Author Topic: Pope Reverses RC Catechism Teaching on Death Penalty (Traditionalist Reactions)  (Read 3466 times)

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Offline Wandile

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Twice since it’s dogmatisation...

Nope.
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/19/world/vatican-says-the-ban-on-women-as-priests-is-infallible-doctrine.html

Umm Cardinal Ratzinger, who  later became Pope Benedict XVI, stated that what Pope St John Paul affirmed in that apostolic letter represented infallible teaching, not by the pope invoking his own authority, but as the constant teaching of the world’s bishops exercising their ordinary magisterium, or teaching authority.

Which is preposterous. As I quoted earlier, Pope John Paul II wrote:

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We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

How does this not meet your definition of an act of papal infallibility?

Regarding papal infallibility only being used twice since its definition, I don't see how canonizations by the pope are not acts of papal infallibility, unless one is prepared to say the pope could get it wrong on who is a saint.

It’s on account that it was a simple but authoritative restatement of tradition as Cardinal Ratzinger said. It wasn’t a definition of a new dogma.

Canonizations are not infallible acts though some have claimed they are. I think it’s s real stretch even for the most ultramontane.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:25:23 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

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Offline Sharbel

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"I am the Tradition."
(Pope Pius IX. 1870)

"We declare, say, define and pronounce, that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
(Pope Boniface VIII 1302).

Sounds infallible, or not?
Infallibly pompous, yes.

How does this not meet your definition of an act of papal infallibility?
It depends on whom you ask.  The secular wingmen, nope.  The traditional wingmen, yep.  The faithful in between, what?

It’s on account that it was a simple but authoritative restatement of tradition as Cardinal Ratzinger said. It wasn’t a definition of a new dogma.
There is no such a thing as a new dogma.  All dogmatic statements by the Catholic Church merely affirm what she has always believed and taught.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 09:18:11 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Wandile

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There is such a thing as new dogma. Doctrines get raised to dogmatic status. New dogmas have always been believed because all dogmas are doctrines but not all doctrines are dogmas.

Making something dogma is when the church obliges the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith to a certain doctrine.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 10:13:04 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Opus118

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https://www.catholicfamilynews.org/blog/2018/8/3/popes-change-to-catechism-is-not-just-a-prudential-judgment-but-a-rejection-of-dogma

I found this article interesting.
I always find David Armstrong interesting. He has made a number of postings on this topic recently. I picked out this one:Burning Heretics, Frying Murderers, & Slavery (Analogies)http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2018/08/burning-heretics-frying-murderers-slavery-analogies.html
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Offline Halik

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This is a very interesting quote:

"Pope Francis breaks Catholic traditions whenever he wants, because he is “free from disordered attachments.” Our Church has indeed entered a new phase: with the advent of this first Jesuit pope, it is openly ruled by an individual rather than by the authority of Scripture alone or even its own dictates of tradition plus Scripture."

Fr. Thomas Rosica Zenit on July 31, 2018

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2018/08/member-of-francis-inner-circle-in.html

The full text of this article (including the quote above) by Fr. Rosica you can find here:
http://saltandlighttv.org/blogfeed/getpost.php?id=72516

I'm the Tradition comes into full play!  :) :o
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 05:05:33 AM by Halik »
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Offline Xavier

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"it is openly ruled by an individual rather than by the authority of Scripture alone or even its own dictates of tradition plus Scripture" - Fr. Rosica.

Spoken like a heretical modernist through and through, Fr. Rosica. What would Pope St. Pius X say to you?

Oath against Modernism: "I . . . . firmly embrace and accept each and every definition that has been set forth and declared by the unerring teaching authority of the Church, especially those principal truths which are directly opposed to the errors of this day ... Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely ... I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion ... I reject that method of judging and interpreting Sacred Scripture which, departing from the tradition of the Church, the analogy of faith, and the norms of the Apostolic See, embraces the misrepresentations of the rationalists and with no prudence or restraint adopts textual criticism as the one and supreme norm. Furthermore, I reject the opinion of those who hold that a professor lecturing or writing on a historico-theological subject should first put aside any preconceived opinion about the supernatural origin of Catholic tradition or about the divine promise of help to preserve all revealed truth forever ...

Finally, I declare that I am completely opposed to the error of the modernists who hold that there is nothing divine in sacred tradition ... I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles. The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way.

I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God."

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10moath.htm

If Fr. Rosica cannot sincerely take that oath, he is a modernist. This is what Vatican I decreed infallibly about the immutability of dogmatic Tradition, "3. If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema." https://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

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Offline Halik

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What would Pope St. Pius X say to you?

He is not relevant any more and the old ways aren't relevant, too. The current pontiff says:

"Pastoral ministry in a missionary key seeks to abandon the complacent attitude that says: “We have always done it this way. I invite everyone to be bold and creative in this task of rethinking the goals, structures, style and methods of evangelization in their respective communities. A proposal of goals without an adequate communal search for the means of achieving them will inevitably prove illusory.”

Pope Francis Evangelii Gaudium
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Offline Xavier

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http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2012/07/26/our-lady-of-quito-prophesied-that-in-the-60s-there-would-be-spiritual-catastrophe-in-the-church-then-through-the-faith-of-the-just-a-complete-restoration/

 “In this epoch, the Secular Clergy will be far removed from its ideal, because the priests will be careless in their sacred duties. Losing the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain ... “As for the Sacrament of Matrimony… it will be attacked and deeply profaned… The Catholic spirit will rapidly decay; the precious light of the Faith will gradually be extinguished… Added to this will be the effects of secular education, which will be one reason for the dearth of priestly and religious vocations.

“The Sacrament of Holy Orders will be ridiculed, oppressed, and despised… The Devil will try to persecute the ministers of the Lord in every possible way; he will labor with cruel and subtle astuteness to deviate them from the spirit of their vocation and will corrupt many of them. These depraved priests, who will scandalize the Christian people, will make the hatred of bad Catholics and the enemies of the Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church fall upon all priests ... “Further, in these unhappy times, there will be unbridled luxury, which will ensnare the rest into sin and conquer innumerable frivolous souls, who will be lost. Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, nor modesty in women. In this supreme moment of need of the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent ...

“Pray insistently without tiring and weep with bitter tears in the secrecy of your heart, imploring our Celestial Father that, for love of the Eucharistic Heart of my Most Holy Son and His Precious Blood shed with such generosity and by the profound bitterness and sufferings of His cruel Passion and Death, He might take pity on His ministers and quickly bring to an end those ominous times, sending to this Church the Prelate who will restore the spirit of Her priests ...

“ My Most Holy Son and I will love this favored son with a love of predilection, and we shall gift him with a rare capacity, humility of heart, docility to divine inspirations, the strength to defend the rights of the Church, and a tender and compassionate heart, so that, like another Christ, he will assist the great and the small, without despising the more unfortunate souls who ask him for light and counsel in their doubts and hardships. With divine suavity, he will guide the souls consecrated to the service of God in the cloisters, making light the yoke of the Lord, Who said, ‘My yoke is sweet, and my burden light ... the tepidity of all the souls consecrated to God in the priestly and religious state will delay the coming of this Prelate and Father.”
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Offline juliogb

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Tragically, by functioning as a doctrinal maverick, the pope offers to Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, and the entire world the spectacle of a papacy that confirms rather than denies the familiar anti-Catholic caricature of papal positivism and hyperultramontanism that reasonable and faithful people could do nothing other than reject.

From the article:
https://www.catholicfamilynews.org/blog/2018/8/3/popes-change-to-catechism-is-not-just-a-prudential-judgment-but-a-rejection-of-dogma



Offline Halik

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@Xavier

Ok. And why do you want somebody to convert to such a "spiritual catastrophe"? The church you are talking about simply doesn't exist anymore. Last night I re-read Friedrich Heiler's book "Catholicism", which was written in the 1930s. Heiler was a high-church lutheran with a strong modernist twist, who has had catholic tendencies but was highly critical about Roman Catholicism. What he describes as "Catholicism" really doesn't exist in reality on a parish level and in the whole church. This was an eye-opener!

IMHO you are talking about a fiction in the past. A paper church based on old books and documents. But not flesh and blood.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 08:17:05 AM by Halik »
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Offline PJ26

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“Canonizations are not infallible acts though some have claimed they are. I think it’s s real stretch even for the most ultramontane.”

From the New Catholic Encyclopedia:

“Is the pope infallible in issuing a decree of canonization? Most theologians answer in the affirmative. It is the opinion of St. Antoninus, Melchior Cano, Suarez, Bellarmine, Bañez, Vasquez, and, among the canonists, of Gonzales Tellez, Fagnanus, Schmalzgrüber, Barbosa, Reiffenstül, Covarruvias (Variar. resol., I, x, no 13), Albitius (De Inconstantiâ in fide, xi, no 205), Petra (Comm. in Const. Apost., I, in notes to Const. I, Alex., III, no 17 sqq.), Joannes a S. Thomâ (on II-II, Q. I, disp. 9, a. 2), Silvester (Summa, s.v. Canonizatio), Del Bene (De Officio Inquisit. II, dub. 253), and many others. In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

In the seminary we were taught that canonizations were part of the pope’s charism of infallibility.  Perhaps maintaining otherwise will give the Wandiles and Xaviers of the world an out once Pope Paul VI is canonized.

@Halik

If you sincerely believe what you wrote in your last post, which I assume you do, why remain in such a “spiritual catastrophe” and a “paper church?” Forgive me if that’s too personal a question.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 07:11:24 PM by PJ26 »

Offline Volnutt

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And if they are infallible, then what's the justification for deciding that it's ok to conclude that St. Christopher, et al. are likely fictitious and remove them from the calendar? The Canonization is infallible, but not its logical corollaries?
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And if they are infallible, then what's the justification for deciding that it's ok to conclude that St. Christopher, et al. are likely fictitious and remove them from the calendar? The Canonization is infallible, but not its logical corollaries?
For St. George, St. George was progressively downgraded down to the current optional memorial from a feast day.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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And if they are infallible, then what's the justification for deciding that it's ok to conclude that St. Christopher, et al. are likely fictitious and remove them from the calendar? The Canonization is infallible, but not its logical corollaries?

How many of these saints are actually considered fictitious?  Usually what I hear is that it’s much of the hagiography that’s being questioned, and not the saint.

In any case, the saints this applies to were never canonized the way RCs canonize saints today.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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And if they are infallible, then what's the justification for deciding that it's ok to conclude that St. Christopher, et al. are likely fictitious and remove them from the calendar? The Canonization is infallible, but not its logical corollaries?

In the case of St. Christopher, he remains on certain local calendars but was dropped from the general calendar. This is in part due to the fact that the post-Vatican II liturgy does not allow multiple observances on the same day. In the Roman calendar, July 25 is the feast of the Apostle James the Greater, and traditionally St. Christopher was a mere commemoration on that day. Once commemorations were not permitted from 1969/70 on, his liturgical observance was permanently impeded on the traditional date and was not moved. "Traditional" is a little relative, anyway, as he was only inscribed in the general calendar in 1550, though he had local veneration in some places for a good bit longer.

Anyway, the idea that canonizations are not infallible would have been virtually nonexistent before post-Vatican II popes began canonizing saints, and especially after Pope John Paul II reformed the process. Also, the few theologians who would not have supported the infallibility of the pope in canonization would be arguing something very specific – that the act of canonization is not an act of papal infallibility as defined by Vatican I. In other words, while the canonization is free from error, it is not a definition of faith and morals in the sense intended by Vatican I. I very sincerely doubt any approved pre-Vatican II Catholic theologian would have argued the Catholic Church could err in raising to the altars someone who is in fact damned or did not exist.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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And if they are infallible, then what's the justification for deciding that it's ok to conclude that St. Christopher, et al. are likely fictitious and remove them from the calendar? The Canonization is infallible, but not its logical corollaries?
For St. George, St. George was progressively downgraded down to the current optional memorial from a feast day.

He didn't really fall that far. Outside of places where he is a special patron, like England, his liturgical cult was not that great, despite being one of the Fourteen Holy Helpers; he's always been much more important in the East. He was only ranked a semidouble throughout the Middle Ages and on the Roman calendar until the 1950s and 1960s, when the rankings were reformed. The semidouble rank does not really correspond to anything in the modern "solemnity-feast-memorial" ranking; the semidouble rank was suppressed under Pius XII and all semidouble saints were made simples, and all semidouble Sundays were made doubles.
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Offline Volnutt

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And if they are infallible, then what's the justification for deciding that it's ok to conclude that St. Christopher, et al. are likely fictitious and remove them from the calendar? The Canonization is infallible, but not its logical corollaries?

How many of these saints are actually considered fictitious?  Usually what I hear is that it’s much of the hagiography that’s being questioned, and not the saint.

In any case, the saints this applies to were never canonized the way RCs canonize saints today.

Good question, actually. I'm not sure.

And if they are infallible, then what's the justification for deciding that it's ok to conclude that St. Christopher, et al. are likely fictitious and remove them from the calendar? The Canonization is infallible, but not its logical corollaries?

In the case of St. Christopher, he remains on certain local calendars but was dropped from the general calendar. This is in part due to the fact that the post-Vatican II liturgy does not allow multiple observances on the same day. In the Roman calendar, July 25 is the feast of the Apostle James the Greater, and traditionally St. Christopher was a mere commemoration on that day. Once commemorations were not permitted from 1969/70 on, his liturgical observance was permanently impeded on the traditional date and was not moved. "Traditional" is a little relative, anyway, as he was only inscribed in the general calendar in 1550, though he had local veneration in some places for a good bit longer.

Anyway, the idea that canonizations are not infallible would have been virtually nonexistent before post-Vatican II popes began canonizing saints, and especially after Pope John Paul II reformed the process. Also, the few theologians who would not have supported the infallibility of the pope in canonization would be arguing something very specific – that the act of canonization is not an act of papal infallibility as defined by Vatican I. In other words, while the canonization is free from error, it is not a definition of faith and morals in the sense intended by Vatican I. I very sincerely doubt any approved pre-Vatican II Catholic theologian would have argued the Catholic Church could err in raising to the altars someone who is in fact damned or did not exist.

Thanks for the clarifications.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 12:25:35 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Wandile

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“Canonizations are not infallible acts though some have claimed they are. I think it’s s real stretch even for the most ultramontane.”

From the New Catholic Encyclopedia:

“Is the pope infallible in issuing a decree of canonization? Most theologians answer in the affirmative. It is the opinion of St. Antoninus, Melchior Cano, Suarez, Bellarmine, Bañez, Vasquez, and, among the canonists, of Gonzales Tellez, Fagnanus, Schmalzgrüber, Barbosa, Reiffenstül, Covarruvias (Variar. resol., I, x, no 13), Albitius (De Inconstantiâ in fide, xi, no 205), Petra (Comm. in Const. Apost., I, in notes to Const. I, Alex., III, no 17 sqq.), Joannes a S. Thomâ (on II-II, Q. I, disp. 9, a. 2), Silvester (Summa, s.v. Canonizatio), Del Bene (De Officio Inquisit. II, dub. 253), and many others. In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

In the seminary we were taught that canonizations were part of the pope’s charism of infallibility.  Perhaps maintaining otherwise will give the Wandiles and Xaviers of the world an out once Pope Paul VI is canonized.

@Halik

If you sincerely believe what you wrote in your last post, which I assume you do, why remain in such a “spiritual catastrophe” and a “paper church?” Forgive me if that’s too personal a question.

I’ve seen theologians disagree over this. Nowhere in the catechism is this even taught or in Vatican I. I think the scandal alone of saints beings removed shows where Rome stands on the matter although most of those were pre-congregation to be fair. I wouldn’t  use seminary as the standard for what is de fide on the matter ,considering the state of seminaries theses days, and how what’s taught in one seminary might not be taught in another.

It really is nothing more but opinion but honestly I just don’t think they are infallible and I KNOW I’m far from alone in my communion who hold such a view. Paul VI’s canonization doesn’t bother me at all. If he received the three miracles and they are approved them he is in heaven, I’m not God after all. Only God can judge a soul.

Why am I catholic? To me that’s like asking why St Athanasius, St Jerome and St Hilary remained catholic despite almost the whole body of the church being rampant heretics. To me it’s the same just a different heresy. Modernism. This too shall pass. If the reason you are in a communion is based on how squeaky clean and peaceful it is then such a person would have left the first millennium church.

For me: I could never be Protestant for obvious reasons. I could never be atheist because I have met God on a few occasions when I was still a child and younger in very personal situations so I know he is there and is the  God I grew up believing in. I could never be EO as for me, I am completely and utterly convinced that they have changed their doctrines on the papacy, filioque and especially have contradicted Christ’s teaching regarding divorce and remarriage. For me such a thing is insurmountable. Never mind the other issues I have with EOy.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 02:38:37 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

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Offline WPM

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Offline PJ26

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Actually Wandile, my question:

“If you sincerely believe what you wrote in your last post, which I assume you do, why remain in such a “spiritual catastrophe” and a “paper church?” Forgive me if that’s too personal a question.”

was directed at Halik.  I’d like to know why he remains in what he considers to be a spiritual catastrophe and a paper church, again if it’s not too personal a question.

Offline Wandile

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Actually Wandile, my question:

“If you sincerely believe what you wrote in your last post, which I assume you do, why remain in such a “spiritual catastrophe” and a “paper church?” Forgive me if that’s too personal a question.”

was directed at Halik.  I’d like to know why he remains in what he considers to be a spiritual catastrophe and a paper church, again if it’s not too personal a question.

Lol oh I’m so sorry about that  ;D
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Volnutt

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I keep hearing the comparison to the Arian controversy. But I think there's a crucial difference between now and then.

The difference is that the RCC is no longer the only game in town.

St. Athanasius, et al. chose to ride out the Arian controversy the best they could (seeking out Nicene bishops where they could and avoiding apostate ones) because it was the only option available to them. If St. Athanasius thought he had the mandate to, I'm sure he would have started his own church like Luther. The fact that he didn't is itself an argument against Protestantism, but I digress.

Modern Trad Catholics, on the other hand, have the luxury of being able to escape the sinking Vatican ship completely for one of two (or three, depending on how Nestorian the Assyrians are) far saner and more consistent Apostolic options that have been doing fine on their own for almost a thousand years. Other than for sentimental reasons (which I can't judge you for), why even bother with the #resist game when you don't actually have to? It seems downright masochistic.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 07:21:29 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Halik

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was directed at Halik.  I’d like to know why he remains in what he considers to be a spiritual catastrophe and a paper church, again if it’s not too personal a question.

This was first of all directed to Xaviers post. IMHO the Catholic Church is in a serious crisis, but it's still the Church. So one has to be very careful before jumping ship. The mainstream of catholic thought and practice is indeed modernist at the moment and has lost contact to the real catholic tradition.

But what should I do? In germany orthodoxy is not really an alternative. A nationalistic "closed shop". Sorry folks, but I can't see there the one true church in reality too.

As I said before: I'm a western christian -for good or ill-. I don't want to become russian, greek, serbian or whatever to be orthodox. It's not easy. But in my area, there are few (too few) good parishes and I attend an Opus Dei meeting. So it is possible for me to remain Roman Catholic for the moment. But the future will tell ...

« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 07:29:19 AM by Halik »
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was directed at Halik.  I’d like to know why he remains in what he considers to be a spiritual catastrophe and a paper church, again if it’s not too personal a question.

This was first of all directed to Xaviers post. IMHO the Catholic Church is in a serious crisis, but it's still the Church. So one has to be very careful before jumping ship. The mainstream of catholic thought and practice is indeed modernist at the moment and has lost contact to the real catholic tradition.

But what should I do? In germany orthodoxy is not really an alternative. A nationalistic "closed shop". Sorry folks, but I can't see there the one true church in reality too.

As I said before: I'm a western christian -for good or ill-. I don't want to become russian, greek, serbian or whatever to be orthodox. It's not easy. But in my area, there are few (too few) good parishes and I attend an Opus Dei meeting. So it is possible for me to remain Roman Catholic for the moment. But the future will tell ...

Is it just the language barrier? In what sense would you have to "become Russian," etc?

I mean, I know it must suck feeling alienated from your culture in terms of your church, but think about how Chinese, Indian, etc. Catholic converts must have felt having to learn Latin and acclimate to a European Church 200 years ago.
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Is it just the language barrier? In what sense would you have to "become Russian," etc?

Language, of course. But there is no thing like a "german orthodoxy". The different orthodox parishes in my town have nothing to do with each other. The Russians, the Greeks, the Serbs etc. worship at different places in their own language. All belong to diffent bishops. Is this what the true church look like?

The whole congregations are completly ethnic. The Chinese may have used latin, but they were Chinese. I would hear the russian worship (f.e.) and would be among ethnic russians, so you can't compare it. It would be a complete alienation.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 08:34:44 AM by Halik »
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Is it just the language barrier? In what sense would you have to "become Russian," etc?

Language, of course. But there is no thing like a "german orthodoxy". The different orthodox parishes in my town have nothing to do with each other. The Russians, the Greeks, the Serbs etc. worship at different places in their own language. All belong to diffent bishops. Is this what the true church look like?

The whole congregations are completly ethnic. The Chinese may have used latin, but they were Chinese. I would hear the russian worship (f.e.) and would be among ethnic russians, so you can't compare it. It would be a complete alienation.

I am but an ignorant American, but I have to ask, has this not been an issue for every minority group in European countries, regardless of religious affiliation?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Is it just the language barrier? In what sense would you have to "become Russian," etc?

Language, of course. But there is no thing like a "german orthodoxy". The different orthodox parishes in my town have nothing to do with each other. The Russians, the Greeks, the Serbs etc. worship at different places in their own language. All belong to diffent bishops. Is this what the true church look like?

The whole congregations are completly ethnic. The Chinese may have used latin, but they were Chinese. I would hear the russian worship (f.e.) and would be among ethnic russians, so you can't compare it. It would be a complete alienation.

First of all, depends on what you mean by "Chinese." Second, having to switch to a language that's not even in the same family as yours and expect to follow along in something as intimate as worship is going to be a tad confusing, alienating, and even a little traumatic no matter how sensitive the translation process tries to be.

Third, how homogeneous is German Catholicism, really? Would an Italian or a Mexican (or a Chinese) Catholic living in Germany feel completely alienated? Would they feel welcome in your parish? Please understand, I'm not trying to minimize the difficulties, but try and put yourself in other people's shoes a little here.

Fourth, you're kind of forgetting about the Catholic sui iuris churches. Don't they have different bishops than the Latin ones in the same area?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 10:46:18 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline PJ26

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@ Halik

I’m very sorry that you find yourself in the difficult situation that you do.  However, and perhaps it’s just my perspective, but I don’t see how Orthodoxy in Germany being “a nationalistic closed shop,” while certainly unfortunate, shows that Orthodoxy is not the true Church.  If an Orthodox parish were to open up in your neighborhood that was not “a nationalistic closed shop” would that resolve your concerns? 

On the other hand, recognizing the fact that present day Catholicism is “modernist” having, as you say, “lost contact to the real catholic tradition” would, in fact, prove that Catholicism is not the true Church, certainly Catholicism in its present form, again from my point of view.

Do you believe that post-Vatican II Catholicism is the same religion as pre-Vatican II Catholicism?

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Do you believe that post-Vatican II Catholicism is the same religion as pre-Vatican II Catholicism?

Interesting question. I would answer with a clear "yes" and "no". I don't belong to such persons who say that the pre-conciliar church was better in every respect and represented the peak of catholic tradition. In no way. With the "nouvelle theologie" (Congar, Danielou, Bouyer etc.) there was a deep desire to return to the sources. In reality it did not happen.

If I take the Catechism of the Church and the magisterium before PF I would say "yes". This outline of the Catholic Faith is perfectly orthodox to me.

If I look at great parts of the academic theology, the believe of the average parishioner and the spiritual situation in germany I tend to say "no". But that's only my view from a western german perspective. When I talk to Catholics from Poland, the situation is totally different. The faith is much, much more stronger, traditional and vibrant there than in the western parts of europe.

So it's impossible for me as a single person to answer your question satisfactory.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 03:16:06 AM by Halik »
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Now, on the death penalty, Pope Benedict XVI said, "There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia", that sums up very well the difference between something intrinsically evil which is never licit, and things that depend on extrinsic circumstances, and could be justified if some conditions are met but are otherwise evil.

I have a question for our Orthodox friends on this subject - (1) Do Orthodox consider the use of the death penalty to be unlawful in principle (not in practice, in particular circumstances, which is fine) (2) Is this in principle impossibility (if the answer to the first question is yes) a dogma or a theological opinion, within Orthodoxy? I respect what Gabre said and admire his thinking on the subject, but can I inquire if that is the universal opinion in Orthodoxy? Or are there circumstances where death penalty could be fine, but perhaps such circumstances don't concretely exist in the modern world? If so, then by it's very nature, this would be a determination of prudence - to examine whether certain conditions are fulfilled or not - not a doctrine of Faith. Hence, why Pope Benedict XVI spoke of the "legitimate diversity of opinion".

If such is really the Orthodox view, then that would be very much in line with what many Catholic thinkers hold, and it would be quite all right to work for that. Catholics and Orthodox could even do that together.

The statement that the Church is going to work for the abolition of the death penalty in the modern world poses no problem - we know in fact that the Catholic Church also generally opposes all war in the modern world, even though in principle there is a right to resort to legitimate self-defense by just war. How could God command wars and the death penalty in Scripture if these things were always and in and of themselves unjust? So, clearly that opinion cannot be held. So, then, if the Church said at some future time to work for the abolition of all war in the modern or rather in the future world (and there is a prophesied time to come in Scripture when "they shall beat their swords into plowshares" (Isa 2:4), this too would be unproblematic. In fact, Pope John Paul II sent Cardinals to President Bush pleading with him not to go to war in Iraq, asking him to heed it only as "the appeal of a man of conscience enlightened by the Faith". And it would have been very good if he had. Not that war itself is always and necessarily unjust but that in fact often just war teaching is abused and many wars are unjust, as certainly Iraq was; and moreover in the modern world can lead to great destruction very quickly, and so all such prudential considerations of practical circumstances enter into the question. So in conclusion, imho, as long only as it is maintained there was a right to just war and the death penalty in principle, it is ok to say we are going to work for the complete abolition of these things given the state of the world today.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 07:22:23 AM by Xavier »
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There is the issue with immigrant churches, so to speak, and there are tons of orthodox parishes in the west, maybe all of them, that were founded initially by an immigrant community, so, that parish will be some sort of ethnic enclave for some generations, till the immigrants are integrated in the country they choose to live.

The same happened to latin-american catholics and protestants in the US, you may find RC parishes that are mexican, filipino or puerto-rican ethnic enclaves.

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Dear Halik, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, and I even agree with some of what you say. As for what Our Lady said in Quito about the 60s as mentioned in the Catholic Herald article, beside predicting the current crisis and the reason it came about, She also (just as at Fatima) promised to end it, and gave us the means for a complete restoration, which will come about at the proper time. So it is a message of hope more than despair, but only urges us to set a few things right first. The Oath against Modernism is a perfect bulwark handed down by Pope St. Pius X against all the errors of the present time and serious Catholics should take it daily, especially this part - "I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles. The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way. I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God."

What Fr. Rosica and some others are preparing for in Rome is very, very evil. Thank God even Lifesite and many conservative outlets rebelled when the initial interim document in the recent Synod on the Family was put out. Sr. Lucia said the devil's battle in these times will be on marriage and the family. Some people in Rome want the Catechism's words on other things to be changed too, and to create confusion among faithful Catholics everywhere.

A ship analogy was mentioned earlier, and what God really expects of us in these times is the fidelity of the son in the poem Casabianca, "The boy stood on the burning deck; when all but him had fled. The flame that lit the battle's wreck; shone round him over the dead". No just man will marry a wife when all is well then forsake her just like that when things get hard. How much less should we turn our back on the Bride of Christ in these temporary storms and trials.

We respect that Orthodox believe mostly correct doctrine, and about 98 or 99% the same as us, regarding the Eucharist, Mother Mary etc. But let's be realistic. If something very foolish happens in Rome, and millions leave the Church, most will lapse into agnosticism, no religion, atheism or the like. Very few will continue to practice; without faithful Shepherds, the flock of Christ will be shattered. Next year, they are talking about married Priests in their Sin-od; as in, Priests leaving and marrying, then coming back to ministry without any remorse and continuing like that, as already happens in some places. Worse things are coming soon, including another horrible and even worse change to the liturgy, after which everything will be clear. The Church is in a modernist crisis worse than the Arian one. For now, let us all try to find the most orthodox and traditional parish we can.

St. Athanasius never lost the Faith nor the supernatural hope that the Catholic Church would triumph over the Arian madness; so must we know by those same lights, that the Church will assuredly triumph over this modernist poison.

Let us strive to have the Father Frederick Faber to be found worthy to safely pass through it, "Faith of our Fathers! living still In spite of dungeon, fire, and sword: Oh, how our hearts beat high with joy Whene'er we hear that glorious word. Faith of our Fathers! Holy Faith! We will be true to thee till death." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_Our_Fathers_(hymn)
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Halik

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No just man will marry a wife when all is well then forsake her just like that when things get hard. How much less should we turn our back on the Bride of Christ in these temporary storms and trials.

Yes. Despite all serious problems it's still the Church of Christ. But: We have to be very watchful! Very true words by ABishop Fulton Sheen:

Quote
The Antichrist will not be so called; otherwise he would have no followers. He will not wear red tights, nor vomit sulphur, nor carry a trident nor wave an arrowed tail as Mephistopheles in Faust. This masquerade has helped the Devil convince men that he does not exist. When no man recognizes, the more power he exercises. God has defined Himself as “I am Who am,” and the Devil as “I am who am not.”

Nowhere in Sacred Scripture do we find warrant for the popular myth of the Devil as a buffoon who is dressed like the first “red.” Rather is he described as an angel fallen from heaven, as “the Prince of this world,” whose business it is to tell us that there is no other world. His logic is simple: if there is no heaven there is no hell; if there is no hell, then there is no sin; if there is no sin, then there is no judge, and if there is no judgment then evil is good and good is evil. But above all these descriptions, Our Lord tells us that he will be so much like Himself that he would deceive even the elect — and certainly no devil ever seen in picture books could deceive even the elect. How will he come in this new age to win followers to his religion?

The pre-Communist Russian belief is that he will come disguised as the Great Humanitarian; he will talk peace, prosperity and plenty not as means to lead us to God, but as ends in themselves. . . .

. . . The third temptation in which Satan asked Christ to adore him and all the kingdoms of the world would be His, will become the temptation to have a new religion without a Cross, a liturgy without a world to come, a religion to destroy a religion, or a politics which is a religion — one that renders unto Caesar even the things that are God’s.

In the midst of all his seeming love for humanity and his glib talk of freedom and equality, he will have one great secret which he will tell to no one: he will not believe in God. Because his religion will be brotherhood without the fatherhood of God, he will deceive even the elect. He will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ. . . .

Source: Fulton J. Sheen, Communism and the Conscience of the West (Bobbs-Merril Company, Indianapolis, 1948), pp. 22-25.
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Offline Iconodule

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It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ. . .

Pretty good description of the child predator syndicate centered in the Vatican.
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Offline Lepanto

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Do you believe that post-Vatican II Catholicism is the same religion as pre-Vatican II Catholicism?

Interesting question. I would answer with a clear "yes" and "no". I don't belong to such persons who say that the pre-conciliar church was better in every respect and represented the peak of catholic tradition. In no way. With the "nouvelle theologie" (Congar, Danielou, Bouyer etc.) there was a deep desire to return to the sources. In reality it did not happen.

If I take the Catechism of the Church and the magisterium before PF I would say "yes". This outline of the Catholic Faith is perfectly orthodox to me.

If I look at great parts of the academic theology, the believe of the average parishioner and the spiritual situation in germany I tend to say "no". But that's only my view from a western german perspective. When I talk to Catholics from Poland, the situation is totally different. The faith is much, much more stronger, traditional and vibrant there than in the western parts of europe.

So it's impossible for me as a single person to answer your question satisfactory.

@Halik:
Do not let PJ26 confuse you. Exactly what change did Vatican II make to the depositum fidei?
The answer is: None.
Yes, I know, things do not look very encouraging in Germany, I see it every single Sunday.
Sometimes it is so bad that I also wonder whether the grass might not be greener elsewhere.
But you should not even think about it.

We cannot afford to loose people like you to some ethnic Orthodox diaspora parish that does neither need you nor want you.
I cannot imagine that you can throw away your Western heritage and background like that and still hope to find peace.


una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Iconodule

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We cannot afford to loose people like you to some ethnic Orthodox diaspora parish that does neither need you nor want you.

Maybe they'll want him, maybe they won't, but the blind man kept crying out, "Son of David, have mercy on me!" even after the disciples told him to shut up. The Lord himself came and healed him. So it can be said with confidence that the Lord wants Halik, and Halik needs him.

Quote
I cannot imagine that you can throw away your Western heritage and background like that and still hope to find peace.

Complaining about "ethnic" parishes and then asking him to elevate "Western heritage" above the Gospel... that's what the kids call "epic fail".
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Online PorphyriosK

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@Halik:
Do not let PJ26 confuse you. Exactly what change did Vatican II make to the depositum fidei?
The answer is: None.


It taught that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and that they can be saved by following their own religion:

“But the plan of salvation also embraces those who acknowledge the Creator, and among these the Muslims are first; they profess to hold the faith of Abraham and along with us they worship the one merciful God who will judge mankind on the last day."

-Lumen Gentium

This is probably why recent popes seem to have no issue praying in mosques.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:04:28 AM by PorphyriosK »

Offline RaphaCam

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It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ. . .
Pretty good description of the child predator syndicate centered in the Vatican.
That was savage...
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Mor Ephrem

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It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ. . .
Pretty good description of the child predator syndicate centered in the Vatican.
That was savage...

Well, consider the subject matter.
Apparently, can smart . . has brain.

Yes, I do real Theology

I am the Antichrist LOL just kidding

Offline Ainnir

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We cannot afford to loose people like you to some ethnic Orthodox diaspora parish that does neither need you nor want you.
I cannot imagine that you can throw away your Western heritage and background like that and still hope to find peace.
But the RCC can afford to lose other people not like him?   :(

First, the Christian faith has Middle Eastern roots, so Western heritage is itself a divergence in that regard.  It's probably more authentic to our spiritual heritage to acquire a Middle Eastern mindset and branch out from there.  But that being said, I did struggle with what is basically an identity issue, and no throwing away is necessary--hand everything over to God, and He will show you what is good.  That's what transformation is all about.  :)  You are both keeping it all and surrendering it all.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:55:00 PM by Ainnir »
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Wandile

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@Halik:
Do not let PJ26 confuse you. Exactly what change did Vatican II make to the depositum fidei?
The answer is: None.


It taught that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and that they can be saved by following their own religion:

“But the plan of salvation also embraces those who acknowledge the Creator, and among these the Muslims are first; they profess to hold the faith of Abraham and along with us they worship the one merciful God who will judge mankind on the last day."

-Lumen Gentium

This is probably why recent popes seem to have no issue praying in mosques.

Lumen Gentium does not teach that Islam saves Muslims. It does teach that Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Muslims most certainly claim that. This is a matter which was not settled by the fathers. Some fathers and saints held Islam to be a Christian heresy who worshiped the same God as us, while others viewed them as pagans. Take your pick.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 02:06:31 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Sharbel

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Pretty good description of the child predator syndicate centered in the Vatican.
I think that I took exception with you before about a similar statement.  I apologize.  After the recent events involving the Catholic hierarchy, from predator priests, pedophile ring of priests and predator or covering bishops, through the nuncio, to the pope, who aided and abetted perversion by criminal action or criminal negligence or criminal omission, your statement does ring true.
Sanctus Deus
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Offline Sharbel

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There has been a cognitive dissonance in the Catholic Church since VII that the traditional faithful has to deal with, hopefully consciously.  Since one believes as one worships, when the Roman liturgy was crafted in laboratory by academics and Protestant consultants, Catholic worship leads to a simulacrum of the faith. 

The braver traditional faithful go out of their way to attend the Tridentine liturgy, but it is not the de facto liturgy of the Catholic Church.  The vast majority of the faithful is being formed by an artificial and Protestant liturgy, including the hierarchy.  No matter how many braver faithful there are, and their numbers are anemic and with indications of improving, they cannot change the path that the Roman Church is treading. 

They delude themselves with the falsehood of Roman impeccability and inerrancy, history notwithstanding, but that does not move their Church one inch away from the path of heresy. 

Much like other conservative movements, their greatest failure is inaction, believing that their higher fertility will make a difference, naively ignoring the fact that their children will be formed in a church centered around a liturgy that is contrary to their yearnings, many of whom eventually succumb to the reigning ethos, whether in the Catholic Church or in the world.
Sanctus Deus
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Offline Lepanto

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There has been a cognitive dissonance in the Catholic Church since VII that the traditional faithful has to deal with, hopefully consciously.  Since one believes as one worships, when the Roman liturgy was crafted in laboratory by academics and Protestant consultants, Catholic worship leads to a simulacrum of the faith. 

The braver traditional faithful go out of their way to attend the Tridentine liturgy, but it is not the de facto liturgy of the Catholic Church.  The vast majority of the faithful is being formed by an artificial and Protestant liturgy, including the hierarchy.  No matter how many braver faithful there are, and their numbers are anemic and with indications of improving, they cannot change the path that the Roman Church is treading. 

They delude themselves with the falsehood of Roman impeccability and inerrancy, history notwithstanding, but that does not move their Church one inch away from the path of heresy. 

Much like other conservative movements, their greatest failure is inaction, believing that their higher fertility will make a difference, naively ignoring the fact that their children will be formed in a church centered around a liturgy that is contrary to their yearnings, many of whom eventually succumb to the reigning ethos, whether in the Catholic Church or in the world.
Rather dark outlook.
But what else is there to do than try to stay true, avoid confusion and teach your children as much as you can? Don't you/ wouldn't you do the very same thing? Do you think your children will be immune to "reigning ethos"? Just because you no longer belong to the Catholic Church?
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus