Author Topic: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found  (Read 549 times)

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Offline biro

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Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« on: June 21, 2018, 09:24:55 PM »
https://www.archaeology.org/issues/304-1807/from-the-trenches/6694-trenches-egypt-lisht-papyrus-prayer

An 'alternate version' of the Abraham and Isaac story has been translated. It was discovered in 1934. It posits that Abraham went ahead and sacrificed Isaac.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 09:25:46 PM by biro »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 10:07:05 PM »
What a supposition.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 10:16:35 PM »
Been there, done that.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:16:49 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2018, 12:26:49 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:27:57 AM by RaphaCam »
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Online Volnutt

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2018, 02:02:30 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.
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Offline Orthodox_Slav

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2018, 08:17:11 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2018, 08:37:30 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

Offline Orthodox_Slav

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2018, 08:44:36 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

right! sorry, big man!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2018, 11:02:03 AM »
Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?
Some of them kinda had Cain for a hero...  :-\  The great but unfortunately terribly misguided writer Hermann Hesse brought this conception back in his novel Demian. Good book, but I prefer Steppenwolf: deeper, more mature, less Gnostic and gave an awesome band their name.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2018, 11:08:48 AM »
Quote from: that Mor Ephrem guy
Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

right! sorry, big man!

Wow, insulting him to his face?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:09:21 AM by Asteriktos »

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2018, 11:13:00 AM »
Quote from: that Mor Ephrem guy
Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

right! sorry, big man!

Wow, insulting him to his face?

aye, he thinks he's proper solid!
"Two Romes fell, a third stands, and there will not be a fourth one."—Philotheus of Pskov

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2018, 07:11:15 PM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

Well, I mean it's interesting to me that so many Gnostics would put so much emphasis on one of them at all. Maybe it's just because Seth was the replacement child for the first couple, and I guess that is kind of interesting.

Though if I were to go digging for esoterica in Genesis, I would be more interested in Enosh personally ("men began to call upon the name of the Lord").
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2018, 09:29:07 PM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

Well, I mean it's interesting to me that so many Gnostics would put so much emphasis on one of them at all. Maybe it's just because Seth was the replacement child for the first couple, and I guess that is kind of interesting.

Though if I were to go digging for esoterica in Genesis, I would be more interested in Enosh personally ("men began to call upon the name of the Lord").
...even though Eve was the first to call upon the name of the LORD.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2018, 11:15:41 PM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

Well, I mean it's interesting to me that so many Gnostics would put so much emphasis on one of them at all. Maybe it's just because Seth was the replacement child for the first couple, and I guess that is kind of interesting.

Though if I were to go digging for esoterica in Genesis, I would be more interested in Enosh personally ("men began to call upon the name of the Lord").
...even though Eve was the first to call upon the name of the LORD.

Yeah, it's a pretty weird line. There's a lot of Rabbinical stuff trying to reconcile the two, IIRC.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2018, 12:16:26 AM »
I don't see any contradiction, even in English the verb "to begin" can denote the beginning of a process even if it wasn't the first time it happened.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline HardHead

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Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2018, 10:44:02 PM »
An 'alternate version' of the Abraham and Isaac story has been translated. It was discovered in 1934. It posits that Abraham went ahead and sacrificed Isaac.

This may indeed be a new translation or discovery but it may not be so unusual. Have a look here.

https://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/are-there-other-versions-of-the-abraham-and-isaac-story-where-abraham-actually-kills-isaac

"Still, other lesser-known alternative endings cropped up outside of the biblical literature in Jewish midrash — commentaries or interpretations of biblical stories usually written by rabbis in the first 10 centuries. In one such midrash, Isaac was wounded when Abraham began the sacrificial act. Isaac was then carried to Paradise where he remained for three years while he healed. In another story, Isaac literally died of fright while he was bound upon the altar and his soul flew out of him before Yahweh restored it to him with dewdrops for the Resurrection of the dead. In yet another one, Isaac’s body was reduced to ash on the sacrificial pyre and the Holy One again revived him with life-giving dew."