Author Topic: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage  (Read 8818 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #225 on: June 17, 2018, 10:00:23 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

I've been mulling the above over while the conversation here went on. It seems like an expression the 'house of cards' theory of the Church--one little shift and the whole house comes tumbling down. That might explain why some find or would find the presence of openly gay/lesbian people in their congregation such an existential threat: it endangers their own faith. After all, who doesn't know at least one person who joined the Orthodox Church because the X church down the street they were a member of started offering same-sex weddings? So those of us with homosexual inclinations have to keep a low profile so as not to ruin Christianity for our weaker brothers and sisters who are not so tempted. Doing this out of love for them is perhaps one of the ways we carry our cross.

Most of the converts I know joined because their previous churches were not right-wing enough. They were all, "I used to be an Episcopalian, but then they kinda went a little too far." You know that's code words for "they accept gay people and ordain women."

Indeed, but I tried to be an Episcopalian at a conservative parish; the problem was their Eucharist was literally poison.   Every time I had it I upset my stomach.  In contrast partaking of the Orthodox Eucharist has on several occasions delivered me from severe physical or mental pain.

But if we abandon the ancient faith, which we would do if we performed homosexual marriage or ordained homosexual priests, or female priests, I think our Eucharist might become toxic as well.  We would cease to be the Church, and whatever Continuing Orthodox breakaway group or groups that resulted would be the Church.

Fortunately I’m not worried about this, since the overwhelming majority of Orthodox are opposed to gay marriage (the largest EO church is the Russian Orthodox Church, the largest OO church is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and I can conceive of no scenario other than a Bolshevik or Derg revival and a fake Living Church kind of setup, which would be offset by the parishes abroad, for instance, in ROCOR), going for that. 

I would note the Orthodox church does accept homosexual people, we love them, we simply object to sexual relations between them and also to misogyny, if it is a factor in their preference (if they are homosexual due to a hatred of the opposite sex). 

Lastly, the case you raise about not being able to hug a grieving social worker due to social norms is another issue, and I would argue that it is actually the increase in homosexuality that makes people of the same sex less comfortable hugging or being close in a non-sexual manner. 
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #226 on: June 17, 2018, 02:17:12 PM »
I would note the Orthodox church does accept homosexual people, we love them, we simply object to sexual relations between them and also to misogyny, if it is a factor in their preference (if they are homosexual due to a hatred of the opposite sex).   

Spewing a little gratuitous venom with your 'love' again, I see.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #227 on: June 17, 2018, 02:40:03 PM »
Yeah, because thete are no gay women.

Also, never mind that lots of straight people do the same sex acts as gays. Let them get married anyway. Never call them to account.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #228 on: June 17, 2018, 03:38:00 PM »
I would note the Orthodox church does accept homosexual people, we love them, we simply object to sexual relations between them and also to misogyny, if it is a factor in their preference (if they are homosexual due to a hatred of the opposite sex).   

Spewing a little gratuitous venom with your 'love' again, I see.

No, rather, I was referring to some homosexuals, who do actually hate the opposite sex, and admit as much; we see this in some Lesbian literature today.  The ancient church also recognized it; there is a canon in the Pedalion which prohibits anyone becoming a monk who has a contempt for the opposite sex or a loathing for the idea of sex and marriage in general.   This is what I was referring to.

I would note that the love I extend to homosexuals is like the love I extend to adulterers: I love them according to their person, but I abhorr their conduct.  For that matter, to the extent that I am a terrible and repulsive sinner, who of late has developed a new vice of being miserly, a new passion I have to confront, I expect you and other Christians to abhorr my sins, while loving me.

There are churches I should add, those of the “prosperity gospel”, which would have me believe my newfound miserliness and reignited avarice are not sinful at all, and they are on a par with how, for example, the mainline Protestant churches are treating the issue of homosexuality.  I don’t want to be told that my flaws are good, but rather to find exhortation and support in suppressing these passions, so I don’t obsess over how much money I have, et cetera, particularly given the degree to which I have been blessed and the extent of destitution I briefly experienced due to the issues surrounding the death of my late father.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #229 on: June 17, 2018, 03:44:53 PM »
Yeah, because thete are no gay women.

Also, never mind that lots of straight people do the same sex acts as gays. Let them get married anyway. Never call them to account.

On this point, the ancient canons apply precisely the same canonical penalties to married couples that engage in sodomy, as persons of the same sex.  Sodomy is prohibited in both cases and treated as one sin by St. John the Faster, who does not differentiate between married couples or homosexuals with regards to the offense, but rather in both cases imposes excommunication that is roughly twice as long as excommunication for adultery; it works out to be something more than 15 years.  I don’t believe the severe penances suggested by St. John the Faster should be routinely, if ever, employed by the Church, except perhaps in the most extreme cases where there might be some aggravating element (since his canon does not, for example, differentiate between pederasty and homosexuality between consenting adults), but they do provide an invaluable insight into how the Fathers viewed these sins.

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #230 on: June 17, 2018, 04:51:28 PM »
Yeah, because thete are no gay women.

Also, never mind that lots of straight people do the same sex acts as gays. Let them get married anyway. Never call them to account.

On this point, the ancient canons apply precisely the same canonical penalties to married couples that engage in sodomy, as persons of the same sex.  Sodomy is prohibited in both cases and treated as one sin by St. John the Faster, who does not differentiate between married couples or homosexuals with regards to the offense, but rather in both cases imposes excommunication that is roughly twice as long as excommunication for adultery; it works out to be something more than 15 years.  I don’t believe the severe penances suggested by St. John the Faster should be routinely, if ever, employed by the Church, except perhaps in the most extreme cases where there might be some aggravating element (since his canon does not, for example, differentiate between pederasty and homosexuality between consenting adults), but they do provide an invaluable insight into how the Fathers viewed these sins.
"sodomy" isn't an Orthodox canonical term: it doesn't enter the Orthodox world until Peter adopted western ways.

St. John the Faster's canons, as the Pedalion admits, were never adopted with Ecumenical sanction. What insight does that fact given into the views of the Fathers?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #231 on: June 17, 2018, 04:53:10 PM »
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.

Which is why it can hardly be considered sex, since it's nothing but one using the other in a masturbatory act.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #232 on: June 17, 2018, 04:54:20 PM »
There are churches I should add, those of the “prosperity gospel”, which would have me believe my newfound miserliness and reignited avarice are not sinful at all, and they are on a par with how, for example, the mainline Protestant churches are treating the issue of homosexuality.  I don’t want to be told that my flaws are good, but rather to find exhortation and support in suppressing these passions,
good comparison.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #233 on: June 17, 2018, 04:55:39 PM »
Yeah, because thete are no gay women.

Also, never mind that lots of straight people do the same sex acts as gays. Let them get married anyway. Never call them to account.
Never mind that homosexuals cannot do the marital act.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #235 on: June 17, 2018, 05:23:19 PM »
There are churches I should add, those of the “prosperity gospel”, which would have me believe my newfound miserliness and reignited avarice are not sinful at all, and they are on a par with how, for example, the mainline Protestant churches are treating the issue of homosexuality.  I don’t want to be told that my flaws are good, but rather to find exhortation and support in suppressing these
+1
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #236 on: June 17, 2018, 05:37:54 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?
No matter how convoluted and clever the question, the answer is still NO.

What's convoluted about, "these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"
I've heard the same argument, more convincingly, from adulterers.

The answer is still NO.

By adulterers, do you mean people cheating on their spouses or unmarried people cohabiting? Either way, I'm not sure it has that much application to what I'm talking about.
The Church is.

btw, someone here we have a thread on this topic, with an article by the New York Times about redefining marriage beyond the requirement of opposite sexes-most same sex couples saying that fidelity was not part of the deal.
First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?
Somebody can't take a simple answer. Perhaps a cartoon will help.


Aren't you the guy who used to argue that anal sex is fine between married straight people?
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.

Ok, so anal sex is allowed but not oral? ??? Neither one is procreative, which I thought was the main traditional Orthodox objection.

Either way, you admit that the "wall socket" argument is a non-starter.
Not taking HV for authority, I "admit' nothing of the kind.

The main Orthodox objection is God "created them from the beginning male and female." Not unisex.

The plug does not have to be 24/7 in the socket. Just be able to go in and work when it does so. Even if it doesn't work, the plug works as a socket protector. Two sockets do nothing and two plugs are useless for anything.
And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.
and the dots we are talking about do not connect, no matter how much you try to force it.

I don't think you have any warrant for saying that other than blunt assertion. Whatever happened to God having actual reasons for what He commands?
He is His reason. Don't let Aquinas fool you.

There are no two Fathers in the Most Holy Trinity, any more than there are two Sons or two Spirits.
that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Not a presumption at all. A statement of absolute fact.

This week in SF I saw shops for women's shoes that had flood bait signs announcing with arrogance trying to pass itself off as pride that they also had men's sizes. Some should take the hint: if the shoe doesn't fit....

Much like the absolute fact that the Earth is flat (OT not NT, I know)?
Ptolemy's Geographia isn't in the OT nor the NT.

No, but the authors of the OT were men of their day who most likely accepted the common beliefs. Pythagoras, Eratosthenes, et al. only came on the scene as the OT was finishing up or already done.
"It is He Who sits above the circle of the earth"-Isaiah 40:22 8th century B.C.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 05:41:11 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #237 on: June 17, 2018, 06:21:39 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?
No matter how convoluted and clever the question, the answer is still NO.

What's convoluted about, "these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"
I've heard the same argument, more convincingly, from adulterers.

The answer is still NO.

By adulterers, do you mean people cheating on their spouses or unmarried people cohabiting? Either way, I'm not sure it has that much application to what I'm talking about.
The Church is.

Guess we're back to the same old thought-terminating-cliche appeal to "the Fathers" as though one's opinion of them is obviously the same thing as God's eternal truth...

btw, someone here we have a thread on this topic, with an article by the New York Times about redefining marriage beyond the requirement of opposite sexes-most same sex couples saying that fidelity was not part of the deal.

How many straight couples these days actually care about fidelity? And since when are we using opinion polls as indicative of anything useful?

First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?
Somebody can't take a simple answer. Perhaps a cartoon will help.


Aren't you the guy who used to argue that anal sex is fine between married straight people?
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.

Ok, so anal sex is allowed but not oral? ??? Neither one is procreative, which I thought was the main traditional Orthodox objection.

Either way, you admit that the "wall socket" argument is a non-starter.
Not taking HV for authority, I "admit' nothing of the kind.

The main Orthodox objection is God "created them from the beginning male and female." Not unisex.

The plug does not have to be 24/7 in the socket. Just be able to go in and work when it does so. Even if it doesn't work, the plug works as a socket protector. Two sockets do nothing and two plugs are useless for anything.

Then we're back the fact that sterile straight people are allowed to be married. Seems to me that if God allows them to become sterile in the first place (and yet still get married), then He might also allow sterile homosexual couples to marry as well.

And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.

And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.
and the dots we are talking about do not connect, no matter how much you try to force it.

I don't think you have any warrant for saying that other than blunt assertion. Whatever happened to God having actual reasons for what He commands?
He is His reason. Don't let Aquinas fool you.

Ok. But His commands should still evidence some of that reason.

There are no two Fathers in the Most Holy Trinity, any more than there are two Sons or two Spirits.

Yeah, and there's no Mother in the Trinity and the Son is Begotten without sex. What's your point?

that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Not a presumption at all. A statement of absolute fact.

This week in SF I saw shops for women's shoes that had flood bait signs announcing with arrogance trying to pass itself off as pride that they also had men's sizes. Some should take the hint: if the shoe doesn't fit....

Much like the absolute fact that the Earth is flat (OT not NT, I know)?
Ptolemy's Geographia isn't in the OT nor the NT.

No, but the authors of the OT were men of their day who most likely accepted the common beliefs. Pythagoras, Eratosthenes, et al. only came on the scene as the OT was finishing up or already done.
"It is He Who sits above the circle of the earth"-Isaiah 40:22 8th century B.C.

Circle, not sphere (yes, I know the Italian is "globo" but that seems to me more like a biased modern translation). It only proves that Isaiah did not believe in a square or rectangular Earth.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 06:24:51 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #238 on: June 17, 2018, 10:15:19 PM »
Guess we're back to the same old thought-terminating-cliche appeal to "the Fathers" as though one's opinion of them is obviously the same thing as God's eternal truth...
I never left the Fathers. That you were not with them explains your wandering around in circles. God's eternal truth does not come from you making it up.

How many straight couples these days actually care about fidelity?

They married one, officially 100%, as it is part of the deal.
And since when are we using opinion polls as indicative of anything useful?
You're the one confusing prevalent ignorance for common knowledge, not I. You place priority of such "couples" over the Fathers, not I. I just reported what they said.

Then we're back the fact that sterile straight people are allowed to be married.

I never left them. You're the one wandering around....
Seems to me that if God allows them to become sterile in the first place (and yet still get married), then He might also allow sterile homosexual couples to marry as well.
Doesn't seem that way to God, the Church or the Fathers. The redundancy of "sterile homosexual couple" qualifies as pleonism. God does not "allow them" to be sterile in the first place: they make themselves that way by denying basic biology.
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.


You bring up the idea of lesbians enjoying strap-ons makes my point.

Ok. But His commands should still evidence some of that reason.
To satisfy the curiosity of your feeble mind?

Yeah, and there's no Mother in the Trinity and the Son is Begotten without sex. What's your point?
God's: "He created them from the beginning male and female."

Circle, not sphere (yes, I know the Italian is "globo" but that seems to me more like a biased modern translation). It only proves that Isaiah did not believe in a square or rectangular Earth.
I don't know what Italian has to do with it.

And the evidence of Isaiah's belief in a flat earth-where is it?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #239 on: June 18, 2018, 12:21:06 AM »
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.

Which is why it can hardly be considered sex, since it's nothing but one using the other in a masturbatory act.

+1   And we all know how masturbators are driven from the Church and loathed by the people today, don't we?

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #240 on: June 18, 2018, 10:09:13 AM »
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.

Which is why it can hardly be considered sex, since it's nothing but one using the other in a masturbatory act.

+1   And we all know how masturbators are driven from the Church and loathed by the people today, don't we?

No, but they are still called to confession and repentance.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #241 on: June 18, 2018, 10:10:14 AM »
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.

ROFL, This is normal to you? This is what the church should accept as "normal"? What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies? That'll be a sight to see at the liturgy, but it'll be normal...rofl

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #242 on: June 18, 2018, 11:52:28 AM »
Yeah, because thete are no gay women.

Also, never mind that lots of straight people do the same sex acts as gays. Let them get married anyway. Never call them to account.

On this point, the ancient canons apply precisely the same canonical penalties to married couples that engage in sodomy, as persons of the same sex.  Sodomy is prohibited in both cases and treated as one sin by St. John the Faster, who does not differentiate between married couples or homosexuals with regards to the offense, but rather in both cases imposes excommunication that is roughly twice as long as excommunication for adultery; it works out to be something more than 15 years.  I don’t believe the severe penances suggested by St. John the Faster should be routinely, if ever, employed by the Church, except perhaps in the most extreme cases where there might be some aggravating element (since his canon does not, for example, differentiate between pederasty and homosexuality between consenting adults), but they do provide an invaluable insight into how the Fathers viewed these sins.

Again, we never exercise these penalties today. Never even ask. So, your argument is invalid.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #243 on: June 18, 2018, 11:56:16 AM »
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.

Which is why it can hardly be considered sex, since it's nothing but one using the other in a masturbatory act.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #244 on: June 18, 2018, 11:58:10 AM »
And we all know how masturbators are driven from the Church and loathed by the people today, don't we?
If they claim their unrepentant relationship with themselves to be tolerated, in spite of the Holy Scriptures, accepted, in spite of Holy Tradition, celebrated, in spite of Church canons, expect them to be run from the Church in a heart beat.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #245 on: June 18, 2018, 11:58:22 AM »
Yeah, because thete are no gay women.

Also, never mind that lots of straight people do the same sex acts as gays. Let them get married anyway. Never call them to account.

On this point, the ancient canons apply precisely the same canonical penalties to married couples that engage in sodomy, as persons of the same sex.  Sodomy is prohibited in both cases and treated as one sin by St. John the Faster, who does not differentiate between married couples or homosexuals with regards to the offense, but rather in both cases imposes excommunication that is roughly twice as long as excommunication for adultery; it works out to be something more than 15 years.  I don’t believe the severe penances suggested by St. John the Faster should be routinely, if ever, employed by the Church, except perhaps in the most extreme cases where there might be some aggravating element (since his canon does not, for example, differentiate between pederasty and homosexuality between consenting adults), but they do provide an invaluable insight into how the Fathers viewed these sins.

Again, we never exercise these penalties today. Never even ask. So, your argument is invalid.

tu quoque does not refute the point, btw.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #246 on: June 18, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
Guess we're back to the same old thought-terminating-cliche appeal to "the Fathers" as though one's opinion of them is obviously the same thing as God's eternal truth...
I never left the Fathers. That you were not with them explains your wandering around in circles. God's eternal truth does not come from you making it up.

Apparently I'm now the only pro-gay Christian who ever lived?

How many straight couples these days actually care about fidelity?

They married one, officially 100%, as it is part of the deal.
And since when are we using opinion polls as indicative of anything useful?
You're the one confusing prevalent ignorance for common knowledge, not I. You place priority of such "couples" over the Fathers, not I. I just reported what they said.

Straight married couples cheat on each other all the time. Their being married doesn't automatically guarantee they won't cheat on each other. If most of the gay couples out of whatever sample size the Times asked don't care about faithfulness, it has no baring on whatever other gay couples there are out there who do. So, I don't know why you're even bringing it up.

Then we're back the fact that sterile straight people are allowed to be married.

I never left them. You're the one wandering around....
Seems to me that if God allows them to become sterile in the first place (and yet still get married), then He might also allow sterile homosexual couples to marry as well.
Doesn't seem that way to God, the Church or the Fathers. The redundancy of "sterile homosexual couple" qualifies as pleonism. God does not "allow them" to be sterile in the first place: they make themselves that way by denying basic biology.

He allows whatever medical condition or accident or whatever led to the sterility in the straight couple. He also allows (or forces, depending on how one looks at it) homosexuals to be irrevocably attracted to the same sex and then (according to you) tell them to bare a cross of celibacy that may or may not even be within their ability to stand (can you guarantee that every homosexual is one to whom celibacy has been given? If not, you just might be denying 1 Corinthians 10:13).

I'm at least trying to find an upshot in this possibly monstrous (ironic, given your screenshot) state of affairs.

And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.


You bring up the idea of lesbians enjoying strap-ons makes my point.

Not just enjoying, maybe someday using to procreate. Cloning technology, genetic engineering, there's a lot of possibilities. I'm not saying anything for certain, but I don't know that I can rule it out either.

Ok. But His commands should still evidence some of that reason.
To satisfy the curiosity of your feeble mind?

Anybody's, really. I find the anti-gay philosophizing kind of incomplete and I doubt I'm the only one.

Yeah, and there's no Mother in the Trinity and the Son is Begotten without sex. What's your point?
God's: "He created them from the beginning male and female."

Which has nothing to do with the Trinity and was spoken in a context that only obliquely relates to modern gay marriage.

Circle, not sphere (yes, I know the Italian is "globo" but that seems to me more like a biased modern translation). It only proves that Isaiah did not believe in a square or rectangular Earth.
I don't know what Italian has to do with it.

Just thought I'd mention it since I've seen it used to claim Isaiah didn't believe in a flat earth.

And the evidence of Isaiah's belief in a flat earth-where is it?

Well, I guess it's possible that there was a round earth tradition among 8th Century BC Hebrews. But without any evidence, why should I assume that there was just because it says "circle?" Every other Middle Eastern nation seems to have been flat earthers at the time.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #247 on: June 18, 2018, 02:39:57 PM »
Guess we're back to the same old thought-terminating-cliche appeal to "the Fathers" as though one's opinion of them is obviously the same thing as God's eternal truth...
I never left the Fathers. That you were not with them explains your wandering around in circles. God's eternal truth does not come from you making it up.

Apparently I'm now the only pro-gay Christian who ever lived?
Don't know how you define "pro-gay" or even "Christian" but no matter, as many who can claim (at least in name) push the flood bait agenda.
How many straight couples these days actually care about fidelity?

They married one, officially 100%, as it is part of the deal.
And since when are we using opinion polls as indicative of anything useful?
You're the one confusing prevalent ignorance for common knowledge, not I. You place priority of such "couples" over the Fathers, not I. I just reported what they said.

Straight married couples cheat on each other all the time. Their being married doesn't automatically guarantee they won't cheat on each other. If most of the gay couples out of whatever sample size the Times asked don't care about faithfulness, it has no baring on whatever other gay couples there are out there who do. So, I don't know why you're even bringing it up.

Statistically, no where near the rate of homosexual "couples." No one made the claim that the marriage vows/prayers work like a spell, but they don't drop the "forsaking all others."

You brought up your spokesmen, not I.
Then we're back the fact that sterile straight people are allowed to be married.

I never left them. You're the one wandering around....
Seems to me that if God allows them to become sterile in the first place (and yet still get married), then He might also allow sterile homosexual couples to marry as well.
Doesn't seem that way to God, the Church or the Fathers. The redundancy of "sterile homosexual couple" qualifies as pleonism. God does not "allow them" to be sterile in the first place: they make themselves that way by denying basic biology.

He allows whatever medical condition or accident or whatever led to the sterility in the straight couple. He also allows (or forces, depending on how one looks at it) homosexuals to be irrevocably attracted to the same sex and then (according to you) tell them to bare a cross of celibacy that may or may not even be within their ability to stand (can you guarantee that every homosexual is one to whom celibacy has been given? If not, you just might be denying 1 Corinthians 10:13).
I never said they had the gift of celibacy, any more than failure to find a spouse makes one automatically a good candidate for monasticism. What I did say, always, that their condition (homosexuals and non-married heterosexuals) does not give the license to define down deviancy to accept the abnormal as normal and redefine how things are and should be.

btw, you get an F in Christian theodicy.
I'm at least trying to find an upshot in this possibly monstrous (ironic, given your screenshot) state of affairs.
No, you are trying to drag us down into the pit where monsters start (no irony at all).
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.


You bring up the idea of lesbians enjoying strap-ons makes my point.

Not just enjoying, maybe someday using to procreate. Cloning technology, genetic engineering, there's a lot of possibilities. I'm not saying anything for certain, but I don't know that I can rule it out either.
The Church does.
It fact, just enjoying with no reference to procreation underlines my point (and the Church's).
Ok. But His commands should still evidence some of that reason.
To satisfy the curiosity of your feeble mind?

Anybody's, really. I find the anti-gay philosophizing kind of incomplete and I doubt I'm the only one.
A shared neurosis is still insanity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria
Yeah, and there's no Mother in the Trinity and the Son is Begotten without sex. What's your point?
God's: "He created them from the beginning male and female."

Which has nothing to do with the Trinity and was spoken in a context that only obliquely relates to modern gay marriage.
which has no reference to the Most Holy Trinity, which MARRIAGE has in abundance.
Circle, not sphere (yes, I know the Italian is "globo" but that seems to me more like a biased modern translation). It only proves that Isaiah did not believe in a square or rectangular Earth.
I don't know what Italian has to do with it.

Just thought I'd mention it since I've seen it used to claim Isaiah didn't believe in a flat earth.
No, you did assUme it and tried to discredit the wisdom of the Church on that basis.
And the evidence of Isaiah's belief in a flat earth-where is it?

Well, I guess it's possible that there was a round earth tradition among 8th Century BC Hebrews. But without any evidence, why should I assume that there was just because it says "circle?" Every other Middle Eastern nation seems to have been flat earthers at the time.
You should not assUme anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 02:44:41 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #248 on: June 18, 2018, 03:35:53 PM »
Guess we're back to the same old thought-terminating-cliche appeal to "the Fathers" as though one's opinion of them is obviously the same thing as God's eternal truth...
I never left the Fathers. That you were not with them explains your wandering around in circles. God's eternal truth does not come from you making it up.

Apparently I'm now the only pro-gay Christian who ever lived?
Don't know how you define "pro-gay" or even "Christian" but no matter, as many who can claim (at least in name) push the flood bait agenda.

Well then I'm not the one "making it up," now am I?

How many straight couples these days actually care about fidelity?

They married one, officially 100%, as it is part of the deal.
And since when are we using opinion polls as indicative of anything useful?
You're the one confusing prevalent ignorance for common knowledge, not I. You place priority of such "couples" over the Fathers, not I. I just reported what they said.

Straight married couples cheat on each other all the time. Their being married doesn't automatically guarantee they won't cheat on each other. If most of the gay couples out of whatever sample size the Times asked don't care about faithfulness, it has no baring on whatever other gay couples there are out there who do. So, I don't know why you're even bringing it up.

Statistically, no where near the rate of homosexual "couples." No one made the claim that the marriage vows/prayers work like a spell, but they don't drop the "forsaking all others."

You brought up your spokesmen, not I.

And just who are my "spokesmen," according you?

At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of homosexual couples do cheat on each other, though I wonder how it stacks up to the number of heterosexual cheaters by religion. When a religion and the culture based on it demonizes you, it's hard to keep up all of their values.

Then we're back the fact that sterile straight people are allowed to be married.

I never left them. You're the one wandering around....
Seems to me that if God allows them to become sterile in the first place (and yet still get married), then He might also allow sterile homosexual couples to marry as well.
Doesn't seem that way to God, the Church or the Fathers. The redundancy of "sterile homosexual couple" qualifies as pleonism. God does not "allow them" to be sterile in the first place: they make themselves that way by denying basic biology.

He allows whatever medical condition or accident or whatever led to the sterility in the straight couple. He also allows (or forces, depending on how one looks at it) homosexuals to be irrevocably attracted to the same sex and then (according to you) tell them to bare a cross of celibacy that may or may not even be within their ability to stand (can you guarantee that every homosexual is one to whom celibacy has been given? If not, you just might be denying 1 Corinthians 10:13).
I never said they had the gift of celibacy, any more than failure to find a spouse makes one automatically a good candidate for monasticism. What I did say, always, that their condition (homosexuals and non-married heterosexuals) does not give the license to define down deviancy to accept the abnormal as normal and redefine how things are and should be.

If they can't be celibate and they can't be gay, then what are they supposed to do? Get hypnosis? Shock treatment? Just kill themselves?

btw, you get an F in Christian theodicy.

A lot of Christian theodicy gets an F in coherence and moral sanity. Nobody asked to be born gay (or made such by natal and environmental factors, or whatever).

I'm at least trying to find an upshot in this possibly monstrous (ironic, given your screenshot) state of affairs.
No, you are trying to drag us down into the pit where monsters start (no irony at all).
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.


You bring up the idea of lesbians enjoying strap-ons makes my point.

Not just enjoying, maybe someday using to procreate. Cloning technology, genetic engineering, there's a lot of possibilities. I'm not saying anything for certain, but I don't know that I can rule it out either.
The Church does.
It fact, just enjoying with no reference to procreation underlines my point (and the Church's).

Then sterile straight people aren't allowed to get married and Bill Clinton was right about "oral sex" being an oxymoron.

Yeah, and there's no Mother in the Trinity and the Son is Begotten without sex. What's your point?
God's: "He created them from the beginning male and female."

Which has nothing to do with the Trinity and was spoken in a context that only obliquely relates to modern gay marriage.
which has no reference to the Most Holy Trinity, which MARRIAGE has in abundance.

It easily could. It just needs a service written for it.

Circle, not sphere (yes, I know the Italian is "globo" but that seems to me more like a biased modern translation). It only proves that Isaiah did not believe in a square or rectangular Earth.
I don't know what Italian has to do with it.

Just thought I'd mention it since I've seen it used to claim Isaiah didn't believe in a flat earth.
No, you did assUme it and tried to discredit the wisdom of the Church on that basis.

Assumed what? That that's an argument that exists? I didn't have to assume it. https://www.google.com/search?ei=6QUoW_rOFsPe0wLTlZygDg&q=khug+isaiah+globo&oq=khug+isaiah+globo&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1l2.4624.6039.0.6509.6.6.0.0.0.0.212.1084.0j5j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.921....0.KsrVE2pINS0

I'm not trying to undermine anything, just trying to show that the blameless, but limited, reasoning of a time period sometimes winds up incorporated into the culture of the Church Militant (or in this case, the OT equivalent). There's no fault in admitting that and adjusting for it.

And the evidence of Isaiah's belief in a flat earth-where is it?

Well, I guess it's possible that there was a round earth tradition among 8th Century BC Hebrews. But without any evidence, why should I assume that there was just because it says "circle?" Every other Middle Eastern nation seems to have been flat earthers at the time.
You should not assUme anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

That article is all about the Christian period. I'm well aware that the Apostles and Church Fathers (unless you consider Lactantius a Father, anyway. Isidore of Seville seems borderline on the shape the Earth) believed in a round earth. I'm talking about Isaiah's day.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 03:39:10 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #249 on: June 18, 2018, 04:44:11 PM »
Isa, sorry there's too many quote boxes to follow in this thread, but I still find your arguing inconsistent. You reject "natural law" (and I'm with you on that) and yet you still appeal to biology to buttress your argument against homosexuality. You can't have your cake and eat it. If man is created in God's image and likeness, then that means humans are "unnatural" in the biological sense. So you can't argue that homosexuality is unnatural when humans are essentially unnatural.

The other thing is, the validity of marriage in the Church does not require consummation, so why the fixation of homosexual sex?
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #250 on: June 18, 2018, 05:01:23 PM »
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.

ROFL, This is normal to you? This is what the church should accept as "normal"? What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies? That'll be a sight to see at the liturgy, but it'll be normal...rofl

I thought you said that you were done talking to me.

Anyway, do you consider this normal?

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #251 on: June 18, 2018, 05:07:01 PM »
Quote from: Rubricnigel
What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies?

Wow, you're disgusting. Figures, from a conspiracy site buff.

As we've already gone over, homosexuality is not unnatural. It occurs in nature.

Quentin Crisp was right about guys like you. You really just can't stop thinking about what gay men do with each other.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #252 on: June 18, 2018, 05:19:41 PM »
Guess we're back to the same old thought-terminating-cliche appeal to "the Fathers" as though one's opinion of them is obviously the same thing as God's eternal truth...
I never left the Fathers. That you were not with them explains your wandering around in circles. God's eternal truth does not come from you making it up.

Apparently I'm now the only pro-gay Christian who ever lived?
Don't know how you define "pro-gay" or even "Christian" but no matter, as many who can claim (at least in name) push the flood bait agenda.

Well then I'm not the one "making it up," now am I?
Yes, individually and collectively you are. Such is the way of heresy.
How many straight couples these days actually care about fidelity?

They married one, officially 100%, as it is part of the deal.
And since when are we using opinion polls as indicative of anything useful?
You're the one confusing prevalent ignorance for common knowledge, not I. You place priority of such "couples" over the Fathers, not I. I just reported what they said.

Straight married couples cheat on each other all the time. Their being married doesn't automatically guarantee they won't cheat on each other. If most of the gay couples out of whatever sample size the Times asked don't care about faithfulness, it has no baring on whatever other gay couples there are out there who do. So, I don't know why you're even bringing it up.

Statistically, no where near the rate of homosexual "couples." No one made the claim that the marriage vows/prayers work like a spell, but they don't drop the "forsaking all others."

You brought up your spokesmen, not I.

And just who are my "spokesmen," according you?
How about according to you?
"these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"
The quotation marks are yours, not mine. To whom do you attribute what is in between?
At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of homosexual couples do cheat on each other, though I wonder how it stacks up to the number of heterosexual cheaters by religion. When a religion and the culture based on it demonizes you, it's hard to keep up all of their values.
non-acceptance of behavior="demonization" of persons happens only in the fevered brains of those consumed with tearing down all values to validate their lust.

"I'll show those homophobic breeders...I'm going to cheat on my gay sexual partner..."

Then we're back the fact that sterile straight people are allowed to be married.

I never left them. You're the one wandering around....
Seems to me that if God allows them to become sterile in the first place (and yet still get married), then He might also allow sterile homosexual couples to marry as well.
Doesn't seem that way to God, the Church or the Fathers. The redundancy of "sterile homosexual couple" qualifies as pleonism. God does not "allow them" to be sterile in the first place: they make themselves that way by denying basic biology.

He allows whatever medical condition or accident or whatever led to the sterility in the straight couple. He also allows (or forces, depending on how one looks at it) homosexuals to be irrevocably attracted to the same sex and then (according to you) tell them to bare a cross of celibacy that may or may not even be within their ability to stand (can you guarantee that every homosexual is one to whom celibacy has been given? If not, you just might be denying 1 Corinthians 10:13).
I never said they had the gift of celibacy, any more than failure to find a spouse makes one automatically a good candidate for monasticism. What I did say, always, that their condition (homosexuals and non-married heterosexuals) does not give the license to define down deviancy to accept the abnormal as normal and redefine how things are and should be.

If they can't be celibate and they can't be gay, then what are they supposed to do? Get hypnosis? Shock treatment? Just kill themselves?
What do single heterosexuals do?
btw, you get an F in Christian theodicy.

A lot of Christian theodicy gets an F in coherence and moral sanity.

fortunately, you are in no position of authority to give grades on it.

Nobody asked to be born gay (or made such by natal and environmental factors, or whatever).
Nobody asked to be born blind, deaf or lame, and none of them celebrate it as a good thing.

I'm at least trying to find an upshot in this possibly monstrous (ironic, given your screenshot) state of affairs.
No, you are trying to drag us down into the pit where monsters start (no irony at all).
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.


You bring up the idea of lesbians enjoying strap-ons makes my point.

Not just enjoying, maybe someday using to procreate. Cloning technology, genetic engineering, there's a lot of possibilities. I'm not saying anything for certain, but I don't know that I can rule it out either.
The Church does.
It fact, just enjoying with no reference to procreation underlines my point (and the Church's).

Then sterile straight people aren't allowed to get married and Bill Clinton was right about "oral sex" being an oxymoron.
only in your convoluted illogic.

Why would lesbians enjoy strap-ons if they do not enjoy men, if, like Bill Clinton, they are only in it for pleasure and pairing sex organs is only a trifling matter?
Yeah, and there's no Mother in the Trinity and the Son is Begotten without sex. What's your point?
God's: "He created them from the beginning male and female."

Which has nothing to do with the Trinity and was spoken in a context that only obliquely relates to modern gay marriage.
which has no reference to the Most Holy Trinity, which MARRIAGE has in abundance.

It easily could. It just needs a service written for it.
They already have, all full of heresy. The Orthodox service wouldn't serve their purpose, which of course makes the point.
Circle, not sphere (yes, I know the Italian is "globo" but that seems to me more like a biased modern translation). It only proves that Isaiah did not believe in a square or rectangular Earth.
I don't know what Italian has to do with it.

Just thought I'd mention it since I've seen it used to claim Isaiah didn't believe in a flat earth.
No, you did assUme it and tried to discredit the wisdom of the Church on that basis.

Assumed what? That that's an argument that exists? I didn't have to assume it. https://www.google.com/search?ei=6QUoW_rOFsPe0wLTlZygDg&q=khug+isaiah+globo&oq=khug+isaiah+globo&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1l2.4624.6039.0.6509.6.6.0.0.0.0.212.1084.0j5j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.921....0.KsrVE2pINS0
what you did assUme was that Isaiah (and the rest of the Bible, the Church, the Fathers etc.) believed in a flat earth, in a futile effort to get the camel's nose into the tent.
I'm not trying to undermine anything

disclaimer: legaleze for denying that you are saying what you are saying while you are saying it.
just trying to show that the blameless, but limited, reasoning of a time period sometimes winds up incorporated into the culture of the Church Militant (or in this case, the OT equivalent). There's no fault in admitting that and adjusting for it.
The Church isn't interested, nor dogmatizes on, the shape of the earth. The morality of human sex is a different matter, the former being perhaps beyond the scientific knowledge of the day, but the latter definitely grasped by the ethics of the day and today.
And the evidence of Isaiah's belief in a flat earth-where is it?

Well, I guess it's possible that there was a round earth tradition among 8th Century BC Hebrews. But without any evidence, why should I assume that there was just because it says "circle?" Every other Middle Eastern nation seems to have been flat earthers at the time.
You should not assUme anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

That article is all about the Christian period. I'm well aware that the Apostles and Church Fathers (unless you consider Lactantius a Father, anyway. Isidore of Seville seems borderline on the shape the Earth) believed in a round earth. I'm talking about Isaiah's day.
Lactantius, Isidore and Isaiah do not differ on the need of opposite sex partners for a marriage.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 05:21:22 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #253 on: June 18, 2018, 05:35:21 PM »
Quote from: Rubricnigel
What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies?

Wow, you're disgusting. Figures, from a conspiracy site buff.

As we've already gone over, homosexuality is not unnatural. It occurs in nature.
Do strap-ons?
Quentin Crisp was right about guys like you. You really just can't stop thinking about what gay men do with each other.
only when the gays and their enablers keep yelling what they do with each other, over and over and over.

Quote
For LGBTQ youth to experience comparable health benefits to their non-LGBTQ peers, sex education programs must be LGBTQ-inclusive. Inclusive programs are those that help youth understand gender identity and sexual orientation with age-appropriate and medically accurate information; incorporate positive examples of LGBTQ individuals, romantic relationships and families; emphasize the need for protection during sex for people of all identities; and dispel common myths and stereotypes about behavior and identity.
https://www.hrc.org/resources/a-call-to-action-lgbtq-youth-need-inclusive-sex-education

« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 05:36:16 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #254 on: June 18, 2018, 05:41:54 PM »
So do heterosexual parades.

Again, you can't stop thinking about what gay men do with one another.

By the way, nobody in the photo you  posted is actually nude. They're all wearing shorts.

My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #255 on: June 18, 2018, 05:49:09 PM »
Isa, sorry there's too many quote boxes to follow in this thread, but I still find your arguing inconsistent. You reject "natural law" (and I'm with you on that) and yet you still appeal to biology to buttress your argument against homosexuality. You can't have your cake and eat it. If man is created in God's image and likeness, then that means humans are "unnatural" in the biological sense. So you can't argue that homosexuality is unnatural when humans are essentially unnatural.
How do you get being created in the Image and Likeness of God as being "unnatural"? In fact, human nature consists of man becoming more human, he becomes more divine.
The other thing is, the validity of marriage in the Church does not require consummation, so why the fixation of homosexual sex?
what can you consummate when there is no marriage (that goes for marriage of adulterers and bigamists, btw). The rite of marriage presupposes consummation (partly what renders it useless for "SSM").
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #256 on: June 18, 2018, 06:00:23 PM »
So do heterosexual parades.
can you give me the place and time of a "heterosexual parade" as I have neither heard of nor seen one.
Again, you can't stop thinking about what gay men do with one another.
Again, we think about it only when you bring it up. What lesbians do too, btw, although there may some dispute on that:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x55brnr
By the way, nobody in the photo you  posted is actually nude. They're all wearing shorts.
I do believe posting nudity here is forbidden, no?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #257 on: June 18, 2018, 06:17:16 PM »
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.

ROFL, This is normal to you? This is what the church should accept as "normal"? What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies? That'll be a sight to see at the liturgy, but it'll be normal...rofl

I thought you said that you were done talking to me.

Anyway, do you consider this normal?



What does that picture prove? You said women are using sex toys to impregnate themselves. I'm sorry but people being kept alive, vs moral degeneracy has no correlation. Its not normal, but you seem to think it is. I was laughing because its insane what people do, and how far society has come for people to utter those words without laughing or disgust.

Quote from: Rubricnigel
What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies?

Wow, you're disgusting. Figures, from a conspiracy site buff.

As we've already gone over, homosexuality is not unnatural. It occurs in nature.

Quentin Crisp was right about guys like you. You really just can't stop thinking about what gay men do with each other.

So animals stop procreating and settle down to live gay lives? Wouldnt that stop the "gay gene" from being passed down to the next generatiom?

You say "Conspiracy buff". Oh no, i dont buy the narrative that gays using sex toys to impregnate themselves, or lilttle kids being paraded around in DRAG is NORMAL. it says alot when you buy all that doesnt it?

I dont want to think what gay men do, but they parade around showing us and yelling it for all to hear. Kinda weird how they say, "you dont need to know what i do in my bedroom", then they walk around naked/ half naked eith dildos and sex contraptions screaming in the middle of the road. Kinda hard to miss that huh?


Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #258 on: June 18, 2018, 06:21:50 PM »


What does that picture prove? You said women are using sex toys to impregnate themselves. I'm sorry but people being kept alive, vs moral degeneracy has no correlation. Its not normal, but you seem to think it is. I was laughing because its insane what people do, and how far society has come for people to utter those words without laughing or disgust

No, I'm saying I don't trust you to delineate for me what normal is when your antivax nonsense would seem to mean more kids get crippling illnesses like polio.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 06:22:18 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #259 on: June 18, 2018, 06:34:37 PM »
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.

ROFL, This is normal to you? This is what the church should accept as "normal"? What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies? That'll be a sight to see at the liturgy, but it'll be normal...rofl

I thought you said that you were done talking to me.

Anyway, do you consider this normal?



What does that picture prove? You said women are using sex toys to impregnate themselves. I'm sorry but people being kept alive, vs moral degeneracy has no correlation. Its not normal, but you seem to think it is. I was laughing because its insane what people do, and how far society has come for people to utter those words without laughing or disgust.

Quote from: Rubricnigel
What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies?

Wow, you're disgusting. Figures, from a conspiracy site buff.

As we've already gone over, homosexuality is not unnatural. It occurs in nature.

Quentin Crisp was right about guys like you. You really just can't stop thinking about what gay men do with each other.

So animals stop procreating and settle down to live gay lives? Wouldnt that stop the "gay gene" from being passed down to the next generatiom?

You say "Conspiracy buff". Oh no, i dont buy the narrative that gays using sex toys to impregnate themselves, or lilttle kids being paraded around in DRAG is NORMAL. it says alot when you buy all that doesnt it?

I dont want to think what gay men do, but they parade around showing us and yelling it for all to hear. Kinda weird how they say, "you dont need to know what i do in my bedroom", then they walk around naked/ half naked eith dildos and sex contraptions screaming in the middle of the road. Kinda hard to miss that huh?
Where again are all these gay men taunting you so mercilessly ? On Grindr?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 06:37:05 PM by augustin717 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #260 on: June 18, 2018, 07:18:08 PM »
Guess we're back to the same old thought-terminating-cliche appeal to "the Fathers" as though one's opinion of them is obviously the same thing as God's eternal truth...
I never left the Fathers. That you were not with them explains your wandering around in circles. God's eternal truth does not come from you making it up.

Apparently I'm now the only pro-gay Christian who ever lived?
Don't know how you define "pro-gay" or even "Christian" but no matter, as many who can claim (at least in name) push the flood bait agenda.

Well then I'm not the one "making it up," now am I?
Yes, individually and collectively you are. Such is the way of heresy.

How can it be heresy if it's never been defined as such by a council?

How many straight couples these days actually care about fidelity?

They married one, officially 100%, as it is part of the deal.
And since when are we using opinion polls as indicative of anything useful?
You're the one confusing prevalent ignorance for common knowledge, not I. You place priority of such "couples" over the Fathers, not I. I just reported what they said.

Straight married couples cheat on each other all the time. Their being married doesn't automatically guarantee they won't cheat on each other. If most of the gay couples out of whatever sample size the Times asked don't care about faithfulness, it has no baring on whatever other gay couples there are out there who do. So, I don't know why you're even bringing it up.

Statistically, no where near the rate of homosexual "couples." No one made the claim that the marriage vows/prayers work like a spell, but they don't drop the "forsaking all others."

You brought up your spokesmen, not I.

And just who are my "spokesmen," according you?
How about according to you?
"these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"
The quotation marks are yours, not mine. To whom do you attribute what is in between?

It wasn't a quote from anybody, it was a rhetorical device. I was summing up my own position.

At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of homosexual couples do cheat on each other, though I wonder how it stacks up to the number of heterosexual cheaters by religion. When a religion and the culture based on it demonizes you, it's hard to keep up all of their values.
non-acceptance of behavior="demonization" of persons happens only in the fevered brains of those consumed with tearing down all values to validate their lust.

When you call them sodomites, dissolute, flood-baiters, etc. I think it's a bit farther than just "non-acceptance." If you think they should be demonized, own up to it, be proud of your views, don't try to pussy foot around.

"I'll show those homophobic breeders...I'm going to cheat on my gay sexual partner..."

You miss my point. Not as many homosexuals are religious since religions don't tend to like them. It's understandable to an extent that they would be less likely to cheat on their spouse if they were.

Also, why do you call it cheating if you won't call what they have a real relationship?

Then we're back the fact that sterile straight people are allowed to be married.

I never left them. You're the one wandering around....
Seems to me that if God allows them to become sterile in the first place (and yet still get married), then He might also allow sterile homosexual couples to marry as well.
Doesn't seem that way to God, the Church or the Fathers. The redundancy of "sterile homosexual couple" qualifies as pleonism. God does not "allow them" to be sterile in the first place: they make themselves that way by denying basic biology.

He allows whatever medical condition or accident or whatever led to the sterility in the straight couple. He also allows (or forces, depending on how one looks at it) homosexuals to be irrevocably attracted to the same sex and then (according to you) tell them to bare a cross of celibacy that may or may not even be within their ability to stand (can you guarantee that every homosexual is one to whom celibacy has been given? If not, you just might be denying 1 Corinthians 10:13).
I never said they had the gift of celibacy, any more than failure to find a spouse makes one automatically a good candidate for monasticism. What I did say, always, that their condition (homosexuals and non-married heterosexuals) does not give the license to define down deviancy to accept the abnormal as normal and redefine how things are and should be.

If they can't be celibate and they can't be gay, then what are they supposed to do? Get hypnosis? Shock treatment? Just kill themselves?
What do single heterosexuals do?

Either get married or be celibate (depending on whether they can handle it).

btw, you get an F in Christian theodicy.

A lot of Christian theodicy gets an F in coherence and moral sanity.

fortunately, you are in no position of authority to give grades on it.

Are you?


Nobody asked to be born gay (or made such by natal and environmental factors, or whatever).
Nobody asked to be born blind, deaf or lame, and none of them celebrate it as a good thing.

Actually...

And at least you aren't telling lame people they're going to Hell for using a wheel chair.

I'm at least trying to find an upshot in this possibly monstrous (ironic, given your screenshot) state of affairs.
No, you are trying to drag us down into the pit where monsters start (no irony at all).
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.


You bring up the idea of lesbians enjoying strap-ons makes my point.

Not just enjoying, maybe someday using to procreate. Cloning technology, genetic engineering, there's a lot of possibilities. I'm not saying anything for certain, but I don't know that I can rule it out either.
The Church does.
It fact, just enjoying with no reference to procreation underlines my point (and the Church's).

Then sterile straight people aren't allowed to get married and Bill Clinton was right about "oral sex" being an oxymoron.
only in your convoluted illogic.

Seems like the end point to your making procreative sex the be all and end all.

Why would lesbians enjoy strap-ons if they do not enjoy men, if, like Bill Clinton, they are only in it for pleasure and pairing sex organs is only a trifling matter?

Who says they're only in it for pleasure? Plenty of them adopt or use sperm banks, for instance, which indicates they don't JUST want pleasure. It's not incongruous to enjoy a certain sensation but not the gender that comes with it.

Yeah, and there's no Mother in the Trinity and the Son is Begotten without sex. What's your point?
God's: "He created them from the beginning male and female."

Which has nothing to do with the Trinity and was spoken in a context that only obliquely relates to modern gay marriage.
which has no reference to the Most Holy Trinity, which MARRIAGE has in abundance.

It easily could. It just needs a service written for it.
They already have, all full of heresy. The Orthodox service wouldn't serve their purpose, which of course makes the point.

In what ways wouldn't it?

And even in the Orthodox Church, new services get written from time to time.

Circle, not sphere (yes, I know the Italian is "globo" but that seems to me more like a biased modern translation). It only proves that Isaiah did not believe in a square or rectangular Earth.
I don't know what Italian has to do with it.

Just thought I'd mention it since I've seen it used to claim Isaiah didn't believe in a flat earth.
No, you did assUme it and tried to discredit the wisdom of the Church on that basis.

Assumed what? That that's an argument that exists? I didn't have to assume it. https://www.google.com/search?ei=6QUoW_rOFsPe0wLTlZygDg&q=khug+isaiah+globo&oq=khug+isaiah+globo&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1l2.4624.6039.0.6509.6.6.0.0.0.0.212.1084.0j5j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.921....0.KsrVE2pINS0
what you did assUme was that Isaiah (and the rest of the Bible, the Church, the Fathers etc.) believed in a flat earth, in a futile effort to get the camel's nose into the tent.

If I implied that about THE CHURCH, it was unintentional. In the OT they believed in a flat earth; the Fathers were all round Earth Geocentrists as far as I can tell (even though Heliocentrism existed in that day, it was minority view).

I'm not trying to undermine anything

disclaimer: legaleze for denying that you are saying what you are saying while you are saying it.

Clarifying a definition based on new information is not undermining.

just trying to show that the blameless, but limited, reasoning of a time period sometimes winds up incorporated into the culture of the Church Militant (or in this case, the OT equivalent). There's no fault in admitting that and adjusting for it.
The Church isn't interested, nor dogmatizes on, the shape of the earth. The morality of human sex is a different matter, the former being perhaps beyond the scientific knowledge of the day, but the latter definitely grasped by the ethics of the day and today.

It's based around the assumptions about human psychology/behavior of that day. Those assumptions have since been well challenged.

And the evidence of Isaiah's belief in a flat earth-where is it?

Well, I guess it's possible that there was a round earth tradition among 8th Century BC Hebrews. But without any evidence, why should I assume that there was just because it says "circle?" Every other Middle Eastern nation seems to have been flat earthers at the time.
You should not assUme anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

That article is all about the Christian period. I'm well aware that the Apostles and Church Fathers (unless you consider Lactantius a Father, anyway. Isidore of Seville seems borderline on the shape the Earth) believed in a round earth. I'm talking about Isaiah's day.
Lactantius, Isidore and Isaiah do not differ on the need of opposite sex partners for a marriage.

Because they lived before people had much of a concept that two people of the same sex could actually have a loving, mutual relationship. Their concept of homosexuality was pretty much just temple prostitution and the rape of slave boys.

Just like the Church has accepted that the Saints (Old and New Testament) of the past could be wrong about the shape of the Earth or the makeup of the solar system (or any number of other things), so it should be able to accept that they were wrong about homosexuality. It's not a fault to just be wrong about something because of the time you live in.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #261 on: June 18, 2018, 07:23:14 PM »
Quentin Crisp was right about guys like you. You really just can't stop thinking about what gay men do with each other.
only when the gays and their enablers keep yelling what they do with each other, over and over and over.


Something tells me that that's been blown out of proportion in the reporting. But even so, transgressive behavior has its uses to challenge injustice (see, Isaiah walking around naked, Ezekiel eating bread cooked using dung fires, etc.)

And even if some paraders got a little overexuberant, it's not like celebrations even by Christians don't ever spiral out of control (I'm sure Augustin's got some stories from Romania).
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 07:23:47 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #262 on: June 18, 2018, 08:15:15 PM »
Quentin Crisp was right about guys like you. You really just can't stop thinking about what gay men do with each other.
only when the gays and their enablers keep yelling what they do with each other, over and over and over.


Something tells me that that's been blown out of proportion in the reporting. But even so, transgressive behavior has its uses to challenge injustice (see, Isaiah walking around naked, Ezekiel eating bread cooked using dung fires, etc.)

And even if some paraders got a little overexuberant, it's not like celebrations even by Christians don't ever spiral out of control (I'm sure Augustin's got some stories from Romania).
You have a talent of dulling the edges of sharp knifes. If I were of weeker mind you could surely convince.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #263 on: June 18, 2018, 08:29:41 PM »
How about calming down and getting ready for throwing tennis ball from across the room ```

Let's have all Homosexual diseased of body or not ~ together with the liars and arsewoles on one side of the auditorium ~ ~~~~ Orthodox Christians ~ and well ~  other Christians on the other side ~ now ~ No Liars - monkey man ~ everybody on their honor ( not sure how that's gona work )

Wait a minute ~ how can we know if a liar wants to stand with the Christians and voice for the filth and liars ```


Let's think this one out ~ ( Liars and Degenerates should not read this ) The Degenerated and liars are here ~ Only to infiltrate an Orthodox Christian Forum ~  why would they do that ~ to apply pressure and influence and to disrupt what might go on normally ~ just as in collage, government ~ here it more ~ just to be up in your face on your home ground ```

Monkey man has already said : He'll go ether way ~ with woman or man ~ but he says he's not a flat out homo punk cause he can go ether way ~~ so he gets to talk ~ homo cutesy verbal pictures of their filthy actions ~ here in the open ~ out front where Orthodox Ladies might come by to read ~ why not this is and Orthodox site ```

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I repaired a front step ~ here at the mountain ranch ~ you know what a ~ Dug Fir 2"X8"X10' runs up here ~ $13 ~ and the quality of construction grade is crap ~ they should be ashamed ```

Well ~ think I'll have a large brandy ( in this case Oghi ) as Dumbeledore would say ```
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 08:32:50 PM by Sethrak »

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #264 on: June 18, 2018, 08:39:17 PM »
That post made no sense whatsoever.

You remind me of Stashko. Once I said he could only be appreciated if you understood him to be like abstract art.

I think you're the same.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #265 on: June 18, 2018, 09:02:56 PM »
That post made no sense whatsoever.

You remind me of Stashko. Once I said he could only be appreciated if you understood him to be like abstract art.

I think you're the same.
It’s like stashko and pasadi made love, had a baby and had him baptized him non-Chalcedonian and he turned out a bit more of an ecumenist but also less funny.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 09:12:28 PM by augustin717 »
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Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #266 on: June 18, 2018, 09:13:49 PM »
That post made no sense whatsoever.

You remind me of Stashko. Once I said he could only be appreciated if you understood him to be like abstract art.

I think you're the same.
It’s like stashko and pasadi made love, had a baby and had him baptized him non-Chalcedonian and he turned out a bit more of an ecumenist but also less funny.

:)
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #267 on: June 18, 2018, 09:16:53 PM »
And what exactly do you think I'm lying about, Sethrak?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #268 on: June 18, 2018, 10:36:21 PM »
And this is assuming that advances in technology never allow homosexuals to conceive somehow. For example, there's a lesbian engineer who made an ejaculating strap-on. It uses donated semen from a man, but it's a start.

ROFL, This is normal to you? This is what the church should accept as "normal"? What about when 2 men take a pig uterus and strap it with hoses to one of their bellies? That'll be a sight to see at the liturgy, but it'll be normal...rofl

I thought you said that you were done talking to me.

Anyway, do you consider this normal?



If you knew the context of that and of Polio patients in the 1950s, when that type of iron lung was most heavily used, you would know that a large number of patients eventually recovered to the point where they were able to leave the iron lung, and still others were able to use positive pressure face masks.  There is a vast difference between using medical technology to keep people alive, vs. using genetic engineering to create embryos which would not otherwise be possible to create (and we should note, its quite possible babies born as a result of such genetic engineering may develop unexpected genetic diseases).

In line with Orthodox doctrine, I am opposed to abortion in all cases; with this kind of fertilization, it is also likely many embryos will be deemed non-viable and “discarded” which is to say, aborted.  However, I am opposed to the abortion of any babies born using this unnatural and unethical technique, although I believe the surrogate mother (in the case of male-male conception) or foster heterosexual parents, or pretty much anyone other than the two men or two women who “ordered” such an infant, should receive custody.  I’m firmly opposed to homosexuals raising children and consider it one of the great moral evils of our time.   There is a priest in Southern California, Fr. Trentham I believe is his name, who has written compelling arguments concerning the breakdown of the family.

Now, speaking of Orthodox doctrine, I should like to return to the subject of the iron lung.  Whereas abortion is universally condemned by the Orthodox hierarchy, I am not aware of a single bishop whoever condemned mechanical ventillation.   And let us stress that last bit just a tad: the iron lungs of the 1950s were among the first successful mechanical ventillators, but they would not be the last; a virtuous cycle of innovation in positive pressure ventillators and anaesthesia machines followed from the technical innovations that originated with the iron lung.   The iron lungs were used not just to treat Polio patients, but other respiratory cases as well, which nowadays would either be handled with a non-invasive face mask, minimally invasive respiration via a tracheotomy, or intubation on a ventilllator, which saved my beloved grandfather’s life and the life of one of my best friends, adding two years to to the life of my grandfather, and more than a decade to the life of my friend, which included what I believe were several of the happiest years of his life (he required mechanical ventillation following a horrific injury in which he was runover by a truck driven by an incapacitated driver).

 Both cases were cases of great mercy and blessing, in the spirit of medicine which the Church has always embraced; healing, in the manner of St. Luke and St. Panteleimon. 

In like manner, through the prayers of the Church, I believe we have the potential to bring about healing in the case of the truly repentent homosexual.  In fact, I am certain of it, as we have documented cases of saints who emerged from lives of self-abasement and indulgence of the passions.  A recent example of a person healed by the Church who will likely be glorified in the future is Fr. Seraphim Rose, whose book, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, I highly reccommend, both seriously and following the tradition of one of the funniest memes in the history of OCNet.

All joking aside, Fr. Seraphim Rose was able to escape the passions and built a beautiful monastery, which is to this day flourishing; I have friends who visited it who loved the experience, it looks a bit too rugged for me, although I might be up to it (I did grow up in the North Valley of California, after all) but they definitely had a holy experience with the monks who are the spiritual children and grandchildren of whom many of us venerate as St. Seraphim of Platina.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #269 on: June 18, 2018, 11:01:17 PM »
Not what the comparison was. Explained above.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:04:55 PM by Volnutt »
On an extended hiatus from this site. Please pray for me and my family.

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