Author Topic: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?  (Read 9866 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,607
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2018, 12:45:07 PM »
So, he's excommunicated himself?
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
  • don't even go there!
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2018, 12:50:20 PM »
So, he's excommunicated himself?

Who did the what now?  ???
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2018, 02:15:06 PM »
sidestepping what? your idea that Traditional Catholics are late to the party? that Francis de Sales never thought there would be an heretical pope? just for the record my position is we can never have an heretical pope...that's the point..he ceases to be pope , deposed by God himself...so no..sorry Vatican 1 was no scam..the East were wrong all along
If you can never have an heretical Pope, then Vatican II was valid. If Vatican II was error, then you are accusing the Pope(s) or promulgating error. I never said traditional Catholics were late to the party (please show me the quote where I said that.) I said the sedevacantist movement was late to the party. Your movement is trying to convince the world there have been 6 successive anti-popes elected by the very see that determines who the pope is.
No Vatican 2 is invalid, the pope wasn't a true pope, the seat was vacant

Or the RCC's teaching on the papacy is essentially a lot of hot air — no need to twist yourself into knots if you can admit the Pope of Rome can be a heretic and yet the Church continues on.
the RCC teaching on the papacy is biblical, I have debated it here many times and there's no contest, you guys are in the wrong,  I always end up  getting  banned debating that issue
 the teaching is a true pope can not be a heretic, with heresy he is deposed by God ipso facto

F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal (1943):
“Through notorious and openly revealed heresy, the Roman Pontiff, should he fall into
heresy, by that very fact is deemed to be deprived of the power of jurisdiction even
before any declaratory judgment of the Church…”

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
  • don't even go there!
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2018, 02:21:52 PM »
the RCC teaching on the papacy is biblical, I have debated it here many times and there's no contest, you guys are in the wrong,  I always end up  getting  banned debating that issue

I doubt you're getting banned for simply debating the issue. More likely for not responding to questions people ask you, repeatedly, *about* the issue.
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2018, 02:25:38 PM »
the RCC teaching on the papacy is biblical, I have debated it here many times and there's no contest, you guys are in the wrong,  I always end up  getting  banned debating that issue

I doubt you're getting banned for simply debating the issue. More likely for not responding to questions people ask you, repeatedly, *about* the issue.
I answer all questions, saints are not infallible...I think you asked this in the other thread , what are you trying to imply by that question?  or are you still in a temper tantrum state of mind

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2018, 06:53:49 PM »
you don't know what you are talking about, sedevacantists are Catholic, pure and simple ..it is a position one is forced to take during this crisis...either you believe we have a pope who is heretical and we simply resist him , or you think he's a true pope and follow and obey him ( clueless) ...or you take the sedevacantist position...

Ok, what's the crisis? Explain it to me.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,469
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2018, 07:36:56 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2018, 07:53:03 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.
Not always true. I know quite a few Greeks who are skilled isolationists.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2018, 10:48:04 PM »
you don't know what you are talking about, sedevacantists are Catholic, pure and simple ..it is a position one is forced to take during this crisis...either you believe we have a pope who is heretical and we simply resist him , or you think he's a true pope and follow and obey him ( clueless) ...or you take the sedevacantist position...

Ok, what's the crisis? Explain it to me.

We have enemies of Christ in the Holy Place.
 
Our Lady of La Salette, Sept. 19, 1846: “Rome will lose the Faith and
become the seat of the Anti-Christ... the Church will be in eclipse.”


Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel is prophetic. Composed over 100
years ago, and then suppressed, Pope Leo XIII’s original Prayer to St. Michael is a
very interesting and controversial prayer relating to the present situation in which the
true Catholic Church finds itself. On September 25, 1888, following his morning
Mass, Pope Leo XIII became traumatized to the point that he collapsed. Those in
attendance thought that he was dead. After coming to consciousness, the pope
described a frightful conversation that he had heard coming from near the tabernacle.
The conversation consisted of two voices – voices which Pope Leo XIII clearly
understood to be the voices of Jesus Christ and the Devil. The Devil boasted that he
could destroy the Church, if he were granted 75 years to carry out his plan (or 100years, according to some accounts). The Devil also asked permission for “a greater
influence over those who will give themselves to my service.” To the Devil’s requests,
Our Lord reportedly replied: “you will be given the time and the power.”
Shaken deeply by what he had heard, Pope Leo XIII composed the following Prayer
to St. Michael (which is also a prophecy) and ordered it to be recited after all Low
Masses as a protection for the Church against the attacks from Hell. What follows is
the prayer (note especially the bolded portions), followed by some of our comments.
The prayer was taken from The Raccolta, 1930, Benziger Bros., pp. 314-
315. The Raccolta is an imprimatured collection of the official and indulgenced
prayers of the Catholic Church.
The Prayer:
"O Glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, be our
defense in the terrible warfare which we carry on against principalities and
Powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, spirits of evil. Come to
the aid of man, whom God created immortal, made in his own image and
likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil.
"Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as
already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his
apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them
any longer in Heaven.
"That cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan, who
seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels. Behold, this
primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an
angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits,
invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of his Christ, to
seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of
eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the
venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of
lying, of impiety, of blasphemy, and the pestilent breath of impurity, and of
every vice and iniquity.
"These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall
and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb,
and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In
the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most
holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they
have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with theiniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep
may be scattered.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,886
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2018, 11:55:05 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,607
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #100 on: November 21, 2018, 12:05:51 AM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

Stop it.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #101 on: November 21, 2018, 01:11:13 AM »
We have enemies of Christ in the Holy Place. ... Our Lady of La Salette, Sept. 19, 1846: “Rome will lose the Faith ...", "Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel is prophetic ..."  "the pope described a frightful conversation that he had heard coming from near the tabernacle of Jesus Christ and the Devil..." "The Raccolta, 1930, Benziger Bros.,"

Oh knick it off Sedevacantist. These are all very esoteric events you're trying to point to. I know none of these are the main reasons why someone is a sedevacantist, including you. So I am going to ask you again, what is the current crisis? Please explain it to me.

Esoteric and obscure quotes from various points talking about "church persecution" do nothing to back the cause of the sedevacantist. I want to hear your words of what the current crisis is.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 01:12:52 AM by noahzarc1 »
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #102 on: November 21, 2018, 05:26:50 PM »
We have enemies of Christ in the Holy Place. ... Our Lady of La Salette, Sept. 19, 1846: “Rome will lose the Faith ...", "Pope Leo XIII’s Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel is prophetic ..."  "the pope described a frightful conversation that he had heard coming from near the tabernacle of Jesus Christ and the Devil..." "The Raccolta, 1930, Benziger Bros.,"

Oh knick it off Sedevacantist. These are all very esoteric events you're trying to point to. I know none of these are the main reasons why someone is a sedevacantist, including you. So I am going to ask you again, what is the current crisis? Please explain it to me.

Esoteric and obscure quotes from various points talking about "church persecution" do nothing to back the cause of the sedevacantist. I want to hear your words of what the current crisis is.
I thought I was quite clear..there are non catholics who have taken over Catholic places of worship, they have changed the Catholic mass to a protestant one thereby making it difficult for a Catholic to attend a Catholic mass....

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #103 on: November 21, 2018, 05:37:11 PM »
I thought I was quite clear..there are non catholics who have taken over Catholic places of worship, they have changed the Catholic mass to a protestant one thereby making it difficult for a Catholic to attend a Catholic mass....
If the Pope approved these changes, and he is the only one with authority to do so, then the changes were legitimate and you have numerous Catholics on this site alone who say this mass you speak of is valid and licit. So it is not difficult to attend a Catholic mass because there are Catholic Churches all over the U.S. who serve not only the new mass but also the Latin Mass.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,469
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #104 on: November 21, 2018, 06:12:12 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
No. They understand people make mistakes and are willing to put up with them until they cool off.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,469
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2018, 06:13:14 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

Stop it.
Stop what? I know them better than they know themselves.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,886
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #106 on: November 21, 2018, 06:28:03 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
No. They understand people make mistakes and are willing to put up with them until they cool off.

So you would invite me to dinner and plan to stab me in the back.  Makes sense.  Greek food is good.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,636
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2018, 06:58:55 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
No. They understand people make mistakes and are willing to put up with them until they cool off.

So you would invite me to dinner and plan to stab me in the back.  Makes sense.  Greek food is good.

The gyro meat is actually made of minced xenoi.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,886
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2018, 07:31:40 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
No. They understand people make mistakes and are willing to put up with them until they cool off.

So you would invite me to dinner and plan to stab me in the back.  Makes sense.  Greek food is good.

The gyro meat is actually made of minced xenoi.

Mmmmmm.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,469
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2018, 10:22:49 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
No. They understand people make mistakes and are willing to put up with them until they cool off.

So you would invite me to dinner and plan to stab me in the back.  Makes sense.  Greek food is good.

The gyro meat is actually made of minced xenoi.

Mmmmmm.
It tastes better knowing where it came from.

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,599
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2018, 10:41:46 PM »
Who, within the Church structure, has the authority to determine that a Pope is heretical? And is that authority infallible?
No one has any authority over the pope:

Quote from: Dictatus papae, PP Gregory VII
He himself may be judged by no one.

Quote from: Lumen Gentium §22, Vatican II
The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff.
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,886
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2018, 10:44:49 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
No. They understand people make mistakes and are willing to put up with them until they cool off.

So you would invite me to dinner and plan to stab me in the back.  Makes sense.  Greek food is good.

The gyro meat is actually made of minced xenoi.

Mmmmmm.
It tastes better knowing where it came from.

Especially from a (former) friend.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,469
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2018, 10:51:16 PM »
The difference between Italians and Greek. Italians will conspire against you and isolate you into oblivion.  Greek will conspire against you and still call you there friend.

So Greeks are two-faced.
No. They understand people make mistakes and are willing to put up with them until they cool off.

So you would invite me to dinner and plan to stab me in the back.  Makes sense.  Greek food is good.

The gyro meat is actually made of minced xenoi.

Mmmmmm.
It tastes better knowing where it came from.

Especially from a (former) friend.
Hannibal Lecter style.  Yummy!

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,469
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2018, 10:59:34 PM »
And thats why we fast. We have to be humanae . At least during fast. Lol

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #114 on: November 23, 2018, 02:07:26 AM »
I thought I was quite clear..there are non catholics who have taken over Catholic places of worship, they have changed the Catholic mass to a protestant one thereby making it difficult for a Catholic to attend a Catholic mass....
If the Pope approved these changes, and he is the only one with authority to do so, then the changes were legitimate and you have numerous Catholics on this site alone who say this mass you speak of is valid and licit. So it is not difficult to attend a Catholic mass because there are Catholic Churches all over the U.S. who serve not only the new mass but also the Latin Mass.
The so called pope who approved was a freemason anti carholic so no, not legitimate.  I know there are modernisr catholics who believe the new mass is valid...they are wrong just as they are wrong if they think bergolio is a true catholic pope

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,607
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #115 on: November 23, 2018, 11:57:49 AM »
Those Freemasons sure are popular.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2018, 09:02:56 PM »
I thought I was quite clear..there are non catholics who have taken over Catholic places of worship, they have changed the Catholic mass to a protestant one thereby making it difficult for a Catholic to attend a Catholic mass....
If the Pope approved these changes, and he is the only one with authority to do so, then the changes were legitimate and you have numerous Catholics on this site alone who say this mass you speak of is valid and licit. So it is not difficult to attend a Catholic mass because there are Catholic Churches all over the U.S. who serve not only the new mass but also the Latin Mass.
The so called pope who approved was a freemason anti carholic so no, not legitimate.  I know there are modernisr catholics who believe the new mass is valid...they are wrong just as they are wrong if they think bergolio is a true catholic pope
I feel for you. I do not agree with you, but I will say in my opinion, sedevacantists are the most honest of all Catholics in this day in age. This does not make the movement correct, but at least they're the most honest about the state of the church and her refusal to follow her tradition. But here is the point, since Vatican II there have now been 6 Popes. Save for one who served 1 month and the current reigning Pope, here is the state of the new, post-modern/modernist Rome:

Pope John XXIII - Now St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI - Now St. Paul VI
Pope John Paul - deceased 1 month in to papacy
Pope Jonn Paul II - Now St. Pope John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI - Resigned the papacy
Pope Francis - Current

Rome has declared what has come out of Vatican II is worthy of Sainthood. It won't be getting overturned anytime soon.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,607
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2018, 09:23:14 PM »
Modernist?

The hell you say.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10415a.htm

https://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/MODERSM.TXT

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/what_you_need_to_know/index.cfm?id=78


But three sites won't be enough to convince him he's wrong.

Nothing will convince him he's wrong.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,599
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2018, 10:14:46 PM »
Pope John XXIII - Now St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI - Now St. Paul VI
Pope John Paul - deceased 1 month in to papacy Now Ven. John Paul I
Pope Jonn Paul II - Now St. John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI - Resigned the papacy
Pope Francis - Current
There, FIFY.

Then again:
Quote from: Dictatus papae §23
The Roman Pontiff... is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter.
Why not call all popes saint, since PP Gregory VII taught this matter of faith infallibly?
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline Briven

  • Pray for me, please! Baseball loving Old Believer.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 747
  • Господи Ісусе Христе Сыне Божїй помилѹй мѧ!
    • Pustozersk
  • Faith: Old Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2018, 10:44:55 PM »
Pope John XXIII - Now St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI - Now St. Paul VI
Pope John Paul - deceased 1 month in to papacy Now Ven. John Paul I
Pope Jonn Paul II - Now St. John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI - Resigned the papacy
Pope Francis - Current
There, FIFY.

Then again:
Quote from: Dictatus papae §23
The Roman Pontiff... is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter.
Why not call all popes saint, since PP Gregory VII taught this matter of faith infallibly?

Infallibility is only a thing when I agree with the statement.
“God,”
The words rumbled:
“There is much suffering,
But the church is alive. "

 “How long, Archpriest, are we to suffer thus?” I answered: “Until our very death, Markovna!” And she replied, with a sigh: “So be it, Petrovich, let us plod on.” - Life of Avvakum by Himself

Nastasya, Nastasya, be
patient and do not cry:
Not every happiness
Comes in the clothing of fortune.

St. Avvakum, pray for us!

St. Ambrose, pray for us!

My blog: http://pustozersk.blogspot.com

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #120 on: November 24, 2018, 12:28:27 AM »
Pope John XXIII - Now St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI - Now St. Paul VI
Pope John Paul - deceased 1 month in to papacy Now Ven. John Paul I
Pope Jonn Paul II - Now St. John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI - Resigned the papacy
Pope Francis - Current
There, FIFY.

The declaration on John Paul I appears to have happened after I left the church. I was unaware, thanks for the correction.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #121 on: November 24, 2018, 01:09:17 AM »
I thought I was quite clear..there are non catholics who have taken over Catholic places of worship, they have changed the Catholic mass to a protestant one thereby making it difficult for a Catholic to attend a Catholic mass....
If the Pope approved these changes, and he is the only one with authority to do so, then the changes were legitimate and you have numerous Catholics on this site alone who say this mass you speak of is valid and licit. So it is not difficult to attend a Catholic mass because there are Catholic Churches all over the U.S. who serve not only the new mass but also the Latin Mass.
The so called pope who approved was a freemason anti carholic so no, not legitimate.  I know there are modernisr catholics who believe the new mass is valid...they are wrong just as they are wrong if they think bergolio is a true catholic pope
I feel for you. I do not agree with you, but I will say in my opinion, sedevacantists are the most honest of all Catholics in this day in age. This does not make the movement correct, but at least they're the most honest about the state of the church and her refusal to follow her tradition. But here is the point, since Vatican II there have now been 6 Popes. Save for one who served 1 month and the current reigning Pope, here is the state of the new, post-modern/modernist Rome:

Pope John XXIII - Now St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI - Now St. Paul VI
Pope John Paul - deceased 1 month in to papacy
Pope Jonn Paul II - Now St. Pope John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI - Resigned the papacy
Pope Francis - Current

Rome has declared what has come out of Vatican II is worthy of Sainthood. It won't be getting overturned anytime soon.
I don't know if it's  a movement...

How appropriately did the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on the occasion of his Suspension a divinis by Paul VI write the following reflection on June 29, 1976:

    “That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive.

    “This Conciliar Church is schismatic, because it has taken as a basis for its updating, principles opposed to those of the Catholic Church, such as the new concept of the Mass expressed in numbers 5 of the Preface to (the decree) Missale Romanum and 7 of its first chapter, which gives the assembly a priestly role that it cannot exercise; such likewise as the natural — which is to say divine — right of every person and of every group of persons to religious freedom.

    “This right to religious freedom is blasphemous, for it attributes to God purposes that destroy His Majesty, His Glory, His Kingship. This right implies freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, and all the Masonic freedoms.

    “The Church that affirms such errors is at once schismatic and heretical. This Conciliar Church is, therefore, not Catholic. To whatever extent Pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.”

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #122 on: November 24, 2018, 01:11:53 AM »
Perhaps Pope Leo XIII has the answer in his Motu Proprio of September 25, 1888, when he wrote in his invocation to St. Michael:

    “These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.”

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Technical Team
  • Protokentarchos
  • *
  • Posts: 5,157
  • OCNet Systems and Network Operations
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #123 on: November 24, 2018, 04:32:39 AM »
I thought I was quite clear..there are non catholics who have taken over Catholic places of worship, they have changed the Catholic mass to a protestant one thereby making it difficult for a Catholic to attend a Catholic mass....
If the Pope approved these changes, and he is the only one with authority to do so, then the changes were legitimate and you have numerous Catholics on this site alone who say this mass you speak of is valid and licit. So it is not difficult to attend a Catholic mass because there are Catholic Churches all over the U.S. who serve not only the new mass but also the Latin Mass.
The so called pope who approved was a freemason anti carholic so no, not legitimate.  I know there are modernisr catholics who believe the new mass is valid...they are wrong just as they are wrong if they think bergolio is a true catholic pope
I feel for you. I do not agree with you, but I will say in my opinion, sedevacantists are the most honest of all Catholics in this day in age. This does not make the movement correct, but at least they're the most honest about the state of the church and her refusal to follow her tradition. But here is the point, since Vatican II there have now been 6 Popes. Save for one who served 1 month and the current reigning Pope, here is the state of the new, post-modern/modernist Rome:

Pope John XXIII - Now St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI - Now St. Paul VI
Pope John Paul - deceased 1 month in to papacy
Pope Jonn Paul II - Now St. Pope John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI - Resigned the papacy
Pope Francis - Current

Rome has declared what has come out of Vatican II is worthy of Sainthood. It won't be getting overturned anytime soon.
I don't know if it's  a movement...

How appropriately did the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on the occasion of his Suspension a divinis by Paul VI write the following reflection on June 29, 1976:

    “That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive.

    “This Conciliar Church is schismatic, because it has taken as a basis for its updating, principles opposed to those of the Catholic Church, such as the new concept of the Mass expressed in numbers 5 of the Preface to (the decree) Missale Romanum and 7 of its first chapter, which gives the assembly a priestly role that it cannot exercise; such likewise as the natural — which is to say divine — right of every person and of every group of persons to religious freedom.

    “This right to religious freedom is blasphemous, for it attributes to God purposes that destroy His Majesty, His Glory, His Kingship. This right implies freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, and all the Masonic freedoms.

    “The Church that affirms such errors is at once schismatic and heretical. This Conciliar Church is, therefore, not Catholic. To whatever extent Pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.”

Freedoms without which Marcel LeFebvre could have been burned at the stake in an auto da fe

It should be stressed these freedoms did not exist in the Soviet union.  Therefore I much prefer living in a society that upholds the so-called “Masonic Freedoms” than one that does not.  Indeed if you could prove to me these freedoms were both definitively the doctrine and solely the result of the efforts of Freemasonry I would probably be inclined to join them.  As it happens I am rather disinclined to give them that much credit, although it is the case that several founding fathers of the US were Freemasons and Masonic ideology influenced aspects of the original design of Washington DC (but so did Baroque and Neoclassical architecture and the accidents of Ancient Rome, and in any event the plans were changed repeatedly and the capitol was almost completely rebuilt, with outward expansions which hide from view almost the entire original structure).

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #124 on: November 24, 2018, 08:14:51 AM »
I thought I was quite clear..there are non catholics who have taken over Catholic places of worship, they have changed the Catholic mass to a protestant one thereby making it difficult for a Catholic to attend a Catholic mass....
If the Pope approved these changes, and he is the only one with authority to do so, then the changes were legitimate and you have numerous Catholics on this site alone who say this mass you speak of is valid and licit. So it is not difficult to attend a Catholic mass because there are Catholic Churches all over the U.S. who serve not only the new mass but also the Latin Mass.
The so called pope who approved was a freemason anti carholic so no, not legitimate.  I know there are modernisr catholics who believe the new mass is valid...they are wrong just as they are wrong if they think bergolio is a true catholic pope
I feel for you. I do not agree with you, but I will say in my opinion, sedevacantists are the most honest of all Catholics in this day in age. This does not make the movement correct, but at least they're the most honest about the state of the church and her refusal to follow her tradition. But here is the point, since Vatican II there have now been 6 Popes. Save for one who served 1 month and the current reigning Pope, here is the state of the new, post-modern/modernist Rome:

Pope John XXIII - Now St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI - Now St. Paul VI
Pope John Paul - deceased 1 month in to papacy
Pope Jonn Paul II - Now St. Pope John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI - Resigned the papacy
Pope Francis - Current

Rome has declared what has come out of Vatican II is worthy of Sainthood. It won't be getting overturned anytime soon.
I don't know if it's  a movement...

How appropriately did the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on the occasion of his Suspension a divinis by Paul VI write the following reflection on June 29, 1976:

    “That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive.

    “This Conciliar Church is schismatic, because it has taken as a basis for its updating, principles opposed to those of the Catholic Church, such as the new concept of the Mass expressed in numbers 5 of the Preface to (the decree) Missale Romanum and 7 of its first chapter, which gives the assembly a priestly role that it cannot exercise; such likewise as the natural — which is to say divine — right of every person and of every group of persons to religious freedom.

    “This right to religious freedom is blasphemous, for it attributes to God purposes that destroy His Majesty, His Glory, His Kingship. This right implies freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, and all the Masonic freedoms.

    “The Church that affirms such errors is at once schismatic and heretical. This Conciliar Church is, therefore, not Catholic. To whatever extent Pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.”

Freedoms without which Marcel LeFebvre could have been burned at the stake in an auto da fe

It should be stressed these freedoms did not exist in the Soviet union.  Therefore I much prefer living in a society that upholds the so-called “Masonic Freedoms” than one that does not.  Indeed if you could prove to me these freedoms were both definitively the doctrine and solely the result of the efforts of Freemasonry I would probably be inclined to join them.  As it happens I am rather disinclined to give them that much credit, although it is the case that several founding fathers of the US were Freemasons and Masonic ideology influenced aspects of the original design of Washington DC (but so did Baroque and Neoclassical architecture and the accidents of Ancient Rome, and in any event the plans were changed repeatedly and the capitol was almost completely rebuilt, with outward expansions which hide from view almost the entire original structure).
explain your burnt at the stake,   you are aware of the Arian crisis?

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #125 on: November 24, 2018, 08:17:30 AM »
Modernist?

The hell you say.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10415a.htm

https://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/MODERSM.TXT

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/what_you_need_to_know/index.cfm?id=78


But three sites won't be enough to convince him he's wrong.

Nothing will convince him he's wrong.
3 sites? woww... I am impressed....I might have to rethink my position as I wasn't aware that there were 3 whole websites proving me wrong ...I think comedy is more your forte, you're wasting your skills on a website like this

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 597
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #126 on: November 24, 2018, 12:26:49 PM »
I don't know if it's  a movement...

How appropriately did the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre on the occasion of his Suspension a divinis by Paul VI write the following reflection on June 29, 1976:

    “That the Conciliar Church is a schismatic Church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church that has always been. It has its new dogmas, its new priesthood, its new institutions, its new worship, all already condemned by the Church in many a document, official and definitive.

    “This Conciliar Church is schismatic, because it has taken as a basis for its updating, principles opposed to those of the Catholic Church, such as the new concept of the Mass expressed in numbers 5 of the Preface to (the decree) Missale Romanum and 7 of its first chapter, which gives the assembly a priestly role that it cannot exercise; such likewise as the natural — which is to say divine — right of every person and of every group of persons to religious freedom.

    “This right to religious freedom is blasphemous, for it attributes to God purposes that destroy His Majesty, His Glory, His Kingship. This right implies freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, and all the Masonic freedoms.

    “The Church that affirms such errors is at once schismatic and heretical. This Conciliar Church is, therefore, not Catholic. To whatever extent Pope, bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new Church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.”

All the while calling the "Conciliar Church" heretical/schismatic/Masonic, Abp. Lefebvre continued to maintain that he was in communion with the very Roman authorities who introduced the changes. How perverse that one feels he must remain in communion with heretics!
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #127 on: November 24, 2018, 12:31:37 PM »
It should be stressed these freedoms did not exist in the Soviet union.  Therefore I much prefer living in a society that upholds the so-called “Masonic Freedoms” than one that does not.  Indeed if you could prove to me these freedoms were both definitively the doctrine and solely the result of the efforts of Freemasonry I would probably be inclined to join them.  As it happens I am rather disinclined to give them that much credit, although it is the case that several founding fathers of the US were Freemasons and Masonic ideology influenced aspects of the original design of Washington DC (but so did Baroque and Neoclassical architecture and the accidents of Ancient Rome, and in any event the plans were changed repeatedly and the capitol was almost completely rebuilt, with outward expansions which hide from view almost the entire original structure).
I might sound like a broken record for saying it, but will say it again, Vatican I is the huge stumbling block in the way of the traditionalist Catholic movement. I think I am following what you are saying, and I for one do not buy the masonic take over as what traditionalists and sedevacantists push. Did they infiltrate? Most likely. Did they usurp the entire see of Rome and, like with some arguments, force Siri not to take the papacy and force John XXIII to the throne instead? It just seems too conspiracy theory like. Also the whole Bella Dodd argument, who knows how true all of that is. Again I don't doubt it, but I don't think it was a movement able to usurp the entire church. If one looks at the writings of Cardinal Billot for example, and his words that even if there was an error in the election, from the moment the Pope is joined to the church and the people accept the papal election, it heals any errors in the electoral process.

Therefore, in my analysis, John XXIII was a true Pope that fulfilled the Sede Vacante after Pius XII passed away. Similarly Paul VI did the same after the death of John XXIII. I say all this because their papacies were accepted by the people. So whatever may have been the claimed error, the people accepted the elections and they were joined to the church as its head. But the Sedevacantists have the entire church, the laity, everyone under the sway of masonic, modernist principles, that they cannot possibly accept the elections (or know what they're doing.) I see it differently, but ultimately, with all things being equal and as they are today, without a Vatican I and its dogmas, the church would have a much easier time navigating this chaos. Instead, you have factions within the church who defend Vatican II, not because of Vatican II, but because of what the church has claimed about the papacy through history all the way up to Vatican I. Thus, it is why 3 of the last 5 Popes are Saints and one is now venerable. This is to keep the conciliar church as "orthodox" as the Catholic Church claims she's been all along.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #128 on: November 24, 2018, 12:46:44 PM »
All the while calling the "Conciliar Church" heretical/schismatic/Masonic, Abp. Lefebvre continued to maintain that he was in communion with the very Roman authorities who introduced the changes. How perverse that one feels he must remain in communion with heretics!
Also the Patron Saint of Sedevacantism, John Lane, approached the SSPX for the sacraments. It was well known he was associated with the Society of Saint Pius X.  He attended Mass at an SSPX chapel, and told others they can do the same in violation of Canon 1258 of the 1917 Code and the Council of Basle of 1435 that taught Catholics must not pray in communion with notorious heretics or schismatics.  I guess it could be said he shared in all the sins the SSPX commits by way of omission and association. As a devout sedevacantist, he was in direct communion with John Paul II because he prayed in communion with those who also were in communion with John Paul II. This association renders him, according to even sedevacantism, guilty of all their heresies and schismatic teachings and practices they condemn. So again, it is just another example of the contradictions and confusion in the sedevacantist movement (though Sedevacantist says its not a movement.)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 12:47:47 PM by noahzarc1 »
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,636
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #129 on: November 24, 2018, 02:01:33 PM »
All the while calling the "Conciliar Church" heretical/schismatic/Masonic, Abp. Lefebvre continued to maintain that he was in communion with the very Roman authorities who introduced the changes. How perverse that one feels he must remain in communion with heretics!

Perversions of spirit, perversions of body.
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline sedevacantist

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 701
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2018, 12:56:55 AM »
It should be stressed these freedoms did not exist in the Soviet union.  Therefore I much prefer living in a society that upholds the so-called “Masonic Freedoms” than one that does not.  Indeed if you could prove to me these freedoms were both definitively the doctrine and solely the result of the efforts of Freemasonry I would probably be inclined to join them.  As it happens I am rather disinclined to give them that much credit, although it is the case that several founding fathers of the US were Freemasons and Masonic ideology influenced aspects of the original design of Washington DC (but so did Baroque and Neoclassical architecture and the accidents of Ancient Rome, and in any event the plans were changed repeatedly and the capitol was almost completely rebuilt, with outward expansions which hide from view almost the entire original structure).
I might sound like a broken record for saying it, but will say it again, Vatican I is the huge stumbling block in the way of the traditionalist Catholic movement. I think I am following what you are saying, and I for one do not buy the masonic take over as what traditionalists and sedevacantists push. Did they infiltrate? Most likely. Did they usurp the entire see of Rome and, like with some arguments, force Siri not to take the papacy and force John XXIII to the throne instead? It just seems too conspiracy theory like. Also the whole Bella Dodd argument, who knows how true all of that is. Again I don't doubt it, but I don't think it was a movement able to usurp the entire church. If one looks at the writings of Cardinal Billot for example, and his words that even if there was an error in the election, from the moment the Pope is joined to the church and the people accept the papal election, it heals any errors in the electoral process.

Therefore, in my analysis, John XXIII was a true Pope that fulfilled the Sede Vacante after Pius XII passed away. Similarly Paul VI did the same after the death of John XXIII. I say all this because their papacies were accepted by the people. So whatever may have been the claimed error, the people accepted the elections and they were joined to the church as its head. But the Sedevacantists have the entire church, the laity, everyone under the sway of masonic, modernist principles, that they cannot possibly accept the elections (or know what they're doing.) I see it differently, but ultimately, with all things being equal and as they are today, without a Vatican I and its dogmas, the church would have a much easier time navigating this chaos. Instead, you have factions within the church who defend Vatican II, not because of Vatican II, but because of what the church has claimed about the papacy through history all the way up to Vatican I. Thus, it is why 3 of the last 5 Popes are Saints and one is now venerable. This is to keep the conciliar church as "orthodox" as the Catholic Church claims she's been all along.
If you do not buy the masonic takeover it's because you haven't studied the issue enough...Paul VI ..John 23 were masons, no one can dispute this after looking at the facts..your comment that it's all too conspiratorial seems to me you have a naive way of looking at the world...conspiracies are a matter of fact....it's  a bad world out there..people get together behind closed doors to conspire...Vatican 1 is catholic..the papacy is biblical...Vatican 2 anti catholic...it is what it is.... i 'll leave you with some relevant info from a book I have

Brother Joseph Natale, was present at one of Bella Dodd’s lectures in the early 1950’s.
He stated:
“ I listened to that woman for four hours and she had my hair standing on end.
Everything she said has been fulfilled to the letter. You would think she was
the world’s greatest prophet, but she was no prophet. She was merely exposing
the step-by-step battle plan of Communist subversion of the Catholic Church.
She explained that of all the world’s religions, the Catholic Church was the only
one feared by the Communists, for it was its only effective opponent.” 3
Bella Dodd converted to Catholicism at the end of her life. Speaking as an ex-
Communist, she said: “In the 1930’s, we put eleven hundred men into the
priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.” The idea was for
these men to be ordained, and then climb the ladder of influence and authority as
monsignors and bishops. Back then, she said: “Right now they are in the highest
places in the Church. They are working to bring about change in order that the
Catholic Church would not be effective against Communism.” She also said that these
changes would be so drastic that “you will not recognize the Catholic Church.” (This
was 10 to 12 years before Vatican II.)Brother Joseph went on relating what Bella Dodd had said: “The whole idea was
to destroy, not the institution of the Church, but rather the Faith of the
people, and even use the institution of the Church, if possible, to destroy
the Faith through the promotion of a pseudo-religion: something that
resembled Catholicism but was not the real thing. Once the Faith was destroyed, she
explained that there would be a guilt complex introduced into the Church... to label
the ‘Church of the past’ as being oppressive, authoritarian, full of predjudices,
arrogant in claiming to be the sole possessor of truth, and responsible for the
divisions of religious bodies throughout the centuries. This would be necessary in
order to shame Church leaders into an ‘openness to the world,’ and to a more flexible
attitude toward all religions and philosophies. The Communists would then exploit
this openness in order to undermine the Church.” 4
Freemasons made similar attempts to infiltrate the Catholic Church and
elevate their own to the highest levels. The Luciferian secret society, the Carbonari,
known as the Alta Vendita, wrote a set of Permanent Instructions, or Code of Rules,
which appeared in Italy in 1818. It stated:
“... It becomes the duty of the secret societies to make the first advance to the
Church, and to the pope, with the object of conquering both. The work for
which we gird ourselves is not the work of a day, nor of a month, nor a year. It
may last for many years, perhaps a century... What we must ask for, what
we should look for and wait for, as the Jews wait for the Messiah, is
a pope according to our wants. We require a pope for ourselves, if such a
pope were possible. With such a one we shall march more securely to the
storming of the Church, than with all the little books of our French and English
brothers.” 5
The same Freemasonic document made this striking prediction:
“ In a hundred years time... bishops and priests will think they are
marching behind the banner of the keys of Peter, when in fact they
will be following our flag... The reforms will have to be brought about in
the name of obedience.” 6
These organizations and the individuals who belong to them are agents which the
Devil uses to attack the true Church of Christ.
Ephesians 6:12- “For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against
principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness,
against the spirits of wickedness in high places.”On April 3, 1844, a leader of the AltaVendita named Nubius wrote a letter to another
highly-placed mason. The letter spoke again about the plan to infiltrate the
Catholic Church, and the attempt to insert a masonic “pope,” who would
promote the religion of Freemasonry. “Now then, in order to ensure a pope in the
required proportions, we must first of all prepare a generation worthy of the kingdom
of which we dream... Let the clergy move forward under your banner (the
masonic banner) always believing they are advancing under the banner
of the apostolic keys. Cast your net like Simon Bar Jonas; spread it to the bottom
of sacristies, seminaries, and convents ... You will have finished a revolution dressed
in the pope’s triple crown and cape, carrying the cross and the flag, a revolution that
will need only a small stimulus to set fire to the four corners of the earth.” 7
Freemason Eliph Levi said in 1862: “A day will come when the pope... will
declare that all the excommunications are lifted and all the anathemas
are retracted, when all the Christians will be united within the Church, when the
Jews and Moslems will be blessed and called back to her . . . she will permit all sects
to approach her by degrees and will embrace all mankind in the communion of her
love and prayers. Then, Protestants will no longer exist. Against what will they be able
to protest? The sovereign pontiff will then be truly king of the religious world, and he
will do whatever he wishes with all the nations of the earth.” 8
An apostate priest and former canon-lawyer, 9 named Fr. Roca (1830-1893), after
being excommunicated said: “The papacy will fall; it will die under the hallowed knife
which the fathers of the last council will forge.” 10 Roca also said: “You must have a
new dogma, a new religion, a new ministry, and new rituals that very closely resemble
those of the surrendered Church. The divine cult directed by the liturgy,
ceremonial, ritual and regulations of the Roman Catholic Church will
shortly undergo transformation at an ecumenical Council.” 11

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,607
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #131 on: November 25, 2018, 01:00:39 AM »
The Communists and the Freemasons. Wow.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,599
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2018, 01:09:11 AM »
The Communists and the Freemasons. Wow.
But...  But...  Isn't the Church of Rome inerrant?
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,607
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2018, 01:35:04 AM »
The Communists and the Freemasons. Wow.
But...  But...  Isn't the Church of Rome inerrant?

What is it with you and the RCC Pope?
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,599
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Would you or would you not leave the Roman Catholic Church?
« Reply #134 on: November 25, 2018, 01:36:42 AM »
What is it with you and the RCC Pope?
Huh?
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός