Author Topic: Phanar Embraces Schism  (Read 6395 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Phanar Embraces Schism
« on: October 11, 2018, 01:12:14 PM »
Quote
Presided by His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Holy and Sacred Synod convened for its regular session from October 9 to 11, 2018, in order to examine and discuss items on its agenda....decreed...3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

4) To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople.
https://www.patriarchate.org/-/communiq-1
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline augustin717

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 01:17:18 PM »
Quote
Presided by His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Holy and Sacred Synod convened for its regular session from October 9 to 11, 2018, in order to examine and discuss items on its agenda....decreed...3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

4) To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople.
https://www.patriarchate.org/-/communiq-1
schism is in the eye of the beholder :-)
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 01:19:29 PM »
Quote
Presided by His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Holy and Sacred Synod convened for its regular session from October 9 to 11, 2018, in order to examine and discuss items on its agenda....decreed...3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

4) To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople.
https://www.patriarchate.org/-/communiq-1
schism is in the eye of the beholder :-)
Yes, this One.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2018, 02:00:38 PM »
You speak for God?  Impressive.

I believe God would wish everyone be joined to One Church....everyone.

Christ wishes to save the sinner. 
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 02:01:59 PM »
You speak for God?  Impressive.

I believe God would wish everyone be joined to One Church....everyone.

Christ wishes to save the sinner.
Embracing his sin saves no one.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 03:09:14 PM »
Pat. Irinej also expressed his own conviction at an event in Moscow in May: “Anyone who helps the Ukrainian schismatics is an enemy not only of the Russian Church and the Russian world, but also of all Orthodox Slavic nations and the entire Orthodox world.”

http://orthochristian.com/116409.html?fbclid=IwAR3YeOf-P6OLJa9u9L2gNcxfTb71bqpylRGbdznX4Cu8ucQytQpi60uaWQM

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 03:11:57 PM »
You speak for God?  Impressive.

I believe God would wish everyone be joined to One Church....everyone.

Christ wishes to save the sinner.
Embracing his sin saves no one.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” John 8:7 

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ... [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt.22 Verses 34 to 40

Luke 6:37-42
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 03:14:16 PM »
Pat. Irinej also expressed his own conviction at an event in Moscow in May: “Anyone who helps the Ukrainian schismatics is an enemy not only of the Russian Church and the Russian world, but also of all Orthodox Slavic nations and the entire Orthodox world.”

http://orthochristian.com/116409.html?fbclid=IwAR3YeOf-P6OLJa9u9L2gNcxfTb71bqpylRGbdznX4Cu8ucQytQpi60uaWQM
We won't be seeing concelebration breaking out, as we did with the signing of the Act of Canonical Communion.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 03:18:54 PM »
Pat. Irinej also expressed his own conviction at an event in Moscow in May: “Anyone who helps the Ukrainian schismatics is an enemy not only of the Russian Church and the Russian world, but also of all Orthodox Slavic nations and the entire Orthodox world.”

http://orthochristian.com/116409.html?fbclid=IwAR3YeOf-P6OLJa9u9L2gNcxfTb71bqpylRGbdznX4Cu8ucQytQpi60uaWQM
Goodness.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 03:39:37 PM »
The Romanian Patriarchate hasn’t said a word yet. Guess they are waiting for others to react first. Plus this comes at a moment when they’re surrounded by far more presssing internal issues.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 04:46:59 PM »
You speak for God?  Impressive.

I believe God would wish everyone be joined to One Church....everyone.

Christ wishes to save the sinner.
Embracing his sin saves no one.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” John 8:7 

Did you ran out of stones or did Russia ran out of space for more stones?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 05:00:41 PM »
Has this "lifting of anathemas" changed anyone's mind? As far as I am concerned they are still under anathema until I hear otherwise from the MP.

Offline adecarion

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 08:03:30 PM »
If I have this correct, the Russian church has been in Ukraine all along. When Ukraine became its own nation after the fall of communism in the early 1990's, a seperate Ukrainian church was founded by old hierarchs from the Russian church. This separate church has never been formally recognized by any Orthodox church. In recent months the EP has decided to make this new church the official church of Ukraine by formal recognition. The existing church in Ukraine, which is a branch of the Russian church, still is there. Now, we have two churches vying for power in Ukraine, one is recognized by everybody else as part of the Russian church, and the other is now being recognized by the EP. This will potentially cause all the churches to either recognized both as orthodox, or only the one they already do recognize, or they will reject the one that is there, and accept the new one.

Is this right? And why don't they all get together and talk about it? As if Christianity needs more confusion.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 09:03:17 PM »
If I have this correct, the Russian church has been in Ukraine all along. When Ukraine became its own nation after the fall of communism in the early 1990's, a seperate Ukrainian church was founded by old hierarchs from the Russian church. This separate church has never been formally recognized by any Orthodox church. In recent months the EP has decided to make this new church the official church of Ukraine by formal recognition. The existing church in Ukraine, which is a branch of the Russian church, still is there. Now, we have two churches vying for power in Ukraine, one is recognized by everybody else as part of the Russian church, and the other is now being recognized by the EP. This will potentially cause all the churches to either recognized both as orthodox, or only the one they already do recognize, or they will reject the one that is there, and accept the new one.

Is this right? And why don't they all get together and talk about it? As if Christianity needs more confusion.

Pats. Kirill and Bartholomew already did get together a month or two ago to discuss it. It didn't go anywhere, apparently.

Maybe if it went full worldwide synod like some bishops want, the results would be different. Can't say I'm holding my breath though, to be honest...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Luke

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 09:45:59 PM »
If I have this correct, the Russian church has been in Ukraine all along. When Ukraine became its own nation after the fall of communism in the early 1990's, a seperate Ukrainian church was founded by old hierarchs from the Russian church. This separate church has never been formally recognized by any Orthodox church. In recent months the EP has decided to make this new church the official church of Ukraine by formal recognition. The existing church in Ukraine, which is a branch of the Russian church, still is there. Now, we have two churches vying for power in Ukraine, one is recognized by everybody else as part of the Russian church, and the other is now being recognized by the EP. This will potentially cause all the churches to either recognized both as orthodox, or only the one they already do recognize, or they will reject the one that is there, and accept the new one.

Is this right? And why don't they all get together and talk about it? As if Christianity needs more confusion.

I believe there is also a third Orthodox Church, but I do not know when or how it came about.

Offline AntonI

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2018, 06:26:39 AM »
You get an Orthodox Church.

And you get an Orthodox Church.

Everyone get an Orthodox Church.
Some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2018, 07:23:37 AM »
You get an Orthodox Church.

And you get an Orthodox Church.

Everyone get an Orthodox Church.

 ;)

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2018, 08:05:55 AM »
Can someone clarify please: Do we have an official schism now? I.e. are the EP's laypeople banned from receiving the eucharist from the MP?

Offline Samn!

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2018, 08:11:04 AM »
Can someone clarify please: Do we have an official schism now? I.e. are the EP's laypeople banned from receiving the eucharist from the MP?

No. There has been no official response yet from any church regarding Constantinople's actions yesterday. The Holy Synod of Moscow will meet in Minsk on Monday to formulate their formal response. No one else is going to say much of anything until everyone knows what Moscow will do.

Offline AntonI

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2018, 08:45:27 AM »
I believe that Antioch is the only church to have agreed with the MP's call for a Grand Orthodox Meet-Up / Family Punch-up to discuss the Ukrainian Matter (I feel like I am channeling Cardinal Wolsey all of a sudden).

The Bulgarian Church has voted to kick the matter into the long grass and are busy cooking up some guyvetch. Three of the Metropolitans have come come against that decision (and they are parroting the arguments put forward by the MP.    I believe that they are the cheerleaders for the MP in the BOC).

I assume all the other sister churches are buffing their nails, catching up on Netflix and studiously praying that the whole thing gets swept under the carpet.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 08:50:19 AM by AntonI »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2018, 08:48:34 AM »
Can someone clarify please: Do we have an official schism now? I.e. are the EP's laypeople banned from receiving the eucharist from the MP?

No. There has been no official response yet from any church regarding Constantinople's actions yesterday. The Holy Synod of Moscow will meet in Minsk on Monday to formulate their formal response. No one else is going to say much of anything until everyone knows what Moscow will do.
Which, of course, is proper: it is Moscow (and Kiev-Met. Onufriy being ex officio a permanent member of the Holy Synod) who has been wronged first.

I expect the response to be robust. Ukraine is not Estonia or Moldova, and certainly not the "Diaspora."

Speaking of that, I would expect that the Phanar would demand that its new pseudo-bishops Filoret and Makary (given the muddled nature of the Phanariot decree, one does not know what titles they are even claiming now) give up their parishes outside of Ukraine. I wonder how that is going to go down. Having spoken to their followers here, I expect not well. Their myopia is what got us into this mess (along with Moscow's mishandling) in the first place.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2018, 08:49:54 AM »
I believe that Antioch is the only church to have agreed with the MP's call for a Grand Orthodox Meet-Up / Family Punch-up to discuss the Ukrainian Matter (I feel like I am channeling Cardinal Wolsey all of a sudden).

The Bulgarian Church has voted to kick the matter into the long grass but three of the Metropolitans have come come against that decision (and are parroting the arguments put forward by the MP).

I assume all the other sister churches are buffing their nails, catching up on Netflix and studiously praying that the whole thing gets swept under the carpet.
No, Poland is also on board for the Great and Holy Council, Part II.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline AntonI

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2018, 08:53:06 AM »
Quote
No, Poland is also on board for the Great and Holy Council, Part II.

Orthodox Great and Holy Council, Part II: Mad, Bad, Armed and Ready to Excommunicate with a Vengeance.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 08:53:35 AM by AntonI »
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2018, 10:28:03 AM »
Some interesting articles I have seen this morning:

UKRAINIAN CHURCH WON’T PARTICIPATE IN COUNCIL FOR UNIFICATION OF NON-CANONICAL CHURCHES

http://orthochristian.com/116447.html?fbclid=IwAR1fp6SPw9OJ6HNXe4DQC_Q7IFK16Ruz5iWdsjyU3dwGb23ZKBdDvfTNS_A

CONSTANTINOPLE, CONSTANTINOPLE! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
Priest Valery Dukhanin

http://orthochristian.com/116419.html?fbclid=IwAR0g22FvqvW2qStoZwuKInqECXhXSJzeDrc4UGDy8mEgx9nRVwJoO4PbHzM

“CONSTANTINOPLE’S SYNOD SHOCKED THE ENTIRE ORTHODOX WORLD”—UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH’S CHANCELLOR

http://orthochristian.com/116448.html?fbclid=IwAR0T19Y6ND5f5zQfYyjWkY_yfnbA8AFIwn8DalL2WKNsqYazE36ZHKQeE-o

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 12:16:09 PM »
Pat. Irinej also expressed his own conviction at an event in Moscow in May: “Anyone who helps the Ukrainian schismatics is an enemy not only of the Russian Church and the Russian world, but also of all Orthodox Slavic nations and the entire Orthodox world.”

http://orthochristian.com/116409.html?fbclid=IwAR3YeOf-P6OLJa9u9L2gNcxfTb71bqpylRGbdznX4Cu8ucQytQpi60uaWQM

So...are we concerned about the Orthodox Church as a whole....or the Ryskij Myr "Russian World"?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2018, 12:19:20 PM »


The older, "saintly" brother is being petulant, because his younger "sinful" brother has returned home to their Father.

It will pass....

...thank God, he has found his way home... and we should all rejoice.

"But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found."

— Luke 15:32
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2018, 12:28:48 PM »


The older, "saintly" brother is being petulant, because his younger "sinful" brother has returned home to their Father.

It will pass....

...thank God, he has found his way home... and we should all rejoice.

"But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found."

— Luke 15:32
Or has the alcoholic father returned and the younger brother, in blissful ignorance, has not realized what he has done by letting him in the door.

It will pass...they said that in 1054...
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2018, 01:20:13 PM »
Pat. Irinej also expressed his own conviction at an event in Moscow in May: “Anyone who helps the Ukrainian schismatics is an enemy not only of the Russian Church and the Russian world, but also of all Orthodox Slavic nations and the entire Orthodox world.

http://orthochristian.com/116409.html?fbclid=IwAR3YeOf-P6OLJa9u9L2gNcxfTb71bqpylRGbdznX4Cu8ucQytQpi60uaWQM

So...are we concerned about the Orthodox Church as a whole....or the Ryskij Myr "Russian World"?

I think it is clear.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2018, 01:43:50 PM »
“CONSTANTINOPLE’S SYNOD SHOCKED THE ENTIRE ORTHODOX WORLD”—UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH’S CHANCELLOR

http://orthochristian.com/116448.html?fbclid=IwAR0T19Y6ND5f5zQfYyjWkY_yfnbA8AFIwn8DalL2WKNsqYazE36ZHKQeE-o

Bishop of Boryspil? Great, that's where Ukraine's main airport is. Let him take a flight to Moscow then.

What, there are no more flights from Ukraine to Russia, you say? Well, the MP is going to meet up in Belarus anyway where they'll go officially schismatic. Flights to Minsk do exist, and whoever goes there rather than join the EP, may as well travel onwards to Moscow afterwards.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2018, 01:46:27 PM »
“CONSTANTINOPLE’S SYNOD SHOCKED THE ENTIRE ORTHODOX WORLD”—UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH’S CHANCELLOR

http://orthochristian.com/116448.html?fbclid=IwAR0T19Y6ND5f5zQfYyjWkY_yfnbA8AFIwn8DalL2WKNsqYazE36ZHKQeE-o

Bishop of Boryspil? Great, that's where Ukraine's main airport is. Let him take a flight to Moscow then.

What, there are no more flights from Ukraine to Russia, you say? Well, the MP is going to meet up in Belarus anyway where they'll go officially schismatic. Flights to Minsk do exist, and whoever goes there rather than join the EP, may as well travel onwards to Moscow afterwards.


Got that backwards. The canonical Church isn't going anywhere. If you want to take part in Istanbul's heresy and schism I am sure you could find a flight from somewhere. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Offline Luke

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2018, 02:17:40 PM »
So if the Church following Moscow goes one way, the Church following the Kiev Patriarch goes another way, which way does the third Autocephalous Church go?

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2018, 02:29:36 PM »


The older, "saintly" brother is being petulant, because his younger "sinful" brother has returned home to their Father.

It will pass....

...thank God, he has found his way home... and we should all rejoice.

"But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found."

— Luke 15:32

On this point, please forgive me, I do not wish to cause any offense or minimize the suffering experienced in the Ukraine, or cases of pastoral misconduct by Moscow.

However, it seems to me that the Church of Constantinople has been in general conducting itself very badly of late.  I would cite the proclamations of the Metropolitan of Burka (who allowed his own parish, which I believe was the last remnant of the historic diocese of Chalcedon, to be suppressed by the Turks, and thus became a titular bishop) that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is “first without equals,” the problems with the interference of the EP in the Czech and Slovak church, the abject failure of the Great and Holy Council in 2016, which was boycotted by several churches, and which failed to accomplish anything substantial or material (and also, in the months leading up to it, the theologically incorrect proclamations by several senior ecclesiastical figures that the EO church would be “bound” by its decisions, which is contrary to the historic principle that the church can reject councils the faithful deem to be latrocinia, such as the Arian councils of the fourth century, the cross rejection by what became the EO and OO of Ephesus II and Chalcedon, and, less controversally, and most importantly, the famous rejection by the EO of the Council of Florence, which was arguably negotiated under duress).  There is also the claim by deputies of the EP that he has the power to “rescind” the autocephaly of autocephalous churches.

Lastly, the EP has ignored several crises which in my opinion warrant its immediate attention, including the Jerusalem-Antioch schism, the financial crisis in GoArch, and other problems, such as the persecution of the traditionalist monks at Esphigmenou on Mount Athos, which in my opinion is a huge disgrace.

I could support the existence of an autocephalous Ukrainian church, but in my opinion, this is not the way to do it; also, I am not entirely sure that the Ukrainians will actually get such a church now, since it appears what Constantinople is actually seeking to do is what they did previously in Finland and later Estonia, which is simply to take churches that separated from the MP for reasons related in the former case to the war with the Soviets, and in the later case to nationalism, and have placed them under their omophorion.

Also I fear this approach will deepen the rift between the Russian and Ukrainian people, who in my opinion share a common cultural bond which has historically profited both countries.  The present division between the two and the causes of it are complex and a matter I would assume we should discuss only in Politics, but I would propose that the Ukraine and Russia have historically had a symbiotic relationship, and Kiev was the birthplace of Russian as well as Ukrainian culture.  The two countries seem to go with each other like Greek and Cyprus, or Sweden and Norway, or Spain and Portugal, or indeed, I would say, like Belarus and Russia, which also have a close cultural connection, or indeed like the Czech Republic and Slovakia.  Two independent countries that should ideally find a way to peacefully coexist in a loving manner wherein the cultural distinctions between them are mutually enriching.
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Offline cossack 316

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2018, 04:33:02 PM »
Even now, after Ukraine has had almost 27 years of independence and with hundreds of years of history behind it, Ukrainian history is often presented as Russian. Gogol, Volodymyr the Great, the Kyivan Rus, Anne of Kyiv, all of this is Ukrainian, but has long been skillfully and fraudulently presented as Russian. The history of Ukraine has been rewritten, changed, and interpreted for years to fit Russians’ own taste and order.

The more important, bigger questions are, why does Russia use Ukraine’s achievements and history as material for promoting its own culture?

With its military aggression in eastern Ukraine, Russia seeks to destroy everything Ukrainian, not only geographically but also morally and mentally. The creeping Russification, which has been ongoing for hundreds of years in Ukraine, has gone to a higher level, the depreciation of Ukrainians as a whole.

Russia also successfully uses the "transfer" technique, in which propaganda mixes things that people respect with what the government wants them to accept. For example, Prince Volodymyr the Great, who, according to Russian propaganda, was an "all-Russian prince" and "laid the foundation for the creation of a single Russian nation and in fact paved the way for the construction of a strong centralized Russian state." In early 2015, Moscow even installed a 25-meter monument to Volodymyr the Great. The fact that the Kyiv prince had nothing to do with Moscow is immaterial. Grandeur, pathos, and tales about historical heritage are far more important.

What can we conclude from these examples? Russia uses information flexibly. That is, its government and people will allow something Ukrainian to be viewed as Russian, but if someone claims that it belongs to Ukraine, Russia will not argue. After all, according to Russian propaganda, "We are fraternal peoples with a common past, present and future." Obviously, such a generalized approach to information is aimed at confusing and distracting.

Consequently, Ukraine, which is constantly defending itself, refutes the lie, and as a result is perceived more negatively. Why? Because propaganda cannot be overcome. Still, we Ukrainians should protect our history and culture to combat the false Russian propaganda. Russia has sown seeds in the information field liberally. It's time to check whether they are valid or not. If not, the answer is to communicate, advocate, and defend.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2018, 04:36:28 PM »
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2018, 04:38:36 PM »
It's also historical nonsense but that's par for the course with these Atlantic Council puff pieces.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2018, 04:38:54 PM »
Ukraine was first mentioned in the Hypatian Chronicle. Not Little Rus or something else, but Ukraine. Nobody heard about Moscow and Russia at that time. Lavrentian Chronicle, the Tale of Bygone Years, Chernihiv, Kyiv, Galician–Volhynian Chronicles which described the events from 860’s to 1292’s. Sources of the chronicles are diverse: Palatine chroniclers, palatine letters, ambassadors’ reports, military tales, stories of bystanders, the Greek chronicles and so on. Ukraine is mentioned for the first time in the Tale of Igor’s Campaign against Polovtsy in 1185.

Many sources identify Kyivan Rus with Ukraine. In some versions, such as Ermolaevsky list (1189-1213 years), Ukraine is called Krajina (country), in Kyiv chronicles – Galich Ukraina. Also, the name ‘Ukraine’ is mentioned in connection with the death of Pereyaslav Knyaz Volodymyr Glebovich, later in the description of events during Galician-Volyn Knyaz Danylo Romanovych regiment.

This historical data will help to clarify Ukraine and Russia backgrounds.

Higher education institutions: the Russian Academy of Sciences was founded in 1724, Moscow University in 1755. Ostroh Academy was founded in 1576 in Ukraine, the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy was established in 1615 and Lviv University in 1661.

First printed ABC book in Ukraine was published in 1574 in Lviv, and in the Tsardom of Russia it happened 60 years later in 1634.

Religion: Kyiv Metropolia was founded in the year 988, and Moscow Patriarchate only in 1458. Kyiv Metropolia is 460 years older than Moscow ones.

Capitals: Kyiv is one among the oldest cities in Europe and was founded in 482, while Moscow was founded in 1147 by Yuriy Dolgoruky, the son of Volodymyr Monomakh. So, Kyiv is older than Moscow by 665 years.

The first monarch who was crowned in the Tsardom of Russia was Ivan the Terrible in 1547, and in Ukrainian lands it was the first king of Rus’ Daniel of Galicia in 1253.

Mongol yoke: Kyiv lost the Mongolian yoke in 1363 after the Battle of Blue Waters; Moscow lost yoke in 1480 after great standoff on the Ugra river, and Muscovy paid tribute to the Crimean khan till 1700, including the first years of Peter the Great reign.
Name: For the first time, the term ‘Ukraine’ was found in the chronicles in the year 1187. Term ‘Russia’ was found only during the reign of Ivan the Terrible 400 years later.

Last, but not the least, famous Ukrainian Pylyp Orlyk is the author of one of the first constitutions in the world. On April 5th, 1710 he was elected as a hetman. On the same day he announced a ‘Pacts and Constitutions of Rights and Freedoms of the Zaporizhian Host’.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CH%5CY%5CHypatianChronicle.htm

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2018, 04:39:48 PM »
Cutting and pasting Atlantic Council articles, huh? http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-stolen-history-stolen-culture

Yeah? So what? This isn't a college term paper where I need to site sources

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2018, 04:41:15 PM »
Dishonesty is generally frowned upon, even outside of college term papers.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2018, 04:41:45 PM »


The older, "saintly" brother is being petulant, because his younger "sinful" brother has returned home to their Father.

It will pass....

...thank God, he has found his way home... and we should all rejoice.

"But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found."

— Luke 15:32

With all due respect, I think this parable is being misapplied to this situation.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2018, 04:44:35 PM »
It's also funny that Ukrainian nationalists are trying to claim Gogol, considering Gogol's staunch Tsarism. He routinely referred to Ukraine as "Little Russia."
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 04:45:52 PM by Iconodule »
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2018, 04:45:26 PM »
Cutting and pasting Atlantic Council articles, huh? http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-stolen-history-stolen-culture

Yeah? So what? This isn't a college term paper where I need to site sources

Quote
Quoting Other Articles, Websites, etc. -- When linking articles, news stories, etc., please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.

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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2018, 04:46:51 PM »
Even now, after Ukraine has had almost 27 years of independence and with hundreds of years of history behind it, Ukrainian history is often presented as Russian. Gogol, Volodymyr the Great, the Kyivan Rus, Anne of Kyiv, all of this is Ukrainian, but has long been skillfully and fraudulently presented as Russian. The history of Ukraine has been rewritten, changed, and interpreted for years to fit Russians’ own taste and order.

The more important, bigger questions are, why does Russia use Ukraine’s achievements and history as material for promoting its own culture?

With its military aggression in eastern Ukraine, Russia seeks to destroy everything Ukrainian, not only geographically but also morally and mentally. The creeping Russification, which has been ongoing for hundreds of years in Ukraine, has gone to a higher level, the depreciation of Ukrainians as a whole.

Russia also successfully uses the "transfer" technique, in which propaganda mixes things that people respect with what the government wants them to accept. For example, Prince Volodymyr the Great, who, according to Russian propaganda, was an "all-Russian prince" and "laid the foundation for the creation of a single Russian nation and in fact paved the way for the construction of a strong centralized Russian state." In early 2015, Moscow even installed a 25-meter monument to Volodymyr the Great. The fact that the Kyiv prince had nothing to do with Moscow is immaterial. Grandeur, pathos, and tales about historical heritage are far more important.

What can we conclude from these examples? Russia uses information flexibly. That is, its government and people will allow something Ukrainian to be viewed as Russian, but if someone claims that it belongs to Ukraine, Russia will not argue. After all, according to Russian propaganda, "We are fraternal peoples with a common past, present and future." Obviously, such a generalized approach to information is aimed at confusing and distracting.

Consequently, Ukraine, which is constantly defending itself, refutes the lie, and as a result is perceived more negatively. Why? Because propaganda cannot be overcome. Still, we Ukrainians should protect our history and culture to combat the false Russian propaganda. Russia has sown seeds in the information field liberally. It's time to check whether they are valid or not. If not, the answer is to communicate, advocate, and defend.

Copy pasting? Wow busted

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2018, 04:48:14 PM »
I suspect Cossack was well aware of the rule, which is why he not-so-skillfully altered some of the wording in his copy-paste.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2018, 04:48:50 PM »
Cutting and pasting Atlantic Council articles, huh? http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-stolen-history-stolen-culture

Yeah? So what? This isn't a college term paper where I need to site sources

Quote
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Go ahead and cite your sources within 48 hours, and in the future abide by these and all other forum rules, or be prepared to accept appropriate penalties.

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I lol irl and everyone stared at me. Thanks i needed that

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Phanar Embraces Schism
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2018, 04:52:06 PM »
Cutting and pasting Atlantic Council articles, huh? http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-stolen-history-stolen-culture

Yeah? So what? This isn't a college term paper where I need to site sources

Quote
Quoting Other Articles, Websites, etc. -- When linking articles, news stories, etc., please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.

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Go ahead and cite your sources within 48 hours, and in the future abide by these and all other forum rules, or be prepared to accept appropriate penalties.

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I lol irl and everyone stared at me. Thanks i needed that

I don’t moderate to entertain you.  I do it to keep people in line.  You might be next if you don’t check yourself.

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