Author Topic: The universe in a billion years from now disproves the second coming of Christ?  (Read 3220 times)

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Offline Nicodemusz138

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Since february that I do not post anything in here, but I believe that this will get more answers perhaps in OC.net than where I posted it at first (I am doing a direct copy and paste of my question), I am not sure where to find some christian answers to this issue, Orthodox or not, and to be honest, I have never seen any christian ever talk about it.

Is the main christian belief that Jesus is returning to resurrect the dead, and restore his creation in any way contradictory that for example, the universe can continue on for billions of years, even forever?

When I was young, I heard for the first time the theory that in a billion years from now, the earth might be swallowed by the sun, along other universal cataclysmic events on the universe, and etc, I found it really hard to reconcile this with my view on Christ returning, resurrecting the dead, his creation, and whatnot, if it is even possible to reconcile this, personally, this is one of the most massive walls that are blocking my faith, the little I have of it, evolution does not interrupts anything, but this "ultimate fate of the universe" surely does.

Now let us completely discard any kind of cosmological events like this occuring, does not the universe continuing on for billions of years from now, contradicts a second coming doctrine?, by then, if Jesus comes back, the human race is perhaps already long extinct and the universe is completely different and uninhabitable than what it was before.

What is your take on this?, will time continue on even after the return of Christ (and the establishment of the kingdom)?, what exactly does a restoration means in that context?, does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 says that the world remains forever?, keep in mind, I do not subscribe to the second coming as being a massive destructive event as most of pop protestantism teaches.

I no longer post on this forum as much as I used to, but I still read here sometimes, you are fully welcome to send me PMs or invite me to conversations at any time you wish!

Although I did not join an Orthodox Church, I still must thank all of my Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ who accompanied me in my journey towards finding God.

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Offline Orthodox_Slav

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."-Philotheus of Pskov

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!- Paschal troparion

Offline Nicodemusz138

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D

Well, this is the answer I would get if I asked this in an evangelical apologetics blog on YouTube.
I no longer post on this forum as much as I used to, but I still read here sometimes, you are fully welcome to send me PMs or invite me to conversations at any time you wish!

Although I did not join an Orthodox Church, I still must thank all of my Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ who accompanied me in my journey towards finding God.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. - 2 Corinthians 13:14

Offline biro

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Yes, the sun is going to die someday, as is the rest of the Universe.
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Offline Jackson02

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D

Well, this is the answer I would get if I asked this in an evangelical apologetics blog on YouTube.

I was just thinking that.

Offline Orthodox_Slav

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."-Philotheus of Pskov

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!- Paschal troparion

Offline RaphaCam

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I'm sorry, but your line of thought is very very far from logic. You're just so amazed by the immensity of the universe that you're feeling unable to wonder about events that would sever its continuity. Maths can imagine the "ultimate fate of the universe" and "cosmological events" assuming the continuity of existing patterns, but these patterns will be over, since Christ will transform them.

You're also looking at this particular verse of Ecclesiastes in a Protestant way... This is about a resentful man contrasting the impermanence of man with the endurance of the world, trying to take a doctrinal cosmological statement from it is basically torturing the verse.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Orthodox_Slav

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I'm sorry, but your line of thought is very very far from logic. You're just so amazed by the immensity of the universe that you're feeling unable to wonder about events that would sever its continuity. Maths can imagine the "ultimate fate of the universe" and "cosmological events" assuming the continuity of existing patterns, but these patterns will be over, since Christ will transform them.

You're also looking at this particular verse of Ecclesiastes in a Protestant way... This is about a resentful man contrasting the impermanence of man with the endurance of the world, trying to take a doctrinal cosmological statement from it is basically torturing the verse.

are you talking about me bruv!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."-Philotheus of Pskov

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!- Paschal troparion

Offline biro

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Science doesn't preach.

Also, the heat death of the universe won't be for several billion years.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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Offline Orthodox_Slav

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so do you also believe in evolution or that the world is billions of years old!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."-Philotheus of Pskov

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!- Paschal troparion

Offline Nicodemusz138

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You're also looking at this particular verse of Ecclesiastes in a Protestant way... This is about a resentful man contrasting the impermanence of man with the endurance of the world, trying to take a doctrinal cosmological statement from it is basically torturing the verse.

That is sadly how I look at the majority of the Bible.

so do you also believe in evolution or that the world is billions of years old!

Well, I guess that should contact AnswersInGenesis for help, then.
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May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. - 2 Corinthians 13:14

Offline Orthodox_Slav

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look I was being a big idiot here I really am sorry! :'(
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."-Philotheus of Pskov

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!- Paschal troparion

Offline Jackson02

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look I was being a big idiot here I really am sorry! :'(

Don't be so hard on yourself man. We all make mistakes.

Offline Nicodemusz138

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look I was being a big idiot here I really am sorry! :'(

Were you being serious there?, sorry if I am being rude, too :'(
I no longer post on this forum as much as I used to, but I still read here sometimes, you are fully welcome to send me PMs or invite me to conversations at any time you wish!

Although I did not join an Orthodox Church, I still must thank all of my Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ who accompanied me in my journey towards finding God.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. - 2 Corinthians 13:14

Offline biro

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Ironically, the reason you believe the Earth is a few thousand years old is because of an Anglican Protestant minister, who added up the ages of all the people in the Bible, and said that's what he got.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline RaphaCam

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are you talking about me bruv!
No, Nicodemusz.

You're also looking at this particular verse of Ecclesiastes in a Protestant way... This is about a resentful man contrasting the impermanence of man with the endurance of the world, trying to take a doctrinal cosmological statement from it is basically torturing the verse.
That is sadly how I look at the majority of the Bible.
I know where you are, and I've been there even though I was never a Protestant, but it's wrong. Read more Christian literature and try to be more abstractive reading the Bible, instead of technical (as if you were reading a manual). Look for answers instead of questions.
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Offline RaphaCam

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the heat death of the universe won't be for several billion years.
It won't happen, and this doesn't mean "science is wrong". This kind of cosmological prevision doesn't account only for empirically observable laws, but also for the caeteris paribus assumption. The parousia of Christ will refute the caeteris paribus.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Luke

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It is about 5 billion years from now that the sun will start expanding and swallow the earth.  I will not be around here at that point. :-X

Offline Porter ODoran

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Yes, most of the active posters here are without hope, and will die in their sins. This is why you should be looking elsewhere for Orthodox fellowship. It took me a long time here to admit this and leave for good.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Yes, most of the active posters here are without hope, and will die in their sins. This is why you should be looking elsewhere for Orthodox fellowship. It took me a long time here to admit this and leave for good.

Welcome back!
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Offline Jackson02

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Yes, most of the active posters here are without hope, and will die in their sins. This is why you should be looking elsewhere for Orthodox fellowship. It took me a long time here to admit this and leave for good.

Well, hello there stranger.  :)

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D
Scientists say the Sun will burn up and consume the Earth.
St. Paul says the elements will melt by fervent heat.


So...where's the contradiction again?   ???
Ironically, the reason you believe the Earth is a few thousand years old is because of an Anglican Protestant minister, who added up the ages of all the people in the Bible, and said that's what he got.
Or alternatively, a Catholic monk who did the same thing, got exactly 5199 BC, and put that in the Roman Martyrology for December 25th. Which was officially taught in Catholic churches at Midnight Mass (obviously not all of them, but enough) until just a few years ago.
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Is the main christian belief that Jesus is returning to resurrect the dead, and restore his creation in any way contradictory that for example, the universe can continue on for billions of years, even forever?
Even if this universe enters into a heat death, there might be other universes that exist; see the "multiverse" hypothesis.

If the process of theosis is entering into deeper and deeper oneness with the Infinite God, as body-and-mind-and-spirit, then that would imply that the process of theosis will never end (because God is without end) and that a universe (the environmental source of physical body) will always exist.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
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Offline RaphaCam

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a universe (the environmental source of physical body) will always exist.
This is alien to Christian cosmology and was actually a point of contention between Pagans and early Christians.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline biro

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D
Scientists say the Sun will burn up and consume the Earth.
St. Paul says the elements will melt by fervent heat.


So...where's the contradiction again?   ???
Ironically, the reason you believe the Earth is a few thousand years old is because of an Anglican Protestant minister, who added up the ages of all the people in the Bible, and said that's what he got.
Or alternatively, a Catholic monk who did the same thing, got exactly 5199 BC, and put that in the Roman Martyrology for December 25th. Which was officially taught in Catholic churches at Midnight Mass (obviously not all of them, but enough) until just a few years ago.

What the Hell? I went to midnight mass in Catholic churches until eight years ago, when I started to attend an Orthodox church. They never read the Martyrology. None of them ever taught me that. You're considerably younger than I am, so I have no reason to believe you.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline Jetavan

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a universe (the environmental source of physical body) will always exist.
This is alien to Christian cosmology and was actually a point of contention between Pagans and early Christians.
What about the vision of "a new Heaven and a new Earth" in Revelation chapter 21?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Sethrak

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So ~ what did they decide ~ shall we follow Our Lord ~ or them ~ who are they anyway ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
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Offline biro

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So ~ what did they decide ~ shall we follow Our Lord ~ or them ~ who are they anyway ```

Boo, facts!
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline RaphaCam

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a universe (the environmental source of physical body) will always exist.
This is alien to Christian cosmology and was actually a point of contention between Pagans and early Christians.
What about the vision of "a new Heaven and a new Earth" in Revelation chapter 21?
The keyword is new.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Ainnir

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Yes, most of the active posters here are without hope, and will die in their sins. This is why you should be looking elsewhere for Orthodox fellowship. It took me a long time here to admit this and leave for good.

Welcome back!
+100!
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a sinner.

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D
Scientists say the Sun will burn up and consume the Earth.
St. Paul says the elements will melt by fervent heat.


So...where's the contradiction again?   ???
Ironically, the reason you believe the Earth is a few thousand years old is because of an Anglican Protestant minister, who added up the ages of all the people in the Bible, and said that's what he got.
Or alternatively, a Catholic monk who did the same thing, got exactly 5199 BC, and put that in the Roman Martyrology for December 25th. Which was officially taught in Catholic churches at Midnight Mass (obviously not all of them, but enough) until just a few years ago.

What the Hell? I went to midnight mass in Catholic churches until eight years ago, when I started to attend an Orthodox church. They never read the Martyrology. None of them ever taught me that. You're considerably younger than I am, so I have no reason to believe you.

Just because you had the misfortune of attending a lackluster parish doesn’t mean the Martyrology doesn’t exist.  All you have to do is watch recordings of Midnight Mass from the Vatican or from major cathedrals or shrines to hear it.  Many parishes also sing it. 

Here’s some catechism you were apparently robbed of: https://www.thoughtco.com/traditional-proclamation-birth-of-christ-542487
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline Alpha60

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Is the main christian belief that Jesus is returning to resurrect the dead, and restore his creation in any way contradictory that for example, the universe can continue on for billions of years, even forever?
Even if this universe enters into a heat death, there might be other universes that exist; see the "multiverse" hypothesis.

If the process of theosis is entering into deeper and deeper oneness with the Infinite God, as body-and-mind-and-spirit, then that would imply that the process of theosis will never end (because God is without end) and that a universe (the environmental source of physical body) will always exist.

Actually, with the multiverse hypothesis, most forms of it, for example the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics, envisage all of the parallel universes emerging from the Big Bang, in the case of Many Worlds, as a result of quantum events.   Since all of these universes originated in the Big Bang and have to have the same physical laws, it stands to reason that thermal entropy should catch up with all of them at roughly the same time; when I say roughly, I doubt the difference would even amount to a trillion years; star formation in our universe is expected to end in about a hundred trillion years, and it is difficult to imagine a scenario where a universe would enjoy any substantial improvement over that (conversely, perhaps there are some universes where quantum processes did not work out as well, which have fewer stars and will thus die sooner).

One possible variation could involve the changing rate of the expansion of the universe, assuming, and this is a huge assumption, that that rate of acceleration turns out to be the product of some quantum event.  But, comsidering these parallel universes are by nature inaccessible to us, from a theological or cosmological perspective, I don’t really care.

Eschatology is also not threatened by this; our Lord did promise that no one except the Father in Heaven would know the hour of his Return; what is more, thermal entropy is as much a form of destruction of the universe as anything else.  God furthermore merely by His own will could simply eliminate this universe altogether at any time; His mercy precludes us from having to worry about that.   But we still have to face the Judgement Seat of Christ our Lord, so we must continue to pray and so on.  All the parallel universes that could possibly exist would not be enough to allow anyone an escape from the Last Judgement.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 12:50:34 AM by Alpha60 »

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D
Scientists say the Sun will burn up and consume the Earth.
St. Paul says the elements will melt by fervent heat.


So...where's the contradiction again?   ???
Ironically, the reason you believe the Earth is a few thousand years old is because of an Anglican Protestant minister, who added up the ages of all the people in the Bible, and said that's what he got.
Or alternatively, a Catholic monk who did the same thing, got exactly 5199 BC, and put that in the Roman Martyrology for December 25th. Which was officially taught in Catholic churches at Midnight Mass (obviously not all of them, but enough) until just a few years ago.

What the Hell? I went to midnight mass in Catholic churches until eight years ago, when I started to attend an Orthodox church. They never read the Martyrology. None of them ever taught me that. You're considerably younger than I am, so I have no reason to believe you.

Just because you had the misfortune of attending a lackluster parish doesn’t mean the Martyrology doesn’t exist.  All you have to do is watch recordings of Midnight Mass from the Vatican or from major cathedrals or shrines to hear it.  Many parishes also sing it. 

Here’s some catechism you were apparently robbed of: https://www.thoughtco.com/traditional-proclamation-birth-of-christ-542487

One thing I love about the Coptic Church is the reliability with which they read the Synaxarion, which is their martyrology (although I have heard the Ethiopian martyrology is more historically accurate, either from Severian or AN if memory serves).

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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look science will always try to disprove Religion but we must stand strong and represent Eastern Orthodox Christianity Christ will come again the terrible judgment will happen and no the Planet will not be consumed by the sun! do not believe the lies that are being piled on top of you by scientists!  :D
Scientists say the Sun will burn up and consume the Earth.
St. Paul says the elements will melt by fervent heat.


So...where's the contradiction again?   ???
Ironically, the reason you believe the Earth is a few thousand years old is because of an Anglican Protestant minister, who added up the ages of all the people in the Bible, and said that's what he got.
Or alternatively, a Catholic monk who did the same thing, got exactly 5199 BC, and put that in the Roman Martyrology for December 25th. Which was officially taught in Catholic churches at Midnight Mass (obviously not all of them, but enough) until just a few years ago.

Or alternativelt, whoever came up with the Byzantine Calendar epoch known as “The Year of Creation,” which interestingly is not far off from the date on the Jewish calendar or the date on the Assyrian calendar.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Luke

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In about 4 billion years, the Andromeda Galaxy and ours may collide.  I will have to check up on my collision insurance. :)

Offline Rubricnigel

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Yes, most of the active posters here are without hope, and will die in their sins. This is why you should be looking elsewhere for Orthodox fellowship. It took me a long time here to admit this and leave for good.

As someone who is always looking for fellowship, id love to hear about any great places online besides here?
You can dm me, or post it here if you want.

God bless

Offline NicholasMyra

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Now let us completely discard any kind of cosmological events like this occuring, does not the universe continuing on for billions of years from now, contradicts a second coming doctrine?, by then, if Jesus comes back, the human race is perhaps already long extinct and the universe is completely different and uninhabitable than what it was before.

What is your take on this?, will time continue on even after the return of Christ (and the establishment of the kingdom)?, what exactly does a restoration means in that context?, does not Ecclesiastes 1:4 says that the world remains forever?, keep in mind, I do not subscribe to the second coming as being a massive destructive event as most of pop protestantism teaches.

First, let's get clear about the problem you're pointing out. Because at first glance, it's hard to see any contradiction between these ideas. Let me give it ago, the problems might be:

1. Christ could come billions of years too late for humanity, because there are billions of possible years (more, really, time gets weird when you talk about it on a cosmic scale) remaining in the universe.
2. There's supposed to be a cataclysmic event that ends the universe, but it looks like the universe is going to exist potentially forever. Plus, it looks like Ecclesiastes says the earth will exist forever.

If I got that somewhat right, then here are a couple thoughts:

1. Christ could just come earlier than that, while humans are still around. In fact, some believe that Christ is waiting for the full harvest of humans (all those who can imitate him and represent him and bring forth beautiful things) before the end comes.

2. We don't believe that Christ will destroy our world and create a brand new world. We believe he will renew this world. To use an old line: Christ said, 'Behold I make all new!" he didn't say "Behold, I make all new things." Nothing good will be lost forever.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 01:59:41 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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a universe (the environmental source of physical body) will always exist.
This is alien to Christian cosmology and was actually a point of contention between Pagans and early Christians.
Raphacam, the pagans said that the universe pre-existed, and the Christians disagreed. That's not the same as saying the universe won't exist forever in the future, now that it does exist.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline RaphaCam

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a universe (the environmental source of physical body) will always exist.
This is alien to Christian cosmology and was actually a point of contention between Pagans and early Christians.
Raphacam, the pagans said that the universe pre-existed, and the Christians disagreed. That's not the same as saying the universe won't exist forever in the future, now that it does exist.
I may have extrapolated Jetavan's words.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Alpha60

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In about 4 billion years, the Andromeda Galaxy and ours may collide.  I will have to check up on my collision insurance. :)

They will collide, unless something spetacular happens between now and then, like a vacuum metastability event, or one or both galaxies being destroyed by a galaxy-destroying superweapon (the Omegamatic from Commander Keen Episode 5 comes to mind).

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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the heat death of the universe won't be for several billion years.
It won't happen, and this doesn't mean "science is wrong". This kind of cosmological prevision doesn't account only for empirically observable laws, but also for the caeteris paribus assumption. The parousia of Christ will refute the caeteris paribus.

Actually, I see no reason why the parousia and thermal entropy are incompatible.  This universe, in a state of maximum entropy, would, I think, be a very clear fulfilment of the prophecy of a lake of fire.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Yes, most of the active posters here are without hope, and will die in their sins. This is why you should be looking elsewhere for Orthodox fellowship. It took me a long time here to admit this and leave for good.

On the contrary, every member of OCNet received into the Church has the same hope of salvation in Christ Jesus that you do, and even those members here who are dead-set against joining the Church still have hope, the non-Orthodox have hope according to the words of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, whose feast day was Saturday, and owing to the infinite mercy of God, we can legitimately pray for and hope for the salvation of all (it would be a theological error however to declare a belief that all must be saved; Universalism is an error, although one made by several holy saints such as Sts. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian).   Certainly however, OCNet has never had a member who was beyond all hope of salvation; the very idea of this would be a concession to the Calvinist doctrine of the foreordination of “reprobates” to damnation, which the Eastern Orthodox Church determined was a heresy at the Synod of Dositheus in Jerusalem on the occasion of the opening of the Church of the Nativity in Bethelehem, in 1672.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline RaphaCam

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Actually, I see no reason why the parousia and thermal entropy are incompatible.  This universe, in a state of maximum entropy, would, I think, be a very clear fulfilment of the prophecy of a lake of fire.
God's fire is spiritual. Plus, Christ will transfigure the world, he won't just announce a time where the current laws of physics push the universe to a maximum.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Alpha60

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don't tell me all of you believe in what science preaches!

Science is not a religion, and it doesn’t preach anything.  Literally, all science is, is a method for understanding or getting closer to the truth of things: you see something in nature, you form a hypothesis, which must be falsifiable, you do experiments to test your hypothesis, and then you publish the results to see if any theory that may have emerged from your work has any validity; other scientists will scrutinize your theory, your hypothesis, and of course, the methodology of your experiments, and if your theory survives this scrutiny and is compatible with other theories which have survived similiar scrutiny (or, in some cases, is validated to an extreme degree, but has the effect of invalidating many other theories or creating very challenging new questions; the classic example of this is quantum mechanics, which must be reconciled with classical Physics), it becomes a usable theory and something which can be usefully added to human knowledge.

Science is very important.  Computers and the Internet, the ability to resuscitate people suffering from respiratory or cardiac arrest, indeed, almost all medicine, the knowledge required to build buildings which do not collapse, or sewer systems and running water (technology lost in Western Europe in the Dark Ages, when all but one of the Aqueducts providing water to Rome broke down; these were not repaired until the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance), the knowledge of cement, the practice of agriculture, the ability to build motorcars and aeroplanes, all of this technical knowledge is science, or to be more precise, the fruit of science; our ability to do these things rests on our understanding of the underlying theories by which these things operate.  Sometimes these theories are wrong and are replaced by new theories which more accurately describe reality; only God knows everything.

However, science is literally the pursuit of Truth using Reason.  Jesus Christ is the Logos: the word Logos means, among other things, Reason; indeed, our Lord has declared himseld to be the Truth.  He is Truth and Reason incarnate.  Thus, science, if pursued ethically, is no threat to the Christian religion.

Some scientists are what I call “Atheist fundamentalists” and attempt to promote their preferred religious perspective by leaning on their scientific credentials, but as anyone with any knowledge of logic can tell you, this is a massive appeal to authority, a fallacy in the extreme.  And I would say that Richard Dawkins is certainly guilty of it, and Stephen Hawking for his part came dangerously close to leaning on that same fallacy with some of the metaphysical speculation contained in his Brief History of Time, which is a good book by the way; the late Stephen Hawking (requiascet in pacem) avoided such an abuse simply by the virtue of clearly delineating his musings, or answering questions of people who had previously been fallaciously and pointlessly searching for some form of theological validation from the realm of astrophysics (where this is needless; the Big Bang itself directly corresponds with Genesis 1, John 1, and the doctrine of creation ex nihlo; it disproves heretical ideas such as a belief in the eternal existence of matter, or the Mormon belief that God merely arranged existing matter, which of course reduces God to a mere demiurge and what is more, would suggest, if we believed Mormonism, which is perhaps the most scientifically refutable religion in existence, that matter was God!

Science does not and has not falsified Christianity, but it has completely undermined the creation myths of virtually every other religion, as well as their cosmology and eschatology.   For example, the forces of Qi or Chi, which are so essential to the Taoist religion and to Zen Buddhism, cannot be found scientifically, and medical practices derived from Taoist and Zen beliefs have been shown to be ineffective.

We have nothing to fear from science.  All Truth is God’s Truth.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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Actually, I see no reason why the parousia and thermal entropy are incompatible.  This universe, in a state of maximum entropy, would, I think, be a very clear fulfilment of the prophecy of a lake of fire.
God's fire is spiritual. Plus, Christ will transfigure the world, he won't just announce a time where the current laws of physics push the universe to a maximum.

I do not disagree with anything you said, except to the extent that, to me at least, I can see God’s fire  being realized in the desert of entropy.  Or we could consider the dead universe the Pit that Satan will be hurled into.  God being everywhere present and filling all things is a pretty compelling proposition, and a pretty frightening one, in a universe that has reached maximum entropy and essentially has nothing else in it, other than a random distribution of photons.

God is also omnipotent, and this omnipotence would allow him to transfigure our world, creating a new Heavens and a new Earth, while at the same time destroying this one by virtue of the natural processes He has already set in motion.

If heat death does not occur, if instead there is a Big Crunch, that would be even more obvious as a means by which God has already foreordained the destruction of this universe.

We should also I think be careful with how we interpret the scriptural words “heaven”, “earth” and “world”; the temptation to think of Earth and World as referring to the Universe as a whole, and to think or Heaven as another dimension of some sort, is strong, but there are a very large number of alternative definitions that are not incompatible with the faithl and what is more, the aforesaid definitom of heaven and earth would have been alien to the authors of Holy Scripture, some of whom may have heard of or understood the Greek concept of the Cosmos,  but we can’t say precisely the extent to which certain statements were intended to be taken cosmologically, with the exception of certain extremely obvious chapters such as Genesis 1 and John 1.

Genesis 1, by the way, is the only account of creation I have found in any religion which can be reasonably interpreted as a metaphorical description of the scientific account of the Big Bang, the formation of planets, and the origins of life.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.