Author Topic: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”  (Read 43825 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #360 on: October 31, 2018, 09:29:10 AM »
Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Oh Constantinople




That's Nobody's Business but the Turks'
The hell it is.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #361 on: October 31, 2018, 09:34:48 AM »
I think we should all just get out of the Rome business altogether.
Back to Jerusalem!
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #362 on: October 31, 2018, 09:38:24 AM »
so in the absence of an Imperium....

The stated basis of EP primacy is long defunct. Now, in my opinion, that doesn't mean we can just jettison the primacy or put it somewhere else, at least not without a careful church-wide deliberation. But when the Phanar polemicists throw around this mystical flimflam about the EP's primacy deriving from his very person, as some reflection of the monarchy of the Father or whatever- we should always point out where the primacy actually comes from, a 5th century geopolitical situation that bears no resemblance to our world now.
especially when the Phanariot polemicists are repeating the error of their Latin forebears, who clung in the 5th century to a 1st century geopolitical situation that bore no resemblance to their world then. After 5 centuries, the Orthodox said "enough!".
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #363 on: October 31, 2018, 09:39:04 AM »
What a load of crap. Nothing you said is accurate.
...said a person from a nonexistent jurisdiction.

Stay on the line, your input is very important for us.

...said a person that spreads lies and supports schism and heretics. My true affiliation is OCA.
Do they know you promote an imaginary schism on Internet forums? "Crimean Orthodox Church - MP" is a level of shamelessness that even MP won't tolerate.

Says the person belonging to the so-called "UOC of Canada".
 That is a level of shamelessness that even America won't tolerate. Canada doesn't even exist.

What does it mean "so-called"?  The UOC of Canada is a wonderful Church, with wise clergy and great faithful!  You should meet some of them and then judge for yourself.   I have met many just this year, and they've all been very nice....and belong to a legitimate Church.
not any more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #364 on: October 31, 2018, 10:20:51 AM »
To avoid this absurdity, one needs simply to re-affirm the basic Orthodox understanding that no church has the right to revoke any other church's autocephaly. What EP did to the Bulgarians was wrong; what the Church of Russia did to Georgia was also wrong. These canonical outrages should not be used to justify any current practice or ecclesiology.

Agreed.

Disagreed. We do not believe in an infallible pope, but the Church as a whole does not err.
Also, if it was wrong, does that mean there were no canonical churches in Bulgaria and Georgia during the time of their annexation to other hierarchies?
Russia kept it just this side of canonical by having Georgia as an exarchate in the "Most Holy Governing Synod." The Phanar was semi-canonical.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #365 on: October 31, 2018, 10:56:43 AM »

Says the person belonging to the so-called "UOC of Canada".
 That is a level of shamelessness that even America won't tolerate. Canada doesn't even exist.

Kindly keep any insulting remarks about my country (Canada) to yourself.

How do Canadians handle cold with such thin skin?

Bullfeathers.  Try saying "the United States doesn't even exist" on this forum and see how far you get.

The United States doesn't even exist.
It does.
The United States doesn't even exist.
The "United States of America" exists, but there is an argument that it never even achieved independence from Great Britain, but that it is a corporation of Great Britain and still needs to achieve real independence. Case in point: The first USA flag was actually the flag of the East Indies company and both had 13 stripes, red and white.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 11:01:03 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #366 on: October 31, 2018, 11:13:29 AM »

You are correct.  The Tomos will only be granted once the Unifying Sobor has been held, and only once everything is settled.  Only then will it be granted.

Mind you, everyone knew full well this topic was to be discussed in Crete...ergo the MP boycotted, because he did not wish to discuss it, just as they've refused to discuss it for the last 30 years.

So...NOW we should call a council to discuss?

....and believe it or not....if you take out all the fearmongers and social media armchair theologians....it really is not such a "HUGE MESS" as they would have you believe.

The Church has gone through far WORSE than accepting millions of faithful into the fold.

Relax everyone.


....and what's more...think of just how you are behaving towards all this?  These people are not heretics.  None of them.  They want what you have...which is to honor the Lord in the same Church you (most of you) worship in, adhering to the same dogmas and Holy Sacraments.

The world has not come to an end.

Have some patience, and trust in the Lord.  It will all be okay.
I was looking at your reactions here, when St/ Andrew entered schism
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21467.45.html
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 11:13:52 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #367 on: October 31, 2018, 11:27:42 AM »
Two new articles today apropos of this discussion:

Can Orthodoxy Exist without the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/31/can-orthodoxy-exist-without-ecumenical-patriarchate/


Primacy and Identity
A Response to ‘First Without Equals’ and the Tragedy of Deficient Ecclesiology
http://orthochristian.com/116859.html

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #368 on: October 31, 2018, 11:35:30 AM »
Can Orthodoxy Exist without the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/31/can-orthodoxy-exist-without-ecumenical-patriarchate/

A succinct rebuttal.

I wonder if the Phanar will ever issue a substantive explication of these assertions, and attempt to address the criticisms, or whether it will just continue to blurt them out in speeches and press releases.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #369 on: October 31, 2018, 12:28:18 PM »
Two new articles today apropos of this discussion:

Can Orthodoxy Exist without the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/31/can-orthodoxy-exist-without-ecumenical-patriarchate/
The answer is YES, because there were times when the Eastern Orthodox church that we have today in its historiography favors sides of schisms that went against the EP of Constantinople. The one that comes to mind because I discussed it recently is the Acacian Schism, when the EP made a union with some OOs that the EO church has come to disavowal. But there are other cases.

The OCA would be in a tough spot if it had to pick sides now. It doesn't like rejecting the EP, because the EP has such an important place in the Orthodox world, and because GOARCH, ACROD, and the US's "UOC(EP)" are under the EP and have good relations with us (the OCA).

Moreover, it has a harder time siding with the EP because of the harsh implications that the EP's position has for the OCA. The EP sees itself now apparently has the rightful jurisdiction for all lands outside of the medieval autocephalous churches (Moscow, Serbia, Rome, etc.) and claims the Americas (hence it created GOARCh, etc.). Further, the EP sees the OCA as only a branch of the Moscow Patriarchate and doesn't recognize our autocephaly.

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America because of the Russian settlement of Alaska and because of the Tomos that we got from Moscow. If relations are broken between us and Moscow, or the EP excommunicates Moscow, then according to the EP's stance against the OCA's autocephaly, we don't have a "leg to stand on", so to speak, when it comes to maintaining both (A) our autocephaly and (B) communion with the EP. And the EP is taking Pope-like Supremacy positions over the Orthodox world that would hurt our independence as a self-headed church as we know it.
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Offline Luke

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #370 on: October 31, 2018, 12:31:47 PM »
Is it possible to depose a patriarch?

Offline Samn!

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #371 on: October 31, 2018, 12:34:46 PM »
Is it possible to depose a patriarch?

Of course. In the history of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, about half of sitting patriarchs were deposed by their synods during the Ottoman period, sometimes multiple times. Ecumenical Councils have also deposed patriarchs, obviously. Then recently, the synaxis of the ancient patriarchates + Cyprus deposed the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 12:35:10 PM by Samn! »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #372 on: October 31, 2018, 12:35:10 PM »
Is it possible to depose a patriarch?

Yes. Most recently, Patriarch Irenaios of Jerusalem.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #373 on: October 31, 2018, 01:29:32 PM »
But there are more canons about Rome than about Georgia.

They apply to Constantinople now.

Anyway, if Rome wanted to become Orthodox again, surely there would be negotiations on the details.

This is a novel interpretation of the canons.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #374 on: October 31, 2018, 01:32:39 PM »

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America...

On paper, sure, but not necessarily in practice.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #375 on: October 31, 2018, 01:40:41 PM »

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America...

On paper, sure, but not necessarily in practice.

?
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #376 on: October 31, 2018, 01:44:10 PM »

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America...

On paper, sure, but not necessarily in practice.

?

I don’t think the OCA acts as if it believes it’s the “rightful, independent church in North America”.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #377 on: October 31, 2018, 01:49:22 PM »

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America...



On paper, sure, but not necessarily in practice.

?

I don’t think the OCA acts as if it believes it’s the “rightful, independent church in North America”.

Are you familiar with the conditions of the Tomos? I know you know a great deal but I don't want to assume you have read the tomos.
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #378 on: October 31, 2018, 01:52:39 PM »

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America...



On paper, sure, but not necessarily in practice.

?

I don’t think the OCA acts as if it believes it’s the “rightful, independent church in North America”.

Are you familiar with the conditions of the Tomos? I know you know a great deal but I don't want to assume you have read the tomos.

I read it in school, but that was quite a while ago, so I can’t say I wouldn’t want to read it again if that became important in this thread.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #379 on: October 31, 2018, 01:59:15 PM »

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America...



On paper, sure, but not necessarily in practice.

?

I don’t think the OCA acts as if it believes it’s the “rightful, independent church in North America”.

Are you familiar with the conditions of the Tomos? I know you know a great deal but I don't want to assume you have read the tomos.

I read it in school, but that was quite a while ago, so I can’t say I wouldn’t want to read it again if that became important in this thread.

I feel like that the OCA is trying to honor this portion:

The newly-established local Orthodox Autocephalous Church in America should abide in brotherly relations with all the Orthodox Churches and their Primates as well as with their bishops, clergy and pious flock, who are in America and who for the time being preserve their de facto existing canonical and jurisdictional dependence on their national Churches and their Primates.

I feel like Moscow and the RGCM agreed that this tomos would not be used against the other churches present to browbeat them into joining or to cause more division by arguing over whose canonical territory it was.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #380 on: October 31, 2018, 02:13:08 PM »

But the OCA on the other hand
sees itself as the rightful, independent church in North America...

On paper, sure, but not necessarily in practice.
If relations are broken between us and Moscow, or the EP excommunicates Moscow, then the autocephaly that you may see as only "on paper" becomes a critical factor in practice. Let me explain why:

The EP rejects the OCA's autocephaly, and considers us part of the Moscow Patriarchate. So if Moscow breaks relations with us (eg. for maintaining relations with the EP or for some other reason) and we are no longer under Moscow, then the EP will be forced to consider us schismatics from what he considers to be the head of our church.

If on the other hand, the EP excommunicates the MP, then by extension it will treat us as excommunicated too, because the EP considers us to be part of the MP.

Further, the EP's Pope-like Supremacy positions over the Orthodox world hurt our traditional independence from the EP whether we consider ourselves autocephalous or not.

But anyway, our autocephaly is not only "on paper"
or else we would have had to excommunicate the EP like ROCOR did.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:13:42 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #381 on: October 31, 2018, 02:34:00 PM »
It's not the autocephaly that's on paper- the OCA certainly behaves like it's independent of Moscow- but the "rightful church in North America" part. The OCA continues to show up at ACOB events and other functions and takes a seat as one among several churches, and not the most senior one at that. They do not, and do not wish to, badger the other bishops into joining them or going home.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #382 on: October 31, 2018, 03:00:14 PM »
And when Metropolitan Tikhon visited Istanbul, he was seated in order of seniority as a bishop of the EP, not as the primate of an autocephalous church.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #383 on: October 31, 2018, 03:11:23 PM »
It's not the autocephaly that's on paper- the OCA certainly behaves like it's independent of Moscow- but the "rightful church in North America" part. The OCA continues to show up at ACOB events and other functions and takes a seat as one among several churches, and not the most senior one at that. They do not, and do not wish to, badger the other bishops into joining them or going home.
Yes, and I accept the OCA's conduct in that regard.

By comparison, the Orthodox Churches believe that they are the true church, but when it comes to inter-Christian organizations like the WCC, the NCC (in the US), the Middle Eastern Council of Churches, Red Cross, Churches for Mideast Peace, YMCA, etc., the Orthodox Churches have a frequent practice of joining the organizations as one of several churches, next to the Lutherans, Anglicans, etc., even while there are instances of Orthodox Churches  and the Catholic Church refusing to join such organizations because they don't consider themselves "one among several churches."

Such equitable participation in my mind does not disprove that the church actually considers itself to be the rightful jurisdiction.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 03:14:52 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #384 on: October 31, 2018, 03:46:35 PM »
It's not the autocephaly that's on paper- the OCA certainly behaves like it's independent of Moscow- but the "rightful church in North America" part.
If the OCA believes and behaves like it is autocephalous and independent, then by extension it must believe that it is the rightful church of North America, since (A) under the canons there are not to be two overlapping dioceses, (B) the OCA's independent behavior conflicts with the EP's claim of jurisdiction under North America, and consequently (C) the OCA's independent behavior would conflict with its need to be part of a canonical church (like the Moscow Patriarchate) were there no rightful autocephalous church for the territory.

The OCA's "independent behavior" derives from its belief that the MP has had a rightful claim to North America due to the original Russian settlement and mission work in North America and that it was granted the status of the legitimate American church for this territory by the MP. In contrast, ACROD and GOARCH, and the Antiochians all derive their claims to canonicity from their continued relationship with the EP, and with the Patriarch of Antioch, respectively.

If the OCA did not consider itself to be the rightful church for this territory, how else could it act independently of Moscow and yet still believe that the EP and Antiochians should treat it as a canonical jurisdiction consistent with this independent behavior?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 03:51:33 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #385 on: October 31, 2018, 03:48:30 PM »
Has the OCA demanded the other jurisdictions commemorate Metropolitan Tikhon?
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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #386 on: October 31, 2018, 03:49:14 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #387 on: October 31, 2018, 03:53:43 PM »
I modified my last message.

Has the OCA demanded the other jurisdictions commemorate Metropolitan Tikhon?
Iconodule,
Do you believe that a church like the OCA, EP, or MP might not demand that its leading hierarch be commemorated by the other churches in North America (ACROD, GOARCH, OCA, MP) and yet still consider itself the rightful church in that territory?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 03:57:45 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #388 on: October 31, 2018, 03:56:23 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.
Justin Kolodziej:
Jurisdictional anarchy has reigned, but with the EP considering the OCA to be part of the Moscow Patriarchate and denying its status as an autocephalous church as Samn noted.
As a result, how would the EP treat the OCA if the EP were to excommunicate the MP?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #389 on: October 31, 2018, 03:57:31 PM »
If relations are broken between us and Moscow, or the EP excommunicates Moscow, then the autocephaly that you may see as only "on paper" becomes a critical factor in practice. Let me explain why:

The EP rejects the OCA's autocephaly, and considers us part of the Moscow Patriarchate. So if Moscow breaks relations with us (eg. for maintaining relations with the EP or for some other reason) and we are no longer under Moscow, then the EP will be forced to consider us schismatics from what he considers to be the head of our church.

If on the other hand, the EP excommunicates the MP, then by extension it will treat us as excommunicated too, because the EP considers us to be part of the MP.

It's a good thing that the EP "turned the other cheek" to the MP's breaking of communion. This means good relations between Goarch/Acrod/UOC-USA/UOC-Canada and OCA can continue. It also means Russian pilgrims are still welcome on Mount Athos.

I also believe that with the Ukrainian and North Macedonian situation evolving, the EP is becoming more open to the concept of an autocephalous church in North America (and maybe even in Western Europe, though they'd probably avoid having that one's main seat in Rome).

Still, of course, an autocephalous North American church recognised by the EP would need to consist of all North American Orthodox Christians, or at the very least of both the OCA and those currently under Constantinople. It just wouldn't make sense to recognise the OCA's autocephaly claim, while at the same time maintaining "patriarchal parishes" several times that size.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #390 on: October 31, 2018, 03:58:35 PM »
Has the OCA demanded the other jurisdictions commemorate Metropolitan Tikhon?

No, and nor should it. It envisions being a founding member of a unified and autocephalous church. A voluntary coming together of all the jurisdictions. However, now seeing what the quest for autocephaly has cost in Ukraine perhaps that is no longer as important as before.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #391 on: October 31, 2018, 04:00:45 PM »
If relations are broken between us and Moscow, or the EP excommunicates Moscow, then the autocephaly that you may see as only "on paper" becomes a critical factor in practice. Let me explain why:

The EP rejects the OCA's autocephaly, and considers us part of the Moscow Patriarchate. So if Moscow breaks relations with us (eg. for maintaining relations with the EP or for some other reason) and we are no longer under Moscow, then the EP will be forced to consider us schismatics from what he considers to be the head of our church.

If on the other hand, the EP excommunicates the MP, then by extension it will treat us as excommunicated too, because the EP considers us to be part of the MP.

It's a good thing that the EP "turned the other cheek" to the MP's breaking of communion. This means good relations between Goarch/Acrod/UOC-USA/UOC-Canada and OCA can continue. It also means Russian pilgrims are still welcome on Mount Athos.

I also believe that with the Ukrainian and North Macedonian situation evolving, the EP is becoming more open to the concept of an autocephalous church in North America (and maybe even in Western Europe, though they'd probably avoid having that one's main seat in Rome).

Still, of course, an autocephalous North American church recognised by the EP would need to consist of all North American Orthodox Christians, or at the very least of both the OCA and those currently under Constantinople. It just wouldn't make sense to recognise the OCA's autocephaly claim, while at the same time maintaining "patriarchal parishes" several times that size.


Only problem is that the EP doesn't have the authority to grant either autocephaly.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #392 on: October 31, 2018, 04:01:00 PM »
Still, of course, an autocephalous North American church recognised by the EP would need to consist of all North American Orthodox Christians, or at the very least of both the OCA and those currently under Constantinople.
Yes. That is a reason why the EP would cause a dilemma for itself and the OCA were the EP to excommunicate Moscow. Since the EP does not recognize the OCA's autocephaly, it would by extension be forced to treat the OCA as excommunicated too. But nor does the EP want to give North American Orthodox autocephaly. The EP derives major power from its diaspora flocks because its own flock is very small in Turkey.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 04:03:21 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #393 on: October 31, 2018, 04:01:45 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.
Justin Kolodziej:
Jurisdictional anarchy has reigned, but with the EP considering the OCA to be part of the Moscow Patriarchate and denying its status as an autocephalous church as Samn noted.
As a result, how would the EP treat the OCA if the EP were to excommunicate the MP?

Well, we are talking about practice. I'm sure some of the OCA bishops privately think it, but they're not going to insist on it to anyone else. I think Metropolitan Jonah tried that and it didn't turn out so well for him.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #394 on: October 31, 2018, 04:03:37 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.
Justin Kolodziej:
Jurisdictional anarchy has reigned, but with the EP considering the OCA to be part of the Moscow Patriarchate and denying its status as an autocephalous church as Samn noted.
As a result, how would the EP treat the OCA if the EP were to excommunicate the MP?

Well, we are talking about practice. I'm sure some of the OCA bishops privately think it, but they're not going to insist on it to anyone else. I think Metropolitan Jonah tried that and it didn't turn out so well for him.

Wasn't the Metropolia out of communion with the MP and in communion with the EP?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #395 on: October 31, 2018, 04:05:17 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.

I think we probably just have to accept that "diaspora" is a feature, not a bug of Orthodoxy here and old ideas of clear geographical boundaries are not always as relevant as they were in times before modern transportation.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #396 on: October 31, 2018, 04:06:17 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.
Justin Kolodziej:
Jurisdictional anarchy has reigned, but with the EP considering the OCA to be part of the Moscow Patriarchate and denying its status as an autocephalous church as Samn noted.
As a result, how would the EP treat the OCA if the EP were to excommunicate the MP?

Well, we are talking about practice. I'm sure some of the OCA bishops privately think it, but they're not going to insist on it to anyone else. I think Metropolitan Jonah tried that and it didn't turn out so well for him.

Wasn't the Metropolia out of communion with the MP and in communion with the EP?

Yeah, after they broke with ROCOR they were in a weird limbo where they were seeking communion with the MP but didn't get it for a couple decades.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #397 on: October 31, 2018, 04:09:01 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.
Justin Kolodziej:
Jurisdictional anarchy has reigned, but with the EP considering the OCA to be part of the Moscow Patriarchate and denying its status as an autocephalous church as Samn noted.
As a result, how would the EP treat the OCA if the EP were to excommunicate the MP?

Well, we are talking about practice. I'm sure some of the OCA bishops privately think it, but they're not going to insist on it to anyone else. I think Metropolitan Jonah tried that and it didn't turn out so well for him.

I also think it was the manner in which Metropolitan Jonah tried. Catching everyone including his synod unawares. Obviously, I think most members of the OCA are quite happy with our autocephaly and totally unfamiliar with the "Maximal Autonomy" idea he floated.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #398 on: October 31, 2018, 04:10:59 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.
Justin Kolodziej:
Jurisdictional anarchy has reigned, but with the EP considering the OCA to be part of the Moscow Patriarchate and denying its status as an autocephalous church as Samn noted.
As a result, how would the EP treat the OCA if the EP were to excommunicate the MP?

Well, we are talking about practice. I'm sure some of the OCA bishops privately think it, but they're not going to insist on it to anyone else. I think Metropolitan Jonah tried that and it didn't turn out so well for him.
Sure, Iconodule.

The point I am making is that the OCA's lack of insistence that other churches' North American parishes (eg. ACROD's and GOARCH's) don't commemorate its own hierarch does not disprove that the OCA considers itself to be or behaves as if it is the rightful church. The OCA's behavior independent of Moscow (eg. remaining in communion with the EP) and of any other autocephalous church matches behavior of the rightful church in the territory for reasons A,B, and C that I gave earlier. Meanwhile, the EP doesn't demand that the OCA commemorate the EP, even though he considers himself the rightful hierarch of North America and sets up jurisdictions here in accordance with his belief.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 04:11:14 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #399 on: October 31, 2018, 04:16:52 PM »
Wasn't the Metropolia out of communion with the MP and in communion with the EP?
Yes, but the Metropolia was never directly part of or under the EP.
The Metropolia's idea during the time that you are talking about was that it was part of the Russian church but that due to the Soviet government's conflict and treatment of the Church, the Metropolia was temporarily independent. It made the same kinds of claims that ROCOR did in this regard, but had better relations with the MP even when it was out of communion. For example in the 1950's the MP sent a hierarch to dialogue with the Metropolia at one of the latter's Sobors/ yearly assemblies.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 04:18:20 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #400 on: October 31, 2018, 04:25:28 PM »
Wasn't the Metropolia out of communion with the MP and in communion with the EP?
Yes, but the Metropolia was never directly part of or under the EP.
The Metropolia's idea during the time that you are talking about was that it was part of the Russian church but that due to the Soviet government's conflict and treatment of the Church, the Metropolia was temporarily independent. It made the same kinds of claims that ROCOR did in this regard, but had better relations with the MP even when it was out of communion. For example in the 1950's the MP sent a hierarch to dialogue with the Metropolia at one of the latter's Sobors/ yearly assemblies.

Thanks for the info.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #401 on: October 31, 2018, 04:52:11 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.

I think we probably just have to accept that "diaspora" is a feature, not a bug of Orthodoxy here and old ideas of clear geographical boundaries are not always as relevant as they were in times before modern transportation.
Unfortunately.
I suppose it's better than a schism over who gets to run lands that are still mostly barbarian lands (0.5% Orthodox or something?)

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #402 on: October 31, 2018, 04:58:22 PM »
LOL, jurisdictional anarchy has been the rule in North America for decades and probably will be for centuries.

I think we probably just have to accept that "diaspora" is a feature, not a bug of Orthodoxy here and old ideas of clear geographical boundaries are not always as relevant as they were in times before modern transportation.
Unfortunately.
I suppose it's better than a schism over who gets to run lands that are still mostly barbarian lands (0.5% Orthodox or something?)
Justin,

Do you actually think that the US, established by the British who were themselves a Roman province in Byzantine times, is a Byzantine-era "barbarian land"?

Even if one defines "barbarian" as "non-Orthodox", then how should one consider Alaska, which was settled and missionized successfully as a Russian colony?


And if Alaska is not a "barbarian land" in the eyes of the EP, what is it doing setting up parishes there?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 04:58:38 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #403 on: October 31, 2018, 05:19:28 PM »
And when Metropolitan Tikhon visited Istanbul, he was seated in order of seniority as a bishop of the EP, not as the primate of an autocephalous church.
of the EP or the MP?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Question of Ukrainian Tomos Postponed until “Right Time”
« Reply #404 on: October 31, 2018, 05:22:56 PM »
"Barbarian" here means speaking a language other than Greek, because "varvaros" in Greek originally just meant non-Greek speakers. This is why the EP could also claim jurisdiction over the Latin West once Rome had fallen into apostasy.

So, the former Byzantine Empire is canonically organised in the four ancient patriarchates plus Cyprus (and now the local Churches that have been granted autocephaly such as Greece, Romania and Georgia), and for the rest of the world, the EP has jurisdiction, unless he gives autocephaly to a local church or acknowledges another local church's jurisdiction, usually due to missionary activity (MP in Siberia, Alexandria in Subsaharan Africa, Jerusalem in Qatar).