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Offline noahzarc1

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Understanding the Western Rite
« on: September 05, 2018, 03:59:00 PM »
I have attempted to read just about every thread posted under this child board since 2003. Many of the discussions have been helpful, but some often went off in directions that got off topic from the OP, but I still learned a lot. This post is meant to help me better understand the Western Rite as I investigate it. Just a few questions for now. Thanks in advance.

1. Is there any evidence the Eastern Orthodox practiced the Western Rite at any point after the schism? My understanding of the argument is that prior to the schism, technically the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church did have the Western Rite, because the Roman Rite was practiced in the West and they were still part of the church and thus the entire church was whole, (i.e what belonged to Byzantium, what belonged to the west, etc). It seems then it was the Roman Church that practiced the Western Rite and the Eastern Churches had their liturgies. I don't see an issue with this. I am trying to ascertain why the restoration of the Western Rite to Orthodoxy?

2. I have viewed the restoration of the Western Rite within the east as the east being somewhat opportunistic. Sorry I hate to use that type of analogy. I spent nearly 2 years in an Eastern Rite Catholic Church and these rites are either largely ignored (by the general Catholic laity) or reviled (by the more conservative laity). Now it seems the other way around in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Orthodox seem just as unsure of what to make of the Western Rite as the Westerners are of what to make of their Eastern Rites. If the Orthodox were never interested in practicing the western rite after 1054, why all of a sudden in the late 1800's? Did it really begin after Vatican I went down? I'm trying to not only understand the history, which I think I'm getting, but the timing and why of it all.

3. It is often said the western Rite is to better help western Christians enter Orthodoxy. How is that so? I have some reservations about this and here is why.  In my estimation, anyone born anytime in the 1960s and beyond, if they were not introduced or a part of any "traditionalist" movements via their parents, etc, have no recollection of any other mass than the Novus Ordo of Paul VI. Most western Christians coming home to Orthodoxy, in my estimation, are coming out of either Roman Catholic Novus Ordo experience, Protestant evangelical experiences (many of whom were former Catholics), Lutheran or some other protestant sect. Other than checking it out, I don't see that any Eastern Orthodox raised in the west would want to switch rites to better experience Orthodoxy. Therefore, (and this is a point I raised to a Western Rite priest I've been meeting with) is that it has left me to wonder if the people most drawn to the western rite are disgruntled Anglicans and probably disgruntled former traditionalist Catholics. I know almost nothing about Anglicanism and I've never been to an Anglican Church, but it sounds to me as if their liturgy was the Mass of St. Gregory or the Tridentine Mass (minus the changes they made) and either tradition's masses were taken and now make up what we're now calling the Western Rite after an Orthodox tune up.

4. Regarding the Orthodox tune up, is the Western Rite actually using the Mass of St. Gregory or the oldest form of the Rite? It seems like from what I've read is that it is either the Mass of the Anglicans or the Tridentine Mass revamped with the correct Orthodoxy and approved for use. I've been to the Tridentine Mass. I've been to the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. When I began attending the Western Rite liturgy, to me it was basically the Tridentine Mass with some parts I recognized from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Upon research I learned the major changes made to the Liturgies are the removal of the filioque from the Creed, (please no comments on the Filioque, I'm well familiar with both sides), the addition of a clear Epiclesis, and removal of any mention of the merits of the saints or the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which were sonsidered later additions to the liturgies. Also, the Prayer “I believe and I confess…” (From the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom) has been added. Is this truly a Western Rite? I know "how old a rite is" is a cumbersome conversation that really doesn't serve an ultimate purpose other than to say this is older than that. However, I have be reticent to accept this "western rite is being restored" by adding in parts of the eastern rite to make it "more orthodox."

The point here is that I don't see how the Western Rite is helping us westerners come into Orthodoxy? Prior to 2014, I had never known or ever seen the liturgy of St. James. Prior to 2016, I had never, ever seen the Tridentine Mass. I only knew what I knew of it from what my dad told me, as he was born in 1932 and lived under the traditional church for 40 years before the changes. However, and I do like this, an Orthodox Priest told me that the being western, if he had a drive in either direction to an Eastern Orthodox or western Orthodox the most orthodox thing he could do, was go to the western Orthodox Church. I suppose had there been no schism and all things being as they were us in the west would be western Rite? That is how I've understood my conversations with him. I am not opposed to his thinking on these matters. Finally I will just say I enjoyed the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in the vernacular just as much as I've enjoyed the Western Rite in the vernacular. Similarly I struggled with both liturgies, when one was primarily Greek and the other was all Latin. Therefore, in my opinion, it is not the rite that evangelizes a people but their language. 

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 04:59:05 PM »
Quote
2. I have viewed the restoration of the Western Rite within the east as the east being somewhat opportunistic. Sorry I hate to use that type of analogy. I spent nearly 2 years in an Eastern Rite Catholic Church and these rites are either largely ignored (by the general Catholic laity) or reviled (by the more conservative laity). Now it seems the other way around in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Orthodox seem just as unsure of what to make of the Western Rite as the Westerners are of what to make of their Eastern Rites. If the Orthodox were never interested in practicing the western rite after 1054, why all of a sudden in the late 1800's? Did it really begin after Vatican I went down? I'm trying to not only understand the history, which I think I'm getting, but the timing and why of it all.

It wasn't made to evangelize, it was begun by request of converting Catholics and Anglo-Catholics (especially the scholar and ex-Catholic priest, Joseph Julian Overbeck in the 1860s. Though Overbeck's ideas themselves were actually blocked by the Greek Church).

So it's no surprise that it will appeal mostly to a contemporary minority of Trad Catholics, sedevacantists, and really conservative High Church Protestants.

Speaking as one of those relatively heritage-less Western Low Churchers, there is something about the Western Rite that appeals to me I can't deny it--the opportunity to worship kind of like Orthodox Britain or Germany did in the Early Middle Ages. But it's all so distant from anything that I actually grew up with, that in practice I'd be just as happy going East.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 05:04:37 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 05:10:41 PM »
Is there any evidence the Eastern Orthodox practiced the Western Rite at any point after the schism? My understanding of the argument is that prior to the schism, technically the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church did have the Western Rite, because the Roman Rite was practiced in the West and they were still part of the church and thus the entire church was whole, (i.e what belonged to Byzantium, what belonged to the west, etc).
The Monastery of Amalfion, in Mount Athos, was Benedictine Orthodox until it was destroyed by pirates. Many consider England and Ireland to have been Orthodox after 1054, and honestly, truth is 1054 is just an arbitrary date.

Quote
If the Orthodox were never interested in practicing the western rite after 1054, why all of a sudden in the late 1800's? Did it really begin after Vatican I went down?
As Volnutt mentioned, the thing is that it was Western ritualists who have been coming to the Church since the late XIX century, not vice-versa. If the nonjurors had become Orthodox back in the XVII century as some negotiation suggested, it might have happened back then.

Quote
In my estimation, anyone born anytime in the 1960s and beyond, if they were not introduced or a part of any "traditionalist" movements via their parents, etc, have no recollection of any other mass than the Novus Ordo of Paul VI. Most western Christians coming home to Orthodoxy, in my estimation, are coming out of either Roman Catholic Novus Ordo experience, Protestant evangelical experiences (many of whom were former Catholics), Lutheran or some other protestant sect.
It's still aesthetically much closer though.

Quote
It seems like from what I've read is that it is either the Mass of the Anglicans or the Tridentine Mass revamped with the correct Orthodoxy and approved for use. [...] Is this truly a Western Rite? I know "how old a rite is" is a cumbersome conversation that really doesn't serve an ultimate purpose other than to say this is older than that. However, I have be reticent to accept this "western rite is being restored" by adding in parts of the eastern rite to make it "more orthodox."
Rites change, I really don't see any issue. The Mozarabic rite is Eastern-ish in some points. The Armenian rite is Western-ish on others. The Orthodox Western rite is massively Western, but the idea is not artificially bringing the old mass back from the dead, that's not what any liturgics is about. It has always developed.

Quote
Therefore, in my opinion, it is not the rite that evangelizes a people but their language.
I sympathise with where you're going, but I still think rite is a bit relevant.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 05:13:00 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2018, 05:25:22 PM »
Quote
2. I have viewed the restoration of the Western Rite within the east as the east being somewhat opportunistic. Sorry I hate to use that type of analogy. I spent nearly 2 years in an Eastern Rite Catholic Church and these rites are either largely ignored (by the general Catholic laity) or reviled (by the more conservative laity). Now it seems the other way around in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Orthodox seem just as unsure of what to make of the Western Rite as the Westerners are of what to make of their Eastern Rites. If the Orthodox were never interested in practicing the western rite after 1054, why all of a sudden in the late 1800's? Did it really begin after Vatican I went down? I'm trying to not only understand the history, which I think I'm getting, but the timing and why of it all.

It wasn't made to evangelize, it was begun by request of converting Catholics and Anglo-Catholics (especially the scholar and ex-Catholic priest, Joseph Julian Overbeck in the 1860s. Though Overbeck's ideas themselves were actually blocked by the Greek Church).
Exactly. It was then — and more or less remains — a pastoral provision. A fine one, even. People who talk about using a rite to evangelize now don't really seem to live in human culture. No one outside the church cares about what rite is used there if they aren't already familiar with it. They care about 1). are the people nice? 2). do I like the services? and 3). do I feel like I can become part of this community?

And point 2 is only broadly connected to the concept of rite.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 05:25:45 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2018, 05:41:41 PM »
Quote
2. I have viewed the restoration of the Western Rite within the east as the east being somewhat opportunistic. Sorry I hate to use that type of analogy. I spent nearly 2 years in an Eastern Rite Catholic Church and these rites are either largely ignored (by the general Catholic laity) or reviled (by the more conservative laity). Now it seems the other way around in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Orthodox seem just as unsure of what to make of the Western Rite as the Westerners are of what to make of their Eastern Rites. If the Orthodox were never interested in practicing the western rite after 1054, why all of a sudden in the late 1800's? Did it really begin after Vatican I went down? I'm trying to not only understand the history, which I think I'm getting, but the timing and why of it all.

It wasn't made to evangelize, it was begun by request of converting Catholics and Anglo-Catholics (especially the scholar and ex-Catholic priest, Joseph Julian Overbeck in the 1860s. Though Overbeck's ideas themselves were actually blocked by the Greek Church).
Exactly. It was then — and more or less remains — a pastoral provision. A fine one, even. People who talk about using a rite to evangelize now don't really seem to live in human culture. No one outside the church cares about what rite is used there if they aren't already familiar with it. They care about 1). are the people nice? 2). do I like the services? and 3). do I feel like I can become part of this community?

And point 2 is only broadly connected to the concept of rite.

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2018, 05:48:05 PM »
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2018, 07:16:29 PM »
But it's all so distant from anything that I actually grew up with, that in practice I'd be just as happy going East.

That is exactly how I felt. I was searching for an Orthodox Church when I came across a Western Rite one. At first, from the internet pictures, I did not go because I thought it was a traditionalist Catholic site or something else. Had it not been for hearing an interview with their priest on AFR, I would've probably never went. After I heard him discuss what the Western Rite was I decided to investigate. But I agree with you. I was raised in the Novus Ordo, was protestant for 20 years, had a brief brush with Greek Orthodoxy and a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church before going home to Rome. After I couldn't stand the Novus Ordo, I was in and out of Trad Cath and Eastern Rite before realizing where I belonged. Anyway, you hit the nail on the head for me. I love the Western Rite, but I love the Eastern Rite just as much.

So basically I am sitting right here in the middle trying to figure it all out.

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2018, 07:18:27 PM »
They care about 1). are the people nice? 2). do I like the services? and 3). do I feel like I can become part of this community?

BINGO. Which is exactly why I keep going back to the Western Rite. I feel more at home honestly when I'm in the Eastern Rite liturgy. I feel more at home in the Western Rite after the service ends. I loved the Carpatho-Russian Church ... loved it. I hated the Carpatho-Russian church when it was time for the meal after liturgy ... hated it.

Your comment serves to spell out exactly the reason why.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2018, 07:55:04 PM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?
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Offline JTLoganville

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 08:13:26 PM »
BINGO. Which is exactly why I keep going back to the Western Rite. I feel more at home honestly when I'm in the Eastern Rite liturgy. I feel more at home in the Western Rite after the service ends. I loved the Carpatho-Russian Church ... loved it. I hated the Carpatho-Russian church when it was time for the meal after liturgy ... hated it.

Are you going for the Great Eucharistic Banquet or for the coffee hour?

Check your motives.

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2018, 09:54:53 PM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?

Sorry, should have clarified it. Loved the liturgy. It was all in English. However, my favorite part was the "our Father." They had over 20 different nationalities represented in that church, so at the our Father, the entire church sang it together, in English, then someone from one of the national languages said it in their tongue. Very beautiful. The issue was after at the fellowship meal. The Russians sat with the Russians, the Greeks with the Greeks, the Spanish/Hispanics with their own group and all talking in their own tongue. Then there were us non-natives. I just often felt very left out. But this is not to pick on the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, because the same thing happened when I was at a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Now it was much smaller, so there was fellowship, but I just felt oddly an outcast not being Ukrainian.

Therefore, when I was in the Novus Ordo, it had a lot of nationalities, but it felt like a common heritage. I've kind of felt this same oneness in the Western Rite. 

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 10:16:02 PM »
BINGO. Which is exactly why I keep going back to the Western Rite. I feel more at home honestly when I'm in the Eastern Rite liturgy. I feel more at home in the Western Rite after the service ends. I loved the Carpatho-Russian Church ... loved it. I hated the Carpatho-Russian church when it was time for the meal after liturgy ... hated it.

Are you going for the Great Eucharistic Banquet or for the coffee hour?

Check your motives.

Well the coffee hour of course. I mean, why else would I start this thread? It's not like I'm interested in making not only an informed decision but also desiring to understand the development of the various liturgies and the current developments in the last 100+ years in the west. I mean, these things actually do not interest me.

My sole motivation here is coffee.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 10:16:36 PM by noahzarc1 »

Offline JTLoganville

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 10:22:53 PM »
Absent a sarcasm "/s", thanks for the brutal honesty.

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 11:30:01 PM »
I like the western rites, however, I think mantaining them is more a exercise of consideration for the liturgial tradition of the west than a evangelizing tool, unless you are from an area with a lot of episcopalians/anglicans and catholics old enough to remember the pre VII mass. In my country, the episcopalian/anglican presence is quite diminute and barely noticeable, and they have a lot of internal schisms and a lots of their clergy involved shamelessly in left wing parties, pro abortion, pro gay marriage kind of stuff.

For brazilians, I think, one of the things that more atract them towards orthodoxy is the eastern rite, after so many years of happy clappy priests and histrionic evangelical pastors shouting in a microfone like crazy, the beauty, splendor and respect of the Divine Liturgy is definitely something atractive.





Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2018, 11:38:38 PM »

For brazilians, I think, one of the things that more atract them towards orthodoxy is the eastern rite, after so many years of happy clappy priests and histrionic evangelical pastors shouting in a microfone like crazy, the beauty, splendor and respect of the Divine Liturgy is definitely something atractive.

Thanks for your thoughts. This is what I distinctly remember the first time I attending a Divine Liturgy for Advent in 2014 at a Greek Orthodox Church. At that time, I had been out of Catholicism for 20 years, and other than just a few weddings, etc, I had not been in any type of setting where a liturgy was used. I remembered being immediately struck by it and with my faint familiarity with Catholicism, I didn't feel too awkward, but also knew this was nothing I had experienced before.

I hate to sound so post modern, but I guess this time around I am trying to take a wholistic approach to this final decision. Which one works culturally for me. I think if I went for straight theology, mere rubrics, etc, I would probably choose the Eastern Rite. However, as I consider the reality of my life, which group actually represents the culture in which I was raised, reared and developed? I feel there is much to consider.

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2018, 12:04:23 AM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?

Sorry, should have clarified it. Loved the liturgy. It was all in English. However, my favorite part was the "our Father." They had over 20 different nationalities represented in that church, so at the our Father, the entire church sang it together, in English, then someone from one of the national languages said it in their tongue. Very beautiful. The issue was after at the fellowship meal. The Russians sat with the Russians, the Greeks with the Greeks, the Spanish/Hispanics with their own group and all talking in their own tongue. Then there were us non-natives. I just often felt very left out. But this is not to pick on the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, because the same thing happened when I was at a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Now it was much smaller, so there was fellowship, but I just felt oddly an outcast not being Ukrainian.

Therefore, when I was in the Novus Ordo, it had a lot of nationalities, but it felt like a common heritage. I've kind of felt this same oneness in the Western Rite.

Well, I guess you could try just (politely) butting in. Sit down at a spare seat and make random comments in English whenever there's a lull in the conversation. Repeat as needed until they're used to you.  ;D
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2018, 12:08:24 AM »
I took about one year to start doing this in my own language. The least ENFP thing I ever did.
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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2018, 12:08:42 AM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?

Sorry, should have clarified it. Loved the liturgy. It was all in English. However, my favorite part was the "our Father." They had over 20 different nationalities represented in that church, so at the our Father, the entire church sang it together, in English, then someone from one of the national languages said it in their tongue. Very beautiful.

I might have visited that parish.  I found it annoying.

Coffee hour was fun, though.  I sat with the Crimeans to my left, Ethiopians to my right.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2018, 10:45:09 AM »
Well, I guess you could try just (politely) butting in. Sit down at a spare seat and make random comments in English whenever there's a lull in the conversation. Repeat as needed until they're used to you.  ;D

I did, in both places. In the Carpatho-Russian church I ended up meeting a wonderful couple, she was from Russian and lived under the Bolsheviks and he was raised in Ireland as an atheist. He was a deacon in the church. It was awesome to hear both of their stories. Actually, the lady from Russia was the one that really made me think the most about "evangelism" in the former Soviet countries after she explained to me what the Orthodox suffered and made it through under the Communists. Similarly, I enjoyed experiencing the Ukrainian culture, especially at Pascha. Boy do they love their sausage, and I tried some great recipes.

I grew up in a very ethnically diverse area and live in one. I love ethnic diversity, so I am not opposed to it. So ethnic diversity is a wonderful thing and I would not want to be without it.  However, I do not want it to get in the way of the Church, but I recognize that statement can be ambiguous. Trust me, I experienced the "southern Bible Belt" and it can be just as exclusive as anything.

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2018, 10:47:35 AM »
I took about one year to start doing this in my own language. The least ENFP thing I ever did.

ENFP? Is that the "free spirit" personality?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2018, 10:58:21 AM »
Speaking as one of those relatively heritage-less Western Low Churchers, there is something about the Western Rite that appeals to me I can't deny it--the opportunity to worship kind of like Orthodox Britain or Germany did in the Early Middle Ages. But it's all so distant from anything that I actually grew up with, that in practice I'd be just as happy going East.

That wasn't the case for me. I grew up Pentecostalist and still felt right at home when first participating in traditional Western rite. Over time that happened with Byzantine rite too but that took several years.

Rite isn't the most important aspect of Orthodoxy but I don't buy the idea that it's completely irrelevant when it comes people's experiences. Even in case of people with no experience on any rite. It's called "Western" rite for a reason.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:00:01 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2018, 11:11:36 AM »
Which rite were you exposed to first? That might have something to do with it. I've never been to a Western Rite parish, I don't think there are any in my state.

Save for Eastern music, I think Eastern and Western have more in common with one another than either has with a Pentecostal service.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:12:05 AM by Volnutt »
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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2018, 11:28:48 AM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?

Sorry, should have clarified it. Loved the liturgy. It was all in English. However, my favorite part was the "our Father." They had over 20 different nationalities represented in that church, so at the our Father, the entire church sang it together, in English, then someone from one of the national languages said it in their tongue. Very beautiful. The issue was after at the fellowship meal. The Russians sat with the Russians, the Greeks with the Greeks, the Spanish/Hispanics with their own group and all talking in their own tongue. Then there were us non-natives. I just often felt very left out. But this is not to pick on the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, because the same thing happened when I was at a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Now it was much smaller, so there was fellowship, but I just felt oddly an outcast not being Ukrainian.

Therefore, when I was in the Novus Ordo, it had a lot of nationalities, but it felt like a common heritage. I've kind of felt this same oneness in the Western Rite.

Well, I guess you could try just (politely) butting in. Sit down at a spare seat and make random comments in English whenever there's a lull in the conversation. Repeat as needed until they're used to you.  ;D

When you try this, everyone looks at you like you're dumb and returns to speaking in (language redacted), after a year you get fed up.
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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2018, 11:30:01 AM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?

Sorry, should have clarified it. Loved the liturgy. It was all in English. However, my favorite part was the "our Father." They had over 20 different nationalities represented in that church, so at the our Father, the entire church sang it together, in English, then someone from one of the national languages said it in their tongue. Very beautiful. The issue was after at the fellowship meal. The Russians sat with the Russians, the Greeks with the Greeks, the Spanish/Hispanics with their own group and all talking in their own tongue. Then there were us non-natives. I just often felt very left out. But this is not to pick on the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, because the same thing happened when I was at a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Now it was much smaller, so there was fellowship, but I just felt oddly an outcast not being Ukrainian.

Therefore, when I was in the Novus Ordo, it had a lot of nationalities, but it felt like a common heritage. I've kind of felt this same oneness in the Western Rite.

Well, I guess you could try just (politely) butting in. Sit down at a spare seat and make random comments in English whenever there's a lull in the conversation. Repeat as needed until they're used to you.  ;D

When you try this, everyone looks at you like you're dumb and returns to speaking in (language redacted), after a year you get fed up.

Lol
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2018, 11:42:06 AM »
Was this an ACROD church? Most ACROD parishes are composed mainly of 3rd, 4th generation Americans so your experience is not exactly typical.
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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2018, 11:45:24 AM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?

Sorry, should have clarified it. Loved the liturgy. It was all in English. However, my favorite part was the "our Father." They had over 20 different nationalities represented in that church, so at the our Father, the entire church sang it together, in English, then someone from one of the national languages said it in their tongue. Very beautiful. The issue was after at the fellowship meal. The Russians sat with the Russians, the Greeks with the Greeks, the Spanish/Hispanics with their own group and all talking in their own tongue. Then there were us non-natives. I just often felt very left out. But this is not to pick on the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, because the same thing happened when I was at a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Now it was much smaller, so there was fellowship, but I just felt oddly an outcast not being Ukrainian.

Therefore, when I was in the Novus Ordo, it had a lot of nationalities, but it felt like a common heritage. I've kind of felt this same oneness in the Western Rite.

Well, I guess you could try just (politely) butting in. Sit down at a spare seat and make random comments in English whenever there's a lull in the conversation. Repeat as needed until they're used to you.  ;D

When you try this, everyone looks at you like you're dumb and returns to speaking in (language redacted), after a year you get fed up.

I'll defer to you guys's experience.
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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2018, 11:54:10 AM »
Why did you hate it so much, language?

Sorry, should have clarified it. Loved the liturgy. It was all in English. However, my favorite part was the "our Father." They had over 20 different nationalities represented in that church, so at the our Father, the entire church sang it together, in English, then someone from one of the national languages said it in their tongue. Very beautiful. The issue was after at the fellowship meal. The Russians sat with the Russians, the Greeks with the Greeks, the Spanish/Hispanics with their own group and all talking in their own tongue. Then there were us non-natives. I just often felt very left out. But this is not to pick on the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church, because the same thing happened when I was at a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Now it was much smaller, so there was fellowship, but I just felt oddly an outcast not being Ukrainian.

Therefore, when I was in the Novus Ordo, it had a lot of nationalities, but it felt like a common heritage. I've kind of felt this same oneness in the Western Rite.

Well, I guess you could try just (politely) butting in. Sit down at a spare seat and make random comments in English whenever there's a lull in the conversation. Repeat as needed until they're used to you.  ;D

When you try this, everyone looks at you like you're dumb and returns to speaking in (language redacted), after a year you get fed up.

I'll defer to you guys's experience.

NBD. I just found another parish that was full of (same ethnicity redacted) who were friendly.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2018, 12:23:38 PM »
I met some catholics of a schismatic group from the RCC that were interested in orthodoxy but never joined and remained in this schismatic sort of vetero-catholic community that was liturgically traditionalist. One of them said that he had a hard time keeping track of the liturgy, I ve never understand that to be honest, unless the liturgy is in another language, it is not hard to keep track of whats going on in the divine liturgy.

Maybe they were of those types that make a radical distinction between eastern christianity of western christianity, and make this image of orthodoxy that you must be some sort of mystical guru in a nirvana state to understand the Divine Liturgy; I thought those types were more common in the convertitis section, but apparently they exist in the western side of the fence as well.

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2018, 12:37:28 PM »
When you try this, everyone looks at you like you're dumb and returns to speaking in (language redacted), after a year you get fed up.

This is true and also a very interesting point in general about churches. I have been in Protestant churches where in some groups there is a clear delineation between types of groups. Just because you go to the same church, doesn't mean everyone thinks people are a part of their group. Therefore, just butting in to start conversation creates the same reactions.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2018, 12:42:04 PM »
Which rite were you exposed to first?

Orthodox? Eastern. There is no WRO in Finland. Before joining the Church I attended the Lutheran masses somewhat regularly and around here I guess they are on par with somewhat conservative Novus Ordo. As for WRO I've never attended a single service. Closest would be in Sweden where I plan to travel when I have some spare time.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 12:43:44 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2018, 12:43:26 PM »
I met some catholics of a schismatic group from the RCC that were interested in orthodoxy but never joined and remained in this schismatic sort of vetero-catholic community that was liturgically traditionalist. One of them said that he had a hard time keeping track of the liturgy, I ve never understand that to be honest, unless the liturgy is in another language, it is not hard to keep track of whats going on in the divine liturgy.

Maybe they were of those types that make a radical distinction between eastern christianity of western christianity, and make this image of orthodoxy that you must be some sort of mystical guru in a nirvana state to understand the Divine Liturgy; I thought those types were more common in the convertitis section, but apparently they exist in the western side of the fence as well.

He might have meant "follow along with the words as they're being said," which can be hard even when it's in your language if the priest talks really fast and mumbly.

Reading about the patterns of the Liturgy beforehand goes a long way towards mitigating this (and of course there's a lot of pretty easy visual cues, like to when the Readings begin), but it can still be easy to get lost in the individual things said.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 12:45:18 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2018, 12:44:08 PM »
Which rite were you exposed to first?

Orthodox? Eastern. There is no WRO in Finland. Before joining the Church I attended the Lutheran masses somewhat regularly and around here I guess they are on par with somewhat conservative Novus Ordo.

Oh, ok. I thought you were saying you WERE WR.
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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2018, 12:45:07 PM »
^Would be if that was possible.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2018, 12:50:41 PM »
I met some catholics of a schismatic group from the RCC that were interested in orthodoxy but never joined and remained in this schismatic sort of vetero-catholic community that was liturgically traditionalist. One of them said that he had a hard time keeping track of the liturgy, I ve never understand that to be honest, unless the liturgy is in another language, it is not hard to keep track of whats going on in the divine liturgy.

Maybe they were of those types that make a radical distinction between eastern christianity of western christianity, and make this image of orthodoxy that you must be some sort of mystical guru in a nirvana state to understand the Divine Liturgy; I thought those types were more common in the convertitis section, but apparently they exist in the western side of the fence as well.

That is interesting. As I stated earlier, before leaving Catholicism, the only liturgy I had ever experienced was the Novus Ordo. Even then, when I first attended a Divine Liturgy at a Greek Orthodox Church, it was not wholly strange to me. There were some things I did not follow or understand, but in general I could follow it my first time. Therefore, after a few visits it was quite easy to follow, despite a majority of the parts being in Greek.

Additionally, a year later, when I returned home to Rome, I could hardly tolerate and sit through the Novus Ordo. I found an Eastern Rite parish, visited once, and felt almost a sigh of relief to see the Divine Liturgy again. I enjoyed it in English. On the flip side, during that time of attending the Eastern Rite Ukrainian church, I found an "independent Catholic Chapel." They swore they were not sedevacantists, but they were not united to the Bishop of the area, but to this Bishop in England I believe. Anyway, they had the Tridentine Mass and it was all in Latin. I definitely enjoyed the Mass and its piety, but I really struggled to follow in the Latin. Then I discovered the Novus Ordo church I was attending did the Tridentine Mass at 12:30 PM, so I tried attending numerous times and again, struggled with the Latin.

All this to say, I really enjoy the Western Rite in English and the Divine Liturgy in English. I feel more engaged.

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2018, 01:55:26 PM »
ENFP? Is that the "free spirit" personality?
Allegedly.  :laugh:
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2018, 08:00:28 PM »
... However, and I do like this, an Orthodox Priest told me that the being western, if he had a drive in either direction to an Eastern Orthodox or western Orthodox the most orthodox thing he could do, was go to the western Orthodox Church.

The only thing that slightly rubs me the wrong way about that statement is that it subtly hints that therefore westerners drawn to joining the Eastern church are making a somewhat "less" orthodox choice or are not being as authentic.

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2018, 09:04:11 PM »
... However, and I do like this, an Orthodox Priest told me that the being western, if he had a drive in either direction to an Eastern Orthodox or western Orthodox the most orthodox thing he could do, was go to the western Orthodox Church.

The only thing that slightly rubs me the wrong way about that statement is that it subtly hints that therefore westerners drawn to joining the Eastern church are making a somewhat "less" orthodox choice or are not being as authentic.

It was part of a larger conversation we were having if I remember around the schism and what eventually happened with the spread of the church here in the U.S. Primarily the Orthodox in Greece for example are Greek Orthodox, the Russians were primarily Russian Orthodox, etc. Therefore the conversation was more of a hypothetical too, such as what would have happened had the U.S. become what it was but there was no schism. Then we talked about which see or church would have primarily come this way. I am generalizing and paraphrasing, but this is where it really stemmed from. I believe the point he was making that in the west theoretically what would have been available would've been the Western Rite. He said having almost every see and rite available in the U.S. was somewhat of an anamoly and this is not normally how it was with the spread of Orthodoxy. 

Offline hecma925

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2018, 09:45:01 PM »
That's still not an argument, since it's in the realm of the theoretical.  Orthodoxy in the West spread, however imperfectly, organically through those Russians and Greeks.  We could do "what-ifs" all day long.  That's why OCnet exists.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2018, 11:13:53 PM »
That's still not an argument, since it's in the realm of the theoretical.  Orthodoxy in the West spread, however imperfectly, organically through those Russians and Greeks.  We could do "what-ifs" all day long.  That's why OCnet exists.

The point he was making was not that the most orthodox thing anyone living in the west could do was be western rite. He said it was the most orthodox thing he could do was be Western Rite. I understood his point to be in the grand scheme of the conversation was that the most Orthodox thing a Greek would do is be with the Greek Orthodox and the most Orthodox thing a Russian would do is be in the Russian Orthodox. He never said this is what they must do. His point was more this is how it normally happened. Quite honestly then, it appeared to me the most Orthodox thing an Italian from Italy would've naturally been was probably Western Rite (i.e Roman Catholic.) It is known the Orthodox spread to Italy as well, but those ethnics that spread there often stayed with their Rites.

I really think his ultimate point was that the multiple jurisdictions existing and sometimes competing in the U.S. can sometimes be quite an embarrassment to Orthodoxy and also maybe confusing to some too.  Overall thought, he has always been quite complimentary of the good that has also come out of the work the Orthodox have done and he said he has made it his life's mission now to establish and grow the Western Rite and I compliment his work for doing that and I am understanding and learning more now of why. 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:18:24 PM by noahzarc1 »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2018, 11:47:52 PM »
Another possible way to look at it: the rites of the Greek Church started out Palestinian Jewish Christian and evolved overtime into a Greek rite. The the rites of the Russian Church started out Greek and evolved over time into a Russian rite. The rites of the Latin Church started out Palestinian Jewish and Greek and evolved over time into a Latin rite. The rites of the Western European Churches started out Latin and evolved over time into English, Irish, German, French, etc. rites.

The rites of the American Churches started out Greek, Russian, Syrian, etc. so it makes sense that they will eventually evolve and coalesce into more distinctively American rites.
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2018, 12:25:34 AM »
... However, and I do like this, an Orthodox Priest told me that the being western, if he had a drive in either direction to an Eastern Orthodox or western Orthodox the most orthodox thing he could do, was go to the western Orthodox Church.

The only thing that slightly rubs me the wrong way about that statement is that it subtly hints that therefore westerners drawn to joining the Eastern church are making a somewhat "less" orthodox choice or are not being as authentic.

It was part of a larger conversation we were having if I remember around the schism and what eventually happened with the spread of the church here in the U.S. Primarily the Orthodox in Greece for example are Greek Orthodox, the Russians were primarily Russian Orthodox, etc. Therefore the conversation was more of a hypothetical too, such as what would have happened had the U.S. become what it was but there was no schism. Then we talked about which see or church would have primarily come this way. I am generalizing and paraphrasing, but this is where it really stemmed from. I believe the point he was making that in the west theoretically what would have been available would've been the Western Rite. He said having almost every see and rite available in the U.S. was somewhat of an anamoly and this is not normally how it was with the spread of Orthodoxy.

Ok I get it now, thanks for clarifying.  :)

Offline Agabus

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2018, 09:30:27 AM »
Another possible way to look at it: the rites of the Greek Church started out Palestinian Jewish Christian and evolved overtime into a Greek rite. The the rites of the Russian Church started out Greek and evolved over time into a Russian rite. The rites of the Latin Church started out Palestinian Jewish and Greek and evolved over time into a Latin rite. The rites of the Western European Churches started out Latin and evolved over time into English, Irish, German, French, etc. rites.

The rites of the American Churches started out Greek, Russian, Syrian, etc. so it makes sense that they will eventually evolve and coalesce into more distinctively American rites.

Add John Erickson's music to the (positive) quirks of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and you have the American Byzantine Rite.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 09:30:54 AM by Agabus »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2018, 01:30:08 PM »
Another possible way to look at it: the rites of the Greek Church started out Palestinian Jewish Christian and evolved overtime into a Greek rite. The the rites of the Russian Church started out Greek and evolved over time into a Russian rite. The rites of the Latin Church started out Palestinian Jewish and Greek and evolved over time into a Latin rite. The rites of the Western European Churches started out Latin and evolved over time into English, Irish, German, French, etc. rites.

The rites of the American Churches started out Greek, Russian, Syrian, etc. so it makes sense that they will eventually evolve and coalesce into more distinctively American rites.

Add John Erickson's music to the (positive) quirks of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and you have the American Byzantine Rite.

lol, I had to Google who that was. The first hits were the cowboy author.

I see who you really meant, now.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 01:30:30 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2018, 02:22:22 PM »
Another possible way to look at it: the rites of the Greek Church started out Palestinian Jewish Christian and evolved overtime into a Greek rite. The the rites of the Russian Church started out Greek and evolved over time into a Russian rite. The rites of the Latin Church started out Palestinian Jewish and Greek and evolved over time into a Latin rite. The rites of the Western European Churches started out Latin and evolved over time into English, Irish, German, French, etc. rites.

The rites of the American Churches started out Greek, Russian, Syrian, etc. so it makes sense that they will eventually evolve and coalesce into more distinctively American rites.

Add John Erickson's music to the (positive) quirks of the Antiochian Archdiocese, and you have the American Byzantine Rite.

I too had to look him up. In the process I came across this website. I only book marked it and will examine it later. https://orthodoxhistory.org

Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Understanding the Western Rite
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2018, 02:24:22 PM »
Another possible way to look at it: the rites of the Greek Church started out Palestinian Jewish Christian and evolved overtime into a Greek rite. The the rites of the Russian Church started out Greek and evolved over time into a Russian rite. The rites of the Latin Church started out Palestinian Jewish and Greek and evolved over time into a Latin rite. The rites of the Western European Churches started out Latin and evolved over time into English, Irish, German, French, etc. rites.

The rites of the American Churches started out Greek, Russian, Syrian, etc. so it makes sense that they will eventually evolve and coalesce into more distinctively American rites.

I've also had to be mindful of the fact the church is over 2,000 years old and the U.S. as a country is just barely over 200. Therefore, everything that happens in the U.S. is going to seem fairly recent in relation to the age of the Church and her history.