Author Topic: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"  (Read 1240 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2018, 07:11:05 PM »
God, I do wish Pope Francis restored Peronism.

Why?  Without wanting to veer into Politics - if possible.  As a matter of fact I was under the impression that the Peronists recently lost power in Argentina after Kirchner was defeated in the election a few years back.   But I have no idea what Peronism is, what it stands for or how it is relevant to this religious discussion.
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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2018, 08:26:01 PM »
God, I do wish Pope Francis restored Peronism.
Why?  Without wanting to veer into Politics - if possible.  As a matter of fact I was under the impression that the Peronists recently lost power in Argentina after Kirchner was defeated in the election a few years back.   But I have no idea what Peronism is, what it stands for or how it is relevant to this religious discussion.
I was just joking since Porphyrios posted a link claiming Pope Francis was a Peronist.  :P  Peronism is Argentinian corporatism and it was such a contextual thing that it's hard to associate it with modern political movements although many want to claim his legacy (just like many claim the legacy of Vargas in Brazil).
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Offline Xavier

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2018, 08:34:15 PM »
Quote from: Platypus
Xavier, if you want I can show you quotes from saints explaining that
- the Rock was Peter's faith, or Christ, rather than Peter himself
- there are other successors of Peter besides the Bishop of Rome

Please do, that is the main issue here.

Quote from: Platypus
In all of his lengthy refutations of Donatism and his appeals for them to return to the Church, St. Augustine did not once suggest that they submit to the Bishop of Rome.

He did not? Are you sure? "You know what the Catholic Church is, and what that is cut off from the Vine; if there are any among you cautious, let them come; let them find life in the Root. Come, brethren, if you wish to be engrafted in the Vine: a grief it is when we see you lying thus cut off. Number the Bishops even from the very seat of Peter: and see every succession in that line of Fathers: that is the Rock against which the proud Gates of Hell prevail not." That is from Patrologia Latina 43.30.

Also, St. Optatus mentions it to the Donatists times without number,
Quote
"If you do not know this, learn. If you do know, blush. Ignorance cannot be attributed to you----it follows that you know.31 For one who knows, to err is sin. Those who do not know may sometimes be pardoned.32

You cannot then deny that you do know 33 that upon Peter first 34 in the City of Rome 35 was bestowed the Episcopal Cathedra,36 on which sat Peter, the Head of all the Apostles (for which reason he was called Cephas 37), |67 that, in this one Cathedra, unity should be preserved by all,38 lest the other Apostles might claim----each for himself----separate Cathedras, so that he who should set up a second Cathedra against the unique Cathedra 39 would already be a schismatic and a sinner. |68

Well then, on the one Cathedra, which is the first of the Endowments, Peter was the first to sit.40

III. The Succession of Bishops of Rome.

To Peter succeeded Linus, to Linus succeeded Clement, to Clement Anacletus, to Anacletus Evaristus, to Evaristus 41 Sixtus, to Sixtus Telesphorus, to Telesphorus Hyginus, to Hyginus Anacetus, to Anacetus Pius, to Pius Soter, to Soter Alexander, to Alexander Victor, to Victor Zephyrinus, to Zephyrinus Calixtus, to Calixtus Urban, to Urban Pontianus, to Pontianus Anterus, to Anterus Fabian, to Fabian Cornelius, to Cornelius Lucius, to Lucius Stephen, to Stephen Sixtus, to Sixtus Dionysius, to Dionysius Felix, to Felix Marcellinus, to Marcellinus Eusebius, to Eusebius Miltiades, to Miltiades Silvester, to Silvester Marcus, |69 to Marcus Julius, to Julius Liberius, to Liberius Damasus, to Damasus Siricius,42 who to-day is our colleague, with whom 'the whole world,' 43 through the intercourse of letters of peace,44 agrees with us in one bond of communion.45

Now do you show the origin of your Cathedra,46 you who wish to claim the Holy Church for yourselves!"

This work, Against the Donatists can be read in its full context here: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/optatus_02_book2.htm
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2018, 08:43:07 PM »
Saint Augustine did not once.
I'm done.

Offline platypus

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2018, 09:40:26 PM »
Quote from: Platypus
Xavier, if you want I can show you quotes from saints explaining that
- the Rock was Peter's faith, or Christ, rather than Peter himself
- there are other successors of Peter besides the Bishop of Rome

Please do, that is the main issue here.

Quote from: Platypus
In all of his lengthy refutations of Donatism and his appeals for them to return to the Church, St. Augustine did not once suggest that they submit to the Bishop of Rome.

He did not? Are you sure? "You know what the Catholic Church is, and what that is cut off from the Vine; if there are any among you cautious, let them come; let them find life in the Root. Come, brethren, if you wish to be engrafted in the Vine: a grief it is when we see you lying thus cut off. Number the Bishops even from the very seat of Peter: and see every succession in that line of Fathers: that is the Rock against which the proud Gates of Hell prevail not." That is from Patrologia Latina 43.30.

That's an interesting quote, and I'd be interested to read the full sermon, if you could point me towards an online copy. Nevertheless, we still haven't seen a quote where St. Augustine tells the Donatists to submit to the Bishop of Rome.

Since you like St. Augustine, we'll start with a quote from him:
Quote from: St. Augustine
For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and that in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Therefore, he says, You are Peter; and upon this Rock which you have confessed, upon this Rock which you have acknowledged, saying, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church; that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church. I will build you upon Myself, not Myself upon you.
2. For men who wished to be built upon men, said, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas, who is Peter. But others who did not wish to be built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, But I am of Christ.
The full sermon, which is all relevant, can be found here http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/160326.htm, and ought to be read for context. St. Augustine makes his interpretation of the passage quite clear, and he does not see Peter as the rock.

Of course a few of the Church fathers did see Peter as the rock, but still didn't make the argument that peter=rock=Bishop of Rome only=monarchial papacy. Pope St. Gregory tells us, referring to the See of Peter:

Quote from: Pope St. Gregory the Great
Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself.
For context, the whole letter can and should be read here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360207040.htm

Pope Gregory saw any see founded by Peter as being a See of Peter. In his count, there were three. I believe it was the See of Rome, Antioch (where Peter excercised his ministry in the Acts of the Apostles), and Alexandra; although he doesn't specify in this letter. This wasn't necessarily a majority opinion, as many other Church fathers saw all orthodox bishops as being successors to Peter.

If you need more quotes, I can provide. Probably not quickly, but I'll get to it.

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Offline Sharbel

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2018, 10:51:25 PM »
It's amazing this person got such a hot URL to store their madness. I wonder how many people disconsider Protestantism after finding this, and how probable it is that the webmaster has refused offers to sell the domain.
Given the traction that the Chick Tracts, methinks that it's exactly this kind of lunacy that is the lifeblood of Protestantism.

Never going to happen this way, the Orthodox Church cannot be defeated, the only way union is possible is if your church collapses on its fallacies, realize they were wrong all along and repent/revert back to orthodoxy.
Or rather, one Catholic at a time.  The other Orthodox converts that I bump into, about half were Catholics.

Your claim is no better than your clown masses, promoted directly by your popes.
It doesn't help that traditionalistic Catholics insist to refer to the Tridentine liturgy as if it were the norm.  In my Catholic diocese the Vetus Ordo mass has been celebrated only in the cathedral and, after over a decade, the number of regular attendants has not changed at all.  And this in a diocese where the bishop actually supports it and is not trying to throw all kinds of obstacles in the way of those priests who want to celebrate it.  Regrettably, the norm is the sort of Novus Ordo mass, but with clowns.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 11:05:57 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2018, 11:08:35 PM »
What He says is that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church built on Peter. And the Fathers interpret that Church as Rome. Either they have not prevailed, or Jesus Christ has deceived us. Here is how Constantinople spoke on the divine promises to Peter and Rome when it was still Catholic. https://www.fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html

1.  John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715) "The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren." (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)

2.  St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828) "Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles." (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).

3.  St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)Writing to Pope Leo III: "Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven."(Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

4. "For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High." (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)

5. St. Theodore of Constantinople Writing to Emperor Michael: "Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86) and "I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie." (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

I repeat, can you show me one single Father, even from Constantinople, who interprets the divine promise of any other Church, even that of Constantinople itself?

We're not interested in engaging in a "proof text war" with you concerning superlative flowery Hellenistic rhetoric of the Fathers.  We can come up with plenty of rhetoric to support our positions too.   
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 12:25:28 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2018, 11:20:14 PM »
Pope Francis is basically a Peronist politician.  This short article does a good job of explaining what that means:
https://onepeterfive.com/the-peron-rule/
I find it amazing how this charge is easily laid on PP FI, rather demonstrating the ignorance of political movements.  Peronism is fascism, according to Mussolini's definition: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."  Of course, the White House has followed the same creed since WWII, and so have virtually all political movements since then, including Peron, among many others.  However, it's utterly nonsensical to lay this charge against PP FI, short of trolling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=131&v=HIaI666yUYg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zaxwd1xFzw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPwfzqLg7m4
Yet, those blind to such sacrileges want to convince that theirs is the one, true church, as it these weren't evidence that it ain't and its leader is not the vicar of Christ.

This is another legitimate complaint with the Novus Ordo; I feel as though the Novus Ordo could probably be saved by addressing problems like that, and other issues, with rubrics, and that the lack of hard, strictly enforced rubrics, is the main problem (it also directly enables the Clown Masses and other abuses in extremis).
The propers of the Novus Ordo mass, covering from the entrance to the recessional hymns, are truly beautiful, but one would be hard pressed to have ever heard them all regularly in the same liturgy. 

A priest invited several parishioners and visitors for his farewell mass before he was transferred out of town and he chose to do the Novus Ordo by the book: ad Orientem, in Latin, propers, Gregorian chant, the whole nine yards.  It was not bad at all, but the general comments I heard afterwards were mostly of rejection.  It seems that the Catholic Church, from top to bottom, is taken by that fetid spirit that inspired Vatican II and lives on under its legacy.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 11:27:14 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2018, 12:24:09 AM »
Alpha, Both sides can very well pray for union every day in their own way, for the Churches to be united in the way determined by Christ. It could well be by 2033 if in response to the grace released there was real desire among Orthodox faithful for union with the Catholic Church, and serious doctrinal initiatives from Orthodox bishops to answer or reflect on the many doctrinal proofs of Catholic teaching already found in the texts of the Council of Florence and the First Vatican Council. If the Catholic Church had invented any of these dogmas in the 1500s or 1600s, She would not be able easily to show umpteen sources from earliest Tradition clearly teaching it. Let alone have the Word of Christ in Scripture, as interpreted by the Ecumenical Councils of even the first 500 years, and the testimony of the Church of orthodox Catholic Constantinople in the first millenium, supporting it.

Your whole approach from day 1 on this board has not been to dialogue with the Orthodox, but rather to attempt proselytization, something that your own Church has disavowed as a means of relating to the Eastern Church.  You lecture us concerning various "proofs" that you have assembled that in your view show that Rome is the true Church, while completely ignoring our very different approach to ecclesiology.  You assume that our ecclesiology is somehow underdeveloped and stunted, whereas in fact it is highly nuanced and sophisticated and has matured in a venerable tradition that you have seen fit to ignore.  You ignore the fact that the East and the West do not even start from the same vantage points when examining the Faith.  (In his work  Divided Christendom, Cardinal Congar opines that Western and Eastern Christians "....have become different men, unable to agree on the nature of our relationship with [God].")  I would thus characterise your means of relating to the Orthodox on this site as paternalistic and insulting.  (I am not personally insulted, but that is how I would define it.)

If you are truly interested in finding out how just how different Orthodox theology and ecclesiology are from their Western counterparts, you might wish to look into these books, among others:

The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossky.

His Broken Body: Understanding and Healing the Schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches by Laurent Cleenewerck

The Primacy of Peter edited by John Meyendorff

Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends and Doctrinal Themes by John Meyendorff

There are many other titles out there.  Why not try and understand us a bit instead of lecturing us about the "superior" nature of the Roman Church?  I'm seriously amazed by the tolerance various posters have shown you here up until now.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 12:28:23 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2018, 12:40:38 AM »
God, I do wish Pope Francis restored Peronism.
Why?  Without wanting to veer into Politics - if possible.  As a matter of fact I was under the impression that the Peronists recently lost power in Argentina after Kirchner was defeated in the election a few years back.   But I have no idea what Peronism is, what it stands for or how it is relevant to this religious discussion.
I was just joking since Porphyrios posted a link claiming Pope Francis was a Peronist.  :P  Peronism is Argentinian corporatism and it was such a contextual thing that it's hard to associate it with modern political movements although many want to claim his legacy (just like many claim the legacy of Vargas in Brazil).

Ah right, that is most amusing.  I suppose the Peronist comment may have been because before becoming Pope, Pope Francis had made some comments desiring a change of status regarding the Falklands or Malvinas as they are known in Argentina, and this was something that Christina Kirchner unsuccessfully pushed for as well?

Now, if memory serves, Peron, Evita, and the military junta did persecute Freemasons with violence in the manner of Franco and Salazar, which I am of course greatly opposed to even in the case of the Freemasons in amity with the Grand Orient de France, who unlike the Freemasons of the United Grand Lodge of England and lodges in amity with it, allow atheism and political discussion in the lodges (conversely, the York Rite of advanced Freemasonry, or rather the highest degree of it, the Knights Templar degrees, which follow the semi-advanced Cryptic Masonry and the intermediate Royal Arch degrees, require Christianity, but a Master Mason from the entry level Blue Lodge could also go down the Scottish Rite, which in one of its forms is said to feature the ceremonial trampling of a Papal tiara, which is too close to an Orthodox mitre for my comfort; in Sweden all Freemasons have to be Christians, but we are also talking about a country where Lutheranism was the state religion when Masonry appeared and was thus “assumed”). 

In the event, if the early Peronists and the Junta did persecute Freemasons, if Pope Francis was a Peronist or had Peronist sympathies, this would render moot the claim he was a Freemason (unless, a conspiracy theorist might pose, it was something sub rosa and sinister, in the manner of the infamous Propaganda Due lodge of Italian Freemasonry which was connected with the near-collapse of the Vatican Bank, and which was later prosecuted under Italian laws usually used for the Mafia, but which, at least officially, had been declared irregular, that is to say, subjected to the Masonic equivalent of anathematization, decades before the scandals of the late 1970s).

So I suppose there is ample material for the conspiracy theorist and the tinfoil-tiara wearing, marijuana smoking sedevacantist antipope of the Traditional Society of Rastafarian Coptic Tridentine Catholics of St. Bob Marley X to discuss after they celebrate a Groundation according to the Rastafarian Edition of the Tridentine Pontifical in their garage in Ohio or East Anglia.

Meanwhile for those of us in the real world I would, while rejecting Freemasonry outright, happily don a Forget-me-not flower in memory of Freemasons killed for their semi-religion*, secure in the knowledge that Pope Francis is likely not a Freemason and even more secure in the knowledge that he is not the Patriarch of any Orthodox Church and thus we are not subject to his occasional disconcerting statements.

*I do in fact suggest this, along with Armenian, Assyrian and Greek flags for the Turkish genocides of 1915, and an appropriate symbol such as a pin saying in Hebrew “Never Again” for the Holocaust, for use on appropriate national and international occasions for protesting genocides.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2018, 01:06:19 AM »
Freemasonry has a strange history in Latin America, Perón's revolt against it was pretty justified IMHO. I'm not sure what exactly motivated it, but in Brazil it was tightly associated with the vile oligarchic system that ruled us before Vargas came to power, so he didn't stutter to shut it down when he got to power.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2018, 02:19:00 AM »
I used the clown mass argument only in relation to xavier’s qoute, to demostrate him that his qoute have nothing to do with reality, specially since it is the very popes who push for novus ordo while preach/say all sorts of unchristian things.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 02:24:25 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2018, 08:43:24 AM »
So I suppose there is ample material for the conspiracy theorist and the tinfoil-tiara wearing, marijuana smoking sedevacantist antipope of the Traditional Society of Rastafarian Coptic Tridentine Catholics of St. Bob Marley X to discuss after they celebrate a Groundation according to the Rastafarian Edition of the Tridentine Pontifical in their garage in Ohio or East Anglia.

Dennis Miller, is that you?   ;D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 08:44:21 AM by PorphyriosK »

Offline Alpha60

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2018, 09:24:05 AM »
So I suppose there is ample material for the conspiracy theorist and the tinfoil-tiara wearing, marijuana smoking sedevacantist antipope of the Traditional Society of Rastafarian Coptic Tridentine Catholics of St. Bob Marley X to discuss after they celebrate a Groundation according to the Rastafarian Edition of the Tridentine Pontifical in their garage in Ohio or East Anglia.

Dennis Miller, is that you?   ;D

You mean that boring television personality who was on CNBC in 2004?
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Offline PorphyriosK

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2018, 10:01:48 AM »
You mean that boring television personality who was on CNBC in 2004?

Not sure about that.  The one I'm thinking of was the news man on Saturday Night Live in the 80's, and then the host of his own late night show in the 90's. 

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2018, 10:54:35 AM »
Quote from: St. Augustine, Patrologia Latina 43.30
"You know what the Catholic Church is, and what that is cut off from the Vine; if there are any among you cautious, let them come; let them find life in the Root. Come, brethren, if you wish to be engrafted in the Vine: a grief it is when we see you lying thus cut off. Number the Bishops even from the very seat of Peter: and see every succession in that line of Fathers: that is the Rock against which the proud Gates of Hell prevail not."

Quote from: Platypua
That's an interesting quote, and I'd be interested to read the full sermon, if you could point me towards an online copy. Nevertheless, we still haven't seen a quote where St. Augustine tells the Donatists to submit to the Bishop of Rome.

Well, sure it does. He tells them (1) they have to submit to the true Church and (2) the true Church is identified by the sucession of Fathers/Bishops in the Chair of Peter. He calls this the Rock on which the Church is built. This is the same argument made by St. Optatus against the Donatists. Would you like to address that? You probably know St. Jerome gave the same interpretation in a letter to St. Damasus, and St. Peter Chrysologus does likewise in urging the monk Eutyches to submit to the judgment of the Church in the 5th century. Otherwise, how are disputes to be resolved and schisms to end?

As for an online copy, I have not been able to find all of Migne's voluminous collection online, but you can find some of them at these sites: http://patristica.net/latina/and http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/25_10_MPL.html

Thanks for the citation from St. Augustine. We agree that Peter is called Rock from Christ the Rock, as a Christian is called Christian from Christ. Here, St. Augustine is addressing Christians, not Donatists as in the other work, and he reminds them where Peter's standing comes from. Thus shortly thereafter St. Augustine reminds Christians St. Peter was "holding the chief place in the Apostleship" in sermon 26 that you cited.

Similarly, when Jesus makes St. Peter a Shepherd after the Resurrection,  we do not say He is not Himself ceasing to be the Shepherd (Hence He says "Take care of My sheep", not "take care of your sheep), but is going to vicariously exercise His pastoral powers from heaven through Peter and the Church on earth. In a similar way, He gave St. Peter the chief place in the Apostleship, giving Him share vicariously in what was and remains His by right.

As for the second citation, we agree with it. You are right, it is indeed Rome, Alexandria and Antioch that are the trine sees that have a historical connection to St. Peter the Apostle. Long before Pope St. Gregory the Great, Pope St. Damasus had also explained this most ancient canonical taxis, which imo it would be good to restore in a re-unified Church. Here is the Pope. Note that even here the divine promise is applied principally to Rome.

Quote from: Council under Pope Damasus, decree #3, 382 A.D
"Although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the Holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: "You are Peter ...(Matt 16:18-19)." In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned Holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first See, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second See is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third See is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name "Christians" was first applied, as to a new people."

Will get back to the rest subsequently.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 11:03:29 AM by Xavier »
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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2018, 11:23:47 AM »
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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2018, 01:30:21 PM »
I used the clown mass argument only in relation to xavier’s qoute, to demostrate him that his qoute have nothing to do with reality, specially since it is the very popes who push for novus ordo while preach/say all sorts of unchristian things.

So, you used it poorly.
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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2018, 08:16:00 PM »
Quote from: St. Augustine, Patrologia Latina 43.30
"You know what the Catholic Church is, and what that is cut off from the Vine; if there are any among you cautious, let them come; let them find life in the Root. Come, brethren, if you wish to be engrafted in the Vine: a grief it is when we see you lying thus cut off. Number the Bishops even from the very seat of Peter: and see every succession in that line of Fathers: that is the Rock against which the proud Gates of Hell prevail not."

Quote from: Platypus
That's an interesting quote, and I'd be interested to read the full sermon, if you could point me towards an online copy. Nevertheless, we still haven't seen a quote where St. Augustine tells the Donatists to submit to the Bishop of Rome.

Well, sure it does. He tells them (1) they have to submit to the true Church and (2) the true Church is identified by the sucession of Fathers/Bishops in the Chair of Peter. He calls this the Rock on which the Church is built.
There is no mention in this quote of submission to the Bishop of Rome. Without seeing it in context, I'm very hesitant to assume that's what St. Augustine meant. This is a very short quote, and taken out of context I'm unsure if he meant either of your interpretations. I lack the time and Latin fluency to read and understand the article you linked to, so I can't really comment on it.

This is the same argument made by St. Optatus against the Donatists. Would you like to address that?

I didn't see anything to address in the St. Optatus quote. But while we're addressing things, care to share how you studied freemasonry?

You probably know St. Jerome gave the same interpretation in a letter to St. Damasus, and St. Peter Chrysologus does likewise in urging the monk Eutyches to submit to the judgment of the Church in the 5th century. Otherwise, how are disputes to be resolved and schisms to end?

Submission to the judgement of the Church is crucial for the prevention of schisms. I encourage you to join the Orthodox in our submission to the Church.

Thanks for the citation from St. Augustine. We agree that Peter is called Rock from Christ the Rock, as a Christian is called Christian from Christ. Here, St. Augustine is addressing Christians, not Donatists as in the other work, and he reminds them where Peter's standing comes from. Thus shortly thereafter St. Augustine reminds Christians St. Peter was "holding the chief place in the Apostleship" in sermon 26 that you cited.

Similarly, when Jesus makes St. Peter a Shepherd after the Resurrection,  we do not say He is not Himself ceasing to be the Shepherd (Hence He says "Take care of My sheep", not "take care of your sheep), but is going to vicariously exercise His pastoral powers from heaven through Peter and the Church on earth. In a similar way, He gave St. Peter the chief place in the Apostleship, giving Him share vicariously in what was and remains His by right.

As for the second citation, we agree with it. You are right, it is indeed Rome, Alexandria and Antioch that are the trine sees that have a historical connection to St. Peter the Apostle. Long before Pope St. Gregory the Great, Pope St. Damasus had also explained this most ancient canonical taxis, which imo it would be good to restore in a re-unified Church. Here is the Pope. Note that even here the divine promise is applied principally to Rome.

Quote from: Council under Pope Damasus, decree #3, 382 A.D
"Although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the Holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: "You are Peter ...(Matt 16:18-19)." In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned Holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first See, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second See is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third See is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name "Christians" was first applied, as to a new people."

Will get back to the rest subsequently.

No disagreements here.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: "Pope Francis helps SSPX in its plans for new headquarters in Rome"
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2018, 10:39:17 PM »
Since Rome, if defined according to the definitions provided by Xavier, is apparently in apostasy,  it would seem the Petrine office is jointly held by the Greek and Coptic Popes of Alexandria.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 10:40:25 PM by Alpha60 »
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