil law this will continue to be the definition until such time as the canonical legislation is amended by a future Oecumenical Synod.

Regarding this here is a summary of the Russian understanding of Chalcedon 28:
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/currentissues/diaspora.cfm

I have read the article and the assumptions are based upon a flaw in logic, as well as being inconsonant with the implications of the canonical interpreters:

Quote
It seems to me that the canon only gives Constantinople authority over Barbarians in the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses. Not anywhere where "Barbarians" are found.

This assumption, which is the the Assumption of Patriarch Alexis, is based on a fundamental problem in the understanding of Orthodox Ecclesiology, His Beatitude states in the article you cited:

Quote
It seems obvious that this inaccurate interpretation derives from an erroneous understanding of the term 'among the barbarians' (en tois barbarikois) and of the context of this _expression. It is erroneous in that it assumes that the issue here does not concern 'barbarian' peoples living either in the Roman Empire or beyond its limits, but administrative entities (defined by the State) and inhabited primarily by 'barbarians'. Yet there is no doubt but that this _expression refers not to provinces but to peoples; it is not used in an administrative, but in an ethnic sense.

This essentially states that the Episcopal boundaries established by the Fourth Oecumenical Synod were not Geographical but rather Ethnic, which is inconsonant with every notion of Orthodox Ecclesiology and quite unreasonable to assume that this was the intention of the Canon. In fact it was a notion so foreign to the Church that the interpretors automatically assumed the meaning was in reference to the barbarian nations, which would have been lands beyond the Empire. It was not an attempt to create overlaping jurisdictions giving Constantinople direct control over certain 'Barbarian Bishops' within the Dioceseses of Asia, Thrace, and Pontus independent of the Metropolitans. Along these lines, His Eminence Metropolitan Panteleimon Rodopoulos of Tyroloe and Serentios, in his article 'Territorial Jurisdiction According to Orthodox Canon Law. The Phenomenon of Ethnophyletism in Recent Years,' states:

Quote
By a decision (Canon 28) which is of universal status and validity, the 4th Ecumenical Synod confirmed a long tradition and action of the Church as regards the canonical jurisdiction and the territory of the Ecumenical Throne. The geographical extent of its own ground was extended to the then administrations of the Roman Empire in Pontus, Asia and Thrace, as well as to the "barbarian" lands, i. e. those which were outside the boundaries of the then Roman Empire: "... only the metropolitans of the Pontic, Asian and Thracian dioceses shall be ordained by the aforesaid Most Holy Throne of the Most Holy Church of Constantinople and likewise the bishops of the aforesaid dioceses which are situated in barbarian lands..."

The adjective “barbarian” defines the noun "nations," which is omitted from the text of the canon, but which is to be inferred, as Zonaras interprets it [Interpretation of Zonaras of the above canon]. Barbarian nations or countries are, as has been said, those provinces which lay beyond the Roman Empire at the time of the 4th Ecumenical Synod: "While it called bishoprics of the barbarians those of Alania, Russia and others" [Interpretation of Valsamon of Canon 28 of the 4th Ecumenical Synod]. The other barbarian lands, apart from Alania and Russia, are, in general, "the Barbarians," according to the interpretation of Aristenos of Canon 28: "... the (bishops ) of Pontus and Thrace and Asia, as well as the Barbarians, are consecrated by the Patriarch of Constantinople..."
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2005, 08:47:03 PM »

Liturgical evolution is one thing, such as the development in the differences between the Greek and Slavic liturgies that came about over the last 1000 years, but a significant and fundamental alteration to the Liturgy (e.g. western rite, cathedral rite, etc.) is not acceptable, for that is not an organic development of culture, but rather a revolutionary movement to alter the fundementals of Christian Praxis to be consonant with our own nationalistc biases.
I don't think you have any leg to stand on regarding cathedral vs monastic rite.  Western Rite is reality to live with in the meantime, but the case against it is definitely understandable (I'm torn myself).

In the proper sense of refering to the Culture of the Empire, you are correct, if you think that I want to be Greek in terms of the Modern EU Member Nation-State of Greece, though I have respect for their Culture and People, no I dont want to be Greek.
You're doing a wonderful job of fooling us then.

Is he Greek insofar as he maintains the Customs, Culture, and Traditions of the Empire or does he just have extra vowels in his last name?
Your reference to the Empire is absolutely meaningless...considering that it hasn't existed for quite some time.  Those that follow the C, C & T as you think would be few and far between.  No, this guy is a pious and knowledgeable guy with much experience to draw from.  His family name was shortened from Paniotokopolous (sp?) to Panages by his father (or Grandfather) when they arrived on Ellis Island (and I've been given props for pronouncing it right as well Grin). 

I have respect for all the Orthodox Sees, but the See worthy of the Greatest Respect and Honour is Constantinople, and after her Alexandria, then Antioch, and Jerusalem...you get the picture.
Just because one See outranks another doesn't mean the See can not err or that another See has infeior praxis/customs.  But keep implying otherwise.

I could, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun Wink
...and you are likewise entitled to keep acting pompous about...even if it is detrimental toward your spiritual health.

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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2005, 10:49:26 PM »

Six feet below the earth would suffice.

Not necessary.


Oh, did I mention I like big fonts?
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« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2005, 03:50:12 AM »

In a smaller font...

Quote
Not necessary.

Oh, did I mention I like big fonts?

I guess I was dramatic, but it was to make a point.  If the Patriarchate is wiped out tomorrow (and not just the EP, assume any entire local church or even a few of them) it would not be an impossible loss for Orthodoxy (of course the huminitarian situation of it would be awful).  The other local churches would have to pick up their weight, but essentially their daily life wouldn't change.  It is not like Roman Catholicism that basicly cannot function without the Papal office - that is what I was getting at. 

And I would like to point out that I have no axe to grind against the jurisdiction in which I was brought into Orthodoxy.  I think I was one of the few in the GOA during my time there that thought that OCL style rebellion from the Patriarchate was wrong...

Quote
Ah, yes, the Nietzschean approach to Orthodox Ecclesiology, why didn't I consider this perspective and take it seriously? Hmmm...if you want to be Nietzschean fine, I actually respect the guy for the consistancy of his Philosophy, but his epistemology is fundamentally different than that of the Orthodox and really has no rational place in the discussion of Ecclesiology.

Call it whatever you want, but it is ultimately pragmatic.  EP has never once in its history been able to enforce Patriarch Bartholomew's understanding of the canon.  Nor can it reasonably be demonstrated that previous Patriarchs claimed this jurisdiction over the entire world, and of course none of them did in actuality.  Afterall Russia had a handfull of churches in Western Europe (in real barbarous places like Germany!) for hundreds of years without a protest from the EP. 

What about places like Japan or Alaska that had established missions - do these also belong to the EP?


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« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2005, 03:57:43 AM »

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I see the Old Calendarists and the traditionalist anti-ecumenist New Calendarists as one in spirit albeit currently not united in approach

I have nothing in common with people such as Matthew of Vresthene nor the other opportunists and con artists of the Old Calendarist movement.  Now I do believe many in the movement are probably sincere but the ubiquiety of the Matthewite Ecclesiology completely seperates the movement from those within the Church.  Fr. Seraphim Rose realized this in his later years - that those who he had though were like minded "traditionalists" weren't friends of the church at all if they were infected with super-correctness.
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« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2005, 07:58:19 AM »

I guess I was dramatic, but it was to make a point.

I understand the desire to get the point across, but in the process you sounded as if you had malice in your heart, a condition I didn't think was true; thus, why I called you out on it.

If the Patriarchate is wiped out tomorrow (and not just the EP, assume any entire local church or even a few of them) it would not be an impossible loss for Orthodoxy (of course the huminitarian situation of it would be awful). The other local churches would have to pick up their weight, but essentially their daily life wouldn't change. It is not like Roman Catholicism that basicly cannot function without the Papal office - that is what I was getting at.   

And I agree 100% that if the EP was some day wiped out (God forbid), then Orthodoxy would continue to march along. 

And I would like to point out that I have no axe to grind against the jurisdiction in which I was brought into Orthodoxy. I think I was one of the few in the GOA during my time there that thought that OCL style rebellion from the Patriarchate was wrong... 

I would happen to be one of the few others that didn't like the OCL's approach; and, of course, I have members of the aforementioned group that are members of my parish (and good people, to boot) - which makes my position a bit more difficult, but no less necessary.  But what I've come to appreciate is that the forces pulling on either side of the Church - in the GOA's case, you have the OCL on the one hand, and the super-Greeks (like those who write about the church in Greek newspapers like the National Herald) on the other - these forces help keep the church centered (as long as we don't let them pull us apart) by helping us see the evil inherent in either extreme, and forcing us to focus on the central way.
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« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2005, 09:13:24 AM »

I have nothing in common with people such as Matthew of Vresthene nor the other opportunists and con artists of the Old Calendarist movement.ÂÂ  Now I do believe many in the movement are probably sincere but the ubiquiety of the Matthewite Ecclesiology completely seperates the movement from those within the Church.ÂÂ  Fr. Seraphim Rose realized this in his later years - that those who he had though were like minded "traditionalists" weren't friends of the church at all if they were infected with super-correctness.

Nektarie, like it or not, you have a lot in common with Matthewites and other Old Calendarists in that the majority of Orthodox alive today think people holding either of our positions are right-wing nuts so to speak, and our points of view are both looked down upon in official circles and even in many unofficial ones.

Besides, you are mixing apples and oranges.  Matthewite ecclesiology is not the same thing as super-correctness.  People in any jurisdiction can be super-correct.  Matthewitic ecclesiology--i.e. the theory that grace departed the New Calendarist Church the minute the New Calendar was instituted--is an incorrect and dangerous ecclesiology for sure.  Of course my Synod does not hold a Matthewitic ecclesiology.  We can thank Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna and company for creating a false dichotomy between "moderates" and "extremists" but in reality the ecclesiology the Florinites is more fluid than that and we cannot be lumped in the same category as Matthewites.  The 1974 Encyclical was close to Matthewitic ecclesiology (but not identical) but that was 32 years ago and many things have changed subsquently, and I would note that encyclicals are not infallible.  I would personally like a little more consistency but at the same time too much consistency can be a danger as well.  The question is just ultimately not that important to Florinite Old Calendarists: the Old Calendarists know they are the Church, hope God's grace is working in the New Calendar Church, but believe either way that all should return to the patristic fullness.  That includes ourselves when we quarrel and bicker amongst ourselves in a rather unbecoming way.  As for Old Calendarist conartists, I agree; and hope that you agree when the tables are turned and we are discussing New Calendarist frauds that exist as well (ultimately the issue is moot as a fraud in a church does not discredit it).

Fr Seraphim of Platina was certainly a great spiritual writer and I hope he becomes a saint, but you quote him as if he were an authority on this issue.  At any rate, he was *quite* close with Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna when the latter was still a member of the Auxentian Synod; so I would suggest that as Fr Seraphim was able to distinguish between shades of gray, so should you.

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« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2005, 10:30:50 AM »

...... and make the Archbishop of Athens patriarch.ÂÂ  

Which one?  Wink
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« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2005, 12:11:11 PM »

Which one?ÂÂ  Wink

hehe Smiley

In all seriousness though, I think that should the Patriarchate be moved to Athens and be more influenced by the living, breathing Church of Greece, that it would lead to significant improvements such as less ecumenism that might bode well for an end to the Old Calendar-New Calendar dispute.

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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2005, 12:24:46 PM »

In all seriousness though, I think that should the Patriarchate be moved to Athens and be more influenced by the living, breathing.

Could have stopped there.
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« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2005, 12:48:22 PM »

hehe Smiley

In all seriousness though, I think that should the Patriarchate be moved to Athens and be more influenced by the living, breathing Church of Greece, that it would lead to significant improvements such as less ecumenism that might bode well for an end to the Old Calendar-New Calendar dispute.

Anastasios

Now this is something with which I can readily agree. Especially when one considers that in the 1820s at the initiation of the modern Greek state that the relative backwater of Athens was chosen as the capital because the Turk still held the REAL capital - Constantinople. Too bad the EP couldn't move then, but with 200-300,000 Orthodox still in the City at that time, well...  :'(
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« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2005, 04:20:30 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=7487.msg97296#msg97296 date=1130950102]
Now this is something with which I can readily agree. Especially when one considers that in the 1820s at the initiation of the modern Greek state that the relative backwater of Athens was chosen as the capital because the Turk still held the REAL capital - Constantinople. Too bad the EP couldn't move then, but with 200-300,000 Orthodox still in the City at that time, well... :'(     [/quote]

One could even argue that he can't move now either - remember, the first title is "Archbishop of Constantinople" - he is still bishop of the city and responsible for the flock; if the flock is this small and he is there, imagine how it would shrink if he left.  His role as Patriarch of the Ecumeni is nice, and has its responsibilities - but it does not change the fact that his first responsibilities are to his local flock (the flock on whom his salvation largely rests).
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« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2005, 04:29:57 PM »

Thank you, brother cleveland.

You are perhaps a little too new here and are not aware of my past spirited defenses (defences, in other circles) for the Ecumenical Patriarchate remaining exactly where it is.

Demetri, whose family still 'owns' property now stolen by the Turks in the City  Undecided
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« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2005, 04:34:43 PM »

One could even argue that he can't move now either - remember, the first title is "Archbishop of Constantinople" - he is still bishop of the city and responsible for the flock

Hah! Since when do the Greeks worry about a Bishop having a flock? They make them up as needed.
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« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2005, 04:37:32 PM »

Hah! Since when do the Greeks worry about a Bishop having a flock? They make them up as needed.

And apparently include anyone as needed... Grin

Until you go to Turkey my friend and find out for certain how many faithful are really there, this argument goes nowhere.

Until that last γιαγια is gone, the EP will be there.  Wink
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« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2005, 04:50:58 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=7487.msg97344#msg97344 date=1130963852]
Until that last γιαγια is gone, the EP will be there.ÂÂ  Wink
[/quote]

And even then he will still be there. The Greeks can never let go of the "Glory that was Byzantium!"

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« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2005, 07:10:35 PM »

And even then he will still be there. The Greeks can never let go of the "Glory that was Byzantium!"

By George, I think he's got it!
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« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2005, 07:30:37 PM »

May I suggest that we take the last 10 or 15 responses or so of this thread and fuse it with "Hellenism, Romanity, and other issues...."?
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« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2005, 08:23:47 PM »

And even then he will still be there. The Greeks can never let go of the "Glory that was Byzantium!"

You should probably qualify this with "The Greeks in America" - the Greeks in Greece could care less!  The young ones are all Euro-cized, and the old ones aren't fired up anymore.
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« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2005, 09:49:20 PM »

One could even argue that he can't move now either - remember, the first title is "Archbishop of Constantinople" - he is still bishop of the city and responsible for the flock; if the flock is this small and he is there, imagine how it would shrink if he left.ÂÂ  His role as Patriarch of the Ecumeni is nice, and has its responsibilities - but it does not change the fact that his first responsibilities are to his local flock (the flock on whom his salvation largely rests).

There are still I believe around a hundred or so Orthodox in Antioch and the patriarch left there to reside in Damascus 800 years ago Wink  I wonder how long the Greeks in Constantinople will actually last.

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« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2005, 10:53:29 PM »

There are still I believe around a hundred or so Orthodox in Antioch and the patriarch left there to reside in Damascus 800 years ago Wink I wonder how long the Greeks in Constantinople will actually last. 

I guess it really doesn't matter how long they will last - the shepherd's responsibility is to his flock, no matter how small they get - the Patriarch in Antioch decided the move was the best thing for his flock, but we get into danger when we decide to compare the actions of two bishops for the sake of criticizing the decisions of the one.  It's not like the EP is committing heresy by staying; if he was preaching things contrary to the faith, then comparison would be warranted.  Otherwise, his relationship to his flock is a unique one, one that shouldn't be compared (even if there is no malice intended - as in this case).
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« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2005, 10:59:48 PM »

Quote
if he was preaching things contrary to the faith, then comparison would be warranted. 

I don't think that is a debate you would want to start with Anastasios...
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« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2005, 11:25:19 PM »

I don't think that is a debate you would want to start with Anastasios... 

At the moment, I don't think it's a debate I would start with anyone on this board, just because when issues like this come up, it seems that no one (including myself) is actually willing to grow and learn from the discussion; in fact, it would be better off characterizing the "discussions" as "soapbox sessions."
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« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2005, 11:35:08 AM »

I wonder if I could ask some questions, pertaining to the original topic. 
Is traditional better than liberal?  I'm sure this is an opinion answer, so see the other questions before you tackle it.
Is a "traditional" liturgy going to save you any more than a "liberal" one?  Isn't the communion the same?
Ultimately, if you don't like what is going on at your church, you could talk to your priest.  Or you could educate people.  Or you could just go to another church if its bothering you that bad.  Maybe i'm wrong on those. 
Didn't mean to stray away from the current conversation, just wanted to ask those questions and see what people thought. 
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« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2005, 11:41:05 AM »

Cleveland, I was wondering if you could expand on this:

"Liturgical evolution is one thing, such as the development in the differences between the Greek and Slavic liturgies that came about over the last 1000 years, but a significant and fundamental alteration to the Liturgy (e.g. western rite, cathedral rite, etc.) is not acceptable, for that is not an organic development of culture, but rather a revolutionary movement to alter the fundementals of Christian Praxis to be consonant with our own nationalistc biases."

So a "fundamental alteration" would have been the western right and the cathedral right, etc?  IF that is true then we should stick with a "traditional" liturgy because it is not "an organic development of culture"?    Wouldn't you say that today's American culture has organically developed into a cathedral style culture?  There are very few monastic style churches left....right?  It could be half and half I guess...but still, doesn't that call for half the churches to use such "liberal" liturgies for their communities?  Or is it more broad and enveloping.  Sorry for all the questions...take your time, I know you're busy. 
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« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2005, 12:35:14 PM »

Man, I have been through all this before (in terms of the original thread , back on page one; it's gotten so far afield by now; I have this glitsh on my computer - sometimes when I open a thread, there is only one page; I reply, my screen goes blank, I go to a different site, then come back here and find 5 or 3 or 7 pages of discussion. So in terms of being so traditional that you must go through schism after schism to be "pure"...

Man, I have been through all this before

As a former Calvinist we had the TR's the "Totally Reformed" types - more Calvinistic than good old Geneva John was; more Reformed than Johnny " the later iconoclast" Knox of Scotland (who probably destroyed more western church artifacts in one generation than were destroyed during the whole iconoclast controversy in the Eastern church).

we can waste our time straining out knats and swallowing camels, or we can practice love "which covers a multitude of sins."

« Last Edit: December 15, 2005, 12:44:20 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
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« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2005, 02:47:51 PM »

"Liturgical evolution is one thing, such as the development in the differences between the Greek and Slavic liturgies that came about over the last 1000 years, but a significant and fundamental alteration to the Liturgy (e.g. western rite, cathedral rite, etc.) is not acceptable, for that is not an organic development of culture, but rather a revolutionary movement to alter the fundementals of Christian Praxis to be consonant with our own nationalistc biases."

So a "fundamental alteration" would have been the western right and the cathedral right, etc?  IF that is true then we should stick with a "traditional" liturgy because it is not "an organic development of culture"?    Wouldn't you say that today's American culture has organically developed into a cathedral style culture?  There are very few monastic style churches left....right?  It could be half and half I guess...but still, doesn't that call for half the churches to use such "liberal" liturgies for their communities?  Or is it more broad and enveloping.  Sorry for all the questions...take your time, I know you're busy. 

Basically my point was this: if within the community of the Church the Liturgy changes over time - such as the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, for example, which has changed since the 10th century - then that is Liturgical Development and is the product of the Spirit and the Church working together to incarnate the Liturgy.

But, to no offense to those practicing the Western Rite, what you have here is the introduction of a Liturgy to Orthodoxy that has been developing independently of Orthodoxy for hundreds of years, and thus when introduced into Orthodoxy is a radical change to the Liturgical tradition of the Church.  I understand that at one time a liturgy of this style existed in the West, but because it has been gone from Orthodoxy it is now a foreign element being brought in - and the change is too radical to be calling just an "adaptation of the culture."  Even if one wanted to go back to the Western Liturgy pre-schism, that would be a misstep as well, since that Liturgy has been out of the consciousness of the Church for a thousand years, and would thus be also a radical change to the Liturgical life.

The reason why I don't see the adoption of the Western Rite into Orthodoxy as an "adaptation to culture" is that a change in the Liturgical Worship Core of the Church (the Anaphora) has not been a part of any adaptations to the Church for many centuries.  When the Church has gone to Africa, South America, North America, Russia, etc., it has consecrated the culture, baptizing the elements that are good and discarding the elements that oppose the Christian way of life, but while doing so it has also translated the services of the Ancient Church - using one of the existing Liturgical offices, instead of taking any that were present or whatnot.  So the Anaphoras of John, Basil, James, Mark - these are the consecratory prayers and systems used, translated into the local language and explained to them in their own terms and such.

What I could see happening is, in those local Churches (and by this I mean dioceses, metropolises, synods... not individual parishes) that are more in a "western" liturgical mindset, slow adaptation of elements of the Western Liturgy into their own... since the liturgies we use today in the rest of the Orthodox world have changed over the centuries as well.  But a radical change to the praxis of Orthodoxy I think is problematic.

That said, the bishops of the Antiochian Archdiocese see it fit to have Western Rite parishes, so these points are moot in this place and time.  If one of their bishops asked me my honest opinion, I would give it, but the only way to change it is for the bishops, their synod, their patriarch, or an Ecumenical Synod to do so.
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« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2005, 03:05:08 PM »

Basically my point was this: if within the community of the Church the Liturgy changes over time - such as the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, for example, which has changed since the 10th century - then that is Liturgical Development and is the product of the Spirit and the Church working together to incarnate the Liturgy.

But, to no offense to those practicing the Western Rite, what you have here is the introduction of a Liturgy to Orthodoxy that has been developing independently of Orthodoxy for hundreds of years, and thus when introduced into Orthodoxy is a radical change to the Liturgical tradition of the Church.ÂÂ  I understand that at one time a liturgy of this style existed in the West, but because it has been gone from Orthodoxy it is now a foreign element being brought in - and the change is too radical to be calling just an "adaptation of the culture."ÂÂ  Even if one wanted to go back to the Western Liturgy pre-schism, that would be a misstep as well, since that Liturgy has been out of the consciousness of the Church for a thousand years, and would thus be also a radical change to the Liturgical life.

The reason why I don't see the adoption of the Western Rite into Orthodoxy as an "adaptation to culture" is that a change in the Liturgical Worship Core of the Church (the Anaphora) has not been a part of any adaptations to the Church for many centuries.ÂÂ  When the Church has gone to Africa, South America, North America, Russia, etc., it has consecrated the culture, baptizing the elements that are good and discarding the elements that oppose the Christian way of life, but while doing so it has also translated the services of the Ancient Church - using one of the existing Liturgical offices, instead of taking any that were present or whatnot.ÂÂ  So the Anaphoras of John, Basil, James, Mark - these are the consecratory prayers and systems used, translated into the local language and explained to them in their own terms and such.

What I could see happening is, in those local Churches (and by this I mean dioceses, metropolises, synods... not individual parishes) that are more in a "western" liturgical mindset, slow adaptation of elements of the Western Liturgy into their own... since the liturgies we use today in the rest of the Orthodox world have changed over the centuries as well.ÂÂ  But a radical change to the praxis of Orthodoxy I think is problematic.

That said, the bishops of the Antiochian Archdiocese see it fit to have Western Rite parishes, so these points are moot in this place and time.ÂÂ  If one of their bishops asked me my honest opinion, I would give it, but the only way to change it is for the bishops, their synod, their patriarch, or an Ecumenical Synod to do so.

While I may not entirely agree with your opinions above, you have summarized the issues/facts well.  Thanks.
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« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2005, 01:10:30 AM »

Oy vey and gefeltefish.

I get back and the Antiochian Bashing continues.  Why am I not surprised. 

Well, I guess it's fair game.  They bash everyone else here. 

Rolling with the punches is just part of the game I suppose.

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« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2005, 01:06:20 PM »

I get back and the Antiochian Bashing continues.  Why am I not surprised.     

I'm not in the business of Antiochian bashing... I don't agree with the adoption of the Western Rite, but I've got my opinion and my reasons... The Hierarchs and people of the Antiochian Archdiocese are free to do what they will within their liturgical tradition.
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« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2005, 01:41:48 PM »

It appears that this discussion has gone far afield from a convert discussion and its original topic so I am closing this down at this point and recommend that this discussion be taken up in one of the other board perhaps Faith, Liturgical, or Free-for-All where it can be allowed to take its flight and debate the issues more directly.  For those who have started the discussion thankyou. I look forward to reading more on the one of the other boards.

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