Author Topic: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found  (Read 454 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,810
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
  • Faith: GOAA
  • Jurisdiction: Antonis said I'm not Christian, so...
Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« on: June 21, 2018, 09:24:55 PM »
https://www.archaeology.org/issues/304-1807/from-the-trenches/6694-trenches-egypt-lisht-papyrus-prayer

An 'alternate version' of the Abraham and Isaac story has been translated. It was discovered in 1934. It posits that Abraham went ahead and sacrificed Isaac.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 09:25:46 PM by biro »
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,638
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Censer-following zapivka-dipper
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 10:07:05 PM »
What a supposition.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,848
  • Tenzin and Desmond
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 10:16:35 PM »
Been there, done that.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:16:49 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,304
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2018, 12:26:49 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:27:57 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,980
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2018, 02:02:30 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.
On an extended hiatus from this site. Please pray for me and my family.

I'm sorry to any that my posts might offend.

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 511
  • Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2018, 08:17:11 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!
not every quiet man is humble but every humble man is quiet         st Isaac the Syrian

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,853
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to FOCOF
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2018, 08:37:30 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 511
  • Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2018, 08:44:36 AM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

right! sorry, big man!
not every quiet man is humble but every humble man is quiet         st Isaac the Syrian

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,304
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2018, 11:02:03 AM »
Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?
Some of them kinda had Cain for a hero...  :-\  The great but unfortunately terribly misguided writer Hermann Hesse brought this conception back in his novel Demian. Good book, but I prefer Steppenwolf: deeper, more mature, less Gnostic and gave an awesome band their name.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,301
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2018, 11:08:48 AM »
Quote from: that Mor Ephrem guy
Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

right! sorry, big man!

Wow, insulting him to his face?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:09:21 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Orthodox_Slav

  • A sinful servant of God
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 511
  • Господи Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2018, 11:13:00 AM »
Quote from: that Mor Ephrem guy
Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

right! sorry, big man!

Wow, insulting him to his face?

aye, he thinks he's proper solid!
not every quiet man is humble but every humble man is quiet         st Isaac the Syrian

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,980
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2018, 07:11:15 PM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

Well, I mean it's interesting to me that so many Gnostics would put so much emphasis on one of them at all. Maybe it's just because Seth was the replacement child for the first couple, and I guess that is kind of interesting.

Though if I were to go digging for esoterica in Genesis, I would be more interested in Enosh personally ("men began to call upon the name of the Lord").
On an extended hiatus from this site. Please pray for me and my family.

I'm sorry to any that my posts might offend.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,848
  • Tenzin and Desmond
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2018, 09:29:07 PM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

Well, I mean it's interesting to me that so many Gnostics would put so much emphasis on one of them at all. Maybe it's just because Seth was the replacement child for the first couple, and I guess that is kind of interesting.

Though if I were to go digging for esoterica in Genesis, I would be more interested in Enosh personally ("men began to call upon the name of the Lord").
...even though Eve was the first to call upon the name of the LORD.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,980
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2018, 11:15:41 PM »
The fact there's a prayer from Seth makes it almost certain this was a Gnostic group practicing the spiritual Anti-Semitism that characterised most of their sects. Some of them stressed the sacrificial aspects of the Hebrew religion, and therefore villanised the priesthood.

That makes a lot of sense.


It's always strange to me that so many Gnostics latched on to Seth.

yeah weird why did they latch on to seth!

Cain isn’t exactly a hero and Abel’s dead?

Well, I mean it's interesting to me that so many Gnostics would put so much emphasis on one of them at all. Maybe it's just because Seth was the replacement child for the first couple, and I guess that is kind of interesting.

Though if I were to go digging for esoterica in Genesis, I would be more interested in Enosh personally ("men began to call upon the name of the Lord").
...even though Eve was the first to call upon the name of the LORD.

Yeah, it's a pretty weird line. There's a lot of Rabbinical stuff trying to reconcile the two, IIRC.
On an extended hiatus from this site. Please pray for me and my family.

I'm sorry to any that my posts might offend.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,304
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2018, 12:16:26 AM »
I don't see any contradiction, even in English the verb "to begin" can denote the beginning of a process even if it wasn't the first time it happened.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline HardHead

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Canada
Re: Papyrus with alternate story of Abraham and Isaac found
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2018, 10:44:02 PM »
An 'alternate version' of the Abraham and Isaac story has been translated. It was discovered in 1934. It posits that Abraham went ahead and sacrificed Isaac.

This may indeed be a new translation or discovery but it may not be so unusual. Have a look here.

https://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/are-there-other-versions-of-the-abraham-and-isaac-story-where-abraham-actually-kills-isaac

"Still, other lesser-known alternative endings cropped up outside of the biblical literature in Jewish midrash — commentaries or interpretations of biblical stories usually written by rabbis in the first 10 centuries. In one such midrash, Isaac was wounded when Abraham began the sacrificial act. Isaac was then carried to Paradise where he remained for three years while he healed. In another story, Isaac literally died of fright while he was bound upon the altar and his soul flew out of him before Yahweh restored it to him with dewdrops for the Resurrection of the dead. In yet another one, Isaac’s body was reduced to ash on the sacrificial pyre and the Holy One again revived him with life-giving dew."