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Author Topic: Was Moses Black?  (Read 2123 times) Average Rating: 0
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Truth_or_Bust
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« on: October 28, 2005, 12:30:45 PM »

Greetings,
I have a question.  I noticed the Copitc Church has an Icon of a black Moses.  I also notice that most of the Icons I see for Jesus and Mary are white.   This is a bit confusing.  If Moses and presumably the Israelites were black how could Christ and Mary be white? 

Please suffer this question which answer escapes me!

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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2005, 12:49:13 PM »

The "Moses the Black " Icon you are referring to is a dipiction of a monk from Alexandria. He was a bandit and ran a gang of thieves , robbed and pillaged most of his life...Don't know who turned his heart to God but late in his life he became a monk and while he was an abbot of a monastery a band of thieves tried to raid the monastery...Abba Moses got most of the monks out in time but he and a few others stayed behind to defend the church and slow down the thieves...needless to say all the monks who stayed were killed and father moses was found dead as well. Many people have prayed for his assistance and even Haile Sellassie the last king of Ethiopia prayed, during a battle, to Abba Moses for his prayers to God for his mercy. They won. Also he has been seen in other battles that the faithful got into, leading the army. These battles were also won. He is a favorite of the Orthodox in Africa.
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2005, 12:55:43 PM »

Ah. So the icon was not of Moses the Israelite! That solves the problem.  Thanks!
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2005, 03:55:50 PM »

Life of St. Moses the black

St Moses was born at around the 4th century AD. He was a Abyssinian (Nubian) slave, idolater, killer, and robber. He was not convinced of himself and was not satisfied with the things he was doing, so he began to search for the one eternal God of the Universe, and often asked himself if it was the sun, and it came to pass, a coptic farmer guided him to go to the Sheheet Wilderness where he would find monks to teach him about the living God, and so our saint made his way through the wilderness, and met his spiritual father St Isedorous the priest of the monastery cells. St Isedorous took our saint to St Makar, and soon enough St Moses confessed all his many sins at the hands of St Makar. St Makar then saw a angel erase from a black platter every sin St Moses confessed of, until the black platter became white and clean after St Moses fully confessed his sins.
   After St Moses made his confession, St Isedorous took our saint to the monastery of St Bishoy, and baptised him in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
   Our Saint soon earned a reputation for being a great hermit, very modest, and full of kindness towards sinners, so he became worthy to be ordained a priest at the hands of the 23rd Pope, Pope Thaophelous.
   After the passing of time our saint became much advanced in years, while he was sitting with St Makar, St Makar said that he saw a crown of martyrdom, falling on the head of one of those seated with him and seven other crowns for other brothers, St Moses replied Perhaps it is I, for the Lord said "For all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword". A few days later, as predicted the barbarians attacked the monastery, and St Moses together with 7 other monks attained the crowns of martyrdom.
May their prayers be with us all, and glory be to God forever. Amen.
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2005, 04:29:33 PM »

However
Moses the Israelite married a Middiantie woman who would have been a person of color
Also, Jesus and Mary as Palestinian Jews (as opposed to white European Jews) also would have been people of color

Until you get to Greek and Roman converts there aren't too many honkies in the old Tesatament or new Testatment Churches
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 09:27:22 PM »

Depending on the Regen at the time. one was either black or Olive color. But at the time of first man and women.No one really know what their color was. As for Jesus in the regen where was born his skin was of Olive color, as we see in the in the middle east. But now in the middle east you have Black, white, brownÂÂ  and light brown which is the olive color.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 09:29:09 PM by Father Paul Andrew » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 10:09:21 PM »

St. Moses the Black
 
   
St. Moses the Black was a former gang leader, murderer, and thief in ancient Africa. However, he became a model of transformation. His is one of the most inspiring stories among the African saints.

Moses, an escaped slave, was the leader of a group of 75 robbers. He was a large and powerful man, who with his gang terrorized the entire region. Moses was transformed after he and his group attacked a monastery, intending to rob it. He was met by the abbot, whose peaceful and warm manner overwhelmed him. He immediately felt remorse for all his past sins, sincerely repented, and begged to remain at the monastery.

Moses was tortured by his past and for years was tempted to return to his old ways. One day, as he was confessing his sins to St. Macarius, an angel appeared with a tablet full of his sins. As he confessed, the angel began wiping the tablet clean. The more he confessed, the more the angel wiped, until by the end it was completely clean. After meeting St. Macarius and St. Isidore, he completely left his old ways behind him and became a monk.

Later, St. Moses was ordained to the priesthood -- a rare honor among the Desert Fathers -- and founded a monastery of 75 monks, the same number as his former group of thieves. He was known for his wisdom, humility, love, and non-judgment of others. Once a brother had been caught in a particular sin, and the abbot asked St. Moses to come to the church and render judgment. He came reluctantly, carrying on his back a leaking bag of sand. When he arrived, the brothers asked him why he was carrying such a thing. He simply said, "This sand is my sins which are trailing out behind me, while I go to judge the sins of another." At that reply, the brothers forgave the offender and returned to focusing on their own salvation rather than the sins of their brother.

In 405 A.D., at age 75, St. Moses suffered a martyr's death, when his monastery was attacked by a group of barbarians. He is remembered on the 28th of August. Today he is considered the patron saint of African Americans. St. Moses the Black, pray to God for us!
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 11:13:39 PM »

actually I think I was reading on www.goarch.org or somewhere else that in Black African countries, people are portrayed as black skin coloured in icons, even Jesus.
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2006, 08:03:49 PM »

actually I think I was reading on www.goarch.org or somewhere else that in Black African countries, people are portrayed as black skin coloured in icons, even Jesus.

Eh, they did the same thing in Europe - making Jesus quite fair skinned....

I like what I've seen in most Orthodox iconography, where He is darker than European White....
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2006, 08:42:56 PM »

Eh, they did the same thing in Europe - making Jesus quite fair skinned....

I like what I've seen in most Orthodox iconography, where He is darker than European White....

We just bought a new icon set of the Theotokos & Christ from Light & Life and they're both dark skinned.  We like the way they look.
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 01:10:05 AM »

I would like unravel a few colloquialisms:

"fair" skinned or (anything else) Means: Good; NOT WHITE or lite or brite or anything relating to color. It just means GOOD.
Remember the movie "May fair lady". This was not to mean "My WHITE lady". It meant pretty or good or nice or attractive. No specific color. When the Bible uses "fair" it is also implying pretty, nice, or attractive. The Bible will sometimes use the term "comely" which is the same intent.

"black African countries": I do not know what biggot started this but it has become in common use and is now being used rather innocently by people. THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS BLACK AFRICAN COUNTRIES OR BLACK AFRICA OR BLACK AFRICANS.
Africa has various countries just like all other continents. Does Europe have White countries and Asia brown and maybe yellow countries. of course no body speaks this way about these areas of the world since it is stupid to say "White Europe" or "yellow Asian countries. So why say "black African countries"? A racist and his buddies started it and it just stuck; thats why. Also some people want to pretend that Africa has people, history and cultures that are not African and thus must be separated from anything African to avoid an association with blackness. These people are the worse kinds of racist because they do not know they are racist.

An Egyptian born Arab told me that Africa starts "south of the Sahara". I told him "wishful thinking....read any map and you will see that the Sahara is IN Africa not south of it". Of course he said this stupid statement out of desperation since he does not want to be aligned with any possible connection with blackness. He is not white (he found that out after 911 if he did not know before) but if his Arab Egyptianess was general assumed as connected with Europe and white he would have no problem with that.

Yes; any indigenous person of Africa is by description black but it is proper to say "African countries" when talking about the continent; unless race is also part of your issue.

Finally;
St. Moses is a martyr.
His story is allot more respectful than the words used on the posts to date.
He is first an important saint in the Holy Church. His being black is just as irrelevant as any European saint being white.

The Moses of the Old testament period was a Hebrew (There were NO Jews on earth at the time of his life). Many to most Hebrews were very dark people mixing into ancient Egyptian population almost seamlessly. He married an Ethiopian. At this time in history and Ethiopian was not like a large number of todays Ethiopians who look more like African Americans now; these were really , really d a r k people. Like the indigenous Sudanese, central Africans and south Indians of India we see today.

"black" Means: ??
Africans ONLY?, Some Asians?, Also Asians?, some Europeans??,

This word is crippled: You can call anyone white by default without conflict if they are not specifically "African" in certain stereo typical ways.

Remember the word is Germanic and thus some people who are classified as such although are members of the group reject the term for more indigenous terms. Some African Americans prefer terms from the bible such as Cush or Kushi, Mezramite, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Sabean, Nubian, Ham, an the like. Some western people want to pretend that African Americans have no right to equate with these biblical peoples.

Pain of the racist mind is sad.

They have (We have) the right to make these associations since these are African cultures.

What a European calls the black race and (blacks) call the black race is not the same thing all the time.

But who is right?

My logic is>>>>>
Just like you...let me tell you who I am and treat me accordingly. What you want to believe I am is your own business; and their will be no problem as long as you do not share that belief in a way or ways that offend me>>>>
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2006, 01:54:45 AM »

St. Moses the Black
 
  ÃƒÆ’‚  
St. Moses the Black was a former gang leader, murderer, and thief in ancient Africa. However, he became a model of transformation. His is one of the most inspiring stories among the African saints.

Moses, an escaped slave, was the leader of a group of 75 robbers. He was a large and powerful man, who with his gang terrorized the entire region. Moses was transformed after he and his group attacked a monastery, intending to rob it. He was met by the abbot, whose peaceful and warm manner overwhelmed him. He immediately felt remorse for all his past sins, sincerely repented, and begged to remain at the monastery.

Moses was tortured by his past and for years was tempted to return to his old ways. One day, as he was confessing his sins to St. Macarius, an angel appeared with a tablet full of his sins. As he confessed, the angel began wiping the tablet clean. The more he confessed, the more the angel wiped, until by the end it was completely clean. After meeting St. Macarius and St. Isidore, he completely left his old ways behind him and became a monk.

Later, St. Moses was ordained to the priesthood -- a rare honor among the Desert Fathers -- and founded a monastery of 75 monks, the same number as his former group of thieves. He was known for his wisdom, humility, love, and non-judgment of others. Once a brother had been caught in a particular sin, and the abbot asked St. Moses to come to the church and render judgment. He came reluctantly, carrying on his back a leaking bag of sand. When he arrived, the brothers asked him why he was carrying such a thing. He simply said, "This sand is my sins which are trailing out behind me, while I go to judge the sins of another." At that reply, the brothers forgave the offender and returned to focusing on their own salvation rather than the sins of their brother.

In 405 A.D., at age 75, St. Moses suffered a martyr's death, when his monastery was attacked by a group of barbarians. He is remembered on the 28th of August. Today he is considered the patron saint of African Americans. St. Moses the Black, pray to God for us!

that is the wrong Moses, the Mosee they are talking about is ten Moses that took his people home to Israel
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2006, 02:06:45 AM »

that is the wrong Moses, the Mosee they are talking about is ten Moses that took his people home to Israel
Here we have the same problem of not listening to others.
If you read this thread, you may notice that the original poster saw an Icon of a "black" Moses, and it turns out to be an icon of St. Moses the Ethiopian.
Read a few posts back in this thread and you will see that it is indeed St. Moses the Ethiopian they are talking about and not the Prophet Moses the Israelite, as did the original poster nearly eight months ago:
Ah. So the icon was not of Moses the Israelite! That solves the problem.  Thanks!
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2006, 04:03:17 PM »


"black African countries": I do not know what biggot started this but it has become in common use and is now being used rather innocently by people. THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS BLACK AFRICAN COUNTRIES OR BLACK AFRICA OR BLACK AFRICANS.

I simply refered to "black african countries" because there are countries in africa that are not black majorities such as Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco ETC... I said that because in those countries Jesus is not portrayed as Black, but in Black majority countries in Africa he is. Would you have me use that term instead? I see no sign of racism by speaking about the 80% of Africa that does have a black majority. By Black Africa I mean the non-Arabiczed Africa. I dont think thats racist, but forgive me if I offended you.
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2006, 08:08:55 PM »

By Black Africa I mean the non-Arabiczed Africa. I dont think thats racist, but forgive me if I offended you.

Plenty of countries in "Black Africa" have had considerable Arab influences, to the point where they are culturally more similar to nations north of them than to the rest of the south. Kenya, Tanzania, parts of Nigeria...
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2006, 01:18:10 AM »

No offense Taken!!!

I just wanted to express my point on how people struggle to be very specific to make certain distinctions when speaking about Africa.

Saying "Arabized" builds on my point.

Their are aspects of other countries that have been Culturally "ized" but such careful specificity to that is not required.

Modern Israel is Europeanized ... no argument; but we do not have people concerning themselves with that. People do not distinguish European Jews from Jews; people when speaking about Israel just say "Jews". I think that thats fine since "Jewishness" is paramount to Israel and as such it is normal (no matter how Europeanized) to speak of Jews or as we say today Israelis when speaking about todays Israel. All things fade to Israel. As it should.

Blackness is paramount to "Africa". You say Africa you say black. If there is Arabized conditions then so be it; they are the subject of Africa ...in Africa. All things fade to Africa. As it should.

Their is an overwhelming American, dutch and English ization  on the continent as well; do not forget. But this also fades to Africa. Which has!!
It is the Arab situation it seems (in my view) that is the non-converging cultural element that is kept in a state of NOT AFRICA by the west (and Arabs).

People in the West Indies are called West Indians. Most of the people in the West Indies are African descent. Their is a mixture of Indians (from India) and local indigenous peoples. The culture on these island countries have an overwhelming amount of Indian (from India) culture as well as African. But all things fade to West Indies. As it should.

Think of black history in America and ask yourself...Is not black history really simply American History? Of course the answer is yes. This issue helps to make my (complex) point. In America white people believe(d) that only white people in America are true Americans and thus what they do is American history. Black people however; must be "specifically" separated and thus not included in this American history. So we now have "black history". This is a product of racism. The contributions of black people in America still has not faded to American to this day. Even thought black people built the country (for free) and fought with the whites for independents from their British Lords and all other wars thereafter. Amazing!

Saying black history is no difference from saying "black Africa".....it is racist and bigoted. A need to distinguish between so-callled "Arabized" Africa and Africa is a product of this racist mindset.

Thats not your fault. It is just the way things are. Particular in the west. You will not find a black person saying "black Africa". Black people view Africa as Africa and  "black"....Period. WE know that some whites live their and some Arabs live their. And that western influence and some Asian influence is present. It does not matter at all....It all fades to African just like everywhere else on Earth.

Hey look at how the early British over 400 years Americanized British culture. Americans see its culture as American. Its Actually British.
But all things fade to American. NO body says I am British descent in America. So where are the British descent? They are in America still but they refer to a term "blue-blooded" American.

Feel free to use what language you are use to. I am not offended. I just want people to think about the issue I pointed out.

Thanks
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