Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine  (Read 32425 times)

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #495 on: October 11, 2018, 09:55:45 AM »
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/10/1995-letter-bartholomew-alexey/

In which the Ecumenical Patriarch promises Moscow that the hierarchs of the UOC-EP in America will not contact schismatics in Ukraine nor advocate for Ukrainian autocephaly, which they proceeded to do unofficially for many years until now, with their activities now official and approved.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 10:04:35 AM by Antonis »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #496 on: October 11, 2018, 09:58:55 AM »
I highly recommend the above website as a source for this issue. I hope that the Great Church returns to her previous consistency on this matter.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 09:59:07 AM by Antonis »
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #497 on: October 11, 2018, 10:00:37 AM »
Even if the EP now recognizes the heads of the UAOC/KP not many else will. They will still be seen as schismatics by the majority of the Orthodox world.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #498 on: October 11, 2018, 10:23:30 AM »
They will likely be retired anyway once this all goes through.
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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #499 on: October 11, 2018, 11:22:07 AM »
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/10/1995-letter-bartholomew-alexey/

In which the Ecumenical Patriarch promises Moscow that the hierarchs of the UOC-EP in America will not contact schismatics in Ukraine nor advocate for Ukrainian autocephaly, which they proceeded to do unofficially for many years until now, with their activities now official and approved.

So. Many. Needless. Words.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #500 on: October 11, 2018, 01:37:10 PM »
Quote
Presided by His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Holy and Sacred Synod convened for its regular session from October 9 to 11, 2018, in order to examine and discuss items on its agenda.

The Holy Synod discussed in particular and at length the ecclesiastical matter of Ukraine, in the presence of His Excellency Archbishop Daniel of Pamphilon and His Grace Bishop Hilarion of Edmonton, Patriarchal Exarchs to Ukraine, and following extensive deliberations decreed:

1) To renew the decision already made that the Ecumenical Patriarchate proceed to the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine.

2) To reestablish, at this moment, the Stavropegion of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Kyiv, one of its many Stavropegia in Ukraine that existed there always.

3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

4) To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople.

5) To appeal to all sides involved that they avoid appropriation of Churches, Monasteries and other properties, as well as every other act of violence and retaliation, so that the peace and love of Christ may prevail.

At the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the 11th of October, 2018

From the Chief Secretariat of the Holy and Sacred Synod

Video of the above announcement is available on the EP Facebook page.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #501 on: October 11, 2018, 01:42:56 PM »
Quote
3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

1.  What autocephalous Church did the two aforementioned clerics and their followers belong to?

2.  What are the ranks to which they were restored?
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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #502 on: October 11, 2018, 01:51:32 PM »
Quote
3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

1.  What autocephalous Church did the two aforementioned clerics and their followers belong to?

Is there a Ukrainian version of Kitezh?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #503 on: October 11, 2018, 02:04:36 PM »
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/10/1995-letter-bartholomew-alexey/

In which the Ecumenical Patriarch promises Moscow that the hierarchs of the UOC-EP in America will not contact schismatics in Ukraine nor advocate for Ukrainian autocephaly, which they proceeded to do unofficially for many years until now, with their activities now official and approved.

So. Many. Needless. Words.
Antonis' or the Phanar's?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #504 on: October 11, 2018, 02:48:21 PM »
https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/10/1995-letter-bartholomew-alexey/

In which the Ecumenical Patriarch promises Moscow that the hierarchs of the UOC-EP in America will not contact schismatics in Ukraine nor advocate for Ukrainian autocephaly, which they proceeded to do unofficially for many years until now, with their activities now official and approved.

So. Many. Needless. Words.
Antonis' or the Phanar's?

The latter.  Antonis is my cutie pie.
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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline StanislavU

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #506 on: October 19, 2018, 08:53:26 AM »
Quote
3) To accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church.

1.  What autocephalous Church did the two aforementioned clerics and their followers belong to?

2.  What are the ranks to which they were restored?
1. Clearly,  MP.
2. Ambiguous. One opinion is that Filaret should now be "Metropolitan Emeritus of Kyiv". Makariy was a priest in MP, so...
This is academic. Healing of this schism, like most, would in any case involve accepting clerics as clerics (to the new church, EP, or MP). This is hardly unprecedented. In fact, didn't OCA accept a person in Canada as a "retired Archbishop", when he got this rank from a group in communion with UOCKP?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #507 on: October 19, 2018, 09:13:18 AM »
Do you know that back on September 28 Orthodoxia.info website published excerpts from what is supposed to be a transcript of the meeting discussed?
https://orthodoxia.info/news/%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B2-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3-%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0/

It was widely reported in Ukraine.
https://ukr.lb.ua/news/2018/09/28/408726_dialog_varfolomiya_i_kirila_shchodo.html
https://nv.ua/ukr/ukraine/events/povnij-rozbizhnist-opublikovana-stenohrama-perehovoriv-patriarkha-varfolomija-z-hlavoju-rpts-kirilom-pro-nadannja-avtokefaliji-ukrajinskoji-tserkvi-2497283.html

I have to say, if those transcripts are legitimate, nobody comes out looking particularly great, but the Russians look bad. For one thing, Patriarch Bartholomew confronts Met. Hilarion- "Why are you telling the media I got bribed by Poroshenko? Where's your proof?" Met. Hilarion's defense, if you could call it that, is, "Well, I didn't say Poroshenko did it... I'm just saying the schismatics didn't come here empty-handed." So he is still essentially telling Patriarch Bartholomew to his face that he was bribed, without any evidence. That's just shameful.

The part at the end where Patriarch Kirill says, "We need to help our Catholic brothers defend themselves against all these false accusations of abuse" is really disturbing and does not speak well of how the MP handles reports of abuse in its own ranks.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #508 on: October 19, 2018, 10:23:48 AM »
So just to recap according to the MP the KP, UAOC, and EP are schismatic.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #509 on: October 19, 2018, 10:48:48 AM »
Do you know that back on September 28 Orthodoxia.info website published excerpts from what is supposed to be a transcript of the meeting discussed?
https://orthodoxia.info/news/%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B2-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3-%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0/

It was widely reported in Ukraine.
https://ukr.lb.ua/news/2018/09/28/408726_dialog_varfolomiya_i_kirila_shchodo.html
https://nv.ua/ukr/ukraine/events/povnij-rozbizhnist-opublikovana-stenohrama-perehovoriv-patriarkha-varfolomija-z-hlavoju-rpts-kirilom-pro-nadannja-avtokefaliji-ukrajinskoji-tserkvi-2497283.html

I have to say, if those transcripts are legitimate, nobody comes out looking particularly great, but the Russians look bad. For one thing, Patriarch Bartholomew confronts Met. Hilarion- "Why are you telling the media I got bribed by Poroshenko? Where's your proof?" Met. Hilarion's defense, if you could call it that, is, "Well, I didn't say Poroshenko did it... I'm just saying the schismatics didn't come here empty-handed." So he is still essentially telling Patriarch Bartholomew to his face that he was bribed, without any evidence. That's just shameful.

The part at the end where Patriarch Kirill says, "We need to help our Catholic brothers defend themselves against all these false accusations of abuse" is really disturbing and does not speak well of how the MP handles reports of abuse in its own ranks.

I remember reading somewhere about Petro Poroshenko's promise of donating 25 million USD to Phanar, but retained 15 million to himself what created some problems between him and EP.

https://awfulavalanche.wordpress.com/2018/09/17/autocephalic-ukraine-and-the-big-ass-schism-part-iii/

This blog also has lot of intel about this quagmire, I just discover it, it is quite humorous in its tone.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #510 on: October 19, 2018, 11:56:36 AM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but this "intel" seems to be pure rumor. No leaked conversations, no emails or letters, nothing to prove that Patriarch Bartholomew is getting bribes from anyone. Sure, such things are plausible and provide an explanation, but that doesn't make them true. Maybe the MP does have something, but they don't want to reveal it because it would also prove they are spying on the EP. I don't know. But until something actually comes out, there is no reason to believe such rumors. I love Met. Hilarion as a theological writer but when he speaks with his DECR hat on and makes unsubstantiated accusations, he could be charitably called irresponsible.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

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Offline DanielBodnar

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #511 on: October 19, 2018, 02:31:02 PM »
Do you know that back on September 28 Orthodoxia.info website published excerpts from what is supposed to be a transcript of the meeting discussed?
https://orthodoxia.info/news/%D1%8D%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B2-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3-%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%8F-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0/

It was widely reported in Ukraine.
https://ukr.lb.ua/news/2018/09/28/408726_dialog_varfolomiya_i_kirila_shchodo.html
https://nv.ua/ukr/ukraine/events/povnij-rozbizhnist-opublikovana-stenohrama-perehovoriv-patriarkha-varfolomija-z-hlavoju-rpts-kirilom-pro-nadannja-avtokefaliji-ukrajinskoji-tserkvi-2497283.html

I have to say, if those transcripts are legitimate, nobody comes out looking particularly great, but the Russians look bad. For one thing, Patriarch Bartholomew confronts Met. Hilarion- "Why are you telling the media I got bribed by Poroshenko? Where's your proof?" Met. Hilarion's defense, if you could call it that, is, "Well, I didn't say Poroshenko did it... I'm just saying the schismatics didn't come here empty-handed." So he is still essentially telling Patriarch Bartholomew to his face that he was bribed, without any evidence. That's just shameful.

So, this "transcript" doesn't deserve any attention until it is proved to be authentic, right? How can one comment on what was said at the meeting of Patriarchs if this leakage may be for some extent forged? 

But as Iconodule rightfully noted, having revealed any proof that such intel is true, one will acknowledge himself guilty of spying on its counterpart.
If Orthodoxia.info posted what was really said, who might have leaked it?

For example, Russian Orthodox Christian author Sergey Hudiev writes: "But only few people took part in the talks at the Phanar and the source of the leak must be among these people. That is the leakage (if it did take place) could happen only with the consent of Patriarch Bartholomew."
https://www.greekherald.com/newsr/9097
Thus, supporters of Ukrainian autocephaly who have retold and cited the "intel" of Orthodoxia.info here and there as legit must be doing a disservice to Patriarch Bartholomew...

At that, Hudiev believes it's unlikely that Ecumenical Patriarch might bless something so dangerous for the EP's reputation as the leakage of confidential talks.

Anyway, this story speaks volume of the so-called Single Local Ukrainian Orthodox Church backers and the ecclesiastical situation in Ukraine.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 02:37:13 PM by DanielBodnar »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #512 on: October 19, 2018, 02:48:24 PM »
I'm not ruling out the possibility that the transcripts are fake, but in that case whoever made them did an excellent job. The nuances, phrasing, and arguments used seem pretty authentic to me. Metropolitan Hilarion did, however, publicly declare how schismatics bestowed "rich gifts" on the EP.

 And it's true, it would probably have to be someone very close to the Patriarch who would leak the talks. That certainly doesn't speak well of the EP's internal organization.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline DanielBodnar

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #513 on: October 19, 2018, 03:03:09 PM »
As to the bribery allegations, it was spoken a lot by the supporters of Ukrainian autocephaly on how uncanonically Ecumenical Patriarch Dionysius IV "sold" the Metropolis of Kyiv to Moscow and why Constantinople should claim back the jurisdiction over Ukraine.  So, there was a context for insinuations about Poroshenko's donation etc.

Of course, this can in no way justify unsubstantiated accusations by Metropolitan Hilarion, if they were made indeed.

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #514 on: October 19, 2018, 04:24:45 PM »
When we talk "bribery" let us not forget former Russian (Now Ukrainian) Oligarch Vadim Novinsky. Mr Novinsky is a Ukrainian citizenship holding billionaire of the Opposition Block (and formerly of the Party of Regions).  He is however Russian and a well connected Russian within Russia and Ukraine since the 1990s.

He is also a Russian Orthodox of the swivel eyed hard core type.  Mr Novinsky has openly mocked the Ukrainian effort to appeal to His All Holiness Bartholomew 1, the Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, to grant the KP and UAOC a Tomos.

Mr Novinsky regularly stokes the Orthodox fires in Ukraine and is also under investigation for allegedly falsely imprisoning and assaulting senior members of the Kyiv Patriarch clergy when it refused to play the part former President Yanukovych and others wanted it to. 

It has been rumored he bribed UAOC Met Macarius predesseor, met Mefodiy in 08 and 15 to not unite with Filaret. For more on the Moscow charlaten,https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/vadim-novinsky-ukraines-russian-oligarch.html

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #515 on: October 21, 2018, 01:34:30 PM »
Birth of a new Ukrainian church brings fears of violence

https://apnews.com/916f1eb16da24aedace5c39e9f13f94f

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Offline DanielBodnar

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #516 on: October 21, 2018, 02:24:51 PM »
Mr Novinsky regularly stokes the Orthodox fires in Ukraine and is also under investigation for allegedly falsely imprisoning and assaulting senior members of the Kyiv Patriarch clergy when it refused to play the part former President Yanukovych and others wanted it to. 

I suppose you meant to say "UOC (MP) clergy" instead of "the Kyiv Patriarch". Metropolitan Alexander Drabinko whom you might have in mind has never been in the UOC-KP. He is known for his support of the autocephaly now but he is still under Metropolitan Onufriy. He is quite an odious figure though, as I've read: https://www.irishsun.com/newsr/8840

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Patriarch Kirill in Constantinople to discuss Ukraine
« Reply #517 on: October 22, 2018, 09:47:01 AM »
Mr Novinsky regularly stokes the Orthodox fires in Ukraine and is also under investigation for allegedly falsely imprisoning and assaulting senior members of the Kyiv Patriarch clergy when it refused to play the part former President Yanukovych and others wanted it to. 

I suppose you meant to say "UOC (MP) clergy" instead of "the Kyiv Patriarch". Metropolitan Alexander Drabinko whom you might have in mind has never been in the UOC-KP. He is known for his support of the autocephaly now but he is still under Metropolitan Onufriy. He is quite an odious figure though, as I've read: https://www.irishsun.com/newsr/8840

No, I meant suppressing members of the KP clergy. Your story about Drabinko is interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if Drabinko does, "Swing that way". However, it is a well known fact there are a large percentage of Orthodox Hierarchs  across all jurisdictions that "bat for the other team."