Author Topic: The Athanasium or Quicumque Vult (Denzinger 75) as historical re-union formula.  (Read 777 times)

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Offline Xavier

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1. The great glory of Alexandria, the Doctor specially loved by the Holy Trinity to Whom he was most devoted, the lifelong opponent of Arians, Macedonians, Sabellians and of every other sect of heretics that blasphemed the Holy Trininity, St. Athanasius was persecuted even in the Church and exiled while Arians were dominant. He found refuge in Rome, to whom it was said, You support Athanasius contra mundum (against the world). Especially Pope St. Sylvester and Pope St. Julius were devout patrons of St. Athanasius. And St. Athanasius in turn always deferred to the judgment and authority of the Holy Roman Church, as for e.g. in the canons of the Synod of Sardica he presided over, which call the Successsor in the See of Peter the head of the Christian priesthood, and recognize him to have a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction to whom any wrongly judged or aggrieved bishop can appeal. For those interested in studying the matter further, see also St. Athanasius, Arianism, and the Holy See http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num51.htm

"...to the head , that is to the See of Peter the Apostle, the bishops of the Lord shall refer from all provinces..." (orthodox Catholic bishops to Pope Julius I, Council of Sardica, c. 343 AD)[Latin: Hoc enim optimum et valde congruentissimum esse videbitur, si ad caput, id est ad Petri apostoli sedem, de singulis quibusque provinciis Domini referant sacerdotes, Edward Giles Documents page 105, In Hilary Frag 2, PL 10:639]

2. St. Athanasius also handed down to the Church of Rome a dogmatic confession of Catholic Faith, an incredibly strong bulwark against all heresies of all time, in relation to the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of the Word. None could have written so elevated a professio fidei save one who so dearly loved the Holy Trinity more than his own life, and had been signally chosen by Him and specially chosen for the task. When the Council of Florence proposed it, saying, "we offer to the envoys that compendious rule of the faith composed by most blessed Athanasius, which is as follows: Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the Catholic Faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally. The Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance ..." nobody objected, "but hey, it was really St. Ambrose ... maybe St. Augustine ... maybe St. Vincent of Lerins ... maybe we just don't know" because the whole Church knew St. Athanasius had composed that saving rule of Catholic Faith. St. Caesarius handed it down long ago, just as earlier Fathers hand down the 12 articles of the Apostles' Creed, which liberals and modernists also deny were composed by the 12 Apostles on the Day of Pentecost and handed down from them, as Tradition teaches.

3. Before the Protestant deformation of the 16th and 17th centuries, and the liberal disenlightenment of the 18th and 19th centuries, then, hardly anyone cast dou

Questions: 1. Do you believe St. Athanasius wrote this profession of Faith? If so, do you agree with all that it teaches?
2. If St. Athanasius didn't write it, who did? St. Augustine? St. Vincent? St. Ambrose? Anybody else whom liberals decide to try next? All these theories collapse and cannot be sustained. Christian ages knew very well and never doubted that St. Athanasius made this outstanding and stellar profession of Catholic Faith in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.
3. To Syrian Orthodox, how do you understand the portion related to the hypostatic union of two natures, from two nativities, in the One Person of the Incarnate Word? To Greek Orthodox, how do you understand the portion related to the hypostatic differences between the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, where the Catholic doctrine on the Procession of the Holy Ghost is explained?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 04:29:23 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Vanhyo

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Questions: 1. Do you believe St. Athanasius wrote this profession of Faith? If so, do you agree with all that it teaches?
Whenever papal apologist start to pull quotes from somewhere i am always suspicious.



Offline Xavier

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1. Even a cursory read will show only a great Doctor could have authored it. Liberal critics believe it is not possible St. Athanasius could have been so supernaturally enlightened as to pre-emptively condemn Nestorianism and other heresies. According to their modernist approach and naturalistic thinking, that is not possible. Yet in fact many including St. Cyril, St. Celestine and St. Leo who was then among the Roman clergy knew instantly that Nestorius had invented a novelty when he claimed God had not a true Mother. It is heresies that are novel, the true Catholic Faith is always the same.

In the same way, the Fathers tell us the Synoptic Gospels were authored and widely distributed by the time St. Paul wrote 1 and 2 Corinthians, around 52 and 53 A.D. St. Paul makes reference to St. Luke's Gospel there and speaks of it as already having been widely distributed. But liberal scholars exclude supernatural prophesy, see that Christ the Lord so perfectly predicted the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and then, to avoid becoming Christian, claim the Gospels were written after 70 A.D. and "anonymously". Recently however even liberal scholars have begun to question and castigate this false and presumptuous methodology. A.T. Robinson, in Redating the New Testament, shows all 3 Synoptics were certainly written between A.D. 40 and no later than A.D. 60 and by the Apostles and Evangelists whose names they bear. He spoke against "the tyranny of unexamined assumptions". Liberal scholars normally proceed from naturalistic assumptions and do not generally give them up easily.

2. It's almost incredible how one simple and short profession of Catholic Faith can exclude so many and really all heresies relating to the Trinity and the Incarnation. Another mark of divine origin, through holy Doctors. The Athanasium also teaches holding the orthodox Catholic Faith on the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation is necessary for salvation.

"The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is from the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son; not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. And in this Trinity nothing is before or after, nothing is greater or less; but the whole three persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as has been said above, the unity in Trinity and the Trinity in unity is to be worshipped. Whoever, therefore, wishes to be saved, let him think thus of the Trinity.

It is also necessary for salvation to believe faithfully the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith, therefore, is that we believe and confess that Our Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the ages; and man, of the substance of His Mother, born in the world. Perfect God, perfect Man, subsisting of a rational soul and human flesh. Equal to the Father according to his Godhead, less than the Father according to his humanity. Although he is God and man, he is not two, but one Christ. One, however, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the taking of humanity into God. One altogether, not by confusion of Substance, but by Unity of Person. For as a reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ."
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 07:59:35 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Vanhyo

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Nowhere in the bible it says “you should know them by their quotes”

I do not know the authenticity of your qoute but i can see the fruits of your church, and it is manifestly obvious that you are trying to sell us something fake and the only payment you ask for is our souls.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Two things:

1. Just because a council of the Church named Rome as a final arbitrator of decisions, doesn't necessarily mean that this is a recognition of a dogmatic belief that God has named Rome the divine arbitrator of decisions till the end of the world. This is clear when you see that Chalcedon in its canons actually named, with the union of the Bishops of the world, Constantinople as the final arbitrator of disputes. And in Saint Leo's oppositions to Chalcedon, this wasn't one of them - and it's not as if Rome ignored Chalcedon nonetheless.

2. The so called Athanasian Creed has no history whatsoever in Eastern Christendom, and only exists in Latin. This should already create suspicion, but it's a possibility that perhaps Saint Germanus of Paris or one of his disciples penned it. It's very unlikely that it was written by Saint Athanasius.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 08:36:12 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Rohzek

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Only an ignoramus would believe Athanasius wrote the creed. There are literally no copies of it in Greek from an early period, it exhibits a Latin composition in style, and it has - as per historical record - only ever been used in the Latin churches from the earlier centuries. You keep railing against "liberals" and "modernists" because they prove inconvenient for your particular denomination. Well, I'm not shedding a tear. And every time you say they are wrong, you've yet to engage with the historical arguments that they make. The only thing you've said is, "But it is too amazing not to have been written by Athanasius." That argument is the stupidest thing I've read in months. Do you know how many forgeries were passed off as either Augustine or Ambrose successfully for centuries on end? No one doubts this now. Yet you doubt such arguments when it comes to this creed, because the creed makes things easier for you. These threads are increasingly becoming an act of masturbation on your part. Dialogue is so limited because anything that doesn't agree with you must be "liberal" or "modernist." Your sources are hardly original, but pulled from quote mines. Do yourself a favor, unplug your internet, find a book store, find a copy of some work written by one of the Church Fathers - doesn't matter which one - buy it, read it, and then sit back in wonderment on what it is like NOT to read just 2-5 lines of a work on a dimwitted and illiterate apologetic website.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 09:53:17 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Iconodule

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Do yourself a favor, unplug your internet, find a book store, find a copy of some work written by one of the Church Fathers - doesn't matter which one - buy it, read it, and then sit back in wonderment on what it is like NOT to read just 2-5 lines of a work on a dimwitted and illiterate apologetic website.

Yes.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline Xavier

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Haha. Your petty insults do not trouble me - you seem to be unaware that before about 1642 when a modernist Protestant published a theory arguing against it, the whole Christian world unanimously attributed it to St. Athanasius. Or maybe you're just indifferent to that, like when you argued we're not only free to reject the flood of Noah as a myth, but almost bound to do so. Even Patriarchs of the East have ascribed the Creed to St. Athanasius and treated it with veneration, and contrary to your assertions, there are in fact a few Eastern Churches that have used the professio fidei of St. Athanasius from time to time. Some remove the clause on the procession of the Holy Spirit in doing so. Even Orthodox here have acknowleded this. And see below for more.

I also gave you 3 arguments in favor of the thesis of traditional authorship I am defending, beside the internal contents of the Creed that at least create a normative presumption of Athanasian authorship until definitively falsified, (1) the testimony of the Church of Rome to its origin, which assumes special importance because it is known St. Athanasius visited Pope St. Julius in Rome. CE: "Athanasius was obliged to go into hiding. Within a very few weeks he set out for Rome to lay his case before the Church at large. He had made his appeal to Pope Julius, who took up his cause with a whole-heartedness that never wavered down to the day of that holy pontiff's death. The pope summoned a synod of bishops to meet in Rome. After a careful and detailed examination of the entire case, the primate's innocence was proclaimed to the Christian world." This also explains why it was composed in Latin - it was composed in Rome (2) the testimony of the Eastern prelates at the Council of Florence who did not challenge the Athanasian authorship of the Creed (there is also more on that; see below for a sample scholarly defense of Athanasian authorship) (3) the testimony of St. Caesarius of Arles long ago.

(4) there is also the testimony of the Council of Autun in 670 A.D. and other things I've not gone into. All in all, a solid case.

I didn't mean to speak about this here, but I will be entering seminary in a couple of years. I've read volumes of the Fathers more than you think, because I love the writings of the holy Fathers, but you can think whatever you like. I give links with brief summaries to online sources so other people can read them and study the matter further if they choose. I wouldn't know where to find these incidents if I hadn' read them before and elsewhere, like that of St. Athanasius meeting St. Julius. On Sunday, for Prime, in Latin, we chant in the Office the Creed of most blessed Athanasius, chant is sufficient to keep the mind and heart of man entranced forever, but sometimes it is necessary to defend the truth of what we chant when it is called into question  - you didn't answer my question, why did none of the dignitaries of the Eastern Churches answer that the Creed was not penned by St. Athanasius, but by someone else? The Church is witness that this Creed comes from St. Athanasius, just like She is witness to the fact the Creed of the Apostles comes from the 12 chosen by Christ. I would advice you at least to tread carefully in presuming to state as dogma that St. Athanasius did not author the creed, which may contradict some of the authorities of your own Church, but I doubt Sacred Tradition and the unanimous consent of centuries of Christians means much to you. You're more troubled by a few prominent theories here and there put forward by this and that non-sainted person and which change every 30 years or so. Btw, who is the author of the Creed? Care to tell us, with certainty, the conclusions of your research, as to that? A brief defense of traditional authorship:

Quote
My lords, the question before us is one of grave importance, and one on which momentous issues hang. Assertions have been lately put forth with regard to the Athanasian Creed which have made a deep impression on the public mind, and which, unless carefully examined, will be likely to sway our deliberations and to affect legislation upon it. Great caution and circumspection, as well as diligent investigation, are required in dealing with this subject ... I have felt it an imperative duty, my lords, to examine them, and have risen from the inquiry with the conviction that they have no foundation in fact.

First, it is not easy to believe, that Paulinus, the venerable Patriarch of Aquileia, one of the most learned men of his age, would be guilty of committing a forgery, and that Alcuin, one of our greatest theologians, would be an accomplice to the imposture. And for what purpose? To support Charlemagne in his imperial enterprises against the Throne and Church of the East. This is scarcely credible ...

Let me here advert, in passing, to a popular fallacy.

It is boldly said by many that the Greek Church knows nothing of the Athanasian Creed. Now, my lords, if any one will take the trouble to examine the collection of the Symbolical Books of the Eastern Church, published by Kimmel (Jena, 1843, p. 67), he will see that in the Orthodox Confession of the Eastern Church, put forth in the seventeenth century by the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, the Athanasian Creed is treated with deep reverence, and is ascribed to Athanasius himself; and it is inserted as such in the Horologium of the Eastern Church (p. 494, ed. Venet., 1868), where it is also ascribed to Athanasius, and is spoken of with much veneration ...

it is clear that the Athanasian Creed existed, and had been already widely diffused, before that time. I will not dwell, my lords, on the commentary upon it, attributed by Waterland to Venantius Fortunatus, and assigned by him to the year 570; nor on the Canon of the Council of Autun, which Waterland supposes to have been held in 670, and which prescribes the use of that Creed ; nor on the manuscript of it at Vienna, which Charlemagne is said to have presented to Pope Adrian I. in 772. In the 33rd Canon of the Council of Frankfort, held in 794, the Athanasian Creed is mentioned as a well-known formulary, and is required to be professed and delivered to all (Concil. Labbe, vii., 1062j.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline biro

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Yes, we seem to be unaware.of all of 1642.

We don't believe you. Sorry you can't get that through your skull.
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Offline Vanhyo

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I didn't mean to speak about this here, but I will be entering seminary in a couple of years.
Maybe some time off the internet will be healty for you.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 12:47:42 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline HaydenTE

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...about 1642 when a modernist Protestant published a theory...

Quote
1642

Quote
modernist Protestant

Something doesn’t add up here...
FYI, the word modernist didn’t even exist until 1737, and the philosophy it’s connected to didn't come about until the late 19th century.
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Offline Alpha60

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There are two versions of Quincunque Vult: the heretical filioque bearing one contained in Western books, and a correct, Orthodox version, commonly found in Greek Horologia according to the Metropolitan of Diokleia, and for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables, A Psalter for Prayer, from Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Jordanville contains it.  I have previously posted this on OCNet if memory serves, so the enteprising reader might well deign to search for it, or they might well not, given the absurd nature of this thread.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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The Council of Autun was a Western council, so it makes sense they would recognize a Western creed. And in my honest opinion, as I've stated before, how the West understood the Filioque has changed since the Great Schism, so instead of it being wrong one-fold (that is, it being completely uncanonical), it is wrong two-fold (it's heterodox and uncanonical).

Tell me, do you believe that the sinful woman is Mary Magdalene, or that the Donation of Constantine was legitimate - despite both of these novelties being "unanimous tradition" in the West, even though both these traditions have absolutely not a single drop of history in the East?

Saint Vincent of Lerins said the following:

"Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself, we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, Bishops and Doctors alike."

Thus, if there is a belief that is held in only one region of the world, in this case, Western Europe, and nowhere else - in the pre-Schism Church - it is not Catholic.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 02:20:46 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Also, it's worth noting that in the 70s, Dies Irae was revised to change "Mary Magdalene" to the "sinful woman," because contemporary scholarship doesn't recognize the sinful woman as the same person as Mary Magdalene - once again, a tradition foreign to the East.
I'm done.

Offline Sharbel

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I'm all for following St. Athanasius: "What has not been assumed, has not been redeemed."  Since the Christ of Catholic Christology did not assume the fallen human nature (vis-a-vis the dogma of the Immaculate Conception), in contradiction to the Scriptures (Heb 2:17), man has not been redeemed.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 02:44:46 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline RaphaCam

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for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables
But it has four syllables. :P  One could write it "Octoëchos" to definitely ditch the ambiguity, like "Zoë", but this is a bit of orthographic overkill, I guess.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 03:34:05 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Only an ignoramus would believe Athanasius wrote the creed. There are literally no copies of it in Greek from an early period, it exhibits a Latin composition in style, and it has - as per historical record - only ever been used in the Latin churches from the earlier centuries. You keep railing against "liberals" and "modernists" because they prove inconvenient for your particular denomination. Well, I'm not shedding a tear. And every time you say they are wrong, you've yet to engage with the historical arguments that they make. The only thing you've said is, "But it is too amazing not to have been written by Athanasius." That argument is the stupidest thing I've read in months. Do you know how many forgeries were passed off as either Augustine or Ambrose successfully for centuries on end? No one doubts this now. Yet you doubt such arguments when it comes to this creed, because the creed makes things easier for you. These threads are increasingly becoming an act of masturbation on your part. Dialogue is so limited because anything that doesn't agree with you must be "liberal" or "modernist." Your sources are hardly original, but pulled from quote mines. Do yourself a favor, unplug your internet, find a book store, find a copy of some work written by one of the Church Fathers - doesn't matter which one - buy it, read it, and then sit back in wonderment on what it is like NOT to read just 2-5 lines of a work on a dimwitted and illiterate apologetic website.

Unnf!!

Offline Alpo

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Why are you arguing about Catholic ecclesiastical politics on an Orthodox board? Orthodox should convert to Catholicism because this Catholic party is better than that Catholic party?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 03:55:42 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Apotheoun

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Scholarly consensus - as the Encyclopedia Britannica article linked below states - has been against Athanasian authorship for the creed that bears his name since at least the 17th century. That said, I see no reason to reject this scholarly position.

Athanasian Creed
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

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St. Theodore Studite

Offline LBK

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for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables
But it has four syllables. :P 

Indeed it does. No idea why Alpha thinks otherwise.  :o ???
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline RaphaCam

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for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables
But it has four syllables. :P 
Indeed it does. No idea why Alpha thinks otherwise.  :o ???
Well, someone read it as "octeekos" (which is expectable) and he took their word for granted.
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Offline Alpha60

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for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables
But it has four syllables. :P 
Indeed it does. No idea why Alpha thinks otherwise.  :o ???
Well, someone read it as "octeekos" (which is expectable) and he took their word for granted.

Nope.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

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Offline LBK

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for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables
But it has four syllables. :P 
Indeed it does. No idea why Alpha thinks otherwise.  :o ???
Well, someone read it as "octeekos" (which is expectable) and he took their word for granted.

Nope.

So how did you think Ochtoechos should be pronounced, Alpha?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Alpha60

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for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables
But it has four syllables. :P 
Indeed it does. No idea why Alpha thinks otherwise.  :o ???
Well, someone read it as "octeekos" (which is expectable) and he took their word for granted.

Nope.

So how did you think Ochtoechos should be pronounced, Alpha?

Well I think there should be just one “h” for starters, although I will concede my nitpicking a typo is pure and unmitigated hypocrisy.   Hypocrisy is the spice of life, however; accept no substitute!  So let us return shall we to the subject of Quincunque Vult; why is it that I alone seem to be making the rather important point that the version used by the RCC is corrupt, and that we posess what is probably the uncorrupted original?  A point which might also have some bearing on the Athanasian Creed.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline LBK

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for the benefit of Anglophones such as myself whose grasp of the Hellenic tongue is so poor we instinctively pronounce Octoechos with four syllables
But it has four syllables. :P 
Indeed it does. No idea why Alpha thinks otherwise.  :o ???
Well, someone read it as "octeekos" (which is expectable) and he took their word for granted.

Nope.

So how did you think Ochtoechos should be pronounced, Alpha?

Well I think there should be just one “h” for starters, although I will concede my nitpicking a typo is pure and unmitigated hypocrisy.   

Nothing to do with typos (there are none), and everything to do with your false assertion in the name of correct Greek pronunciation.  ::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Xavier

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Very briefly, here is more on the Creed for now: "There is a profession of faith still extant, which was made about the year 798 by a Bishop of Worcester to one of your Grace's predecessors, and which was published last year at Oxford in that valuable work, which reflects so much credit on its learned editors, Mr. Haddan and Professor Stubbs, "The Councils and Ecclesiastical Documents of Great Britain ;" and in that profession of faith the Bishop of Worcester declares his own belief in the words of the Athanasian Creed. He refers to it as a well-known document. " Scriptum est," he says, " Quicunque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est illi ut teneat Catholicam Fidem." He then cites verbatim nine verses of the Athanasian Creed (see " Councils," &c., published by Haddan and Stubbs, Oxford, 1867, vol. iii., 526).

The Athanasian Creed must have been received in England some years before that time, or it never could have attained to that dignity which is assigned to it in that Episcopal confession of faith. But what is most important of all, Alcuin himself, in another work, that on the Procession of the Holy Spirit, distinctly asserts that the Athanasian Creed was an exposition of the Catholic faith made " by the blessed Athanasius himself, the most reverend Bishop of the city of Alexandria, and received by the universal Church " (see Alcuin's works in Migne's '* Patrologia," vol. cv., p. 71).

This was written before a.d. 804, when Alcuin died. Could an honest man, as surely Alcuin was, have ever used such words as these if he had known the Athanasian Creed to have been composed by his own contemporary, Paulinus ? It is distinctly called " The Catholic Faith of St. Athanasius," by the Fathers of the Council of Aix in 802."

Would you like a source, dear friends, regarding the Protestant thesis of 1642, which first cast doubt on the traditional view of Athanasian authorship? Here it is mentioned on Wikipedia, "A medieval account credited Athanasius of Alexandria, the famous defender of Nicene theology, as the author of the Creed. According to this account, Athanasius composed it during his exile in Rome and presented it to Pope Julius I as a witness to his orthodoxy. This traditional attribution of the Creed to Athanasius was first called into question in 1642 by Dutch Protestant theologian G. J. Voss.[4] " This is also.why the Encyclopedia Britannica article mentioned the "17th century" as the time when consensus turned; though they conveniently neglect to mention the unanimous consent of Christians for nearly 13 centuries before that.

Also, there really is no consensus, because nobody agrees on which non-Athanasian author is really the author. A careful student of historical research will see it's almost impossible to sustain one single person as the author for long. St. Vincent of Lerins was suggested for a while. St. Hilary of Arles after that. All these theories have few adherents today; even after the 17th century, Athanasian authorship has many distinguished scholarly proponents, so it most certainly can be critically defended, as shown above. If someone like St. Germanus or his disciples wrote it, as suggested here, why did none of his subsequent disciples claim the glory of having authored the Creed for their own master, and oppose the Saints and others who spoke of it as composed by St. Athanasius?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 09:33:49 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Okay, ignoring my subsequent comment, I'll reiterate my reasoning in answer to your objection, with another question.

If Leo IX, who in your church's view, is an infallibly canonized saint who preserved Western Christendom (of course), how could have he possibly used the Donation of Constantine, arguing the truth of it, in his fight against the East? Does that mean he was a liar?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 12:23:03 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Rohzek

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But there is a scholarly consensus. The consensus is that Athanasius DID NOT WRITE IT! As to who wrote it, that's a matter of debate. But this latter question is different entirely. Your conflation of the two question betrays a general lack of understanding of basic logic or a sleight of hand. As a medievalist and an actually careful student of historical research, I can tell you that any time the Athanasian Creed comes up in any work of scholarship, it is ALWAYS noted as not being written by him or it is outright called the Pseudo-Athanasian Creed. No one is accusing the Carolingian theologians of lying. They are accusing of them of being mistaken in their attribution.

And just so you know, Paulinus of Aqueleia is a poor witness to summon for historical accuracy. He actually argued that the Greeks removed the filioque from the Nicene Creed and that the Council of Ephesus had originally put it in there.

Last but not least, who are these scholarly proponents you speak of? Where are they? Name one. And better yet, name one from the second half of the 20th century at the latest.

Also, you don't have the right volume for Alcuin. It is volume 101.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 05:19:35 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline RaphaCam

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The fact there is no positive consensus doesn't mean there's no negative consensus. I'm pretty sure Al Gore didn't write it, for instance.
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I'm inventing a new drinking game for every time Xavier posts. 
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I'm inventing a new drinking game for every time Xavier posts.

May your liver’s memory be eternal.
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Offline Xavier

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Quote from: Rohzek
As to who wrote it, that's a matter of debate.

1. Precisely, and that's the very definition of an absence of a consensus. What you are saying is like Protestants saying, As long as we all agree Catholic/Orthodox/patristic interpretation on the Eucharist, say, is mistaken, we're all at a perfect consensus! No matter even if there are be as many opinions as there are men among Protestants as to what the Holy Eucharist is. That's not a consensus, that's a confusion that arises when Tradition is discarded. Or like ancient polytheistic pagans saying, even if we worship serpents, monkeys, wood, stone and fire, we're all at a consensus, because we all agree God is not to be worshiped! That's confusion, not consensus.

Also, you're not engaging the arguments at all. We have the testimony of (1) the Council of Aix in 803 (2) that of Alcuin of York that the Creed was handed down by Blessed Athanasius himself (3) the Council of Frankfurt in 794 (4) the Council of Autun in 670 A.D. (5) the commentary of St. Vincentus Fortunatus on the Creed. We also have St. Caesarius of Arles handing down a copy of the Creed, who was called the most learned man of his age. If he or someone in Arles, France had written it, he would have signed his name to it. He does not do so because its authorship was already well known and widely accepted. As well finally as the fact that Pope St. Julius completely trusted someone who was then "against the world" and very controversial; what can explain such an occurence? That St. Athanasius made a profession of Faith before the Pope that completely delighted Rome and fully satisfied the Pope not only as to the orthodoxy of the Father of orthodoxy but even as to his very saintliness, exactly as Tradition hands down, is entirely consistent with those facts.

2. I can show you Bishops, priests, theologians of high ranking authority and scholarship, who defended the Creed of St. Athanasius as being truly written by him, even as late as the 19th century. James Cardinal Gibbons gave his full approval to this work, (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Manual_of_Prayers_for_the_Use_of_the_Catholic_Laity), which speaks of the Creed as composed by St. Athanasius. (see Link Sunday morning, Prime, as I said). I have shown you Greek sources and official books of the Greek Church that attribute it to him, which you have not so much as touched. You prefer to engage in this religious Creed as if it were a purely secular subject, and as if we were non-Christians, with a deference to secularists; but even with such a methodology, the 5 proofs above would be conclusive. Why don't you try to write a thesis supporting one single person as the author? I'd be interested to read it. Here are just 2 difficulties you'll never get past. E.g. if you postulate St. Hilary of Arles as the author, as many once did (1) How is it that no one in France objected, when the Creed began to be very widely circulated, and attributed to St. Athanasius? (2) How is it that St. Hilary of Arles nor his contemporaries nor those he met, nor any tradition anywhere, nor any of the most highly learned clerics of the day, attribute it to him, or speak of him as composing such a Creed? (3) A third one specific to Christians, which I already asked you is, why are there books of the Greek Church that attribute it to St. Athanasius even after Florence, and why did not one protest at Florence that it was not the composition of St. Athanasius?

Let me ask you a final question: Do you believe the Creed of the Apostles comes from the 12 chosen by the Lord, or do you agree with those who claim this is also "known" to be of "unknown authorship"? What does Rufinus say about that? it's worth citing in full, to see how Tradition is handed down orally, by reliable men, then gradually becomes known to many, and ends up being accepted by all. In just the same way as Rufinus does for the Apostles' Creed, Alcuin tells us the Athanasian Creed was accepted by the universal Church.

Quote
"Our forefathers have handed down to us the tradition, that, after the Lord's ascension, when, through the coming of the Holy Ghost, tongues of flame had settled upon each of the Apostles ... Being all therefore met together, and being filled with the Holy Ghost, they composed, as we have said, this brief formulary of their future preaching, each contributing his several sentence to one common summary: and they ordained that the rule thus framed should be given to those who believe.

To this formulary, for many and most sufficient reasons, they gave the name or Symbol. For Symbol (κύμβολον) in Greek answers to both "Indicium" (a sign or token) and "Collatio" (a joint contribution made by several) in Latin. For this the Apostles did in these words, each contributing his several sentence. It is called "Indicium" or "Signum," a sign or token, because, at that time, as the Apostle Paul says, and as is related in the Acts of the Apostles, many of the vagabond Jews, pretending to be apostles of Christ, went about preaching for gain's sake or their belly's sake, naming the name of Christ indeed, but not delivering their message according to the exact traditional lines. The Apostles therefore prescribed this formulary as a sign or token by which he who preached Christ truly, according to Apostolic rule, might be recognised. Finally, they say that in civil wars, since the armour of both sides is alike, and the language the same, and the custom and mode of warfare the same, each general, to guard against treachery, is wont to deliver to his soldiers a distinct symbol or watchword — in Latin "signum" or "indicium"— so that if one is met with, of whom it is doubtful to which side he belongs, being asked the symbol (watchword), he discloses whether he is friend or foe. And for this reason, the tradition continues, the Creed is not written on paper or parchment, but is retained in the hearts of the faithful, that it may be certain that no one has learned it by reading, as is sometimes the case with unbelievers, but by tradition from the Apostles."

Live, my answer is, we never place a dogmatic Creed that we've professed liturgically, at Prime, on Sundays, and on Trinity Sunday, and elsewhere, on par with some historical stories/documents/local beliefs or paintings about St. Magdalene, and the like. St. Montfort says many such things are of pious faith only at most and not dogmatic. The Creed however constitutes dogmatic Tradition. Let me ask you as well, do you believe what the monk Ruffinus says about the Apostles' Creed? If so, what historical reason is there to reject the unanimous consent of more than a 1000 years of Christians, as well as prelates of the Greek Church, that the Creed was written by St. Athanasius?
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Rohzek

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Dude what don't you get? You have again conflated the scholarly consensus that Athanasius did not write it with real debate over who actually wrote it. It does not matter that various 8th, 9th, and 17th century councils attributed the creed to Athanasius. They are all wrong. Like I said before, there are no extant early Greek copies and is only mentioned in early Latin sources. You summon all these saints as though they had perfect historical knowledge. They didn't and no saint does. For example, Gregory of Tours and Bede's histories are rife with errors. Saints are not perfect arbiters of historical truth. It is also telling that you failed to summon one single source from the 20th century, giving the lie to your assertion that there is no scholarly consensus. There is one and is has been settled, especially since Kelly writing in the 1960s. Get off your Google Books and Archives.org, and go to an actual library and read the most current scholarship on the matter.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Alpha60

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I'm inventing a new drinking game for every time Xavier posts.

May your liver’s memory be eternal.

LOL!
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline Alpha60

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For reference purposes, this is the actual Athanasian Creed as found in Orthodox psalters, prayerbooks and Horologia:
Quote

WHOSOEVER will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity, to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. Likewise also the Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater, or less than another; but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

FURTHERMORE, it is necessary to everlasting salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the ages, and Man, of the Substance of His Mother, born in the world; perfect God, and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting; equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father, as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ; one; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

Source: A Psalter for Prayer (containing the Jordanville Psalter, used with permission, copyright and  published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York; please buy a copy if you can - I have one on Kindle, and it is a superb book, much more than just the book of Psalms, but rather loaded with enough supplementary material so that one could even use it as a standalone prayer book in a pinch; as a Psalter, I like it more than most editions of the Coptic Agpeya, because it uses LXX versification, and is corrected from the beautiful prose of the Coverdale Psalter, traditionally used in Anglican liturgy).


Compare with this, the heterodox form: 

Quote

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish
     everlastingly.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,
     neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory
     equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost
     incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and
     one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by
      himself to be both God and Lord,
So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten,
      but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three
      Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another;
But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be
      worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the
      Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of
      God, is God and Man;
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance
      of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his
      manhood;
Who, although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sitteth at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from
      whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their
      own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into
      everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.


Source: the 1928 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church USA, which is in the public domain and is thus freely modifiable and redistributable.

As these quotes indicate, the devil is truly in the details.



"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.