Author Topic: Abba Heraclius and black demon  (Read 1157 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,675
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Abba Heraclius and black demon
« on: June 23, 2018, 01:40:06 PM »
Actually, that’s question of an acquaintance from my parish. He’s reading a Polish translation (prepared by Benedictine monks) of the stories and sayings of the Desert Fathers.

There is a story about Abba Heraclius and there is one sentences that he doesn’t understand “When I was getting to lay down, I saw on the mat black Negro [“czarnego Murzyna”, so it’s also like ‘black African”]”.  The annotation says “We will see the explanation in HM 8,3 – Murzyn [“Negro”, “African”] is a demon of pride”.

What does say the original – is this really “Negro”? What do say other translations? And what’s the story behind this?

I was trying to find this HM 8,3, but I failed. I found some other stories of Abba Heraclius, in English.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,830
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 02:11:05 PM »
Fwiw here's the Benedicta Ward English translation from The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (p. 72):

Quote
A brother who was attacked by the devil unburdened himself to Abba Heraclides. He told him the following in order to comfort him: 'An old man had a disciple who for many years had obeyed him in everything. Now one day when he was attacked by the devil, he made a prostration before the old man, saying, "Let me become a monk on my own." The old man replied, "Survey the district and we will build a cell for you." So they found a place a mile away. They went there and built the cell. The old man said to the brother, "What I tell you to do, do it. Each time you are afflicted, eat, drink, sleep; only do not come out of your cell until Saturday; then come to see me." The brother spent two days according to these orders, but the third day, a prey to accidie, he said to himself, "Why did the old man arrange that for me?" Standing up, he sang many psalms, and after sunset he ate, then went to lie down on his mat to sleep. But he saw an Ethiopian lying there who gnashed his teeth at him. Driven by great fear, he ran to the old man, knocked on his door and said, "Abba, have pity on me, open the door." The old man, seeing he had not obeyed his instructions did not open it till morning, very early; then he opened it, and found him outside imploring him to help him. Then, full of pity, he made him come inside. The other said, "Father, I need you; on my bed I saw a black Ethiopian, as I was going to sleep." The old man replied, "You suffered that because you did not keep to my instructions." Then, according to his capacity, he taught him the discipline of the solitary life, and in a short time he became a good monk.'

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2018, 02:13:33 PM »
well in orthodox icons the demons are depicted as pitch black with big lips and small eyes which tends to cause controversy in the west because it looks like a stereotypical black man!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Nathanael

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 378
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 05:23:06 PM »
This has nothing to do with modern rassism. Here is the link, which explains it: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/31216/summary
I have the text, if you cannot download it...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 05:26:41 PM by Nathanael »
Wisdom from Elder Seraphim - All our troubles come from...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eL2pwtVKs

The Goal of an Orthodox Monk: 'Incarnation of Love':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,807
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2018, 06:12:20 PM »
It’s not uncommon for demons to be described as “Ethiopians” in these texts. A similar thing happens in the tale of Theodora’s vision of the toll houses.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2018, 06:19:03 PM »
It’s not uncommon for demons to be described as “Ethiopians” in these texts. A similar thing happens in the tale of Theodora’s vision of the toll houses.

but why?  ???
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Online augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,708
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2018, 06:23:42 PM »
It’s not uncommon for demons to be described as “Ethiopians” in these texts. A similar thing happens in the tale of Theodora’s vision of the toll houses.

but why?  ???
ethnocentrism ? Xenophobia?
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2018, 06:45:05 PM »
It’s not uncommon for demons to be described as “Ethiopians” in these texts. A similar thing happens in the tale of Theodora’s vision of the toll houses.

but why?  ???
ethnocentrism ? Xenophobia?

ohhhh I understand. sorry! :-[
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • Goths and rivetheads are entering the Kingdom of God before me
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,075
  • Screwing up the Church since 2017
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2018, 07:45:07 PM »
It’s not uncommon for demons to be described as “Ethiopians” in these texts. A similar thing happens in the tale of Theodora’s vision of the toll houses.

but why?  ???
ethnocentrism ? Xenophobia?
There's a fascinating article about Ancient Greek ideas on race over on aeon.co. I am sure some of the ideas carried over in Greek to the time of the Fathers.
Too many theologists, not enough theologians.

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2018, 09:01:31 AM »
well in orthodox icons the demons are depicted as pitch black with big lips and small eyes which tends to cause controversy in the west because it looks like a stereotypical black man!

Not in the Ethiopian Orthodox church.  Also, there is a prominent EO, more specifically, Russian saint, in addition to St. Moses the Black, this chap was from the 17th century IIRC, who is venerated at present.  There are also African American Orthodox priests, an African American monk at Elder Ephrem’s monastery in Florence, AZ (a stavrophore), and one of the bishops of the ultra-conservative Old Calendarist Matthewite Synod is a black African (the rest are I believe of Hellenic ethnicity).

So really, this is so far from being an issue in our Church...
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2018, 09:06:57 AM »
Fwiw here's the Benedicta Ward English translation from The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (p. 72):

Quote
A brother who was attacked by the devil unburdened himself to Abba Heraclides. He told him the following in order to comfort him: 'An old man had a disciple who for many years had obeyed him in everything. Now one day when he was attacked by the devil, he made a prostration before the old man, saying, "Let me become a monk on my own." The old man replied, "Survey the district and we will build a cell for you." So they found a place a mile away. They went there and built the cell. The old man said to the brother, "What I tell you to do, do it. Each time you are afflicted, eat, drink, sleep; only do not come out of your cell until Saturday; then come to see me." The brother spent two days according to these orders, but the third day, a prey to accidie, he said to himself, "Why did the old man arrange that for me?" Standing up, he sang many psalms, and after sunset he ate, then went to lie down on his mat to sleep. But he saw an Ethiopian lying there who gnashed his teeth at him. Driven by great fear, he ran to the old man, knocked on his door and said, "Abba, have pity on me, open the door." The old man, seeing he had not obeyed his instructions did not open it till morning, very early; then he opened it, and found him outside imploring him to help him. Then, full of pity, he made him come inside. The other said, "Father, I need you; on my bed I saw a black Ethiopian, as I was going to sleep." The old man replied, "You suffered that because you did not keep to my instructions." Then, according to his capacity, he taught him the discipline of the solitary life, and in a short time he became a good monk.'

Fr. Lazarus el Antony, the solitary solitary at St. Anthony’s in Egypt, reported a similiar experience with someone who tried the solitary life in his cell, and indeed when Fr. Peter Owen-Jones, perhaps the most well-travelled spiritual tourist in Anglicanism, gave it a try, assuming there was not a cameraman secretly with him and he actually managed 30 days on his own in the cell, he was a bit climbing the walls less than halfway in.

One has to consider that solitary monks are doing voluntarily what in most “civilized” prison systems (that is to say, those that have set aside corporal punishment e.g. whipping) is the most extreme form of punishment available.  It should not be a surprise that many go completely bonkers in the process.

Indeed, if memory serves, St. Pachomius began organizing cenobitic monasteries in the mid 4th century in response to the problems the communities of semi-hermitic anchorites were having.  Monks falling jnto prelest and jumping off cliffs because demons convinced them they could fly.  The Sayings of the Desert Fathers, the Arena by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and the Philokalia document these problems in some detail.

This to me is more interesting than the context of ostensibly black demons; by the way, in the Life of St. Anthony, the devil appeared to St. Anthony at one point as an Ethiopian boy.  I suspect there was some racist fear of Ethiopians and Numidians in Egypt in the fourth century, based on these writings, but this did not prevent the church from spreading the Gospel there, and I would say that the Ethiopian Orthodox church is quite possibly the leading Orthodox church in terms of personal piety and devotion of all its members.  It is not lukewarm.  Conversely, and tragically, the Numidian Orthodox Church, like the Iberian (Caucasian/Azerbaijani) Orthodox Church, was exterminated by the Islamic population of the Sudan, which later gave us the most disagreeable Messianic figure of recent history in the form of Muhammed Ahmed al Mahdi, who managed to turn the Nile red by killing everyone in Khartoum.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 09:12:39 AM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2018, 09:18:07 AM »
By the way, Orthodox and Catholic Christians can both take solace in how relatively good the two confessions have been compared to everyone else on the issue of racism in recent centuries.  Particularly when we consider the largest Protestant denomination in the US, the Southern Baptist Convention, is one of the last remaining “Southern” churches which separated from the Northern part on the issue of slavery.  The other “Southern” churches such as the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, long ago reunited with their Northern half (although the continued existence of the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, which to be fair are now in full communion with the United Methodist Church, attest to a relative failure on the part of the United Methodists to reach out to other races beyond the narrow confines of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants).

I believe I have encountered more African Americans in the Orthodox Church than I ever even saw in a UMC church.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2018, 10:23:40 AM »
wise words Alpha60  :)
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,663
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: New Calendarist
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2018, 10:27:58 AM »
This has nothing to do with modern rassism. Here is the link, which explains it: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/31216/summary
I have the text, if you cannot download it...

For some reason I don't seem to be able to download it. Could you PM it for me?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 10:28:08 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2018, 10:29:58 AM »
jesus was not black!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,566
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: In Hell I'll be in good company
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2018, 04:04:09 PM »
Jesus was not a demon!
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2018, 04:17:59 PM »
Jesus was not a demon!

remember the Pharisees thought Jesus was Beelzebub the lord of flies but Jesus said Nah I'm not because why would the devil want to cast out demons it just does not make any sense. ;)
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,566
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: In Hell I'll be in good company
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2018, 04:19:12 PM »
Jesus was not a demon!

remember the Pharisees thought Jesus was Beelzebub the lord of flies but Jesus said Nah I'm not because why would the devil want to cast out demons it just does not make any sense. ;)

Jesus never said Nah!
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2018, 04:25:21 PM »
Jesus was not a demon!

remember the Pharisees thought Jesus was Beelzebub the lord of flies but Jesus said Nah I'm not because why would the devil want to cast out demons it just does not make any sense. ;)

Jesus never said Nah!

right!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2018, 08:56:54 PM »
jesus was not black!

What does this have to do with anything?  He wasn’t “white” either; however I would argue painting him with a bright skin tone in iconography is functionally justifiable as the smoke from vigil lamps will correct his skin tone to something realistic for a non-Hellenic Aramaic speaking Gallilean Jew.  I suspect he probably most closely resembled the Orthodox (Greco-Arabic and Syriac) of Palestine and Antioch, as these Christians are the most ethnically Judaic aside from the Ethiopians, who are Judaic but from a different lineage, and the endogamous ethnically Jewish group, survivors of a shipwreck if memory serves, who are members of the Syriac Orthodox Church (both the Jacobite and Malankara factions) in India.*

 For example, among these Levantine Christians, one will find Christians with Jewish last names or versions thereof, who are not descended from any recent Judaic person, in the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox churches (for example, Kaplan, Hanna, and so forth) in addition to names which I believe are of Aramean or Chaldean origin, like Yazigi or Saliba (I could be mistaken on this point, these might also be Hebraic). 

Among Syriac Christians one also finds similiar last names to some Aramaic Jewish last names; a personal friend of mine was the French chef Michel bar David, of Judaic descent, whereas in the Syriac Orthodox church we have St. Dionysius Bar Salibi and St. Gregorios Bar Hebraeus (who was certainly of Judaic descent).

*It seems not unreasonable that the Indian Orthodox might largely be descended from the Kochin Jews who were already in Kerala and who were using a Syriac or Aramaic tongue during the ministry of Sts. Thomas, Addai and Mari; that said it is also I think a certainty that numerous gentiles were converted as well; although the Acts of Thomas are apocryphal scriptures associated with the Tatianists and Encratites, the degree to which they stress missionary activity among the pagans, and the degree to which this correlates to traditional hagiographies, would seemingly confirm this.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,675
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2018, 09:02:12 PM »
in addition to names which I believe are of Aramean or Chaldean origin, like Yazigi or Saliba (I could be mistaken on this point, these might also be Hebraic). 

Yazigi seems to be Turkish ("writer"), but it doesn't mean famous Antiochian Christians from this big family are of Turkish descent. Rather, it was because they were living under Ottomans, and in Arabic more important are name of ancestors, plus nisba (if you have it).

Saliba is close to Arabic "Cross' (Salib), in Syriac it's Slibo, I think. In Semitic names it' sometimes difficult to say definitely if that's Hebrew, Arabic, Syriac...
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2018, 09:25:53 PM »
in addition to names which I believe are of Aramean or Chaldean origin, like Yazigi or Saliba (I could be mistaken on this point, these might also be Hebraic). 

Yazigi seems to be Turkish ("writer"), but it doesn't mean famous Antiochian Christians from this big family are of Turkish descent. Rather, it was because they were living under Ottomans, and in Arabic more important are name of ancestors, plus nisba (if you have it).

Saliba is close to Arabic "Cross' (Salib), in Syriac it's Slibo, I think. In Semitic names it' sometimes difficult to say definitely if that's Hebrew, Arabic, Syriac...

That being said, I would find it deeply depressing if in the entire ethnoreligious demographic of Levantine Christians there were none descended from Turks who converted and managed to avoid execution, or who were members of strange sects like the Alevis who might not care if they converted to Christianity (since Alevism looks like crypto-Christianity or a syncretization of Christian and Islamic beliefs and practices).  I do recall at least one Turkish saint who was alas immediately executed for his conversion, and is a saint on that basis.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2018, 04:13:35 AM »
Jesus Christ’s
Skin tone is tanned like in traditional Slavic icons


sadly nowadays in the Russian church Christ is depicted as the whitest of the whites



"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,675
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2018, 05:30:52 AM »
in addition to names which I believe are of Aramean or Chaldean origin, like Yazigi or Saliba (I could be mistaken on this point, these might also be Hebraic). 

Yazigi seems to be Turkish ("writer"), but it doesn't mean famous Antiochian Christians from this big family are of Turkish descent. Rather, it was because they were living under Ottomans, and in Arabic more important are name of ancestors, plus nisba (if you have it).

Saliba is close to Arabic "Cross' (Salib), in Syriac it's Slibo, I think. In Semitic names it' sometimes difficult to say definitely if that's Hebrew, Arabic, Syriac...

That being said, I would find it deeply depressing if in the entire ethnoreligious demographic of Levantine Christians there were none descended from Turks who converted and managed to avoid execution, or who were members of strange sects like the Alevis who might not care if they converted to Christianity (since Alevism looks like crypto-Christianity or a syncretization of Christian and Islamic beliefs and practices).  I do recall at least one Turkish saint who was alas immediately executed for his conversion, and is a saint on that basis.

It may be rather reverse, I mean Turkish that are in fact of (some) Arabic or Aramaic origin. Still in Turkey, close to border with Syria, there live Syrian Arabs (including, unfortunately in small numbers, Orthodox ones).
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2018, 05:53:19 AM »
Jesus Christ’s
Skin tone is tanned like in traditional Slavic icons


sadly nowadays in the Russian church Christ is depicted as the whitest of the whites



In the second image, our Lord doesn’t look especially white to me; I have known many Syriac Orthodox with lighter skin than that (for example, the current Patriarch HH Ignatius Aphrem II or his predecessor HH Ignatius Zakka Iwas of eternal memory); if you really want to see a whitewashed, Nordic Jesus with blonde hair, blue eyes et cetera, look at Mormon iconography, which depicts him in that manner, in addition to other peculiarities.

Also consider that the smoke from candles and vigil lamps darkens the figures over time.   We have several famous icons of the Theotokos in which she appears to be almost fully black due to the years and years of smoke accretion.  In some cases this renders the icon unreadable and a replacement is required.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 05:55:37 AM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2018, 06:55:35 AM »

Also consider that the smoke from candles and vigil lamps darkens the figures over time.   We have several famous icons of the Theotokos in which she appears to be almost fully black due to the years and years of smoke accretion.  In some cases this renders the icon unreadable and a replacement is required.

You might not be aware that the blackened varnish (olifa) on old icons can be removed, and a new layer reapplied. The underlying tempera pigments can be quite vivid. As was the case when the Sistine Chapel paintings were cleaned in the 1990s.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline CarolS

  • Lurker Extraordinaire
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2018, 11:18:06 AM »
It seems to me that the term ethiopian in some texts was a generic way of describing a being that was black in color. I imagine these black demons were not at all similar to a real Ethiopian human.  Rather imagine seeing something that does not reflect any light.
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2018, 11:28:37 AM »

Quote
Also consider that the smoke from candles and vigil lamps darkens the figures over time.   We have several famous icons of the Theotokos in which she appears to be almost fully black due to the years and years of smoke accretion.  In some cases, this renders the icon unreadable and a replacement is required.

this is funny because this is one of the many reasons African Americans put forward to try to prove the Jesus Christ was black or that Russians used to be black it makes me laugh because I'm quite white and not dark skinned but I agree that my ancestors did have a tanned skin color unlike the modern white Russian person.
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,389
  • Faith: without works is dead.
  • Jurisdiction: Foolishness to the Greeks
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2018, 11:34:58 AM »
well in orthodox icons the demons are depicted as pitch black with big lips and small eyes which tends to cause controversy in the west because it looks like a stereotypical black man!

Not in the Ethiopian Orthodox church.  Also, there is a prominent EO, more specifically, Russian saint, in addition to St. Moses the Black, this chap was from the 17th century IIRC, who is venerated at present.  There are also African American Orthodox priests, an African American monk at Elder Ephrem’s monastery in Florence, AZ (a stavrophore), and one of the bishops of the ultra-conservative Old Calendarist Matthewite Synod is a black African (the rest are I believe of Hellenic ethnicity).

So really, this is so far from being an issue in our Church...

It's the first time I've seen someone argue, "But I have a black friend from several centuries ago..."

I can't speak for Orthodoxy in the U.S. outside the south, but here blacks are an exceedingly disproportionate  minority in the Church compared to the population at large, American-born even moreso. The fields are white with the harvest indeed.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,807
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2018, 11:47:10 AM »
It's the first time I've seen someone argue, "But I have a black friend from several centuries ago..."

Not so fast!

Heimbach has himself an icon of St. Moses the Black and we're all big fans of Oriental Christianity.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2018, 12:45:28 PM »

Also consider that the smoke from candles and vigil lamps darkens the figures over time.   We have several famous icons of the Theotokos in which she appears to be almost fully black due to the years and years of smoke accretion.  In some cases this renders the icon unreadable and a replacement is required.

You might not be aware that the blackened varnish (olifa) on old icons can be removed, and a new layer reapplied. The underlying tempera pigments can be quite vivid. As was the case when the Sistine Chapel paintings were cleaned in the 1990s.

ROFL!  This is one of the more amusing examples I have seen someone give.   The ceiling of the Sisitine Chapel, the “restoration” of which was completed in 1989, was in fact severely damaged by the process, as the photographic record shows; entire layers of detail on the ceiling, such as the fluting on pilasters, and more importantly, the details on faces, were erased; art critics loudly condemned the “restoration” as a travesty, and rightly so.  The bright colors it produced, we have no idea if these were what Michaelangelo actually desired in the long run for the ceiling; being a competent renaissance man, he was doubtless aware that smoke would, over time, cause the darkening of his painting, and it seems evident that he envisaged this change occurring just like the natural change of flavor that accompanies the ageing of vintage wine. 

I would cite the chemical damage inflicted upon the Sistine Chapel ceiling as one of the worst examples of Roman Catholic “wreckovation,” except for the rather compelling fact that the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is so far removed from canonical principles of iconography as to count as mere decoration, but, as decoration goes, it was rather splendid, and it has been damaged, and the damage inflicted upon it has been horrendous and is believed to be beyond repair (although I myself suspect that using an advanced process, it could be possible to create a carbonaceous coating which would restore missing details and also the natural dark coloration of the painting, but given how much of a disaster the previous restoration was, perhaps the best choice of action is to leave it alone, lest it be ruined further).  There is also a compelling case to be made for the use of special oil lamps with filtered exhaust, or electric lighting, in lieu of candles, wherever possible in the Sistine Chapel, since it seems that a further accretion of smoke, should some cretinous fool persuade the Vatican to let them attempt to remove it, could prove fatal.

At any rate, I would support the use of a chemical process to restore smoke-and-saliva damaged icons only where these icons are uncommonly good, where restoring them would be cheaper than replacement, and where the alternative would be to discard them.

For that matter, who would dare to attempt to “restore” a holy myrhh streaming icon?  The idea of discarding it due to pigmentation failure seems almost sacr   I’m sure it has been done, but it seems almost a criminal attack on our church history to do so.  I am a very strong proponent of leaving good things as they are.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2018, 12:49:09 PM »
well in orthodox icons the demons are depicted as pitch black with big lips and small eyes which tends to cause controversy in the west because it looks like a stereotypical black man!

Not in the Ethiopian Orthodox church.  Also, there is a prominent EO, more specifically, Russian saint, in addition to St. Moses the Black, this chap was from the 17th century IIRC, who is venerated at present.  There are also African American Orthodox priests, an African American monk at Elder Ephrem’s monastery in Florence, AZ (a stavrophore), and one of the bishops of the ultra-conservative Old Calendarist Matthewite Synod is a black African (the rest are I believe of Hellenic ethnicity).

So really, this is so far from being an issue in our Church...

It's the first time I've seen someone argue, "But I have a black friend from several centuries ago..."

I can't speak for Orthodoxy in the U.S. outside the south, but here blacks are an exceedingly disproportionate  minority in the Church compared to the population at large, American-born even moreso. The fields are white with the harvest indeed.

You haven’t seen the meme of this saint which became popular in the wake of the Heimbach incident?

Btw there was, or is, a Western Rite African American priest, in ROCOR, I think.   Fr. Ambrose. If memory serves, he is in upstate New York and uses the translation of the Ambrosian Rite missal produced by Hieromonk Aidan Keller (at least I hope he does; it was a beautiful translation and it would be a pity if it has been set aside).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,389
  • Faith: without works is dead.
  • Jurisdiction: Foolishness to the Greeks
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2018, 12:49:43 PM »
It's the first time I've seen someone argue, "But I have a black friend from several centuries ago..."

Not so fast!

Heimbach has himself an icon of St. Moses the Black and we're all big fans of Oriental Christianity.

LOL!
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
  • Christ Enthroned
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2018, 12:51:54 PM »

Also consider that the smoke from candles and vigil lamps darkens the figures over time.   We have several famous icons of the Theotokos in which she appears to be almost fully black due to the years and years of smoke accretion.  In some cases this renders the icon unreadable and a replacement is required.

You might not be aware that the blackened varnish (olifa) on old icons can be removed, and a new layer reapplied. The underlying tempera pigments can be quite vivid. As was the case when the Sistine Chapel paintings were cleaned in the 1990s.

ROFL!  This is one of the more amusing examples I have seen someone give.   The ceiling of the Sisitine Chapel, the “restoration” of which was completed in 1989, was in fact severely damaged by the process, as the photographic record shows; entire layers of detail on the ceiling, such as the fluting on pilasters, and more importantly, the details on faces, were erased; art critics loudly condemned the “restoration” as a travesty, and rightly so.  The bright colors it produced, we have no idea if these were what Michaelangelo actually desired in the long run for the ceiling; being a competent renaissance man, he was doubtless aware that smoke would, over time, cause the darkening of his painting, and it seems evident that he envisaged this change occurring just like the natural change of flavor that accompanies the ageing of vintage wine. 

I would cite the chemical damage inflicted upon the Sistine Chapel ceiling as one of the worst examples of Roman Catholic “wreckovation,” except for the rather compelling fact that the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is so far removed from canonical principles of iconography as to count as mere decoration, but, as decoration goes, it was rather splendid, and it has been damaged, and the damage inflicted upon it has been horrendous and is believed to be beyond repair (although I myself suspect that using an advanced process, it could be possible to create a carbonaceous coating which would restore missing details and also the natural dark coloration of the painting, but given how much of a disaster the previous restoration was, perhaps the best choice of action is to leave it alone, lest it be ruined further).  There is also a compelling case to be made for the use of special oil lamps with filtered exhaust, or electric lighting, in lieu of candles, wherever possible in the Sistine Chapel, since it seems that a further accretion of smoke, should some cretinous fool persuade the Vatican to let them attempt to remove it, could prove fatal.

At any rate, I would support the use of a chemical process to restore smoke-and-saliva damaged icons only where these icons are uncommonly good, where restoring them would be cheaper than replacement, and where the alternative would be to discard them.

For that matter, who would dare to attempt to “restore” a holy myrhh streaming icon?  The idea of discarding it due to pigmentation failure seems almost sacr   I’m sure it has been done, but it seems almost a criminal attack on our church history to do so.  I am a very strong proponent of leaving good things as they are.

the work on the sistene chapal was horrendus and what it left behind was even worse!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2018, 12:55:19 PM »

Quote
Also consider that the smoke from candles and vigil lamps darkens the figures over time.   We have several famous icons of the Theotokos in which she appears to be almost fully black due to the years and years of smoke accretion.  In some cases, this renders the icon unreadable and a replacement is required.

this is funny because this is one of the many reasons African Americans put forward to try to prove the Jesus Christ was black or that Russians used to be black it makes me laugh because I'm quite white and not dark skinned but I agree that my ancestors did have a tanned skin color unlike the modern white Russian person.

If memory serves, some of the genes responsible for dark pigmentation are recessive, which led to the terrible discrimination against mixed race persons of partial African ethnicity, who were called “mulattos” or in the case of the progeny of enslaved ethnic Africans and Native Americans, “Maroons.”  Terms like these infuriate me, although what really boils me over is that to the average racist, all of these people, even those only distantly descended from persons of African or Asian or Melanesian or Aboriginal Australians, or Arabs, all of these people get labelled with the N word.

One of the beautiful things about the early Church was the extent to which it rejected racism and immediately sent missionaries to all the ethnic groups with which it could communicate (initially, Greek and Aramaic speakers, but later, Latin speakers, Ethiopians, Armenians, Slavs and others).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,712
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2018, 02:45:00 PM »
oh goodness  gracious..


all that was said is that they would become brighter...not that in every cause we should go out and do so...


you all just need stuff to expound your knowledge upon whether it is rubutting what the person said...or what you assume was said...

may i suggest a hobby not involving orthodoxy?
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2018, 12:11:02 AM »
The bright colors it produced, we have no idea if these were what Michaelangelo actually desired in the long run for the ceiling; being a competent renaissance man, he was doubtless aware that smoke would, over time, cause the darkening of his painting, and it seems evident that he envisaged this change occurring just like the natural change of flavor that accompanies the ageing of vintage wine. 

Spoken by someone who clearly has never set eyes on an icon painted with egg tempera before the varnish is applied. Or an old icon after blackened olifa has been removed.  ::)

Quote
For that matter, who would dare to attempt to “restore” a holy myrhh streaming icon?  The idea of discarding it due to pigmentation failure seems almost sacr   I’m sure it has been done, but it seems almost a criminal attack on our church history to do so.

DeniseDenise is right. Stop putting words into other people's mouths.  >:(

Quote
I am a very strong proponent of leaving good things as they are.

Says he who has proposed all sorts of liturgical innovations in his time here.   ::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Alpha60

  • Pray without ceasing!
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,395
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2018, 07:26:36 PM »
The bright colors it produced, we have no idea if these were what Michaelangelo actually desired in the long run for the ceiling; being a competent renaissance man, he was doubtless aware that smoke would, over time, cause the darkening of his painting, and it seems evident that he envisaged this change occurring just like the natural change of flavor that accompanies the ageing of vintage wine. 

Spoken by someone who clearly has never set eyes on an icon painted with egg tempera before the varnish is applied. Or an old icon after blackened olifa has been removed.  ::)

Quote
For that matter, who would dare to attempt to “restore” a holy myrhh streaming icon?  The idea of discarding it due to pigmentation failure seems almost sacr   I’m sure it has been done, but it seems almost a criminal attack on our church history to do so.

DeniseDenise is right. Stop putting words into other people's mouths.  >:(

Quote
I am a very strong proponent of leaving good things as they are.

Says he who has proposed all sorts of liturgical innovations in his time here.   ::)

Your closing barb is of course wildly inaccurate: I have, in all discussions of the liturgy, stressed the importance of leaving intact everything that presently exists and is praiseworthy, including several things which some people want to remove (for example, tonal post-Nikonian Slavonic hymondy, such as what one finds in the Obikhod); my desire to provide us with access to liturgical treasures which have become obscure, although not in all cases extinct, due to a combination of the Great Schism, late Byzantine decadence, Turkocratia, Nikonization, and the disastrous new 19th century Typikon and the equally disastrous New Calendar, has, in each expression, been tempered with the proposal of safeguards to avoid the appearance of innovation or the actual destruction of cultural and liturgical heritage, and calling for us to use, for instance, the Divine Liturgy of St. James, in accordance with how it was used before the aforementioned disasters, is as innovative as the Russian Orthodox Old Believers continuing to cross themselves with two fingers.*

Meanwhile, the horrendous results of the failed restoration of religious artwork rather providentially present themselves to us, that we may contemplate the dangers of allowing unqualified persons to restore artwork, and the superfluous nature of such restorations even when competently executed (which the Sistine Chapel restoration certainly was not; I am utterly astonished that anyone would use that as an exemplar when discussing the relative merits of any kind of artwork restoration):

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/26/second-spanish-church-hit-botched-restoration-job/

*As an amusing aside, the sole instance on which a YiaYia prepared to offer admonition to me about anything occurred in a GoArch parish, when, due to incredibly bad arthritis, I was unable to get the digits of my right hand into the proper Greco-Nikonian Trinitarian position, resulting in my crossing myself with less than ideal organization of the right handed digits; fortunately the mere mention of the word arthritis satisfied her of my piety and my regret on this manner, and since that time I have been able to group the fingers in question with more precision; I do not think I could handle the Old Calendarist gesture or the intense speed and precision with which they cross themselves at present.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2018, 11:30:47 PM »

Your closing barb is of course wildly inaccurate: I have, in all discussions of the liturgy, stressed the importance of leaving intact everything that presently exists and is praiseworthy

A look through your posting history, including threads you've started, will easily show this is simply not true. You say you advocate leaving things alone, all while speculating wildly on what you would change liturgically if you were in charge.  >:(




Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,830
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2018, 06:13:55 PM »
Read the following today and thought of this thread:

Ethiopian Demons: Male Sexuality, the Black-Skinned Other, and the Monastic Self, by David Brakke

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,240
  • I was almost normal once, but I got better.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2018, 06:28:28 PM »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox ~

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,860
Re: Abba Heraclius and black demon
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 08:26:53 PM »
Actually, that’s question of an acquaintance from my parish. He’s reading a Polish translation (prepared by Benedictine monks) of the stories and sayings of the Desert Fathers.

There is a story about Abba Heraclius and there is one sentences that he doesn’t understand “When I was getting to lay down, I saw on the mat black Negro [“czarnego Murzyna”, so it’s also like ‘black African”]”.  The annotation says “We will see the explanation in HM 8,3 – Murzyn [“Negro”, “African”] is a demon of pride”.

What does say the original – is this really “Negro”? What do say other translations? And what’s the story behind this?

I was trying to find this HM 8,3, but I failed. I found some other stories of Abba Heraclius, in English.

no, negroes or African Americans are not demons.
The Sign and Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary