Author Topic: I will stop pleasing men and may separate myself from the church as it is now  (Read 3094 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Hopefully I can pray for me.

I plan to go. I would like to attend your churches and experience other cultures worship in orthodoxy

« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 10:00:38 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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But I don’t know if certainly they need to repent because they may not be worthy of it but I don’t know I have to be safe

I mean they may not be worthy of punishment

Offline mikeforjesus

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to condemn orthodox for their beliefs is wrong of course because then children of such people will suffer. And if they are unworthy of condemnation it is wrong but anyway God alone knows if a person repented before they die. They don’t need to know the full truth anyway but wish to know it if they could be wrong though they worry about adopting heresy but they would wish Protestants were accepted if they have the truth which they are not convinced they have it and if they do not hate the light of God which is they don’t disagree about Jesus commandments and hate His commandments even if they are wary of Protestant teaching but they love Protestants to be saved. That’s why Jesus gave parable of Good Samaritan

those who do not despise sinners who may do something some people in the church think is wrong or what many priests think the church teaches is wrong I think will be saved. By think I am convinced it can’t be wrong  but I don’t want people to think I believe I can speak for God
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 01:04:21 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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They don’t need to know the full truth anyway but wish to know it if they could be wrong

They don’t need the full truth but if they did I mean they should wish to know it
So it is a heart issue but they don’t need the full truth if we don’t know it already.  But as for the truth which they need to be saved which I believe they believe what is needed for salvation already but if they are really good people if they were worried (and I think one should do so to be safe )and it was suggested to them they would ask God for the truth and to show them the truth and be open to seeking it if they don’t know the truth already.  And He would show or they will seek to find. But I believe they believe what is needed for salvation already.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 03:07:49 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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It is a difficult issue I have a long reply planned next
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:54:32 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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I thought I would think more on it lest I make many stumblings but it is not about the last reply being wrong
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 03:56:59 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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The"invisible church" thing is certainly appealing, I know that well. But I'm not sure it really works logically. I mean, what are the boundaries of it? Jehovah's Witnesses who say that Jesus is not God are not Christians even though they think they are, we can hopefully agree on that. Same for the United Pentecostals who are basically Sabellians, right?

But what about the Campbellite Church of Christ who claim that the Church somehow stopped existing from the death of St. John to their founding in the mid-19th Century (same for other "Great Apostasy" groups like the Seventh Day Adventists)? Can one really be a Christian while essentially calling Jesus a liar when He said that the gates of Hell would not triumph over His Church?

Anglicanism is founded on the belief that a king can just unilaterally split his country's church off and somehow maintain a separate living branch that doesn't have communion with any other. Lutheranism (and almost all other forms of Protestantism) is predicated on the idea that an individual believer (or at best an individual group of Elders) is capable of dividing off the Church for himself and continuing on as a single-congregation, or maybe even single-person, branch that doesn't have to be in communion with anybody else on Earth.

Oddly, it seems like the only Protestants who have an ecclesiology like that of the ancient Apostolic churches are the Landmark Baptists who think that they've got Apostolic Succession from Gnostics-who-were-really-totally-Baptists-all-along-we-swear-guys. And they would completely repudiate any kinship with Orthodoxy or Catholicism.


Seems to me that you're left with saying that either:

1. Ecclesiology is not an essential doctrine, which would seem to violate the Nicene Creed ("I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church").

2. Ecclesiology is essential, but the Church can somehow be One, Catholic, and Apostolic while containing all these completely different ideas of how to define what that actually means and in which few of its many members in absolute numbers (pretty much just the Lowest Church Protestants) are actually in communion with one another.

3. There's a "tier system" of essential doctrines in which being heretics on the Trinity or the Incarnation are enough to exclude JWs and Oneness Pentecostals, but having completely incompatible ecclesiologies is still somehow not enough to say that Campbellites, Methodists, and Orthodox are truly part of different churches.


I dunno, I wouldn't mind going back to a belief like that since it would make my life a lot easier, but at this point it all kind of strains my credulity to the breaking point. I think the most consistent option is for every Christian to just pick a pre-existing "true Church" and hope that all others join them in their choice (or that God would have mercy on them despite).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 04:32:04 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline recent convert

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Have you ever read this regarding your the non Orthodox?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx   
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Offline mikeforjesus

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The"invisible church" thing is certainly appealing, I know that well. But I'm not sure it really works logically. I mean, what are the boundaries of it? Jehovah's Witnesses who say that Jesus is not God are not Christians even though they think they are, we can hopefully agree on that. Same for the United Pentecostals who are basically Sabellians, right?

But what about the Campbellite Church of Christ who claim that the Church somehow stopped existing from the death of St. John to their founding in the mid-19th Century (same for other "Great Apostasy" groups like the Seventh Day Adventists)? Can one really be a Christian while essentially calling Jesus a liar when He said that the gates of Hell would not triumph over His Church?

Anglicanism is founded on the belief that a king can just unilaterally split his country's church off and somehow maintain a separate living branch that doesn't have communion with any other. Lutheranism (and almost all other forms of Protestantism) is predicated on the idea that an individual believer (or at best an individual group of Elders) is capable of dividing off the Church for himself and continuing on as a single-congregation, or maybe even single-person, branch that doesn't have to be in communion with anybody else on Earth.

Oddly, it seems like the only Protestants who have an ecclesiology like that of the ancient Apostolic churches are the Landmark Baptists who think that they've got Apostolic Succession from Gnostics-who-were-really-totally-Baptists-all-along-we-swear-guys. And they would completely repudiate any kinship with Orthodoxy or Catholicism.


Seems to me that you're left with saying that either:

1. Ecclesiology is not an essential doctrine, which would seem to violate the Nicene Creed ("I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church").


2. Ecclesiology is essential, but the Church can somehow be One, Catholic, and Apostolic while containing all these completely different ideas of how to define what that actually means and in which few of its many members in absolute numbers (pretty much just the Lowest Church Protestants) are actually in communion with one another.

3. There's a "tier system" of essential doctrines in which being heretics on the Trinity or the Incarnation are enough to exclude JWs and Oneness Pentecostals, but having completely incompatible ecclesiologies is still somehow not enough to say that Campbellites, Methodists, and Orthodox are truly part of different churches.


I dunno, I wouldn't mind going back to a belief like that since it would make my life a lot easier, but at this point it all kind of strains my credulity to the breaking point. I think the most consistent option is for every Christian to just pick a pre-existing "true Church" and hope that all others join them in their choice (or that God would have mercy on them despite).

Thank you however according to recent convert below they could be saved so we must not condemn those outside

Offline Volnutt

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It's not condemning them to acknowledge the fact that they're simply not in communion with one another and that it doesn't make sense for them to all be right at the same time.

All of us will be saved despite our bad theologies to one degree or another, but that doesn't mean that some theologies are not worse than others. We have to be faithful to the Truth and make our best efforts to find it and speak it in love.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Have you ever read this regarding your the non Orthodox?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx

Yes I have read I liked it very much but I unfortunately for some reason ignored it maybe because others don’t teach that even in the Eastern Orthodox Church I thought and the devil convinced me to worry about those who if they convert they may make their parents lost.
So I may have made many lost now by telling those who are convinced of orthodoxy they shouldn’t convert. But I will try to repent now.
I also was not ready to receive it because I was oriental orthodox and I thought they teach all Protestants can not be saved. But I may have assumed wrongly because my father of confession said pope Shenouda accepted Protestants though he probably meant as taught here

But does it mean Protestants who are ignorant because they don’t have the fullness will have less reward since they said they can not follow the beautitudes well. At least they are saved. Maybe they will not have less reward in heaven because they are ignorant and not convinced

But if their children convert and they don’t convert they have no excuse for ignorance anymore unless they truly are not convinced but if they are convinced I guess they must convert and we can leave judgement to God if they truly deserve excuse

But ignorance is not an excuse if one never even asks God and loves evil even if he does not search. But it may assume not all things are fair in this life which may be possible if one can die ignorant who would have received the truth if things were fair I don’t mean if things are perfect.

But the bible says those who die without law will perish without law

Therefore atleast no one should assume he will definitely be justified for being ignorant if that is even an acceptable excuse therefore he may not definitely excused from the law completely or at all  if that is even possible

Offline mikeforjesus

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I think it may be wrong to condemn those who leave the church atleast if they are not condemning it and just differ in opinion but you shouldn’t do it to be safe.
No one knows if they are with or without excuse.
It seems condemning it is very wrong because it may hinder people coming to church who should but I can not condemn. I leave it to those who know better if any. It may be worthy of condemnation but I have not thought about it much or know
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 11:32:25 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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Like I said, it's not condemnation to acknowledge the fact that something is wrong. It's just honesty.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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It's not condemning them to acknowledge the fact that they're simply not in communion with one another and that it doesn't make sense for them to all be right at the same time.

All of us will be saved despite our bad theologies to one degree or another, but that doesn't mean that some theologies are not worse than others. We have to be faithful to the Truth and make our best efforts to find it and speak it in love.

My reply to you above was given without as much thought but realise it was not deep enough when I replied to recent convert
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 11:40:22 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Like I said, it's not condemnation to acknowledge the fact that something is wrong. It's just honesty.

I agree. Thanks :)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 11:40:36 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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It's not condemning them to acknowledge the fact that they're simply not in communion with one another and that it doesn't make sense for them to all be right at the same time.

I agree

All of us will be saved despite our bad theologies to one degree or another, but that doesn't mean that some theologies are not worse than others. We have to be faithful to the Truth and make our best efforts to find it and speak it in love.

If all must make best effort to find it then it clarifies I was wrong to say ignorance could be forgiven if one did not seek the truth. But I thought everyone who seeks will find but I guess maybe they won’t if things are not fair in this life so kind of like invincible ignorance it would be then it seems
so I conclude therefore no one is excused not to seek for only God knows who will be excused for not finding
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 11:51:20 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Perhaps many people who leave the church like those who become Catholics or become Protestant do not leave knowing they are definitely leaving the truth but they think they found elsewhere
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 11:49:54 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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It's not condemning them to acknowledge the fact that they're simply not in communion with one another and that it doesn't make sense for them to all be right at the same time.

I agree

All of us will be saved despite our bad theologies to one degree or another, but that doesn't mean that some theologies are not worse than others. We have to be faithful to the Truth and make our best efforts to find it and speak it in love.

If all must make best effort to find it then it clarifies I was wrong to say ignorance could be forgiven if one did not seek the truth. But I thought everyone who seeks will find but I guess maybe they won’t if things are not fair in this life so kind of like invincible ignorance it would be then it seems
so I conclude therefore no one is excused not to seek for only God knows who will be excused for not finding

I don't think that any of us make 100% of the efforts we could have made at all times. It's just part of being weak and fallen. We have to rely on the grace of God to make up the difference and just try to do our best, knowing that we'll inevitably fail. This is why St. Theophan the Recluse's advice on this topic is so important.

Quote
You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.


"Sufficient for the day is its own evil," as the Lord Jesus said in a slightly different context.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:12:14 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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It's not condemning them to acknowledge the fact that they're simply not in communion with one another and that it doesn't make sense for them to all be right at the same time.

I agree

All of us will be saved despite our bad theologies to one degree or another, but that doesn't mean that some theologies are not worse than others. We have to be faithful to the Truth and make our best efforts to find it and speak it in love.

If all must make best effort to find it then it clarifies I was wrong to say ignorance could be forgiven if one did not seek the truth. But I thought everyone who seeks will find but I guess maybe they won’t if things are not fair in this life so kind of like invincible ignorance it would be then it seems
so I conclude therefore no one is excused not to seek for only God knows who will be excused for not finding

I don't think that any of us make 100% of the efforts we could have made at all times. It's just part of being weak and fallen. We have to rely on the grace of God to make up the difference and just try to do our best, knowing that we'll inevitably fail. This is why St. Theophan the Recluse's advice on this topic is so important.

Quote
You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.


"Sufficient for the day is its own evil," as the Lord Jesus said in a slightly different context.

Ok thanks for clarifying :)

Offline Volnutt

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No problem. I hope it's helped. :)


EDIT: I'll just add that I probably shouldn't have said "to make up the difference," since in truth all of our efforts are from God. But I hope you know what I meant.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:53:39 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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No problem. I hope it's helped. :)


EDIT: I'll just add that I probably shouldn't have said "to make up the difference," since in truth all of our efforts are from God. But I hope you know what I meant.

Ok thanks :) I haven’t thought about that part. It seems you mean no one can truly seek after God without His grace so you should not seperate efforts from grace

Offline mikeforjesus

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Have you ever read this regarding your the non Orthodox?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx

I also think the judgement contained may not be perfect unless which I suppose it could teach Catholics are not blamed unless they absolutely know their church is in error because they may be convinced of their church and not seen the truth definitely even those who seek the truth may not see it definitely as this article I believe agrees but some may truly believe their church so they would be saved even if they don’t seek but they may still seek even if they believe their church but orthodox make them doubt or curious but they must desire the truth so they are not like those who know the truth and reject it. If I have not perhaps answered perfectly in above paragraph and am stumbling block I hope to correct later

We must not stumble Catholics by accusing them perhaps of not wanting to join the church. Pride is a stumbling block and we should seek to accept them which I believe our church does

Perhaps the Catholic Church is the truth. They say also if I believe I must join

Perhaps the article from orthodoxinfo was shared because of my reply which I edited in which I said

If the Oriental Orthodox church or the Eastern Orthodox beliefs which I hope both are one even though popular opinion of the church today may differ but I worry some heresies have become church doctrine. If it is perfect it is the only bride even if other Christians are accepted through its beliefs. And I must subscribe to all its teachings and being among her if one did not believe in her he would not praise her and maybe not be ready to witness to those who ask about her so he is not wearing a wedding garment but being among her would make one think he is part of her which I guess many think they are of God even if they are not of the church even non Christians but the Lord would notice

However there may be no perfect church and the bride of Jesus may be all the saved who are trying to obey God so they would join the church if they thought it was the one if they do not God alone knows if they are excused for some reason.

I worried I offend other Christians but just because you are outside the true church if it exists does not necessarily mean you are not saved and will suffer loss

« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:33:46 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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No problem. I hope it's helped. :)


EDIT: I'll just add that I probably shouldn't have said "to make up the difference," since in truth all of our efforts are from God. But I hope you know what I meant.

Ok thanks :) I haven’t thought about that part. It seems you mean no one can truly seek after God without His grace so you should not seperate efforts from grace

Pretty much. Salvation is a gift.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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However there may be no perfect church and the bride of Jesus may be all the saved who are trying to obey God so they would join the church if they thought it was the one if they do not God alone knows if they are excused for some reason.


The article from orthodoxinfo I think explains well when they are excused

Offline mikeforjesus

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No problem. I hope it's helped. :)


EDIT: I'll just add that I probably shouldn't have said "to make up the difference," since in truth all of our efforts are from God. But I hope you know what I meant.

Ok thanks :) I haven’t thought about that part. It seems you mean no one can truly seek after God without His grace so you should not seperate efforts from grace

Pretty much. Salvation is a gift.

Thanks good to know I got it right :)

Offline Volnutt

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However there may be no perfect church and the bride of Jesus may be all the saved who are trying to obey God so they would join the church if they thought it was the one if they do not God alone knows if they are excused for some reason.


The article from orthodoxinfo I think explains well when they are excused

Yeah, it's a good article. It doesn't mean that there's no perfect Church, or that every group calling itself a church is as valid and good as any other, though. Just that there's no perfect people and that God sometimes works on all us by invisible and unknown means.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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However there may be no perfect church and the bride of Jesus may be all the saved who are trying to obey God so they would join the church if they thought it was the one if they do not God alone knows if they are excused for some reason.


The article from orthodoxinfo I think explains well when they are excused

Yeah, it's a good article. It doesn't mean that there's no perfect Church, or that every group calling itself a church is as valid and good as any other, though. Just that there's no perfect people and that God sometimes works on all us by invisible and unknown means.

Thanks I agree that I think there may be a perfect church

Offline mikeforjesus

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I believe I or we would be adding to Christ’s words to say we know some non Christians might be saved and it would be harmful because many would not even try and they already feel pressured not to convert because as Paul blasphemed the Son He still had to come to knowledge of the faith and that is why he said if I still pleased men where is the cross of Christ. I can not deny Jesus is the only way to heaven. I can not teach otherwise.
Paul says the time of ignorance is passed but now commands all men to repent for he will judge the world by Jesus Christ. But we may not know if they repent in 11th hour if it is excused if God gives them that chance because they may not think they had good  chance earlier.  Now that one can use that as an excuse not knowing if he got good chance

Offline mikeforjesus

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How much hope of salvation can we have ?

Correct me if you think I am wrong but I think one can currently have his name written in the book of life though it can be blotted out if one loses faith and knowledge

Jesus said to Zaccheus today salvation has come to this house. Those who truly received Christ and accepted the wedding invite have the changed heart to repent
So Jesus also says their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world just as Abraham believed and it was accounted unto him for righteousness and the works showed proof his faith was perfect

My dad says those who go to heaven found their name was already written before they overcame and proved they are saved

Jesus said He who believes in Me shall not taste death but has passed from death into life

But Jesus also says many are called but few are chosen because not everyone is really seeking to obey God’s plan of righteousness

Unfortunately however it does not mean I am saved and we must not strive to really enter by the narrow gate which is to really know Jesus so He gives power

Those who truly know Jesus truly love non Christians which may be difficult thinking one hinders their salvation
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 05:34:02 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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If we are true christians the same mercy we receive from God we would seek to give to other Christians. Therefore our beliefs must not hinder people from feeling loved.

Jesus said many are invited to the marriage supper but few are chosen

There are people outside the church which belong to God perhaps only Christians but only God knows who they are. Therefore we must love everyone for they may be part of the bride. Those who truly love the bride are those who think well of those who appear to be good and acknowledge them before men that they think them righteous and seem like true Christians. Also those who most appear Christian tend to love all people like non Christians truly without trying to tell them we accept another way than Christ to befriend them.

I may be wrong and some non Christians
may be saved but I am not sure of that. I am willing to be convinced but must not teach it for fear

I don’t have to be hateful to Muslims because I thought my dad thought I should be and I think I deserve Gods wrath then if I am wise in my own opinion.He may not hate them but I thought he did. He says he is not and that he had Muslim friends and there may be a reason to excuse him and give him no loss. However I could suffer great loss from my hate on judgement day if I may not be redeemed but I may be
I don’t have to accept all of them as worthy of heaven but that some may be which only God knows

We should love non Christians the same but not marry them. We don’t know which of them is good and will be saved if any if they do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit and if they will have a high reward if possible. But being unequally yoked could hinder their salvation perhaps or yours and your reward
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 06:31:51 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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1 Corinthians 7:39-40
39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment—and I think I also have the Spirit of God.

Offline mikeforjesus

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I don’t know how to befriend them if I judge them. I think I am supposed to figure it out silently so people don’t get put off by arrogance in boasting Christians can love others they want to see that before you talk about it

The first step being not doing it seeking to do so out of hypocrisy to be saved but truly not judge them as evil and love them and yet trust Jesus alone knows if they believed or called out to Him before death and if they did or didn’t whether they deserve salvation. We can not deny that people may have to accept and/or believe in Jesus

I regret perhaps judging non Christians because after death there is no more work. I will pity them for I was hoping if I was too judgemental God would not deprive them of chance for reward
I have to love them more yet not deny Jesus may be the only way to heaven even though I desire just to show I care for them by willing to accept next post views even though I won’t if it is not true or if I don’t know and fear it could not be true

As one saint I think said we will not be judged by our ascetic practices but whether we have fed the poor etc

Pope Shenouda teaches Christ must be our only aim therefore I think we will have time to befriend all types of people. I don’t know if ones aim may be Christ and yet still need some money
One of my non Christian friends said more people will listen to you if you successful. Pope Shenouda also said the children of God are successful and not to succeed can be a stumbling block to other Christians or the world perhaps he meant if one has talent and opportunity perhaps because it portrays Christianity as though it is against people working to make money to do good things however as Christ said those who fell among thorns are those who desire other things than the word of God makes them unfruitful especially the deceitfulness of riches but what if you think you must be successful not for yourself but for God not loving money ?
However I believe my desire for success is probably for my own ego to impress others and to make others respect me and force them to listen
But I guess I should only be successful to be able to make people not pity me which is why pope Shenouda says the children of God must be successful or they can be a stumbling block not that they are not saved but it may keep people from the path of Christianity for thinking it may not realistically be able to fulfil some needs or help people in the world.
We are not saved by giving money to poor but if we have true faith born again with new heart we would give to poor and not bury our talent. Not that we have to be rich but profitable servants so we should not neglect any talent completely because we don’t know which will give profit to God

However if we think the rich are more righteous then the poor St James rebukes those people saying they show partiality
The bible says not many noble will be saved because you have to be rich towards God and earn a honest living
Those who are poor may have had less opportunity to be rich and they may be poor in money but rich spiritually and able to serve God if they don’t need much success because they are gifted in many other others not having social deficiency not that I know that is important or not and simply being poor but not pitiable spiritually

Jesus explains His disciples are known by their fruit and love to others even non Christians I believe as the bible says honor all people love the brotherhood and live peaceably with all people as much as depends on you

Mark 4:18-19
18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful

« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 09:12:48 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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This seems to be the orthodox position of some. Well not really but I thought they may like the position

Jesus may be the only way to the Father but there may be salvation offered to some or many in the world to come

those who follow Jesus commandments may be saved in world to come more easily because we fear others won’t repent who do not

There is risk that even those who live according to Jesus but we’re not Christians will not be saved for not being as righteous as a follower of Christ or ability

Yet Jesus may still be the only way to the Father without second chances
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 09:13:41 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Jesus may be the only way to the Father but there may be salvation offered to some or many in the world to come

I mean only if things are not fair and if they are considered righteous or follow what light they can and have no excuse not to follow it
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 09:18:49 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Quote
As one saint I think said we will not be judged by our ascetic practices but whether we have fed the poor etc

Pope Shenouda teaches Christ must be our only aim therefore I think we will have time to befriend all types of people

I said that because if I wish to isolate ourself from people to read the bible and to pray and I may even seek riches to do so to buy a place to sit and do so away from others we are not doing Christ’s will who said I do not pray you should take them out of the world.

Offline mikeforjesus

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I think I may have to affirm they have to accept Jesus but not judge them as evil and only God can determine if they did reject Him till the end or if they deserve excuse which we not say we know they may be excused
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 09:40:35 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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When I say Jesus is the only way to the Father but they may be saved in the world to come
I mean for those who never rejected Him as God because they are not guilty of not wanting to know the truth or unwilling to seek (though they may not if they have doubts or others make it hard) though they did not follow Him. Those who are not sure of Jesus are even more unlikely to follow Him

However unfortunately there is no salvation after death. Jesus said enter by the narrow gate for many will seek to enter and not be able. And he who gains his life will lose it
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 09:55:45 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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I believe it is not for me to judge Christians who believe in heresy if they do not know it is wrong. They could or could not be saved or some of them. I am not sure if they are guilty of adding or taking away I believe I would be. I think some may be saved but I don’t know but we don’t know who but they do not help witness. Those who know the truth should join the full truth to be a greater witness. It is up to God to send labourers to witness
They have bible as witness.

I will say however that there is no fault in the gospel believed by some church fathers such as Jerome
or whoever believed Jesus is the only way and the traditional teaching of hell. I believe they are the true representatives of the church and who keep the tradition of the apostles and Jesus. The apostles never added their own words but they explained what Jesus taught. The Lords teachings are perfect.

He is not unjust in any of His judgements. He said we must not add or take away. So I could be guilty of taking away if I speak as an authority and do not speak wisely for Him even if I speak the truth  but it does not mean we can deny Jesus is the only way nor answer for God His fairness as an authority though one can say what he thinks. Perhaps some believe in prayer for the dead who did not get their chance but some think they are saved anyway without prayer for the dead

One must trust in His fairness to be saved.


« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:00:16 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Clement of Rome
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

Ignatius of Antioch
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).

“Fear and honor, praise and bless, thank and adore the Lord God Almighty, in Trinity and Unity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things. Do not put off any longer confessing all your sins, for death will soon come. Give and it will be given you; forgive and you will be forgiven. . . Blessed are they who die repentant, for they shall go to the Kingdom of Heaven! But woe to those who are not converted, for these children of the Devil will go with their father into everlasting fire. Be watchful, therefore. Shun evil, and persevere in well-doing until the end.” -Saint Francis of Assisi


St. Jerome (347-420): So that you will better appreciate the meaning of Our Lord’s words, and perceive more clearly how few the Elect are, note that Christ did not say that those who walked in the path to Heaven are few in number, but that there were few who found that narrow way. It is as though the Saviour intended to say: The path leading to Heaven is so narrow and so rough, so overgrown, so dark and difficult to discern, that there are many who never find it their whole life long. And those who do find it are constantly exposed to the danger of deviating from it, of mistaking their way, and unwittingly wandering away from it, because it is so irregular and overgrown. (Jerome: “Commentary on Matthew…Many begin well, but there are few who persevere. “Commentary on Matthew”


The Catholics would say the below but we can say the same. Can you show any place where we say the same ? Anyway I believe we can not judge any if they think they found the truth anywhere else but I can not say for sure and those who wish to condemn orthodox like balak tried to tell balaam knowing some may be saved are lost

“It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace.” -Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church

We shall find out at the day of judgment that the greater number of Christians who are lost were damned because they did not know their own religion. (Sermons of the Cure of Ars, page 99.)
St. John Marie Vianney (1786-1859)

Justin Martyr
No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).

St. Jerome says:
While you are still in this world, I beg of you to repent. Confess and give thanks to the Lord, for in this world only is he merciful. Here, He is able to be compassionate to the repentant, but because there He is judge, He is not merciful. Here, He is compassionate kindness; there, He is judge. Here, He reaches out His hand to the falling; there, He presides as judge (Homily on Psalm 105[106], quoted in Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Old Testament, Vol. VII, Craig A. Blaising and Carmen S. Hardin, eds. (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 2008) p. 51).
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:05:19 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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I believe people can have genuine grace but they were never good ground to bear fruit with patience My dad believes it is very hard for those who are saved to perish for what they know. They can walk out of the Fathers hand but it will be hard if they are truly saved.

Zaccheus was saved but if he turned away he would not have been saved. The Galatians who were bewitched were not saved but they had genuine grace. Because about Jesus sheep He says they shall never follow a stranger

We can all get saved and be good ground
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:21:39 AM by mikeforjesus »

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and those who wish to condemn orthodox like balak tried to tell balaam knowing some may be saved are lost

That is true but that is for all people. I had a long post where I deleted many things. I would have intended to delete that also

Offline mikeforjesus

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I thought to say this yesterday but I thought I would leave it to the next day if I should say more

Sorry to say but all who teach dangerous heresies may not be saved.It is not good to possibly lose some people to give peace to a household which does not built itself on the rock of Jesus teachings by teaching false things. But there is potential peace if there is a son of peace or atleast to the son of peace. Anyway they won’t care if they think they are following the truth.
Everyone has a responsibility to save himself. But one must not worry about others and let anyone hinder them from being saved.

When the gospel is preached in all the world it is just to witness the truth of those who have been teaching the truth it is not to cancel our job to teach the truth
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 08:50:08 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Unlike what Jerome may say or appears to say salvation is not supposed to be hard to find but as Jesus says He wants to give you living water but you have to ask. He said it is a fountain springing up into everlasting life. Not some words from Him which you have to continually work from yourself to get to be saved. But He saves you as it is written he who started a good work will complete it and He is the author and finisher of our faith. If we have been truly saved we will seek to hear the word of God and we will be living by every word of God to be alive not needing your efforts like those under the Old Testament but  a constant source of water for your heart to bear fruit
Many people perhaps have not yet had their heart prepared to receive it. It will always quench your thirst. Once you have it and have been saved you will be eager to read His word to do it. And that may be why Jesus said blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness which He attributes not to men but to God to bless them

My dad says I am trusting in works to find truth. Jesus said ask and you shall receive so He does not want to hide from us the way of salvation but we still have to seek it while it can be found. He said if you have to - to strive very hard to find it.
After death there is no more chance

I also see King David had great hope in salvation when he said he will dwell in the house of the Lord forever

However it is clear salvation is hard to find for people trusting in the wrong works to find it which may be myself
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 09:24:54 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Unfortunately I believe the above views may be partly inspired by devils
I read the book how satan deceives people by elder cleopa
he probably works through relatives even though unintentionally(he doesn’t say it in book but other fathers have said) to make you think you can delay salvation or think you don’t have to struggle
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 09:39:17 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Volnutt

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What do you mean by "delay salvation?" Just try not to sin, say your prayers, read the Bible, etc. I'm not sure what else you're looking for, to be honest.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.