Author Topic: MP breaks communion!  (Read 7621 times)

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Offline StanislavU

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2018, 12:00:14 PM »
There's no one from my parish there either.  Whoa!
Imagine that!

Still, that was a weird post. I stated that all in my parish support the EP's decision. Ialmisry replied "not all" and attached a picture of Met. Onufry. Whoa?

It's not at all clear he's not in agreement with EP though. They did find his signature on that old letter to MP requesting Autocephaly - that he denied for years. So you never know. If it's not clear, I'm kidding. Although I saw people seriously debating the possibility of UOC-MP hierarchs crashing Filaret's party, electing Onufry a new Patriarch - so he can get Tomos from EP. It's theoretically possible, they all have an an open invitation.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2018, 12:02:31 PM »
The EP had been saying that the UOC-KP leaders left the MP schismatically, and now this October it restored them to their ranks. Did new facts came to light to show that years ago the UOC-KP leaders did not leave the MP schismatically in the EP's eyes?

The EP is saying that it revokes its decision to give Kiev to the MP. Where does that leave half of the Orthodox, the ones who hadn't been in schism and are under the MP because they didn't leave schismatically? Does the EP expect them to give up the MP and go under hierarchs who left the canonical church schismatically?
Theoretically, they're in funny canonical position now - encroaching on what now is EP's territory.


“to  grant  .  .  . Kyiv in trust(ἐπιτροπικῶς) to  the  Moscovite due to  the prevailing tyranny,  until  the day comes for divine reckoning”
Is early October 2018 the day "for divine reckoning"?

Does the EP want to bring on the Apocalypse?


« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 12:02:46 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline WPM

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2018, 12:16:32 PM »
Why

both of those Orthodox Churches are already autocephalous and independent
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Offline Wandile

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2018, 12:58:59 PM »
That Pope stuff us Catholics have been going on about is starting to look better and better each day  :laugh:

Jokes aside... I think this was coming. Another issue if not this one would have set it off. These two churches have been fighting each other for a while now and the tension was very evident. I guess the EP had enough of Moscow and vice-versa. To me, as an outsider, Moscow seemed always more politically motivated in its actions than true genuine religious concern.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 01:00:37 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

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Offline Alpo

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2018, 01:06:42 PM »
"Union of Orthodox Journalists" has a seemingly convenient list of views from different local churches:

http://spzh.news/en/zashhita-very/54524-chto-dumajut-pomestnyje-pravoslavnyje-cerkvi-ob-ukrainskoj-avtokefalii#

Does anyone know the site's background? Is it a Russian site?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Online Gorazd

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2018, 01:15:14 PM »
Although will the EP retaliate and not let people from the OCA receive communion in GoArch parishes?

Afaik, no. From all I have heard, the EP hasn't broken communion with anyone. They have taken decisions Moscow disagrees with, but they do not want to break communion. Moscow made a one-sided break of communion, and the EP has not retaliated.

Unless the EP makes a declaration to the contrary, parishioners of the MP, including OCA and ROCOR, are still welcome to receive communion at EP churches.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2018, 01:20:07 PM »
"Union of Orthodox Journalists" has a seemingly convenient list of views from different local churches:

http://spzh.news/en/zashhita-very/54524-chto-dumajut-pomestnyje-pravoslavnyje-cerkvi-ob-ukrainskoj-avtokefalii#

Does anyone know the site's background? Is it a Russian site?
It's apparently a Russian site because of the Russian translation option at the bottom of the page. But its summary looks accurate based on what I've read elsewhere. What I read elsewhere and on that page that is especially interesting to me is the position of the Georgian Patriarch: 10 years ago his own country was involved in a war with Russia, and yet even he is supporting the UOC-MP and against the EP's decision to recognize the schismated hierarchs of the KP:

Quote
However, according to the Greek media outlet Romfea, one of the metropolitans of the Georgian Patriarchate, on condition of anonymity, reported that Patriarch Ilia II expressed deep dissatisfaction with the Ukrainian issue: "His Beatitude does not agree with the initiatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate on Ukraine and accepts as legitimate exclusively the Church under the leadership of Metropolitan Onufry," said the Georgian hierarch.

Contrary to the position of the Patriarch and the Holy Synod, Metropolitan Peter (Tsaava) supported the granting of autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. In his statements to the Georgian media he justified his opinion by the fact that 40 million people in the country should have their independent Church. Yet it should be emphasized the above said is just his private opinion.

Here is more on the position of that Georgian hierarch, Metropolitan Peter (Tsaava) of Chkondidi:
Quote
While the Synod itself declined to take an official stance, preferring to wait until the Ecumenical Patriarchate officially proclaims a clear stance on the issue, Pat. Ilia, the most loved and trusted man in Georgia, expressed his own view, stating his displeasure with the intervention of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Ukrainian issue, reports Romfea.

One hierarch of the Georgian Church, Metropolitan Peter (Tsaava) of Chkondidi, has spoken out in favor of the Ukrainian autocephaly, arguing that 40 million Ukrainian faithful deserve their own Church. “My view is that Ukraine should have an independent Church, although the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate has a reasonable position,” the metropolitan stated.
http://orthochristian.com/113962.html
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Online Gorazd

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2018, 01:29:32 PM »
What I read elsewhere and on that page that is especially interesting to me is the position of the Georgian Patriarch: 10 years ago his own country was involved in a war with Russia, and yet even he is supporting the UOC-MP and against the EP's decision

Is there any public statement of Patriarch Ilia? As I understand, there is not, and it seems wise from him - I always considered him a wise man - to stay out of the issue. What would he gain from getting involved?

Offline RobS

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2018, 01:43:48 PM »
The EP needs to repent.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2018, 01:48:51 PM »
That Pope stuff us Catholics have been going on about is starting to look better and better each day  :laugh:

Jokes aside...

Do let us know when Card. McCarrick is laicized, Abp. Viganò can come out of hiding, Card.
Coccopalmerio is investigated for participating in drug-fueled homosexual orgies with Pope Francis’ knowledge, etc. 

Offline RobS

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2018, 01:53:18 PM »
That Pope stuff us Catholics have been going on about is starting to look better and better each day  :laugh:

Jokes aside...

Do let us know when Card. McCarrick is laicized, Abp. Viganò can come out of hiding, Card.
Coccopalmerio is investigated for participating in drug-fueled homosexual orgies with Pope Francis’ knowledge, etc.
Lol
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2018, 02:24:37 PM »
Setting aside all theological and ecclesiological headaches, this schism is going to cause huge headaches even right now at a pastoral level in the diaspora.  Members of GoArch, the UOC-NA, and ACROD might find themselves unable to receive communion in ROCOR parishes and in the small number of Patriarchal parishes of the MP, and vice versa.  This is a problem in North America because in many small towns you only have one Orthodox church, and frequently its a Greek or ROCOR church.
What happened in regard to this pre-2007?

I honestly don't think there's much interaction between EP parishes and ROCOR. EP-OCA interaction is much more frequent, which is partly why I highly doubt OCA is going to break communion with anyone.

The main headache is if a convert who is a member of ROCOR moves to a town where the only Orthodox church is an EP parish.  Previously, until now, if it was a UOC parish it would have been pretty smooth for that convert, since, correct me if I’m wrong, the UOC-NA uses the Old Calendar and has a liturgical praxis almost identical to that of Russia, the main difference being “Hospodi pomuli” instead of “Gospodi pomuli” et cetera (and also slightly diffefent phelonions, slightly higher cut, than the Athonite type used by the Russians).  if it was a Greek or ACROD parish it might have been a bit jarring at first, but still, better than driving two hours or not having an Orthodox church.  I was under the impression you yourself were ACROD, and I have always respected ACROD’s excellent performance in terms of Sunday attendance.

So this entire scenario is deeply depressing.  I do have skin in the game since I have been going to a ROCOR parish for over a year, due to the nearest Syriac parish being out of convenient range.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2018, 02:28:57 PM »
In other words, MP is either delusional or lying.

Can you prove that either way?
There is no objective person who'd still deny the existence of a separate Ukrainian nation. That includes most of the so-called Russophone Ukrainians (count me in that number). "Common nation" is a purely propagandistic nonsense.

I agree, but I would also argue that Russia, Ukraine and Belarus historically enjoyed a deeply symbiotic relationship; they go together like bread, peanut butter and jelly.  Or, one might argue, like England, Scotland and Wales.  Thus the current rupture between them is extremely sad, and we should pray for a movement to heal this rupture through loving-kindness.
I would argue there's no such thing as "deeply symbiotic relation", not without healthy mutual respect. In Ukraine, the greatest loving-kindness we wish from our siblings would be to stop supplying military hardware, armaments, training, and "vacationing" soldiers to thuggish proxies who keep killing us on a weekly basis. And maybe don't force us stay in a Church that preaches that we don't exist almost as doctrine, pretty please with a cherry on top?

My point is that historically, a symbiotic relationship existed, to the mutual benefit of both countries; needless to say at present this relationship has been severely disrupted or obliterated.  It depresses me to consider Russia has better relations and more symbiosis with most of the former SSRs of Central Asia than it does with Ukraine.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2018, 02:31:41 PM »
The main headache is...
There is also a curious potential annoyance where clergy who got defrocked or excommunicated from the canonical churches (eg. OCA, GOARCH, ROCOR) in the "Diaspora" and went to the KP's Diaspora churches are now put in communion.

Quote
The Ecumenical Patriarchate calls for the merge of three 'schismatic' churches in Ukraine, something that will also affect Sydney's St Savvas – and relations with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia

The newly established St Savvas church, now part of Ukraine’s ‘schismatic’ church, will get official recognition by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, under the new tomos, which will put the Greek-Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia under pressure.
...
The parish of St Savvas of Kalymnos in Sydney, established only a few years ago, claims to be under the jurisdiction of the schismatic Kiev Patriarchate. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia does not recognise the church of St Savvas, as its parish priest was defrocked by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2001. If, however, in the coming months an autocephalous church is declared in Ukraine recognised by Constantinople (which the Archdiocese answers to) and absorbing the Kiev Patriarchate, then St Savvas in Sydney will technically have the right to consider itself canonical and on equal footing with the churches of Australia’s other recognised Orthodox jurisdictions, including the Greek Archdiocese. This is something that without doubt will create a major problem for the Archdiocese, for it cannot recognise the existence of a canonical Greek-speaking parish in Australia not under its spiritual authority.
https://neoskosmos.com/en/121816/moscow-and-constantinople-clash-over-ukrainian-autocephaly/
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 02:35:24 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2018, 02:40:22 PM »
The main headache is...
There is also a curious potential annoyance where clergy who got defrocked or excommunicated from the canonical churches (eg. OCA, GOARCH, ROCOR) in the "Diaspora" and went to the KP's Diaspora churches are now put in communion.



particularly odd since the EP actually recognized their anathema back then...and is thus 'lifting the anathema' of another....

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Offline Wandile

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2018, 02:41:27 PM »
That Pope stuff us Catholics  ???have been going on about is starting to look better and better each day  :laugh:

Jokes aside...

Do let us know when Card. McCarrick is laicized, Abp. Viganò can come out of hiding, Card.
Coccopalmerio is investigated for participating in drug-fueled homosexual orgies with Pope Francis’ knowledge, etc.

Evidently someone can’t take a joke  ???

You know funnily enough once I saw your name I already knew it was me you were replying to.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 02:42:39 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
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Offline StanislavU

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2018, 03:35:15 PM »
My point is that historically, a symbiotic relationship existed, to the mutual benefit of both countries; needless to say at present this relationship has been severely disrupted or obliterated.  It depresses me to consider Russia has better relations and more symbiosis with most of the former SSRs of Central Asia than it does with Ukraine.
I have close family members in Russia, FWIW.
If we're talking "historically", one can produce a long list of historical grievances, going back to just a few years after Treaty of Pereyaslav. Russia has a habit of breaking its commitments the earliest chance it gets, especially if these are commitments to "weaker" partners. Why would one call relations between a harsh Imperial power and its dependency (which it actively tried to absorb completely, eliminating all differences) "symbiosis" I wouldn't know.

In any case, all the history is moot now, because the two countries are in a state of a "hybrid" war; war that one its peak featured biggest tank battles in Europe since WWII. I would think that even Russia can muster better relations and more "symbiosis" with countries it does not currently actively attack. The only way forward to heal relationship now would be complete ceasing of any attempts at "symbiosis" before trust is restored (that would include Ukraine becoming strong and reasonably corruption-free, enough to being able to protect itself against Russian advances). It's like V. I. Lenin said: "before we can unite, we first must complete separation" (can't translate better, don't know source - sorry).

And oh, step zero: Moscow should immediately free Oleg Sentsov and other Ukrainian political prisoners it holds in its kangaroo "court" system - before Oleg or anyone else dies in captivity. Since Putin doesn't know how to back down, this won't happen - and the list of historical grievances will continue to grow.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 03:44:13 PM by StanislavU »

Offline StanislavU

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #107 on: October 16, 2018, 03:40:12 PM »
There is also a curious potential annoyance where clergy who got defrocked or excommunicated from the canonical churches (eg. OCA, GOARCH, ROCOR) in the "Diaspora" and went to the KP's Diaspora churches are now put in communion.

Yep, this is a legit concern. AFAIK similar situations exist between UOC-KP and Ukrainian dioceses under Constantinople. In fact, the whole "UOC-KP Vicariate in USA and Canada" is along the same lines.
Oh well, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. It's a relatively small, technical problem. I've witnessed similar inter-jurisdictional frictions between (at that point, both canonical) OCA and ROCOR - for vast majority of people, this doesn't matter.

Offline StanislavU

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #108 on: October 16, 2018, 03:43:17 PM »
What I read elsewhere and on that page that is especially interesting to me is the position of the Georgian Patriarch: 10 years ago his own country was involved in a war with Russia, and yet even he is supporting the UOC-MP and against the EP's decision

Is there any public statement of Patriarch Ilia? As I understand, there is not, and it seems wise from him - I always considered him a wise man - to stay out of the issue. What would he gain from getting involved?
can't find a quote now, but they "expressed their concern" and recommended "Patriarchates of Moscow and Constantinople to decide it between themselves". So yep, they are in no hurry to break communion with anyone. As will be most of the Churches. And this is how it's supposed to be, breaking Communion is for cases of herecy, not a blackmail technique like MP uses it .

Offline Iconodule

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #109 on: October 16, 2018, 03:49:22 PM »
Breaking communion with someone who you think is intruding on your territory is standard historic practice in the Church. Or do you think Patriarch Bartholomew was blackmailing Athens when he broke communion with them in 2004?
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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #110 on: October 16, 2018, 03:51:15 PM »
Breaking communion with someone who you think is intruding on your territory is standard historic practice in the Church. Or do you think Patriarch Bartholomew was blackmailing Athens when he broke communion with them in 2004?

It's ok when the EP does it.  It is the fountain of the Church, the Shepherd of all, the beginning and end.
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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2018, 03:54:42 PM »
Breaking communion with someone who you think is intruding on your territory is standard historic practice in the Church. Or do you think Patriarch Bartholomew was blackmailing Athens when he broke communion with them in 2004?

It's ok when the EP does it.  It is the fountain of the Church, the Shepherd of all, the beginning and end.


Able to remove anathemas singlehandedly.....

its super!
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Offline adecarion

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2018, 05:03:34 PM »

My point is that historically, a symbiotic relationship existed, to the mutual benefit of both countries; needless to say at present this relationship has been severely disrupted or obliterated.

Reading your posts, StanislavU, it is clear that this personal for you. Obviously the political aggression on the part of Russia has made this whole topic a sore spot. I think as an American who is entirely new to Orthodoxy, I have absolutely zero skin in the game so to speak. So, it is hard to judge your view point. In my very humble, neophyte view of things, this controversy is ostensibly about Church canon law and the role of the EP as first among equals and a whole bunch of other things that make it seem pretty obvious who is on the right side of all this. But it seems that this controversy is more about Ukranian national autonomy, war, and politics for you and many Ukranians. Its kind of like, "who cares about history we have been treated badly." Kind of like when you are in an argument with your wife and you may be factually right, but since you have approached the situation badly, it doesn't really matter, and the conversation goes no where.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:04:10 PM by adecarion »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2018, 05:32:22 PM »
And oh, step zero: Moscow should immediately free Oleg Sentsov and other Ukrainian political prisoners it holds in its kangaroo "court" system - before Oleg or anyone else dies in captivity. Since Putin doesn't know how to back down, this won't happen - and the list of historical grievances will continue to grow.
So your step zero to Church affairs is to deal with ethno-nationalistic conflicts and politics? This better goes in the Politics section, but is a good revelation of what this is all about. It reminds me of Greeks who say they are Greek first and Orthodox second. How many of those rejecting the canonical UOC-MP in favor of the UOC-KP would consider themselves Ukrainians first and Orthodox second?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:35:29 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2018, 07:24:01 PM »
The Antiochians made a statement on October 6. Here is a link to the Arabic:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1395245937245782&id=292018570901863

Here is an English translation:
Quote
“The fathers examined the general Orthodox situation. They stressed that the Church of Antioch expresses her deep worries about the attempts to change the boundaries of the Orthodox Churches through a new reading of history. She considers that resorting to a unilateral reading of history does not serve Orthodox unity. It rather contributes to the fueling of the dissensions and quarrels within the one Church. Thus, the Church of Antioch refuses the principle of establishing parallel jurisdictions within the canonical boundaries of the Patriarchates and the autocephalous Churches as a way to solve conflicts, or as a de facto situation in the Orthodox world.

“The fathers of the Church of Antioch underline that any approach for granting the autocephaly of a certain Church has to be in accordance with the Orthodox ecclesiology and the principles agreed upon by the Churches in a conciliar way in the past years. These principles for granting autocephaly are about the necessity to obtain the agreement of the Mother Church and the acknowledgement of all the Orthodox autocephalous Churches. The Church of Antioch affirms the necessity to resort to the principle of unanimity concerning the common Orthodox work and the stand on controversial issues in the Orthodox world, and this unanimity is a true safeguard for Orthodox Unity.
...
The Church of Antioch calls upon His All-Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch to call for an urgent synaxis for the primates of the Orthodox autocephalous Churches in order to discuss the current developments that the Orthodox world is facing about the issue of granting autocephaly to new Churches, and the efforts made to find common solutions before taking any final decisions about this issue.
SOURCE: http://orthochristian.com/116275.html
Doesn't make a difference, if the Ukrainians decided to allen with the EU instead of Russia.  They fall under The EP by default.  Even if the historical aspect doesn't bode well for you. The actually is what it is.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2018, 07:59:30 PM »
Tzimis,

How important is it to you that the EP follow the correct Orthodox canonical rules and procedures?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline juliogb

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2018, 08:19:40 PM »
So, if a country wants to join EU the EP must be the patriarch???

And even if the ukrainians want that, there is no assurance they will be accepted.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2018, 08:21:55 PM »
Tzimis,

How important is it to you that the EP follow the correct Orthodox canonical rules and procedures?
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules.  Not the other way around. When pope Leo III took it upon himself to force Charlemagne into ecclesiastical leadership.  He divided the empire. 
This is no different.  The MP is aligning with Putin. So the agenda is to hold onto a lost territory.  That territory doesn't want to be a part of greater Russia any more. They are aligning with the EU.
The timing of this also coincides with the ecclesiastical.  Even it the EP didnt site history.  The territory falls into the EP jurisdiction. This is clear cut. Not like the situation in the USA.

Offline Arzelle

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #118 on: October 16, 2018, 08:28:56 PM »
This move is quite simple, and consistent with what Moscow always does. Which is this: it works to deny communion with Orthodox Church to political enemies of both Church of Moscow and the Russian state (including when the state was run by godless Bolsheviks). They did this in plain sight to their own, namely ROCOR, for decades - and stopped when, and no earlier, the state stopped considering anti-Communist diaspora "enemy". Now they attempt to do this to people they perceive as enemies: Ukrainians who do not support an imperialistic concept of the "Russian World" which Part. Kirill was pushing on behalf of the Kremlin. Also, to some people who do not wish to be in administrative unity with Church that blesses weapons for the aggressor military. As simple as that. Except in this case, they can harm the Church, but can't keep people out of communion anymore. It's not about Filaret.

+1

Offline rakovsky

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2018, 09:06:33 PM »
Tzimis,

How important is it to you that the EP follow the correct Orthodox canonical rules and procedures?
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. Not the other way around.

So you are saying that the "political class" should and must control the decisions of the Ecumenical Patriarch today?
Is this what the Ecumenical Patriarch or your own church teach as church doctrine on ecclesiology?

The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2018, 09:12:02 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2018, 09:18:12 PM »
Tzimis,

How important is it to you that the EP follow the correct Orthodox canonical rules and procedures?
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. Not the other way around.

So you are saying that the "political class" should and must control the decisions of the Ecumenical Patriarch today?
Is this what the Ecumenical Patriarch or your own church teach as church doctrine on ecclesiology?

Sure. In the absence of a roman emperor.  The peoples constitution takes presidents.  The EU is a political establishment no different than an autocrat.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #122 on: October 16, 2018, 09:19:32 PM »
Tzimis,

How important is it to you that the EP follow the correct Orthodox canonical rules and procedures?
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. Not the other way around.

So you are saying that the "political class" should and must control the decisions of the Ecumenical Patriarch today?
Is this what the Ecumenical Patriarch or your own church teach as church doctrine on ecclesiology?

Sure. In the absence of a roman emperor.  The peoples constitution takes presidents.  The EU is a political establishment no different than an autocrat.
Is this something that your church is openly teaching as doctrine on ecclesiology? Where are they saying this? In Sunday sermons? On the Greek Archdiocese website?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 09:20:21 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #123 on: October 16, 2018, 09:25:01 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #124 on: October 16, 2018, 09:26:29 PM »
Tzimis,

How important is it to you that the EP follow the correct Orthodox canonical rules and procedures?
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. Not the other way around.

So you are saying that the "political class" should and must control the decisions of the Ecumenical Patriarch today?
Is this what the Ecumenical Patriarch or your own church teach as church doctrine on ecclesiology?

Sure. In the absence of a roman emperor.  The peoples constitution takes presidents.  The EU is a political establishment no different than an autocrat.
Is this something that your church is openly teaching as doctrine on ecclesiology? Where are they saying this? In Sunday sermons? On the Greek Archdiocese website?
It has to do with really. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #125 on: October 16, 2018, 09:26:38 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #126 on: October 16, 2018, 09:33:13 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.
You live in the united states right? Do you Pledge your Allegiance to a flag or a dictator?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #127 on: October 16, 2018, 09:45:42 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.
You live in the united states right? Do you Pledge your Allegiance to a flag or a dictator?

The United States is not a Muslim nation.  Turkey is.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #128 on: October 16, 2018, 09:47:25 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.
You live in the united states right? Do you Pledge your Allegiance to a flag or a dictator?

The United States is not a Muslim nation.  Turkey is.
There are no muslim citizens of the united states?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #129 on: October 16, 2018, 09:50:14 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.
You live in the united states right? Do you Pledge your Allegiance to a flag or a dictator?

The United States is not a Muslim nation.  Turkey is.
There are no muslim citizens of the united states?

You’re still not denying that the EP is Muslim.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #130 on: October 16, 2018, 09:51:03 PM »
No different.  You even said it yourself.  Rome was a political movement. 

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #131 on: October 16, 2018, 09:55:48 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.
You live in the united states right? Do you Pledge your Allegiance to a flag or a dictator?

The United States is not a Muslim nation.  Turkey is.
There are no muslim citizens of the united states?

You’re still not denying that the EP is Muslim.
Is this a joke? The seat managed to exist through centuries of political turmoil.  That in itsself is a Miracle.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #132 on: October 16, 2018, 09:56:57 PM »
Lay off the hash pipe every now and then Tzimis.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #133 on: October 16, 2018, 09:57:21 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.
You live in the united states right? Do you Pledge your Allegiance to a flag or a dictator?

The United States is not a Muslim nation.  Turkey is.
There are no muslim citizens of the united states?

You’re still not denying that the EP is Muslim.
Is this a joke? The seat managed to exist through centuries of political turmoil.  That in itsself is a Miracle.

Allah be praised, right?

Offline Tzimis

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Re: MP breaks communion!
« Reply #134 on: October 16, 2018, 10:02:54 PM »
The EP is subject to the political class. Who defines the rules. 

So he’s a Muslim.  Good to know.
Turkey is just under a decade or two away from being a full member of the EU. Its an inevitable fruition.

Allahu akbar.
You live in the united states right? Do you Pledge your Allegiance to a flag or a dictator?

The United States is not a Muslim nation.  Turkey is.
There are no muslim citizens of the united states?

You’re still not denying that the EP is Muslim.
Is this a joke? The seat managed to exist through centuries of political turmoil.  That in itsself is a Miracle.

Allah be praised, right?
He is still here right. You can attribute that to your master if you like.