Author Topic: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage  (Read 20486 times)

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #180 on: June 16, 2018, 12:27:46 AM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

I'm not sure if you noticed your switch in address, from "Lots of people" to "I just showed you."  It demonstrates that you're not, in this case, holding a discussion with me based on what I'm saying, but instead are addressing comments to the collective but acting as if you're addressing my points.  You haven't.  You degrade the actual human beings who are (or claim) homosexual attraction by comparing them to silverbacks.  You can't justify as dignified a human action by saying that it's found among lower primates and other animals.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

One of the points of parenthood is teaching kids not to do this, because it's (a) beneath their dignity, and (b) unsanitary.  By bringing kids into this you undercut your point.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?

Who said I'm shocked?  I'm not "shocked" by anything that humans do; sin is pervasive, the fallen nature of the world nearly inescapable (without Christ).

(BTW: Who said anything about "bugs?"  I brought up eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging poo, and you deflect with non-sequiturs about the benefits of eating bugs.  Ticks carry Lyme Disease and should be destroyed; eating anything out of one another's hair brings health risks.  If you want to make a general point, refute the specific one first.)

I already did. 

Show me where, because it's not evident (and, based on the rest of the thread, I'm not the only one missing it).

You are getting tiring.

If you don't like defending your position, then don't.  But this is a discussion forum, so if you're going to make points that folks disagree with, be prepared for the engagement.

A tick in general slang is a bug.

Never heard it used that way.

And I said, people probably shouldn't eat bugs, but they sometimes do.

Occasional deviations from the norm do not change the norm.

Putting you on Ignore. 

There are simpler ways of conceding that you're unwilling to engage in the discussion.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #181 on: June 16, 2018, 12:50:32 AM »
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware is walking a tight rope with a lot of his comments.  The church as a whole is never going to accept homosexual behavior.  He can dance around it all he wants but, it's not going to happen.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #182 on: June 16, 2018, 01:09:33 AM »
and the echo chamber in the wind tunnel drones on...

I think that's due to the nature of the discussion. Neither 'side' is really listening to the other. What we ought to be interested in is why people feel the way they do not that they feel that way.

In a sense the rules of the forum stack the deck against those who do not condemn homosexual behaviour. Anyone who supports the Church's position can refer simply to scripture and tradition without adding further justification. This is not the case for those who seek change.

Since this thread is presumably supposed to be about gay marriage, perhaps I can ask if any of us who have been living in a committed relationship with a partner, either of the opposite or the same sex, has not found themselves becoming less selfish and more caring, more willing to compromise and consider the welfare of one's partner, their relatives and friends. Assuming the answer is 'no', are self-giving and caring for others things the Church wishes to foster or to impede?

I'm not suggesting the Church needs to introduce a same-sex wedding ceremony. I find the idea appalling. But I am suggesting that perhaps some sort of 'economia' that turns a blind eye to (or even quietly supports) gay/lesbian couples may be a greater good. 



Offline Brilko

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #183 on: June 16, 2018, 01:36:05 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #184 on: June 16, 2018, 04:12:37 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

OK. So you believe that the scripture needs no interpretation and that tradition has never changed. In order to have a real dialogue with you one would have to argue against these points. That's something I leave up to others, though I believe history proves you wrong on both of these assumptions.

But let's all agree to keep the nifty robes.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 04:14:36 AM by FinnJames »

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #185 on: June 16, 2018, 08:21:10 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

This is of course entirely correct.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #186 on: June 16, 2018, 09:11:09 AM »


I think that's due to the nature of the discussion. Neither 'side' is really listening to the other. What we ought to be interested in is why people feel the way they do not that they feel that way.



The Church's tradition and God don't frankly care about what your feelings are on the matter.  To approach matters of doctrine from feelings is wrong. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:11:20 AM by scamandrius »
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #187 on: June 16, 2018, 09:13:00 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

OK. So you believe that the scripture needs no interpretation and that tradition has never changed. In order to have a real dialogue with you one would have to argue against these points. That's something I leave up to others, though I believe history proves you wrong on both of these assumptions.

But let's all agree to keep the nifty robes.

What has specifically changed in the church's tradition with regards to sexual morality that is an analogue to what we are discussing here?
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #188 on: June 16, 2018, 10:24:15 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

OK. So you believe that the scripture needs no interpretation and that tradition has never changed. In order to have a real dialogue with you one would have to argue against these points. That's something I leave up to others, though I believe history proves you wrong on both of these assumptions.

But let's all agree to keep the nifty robes.

What has specifically changed in the church's tradition with regards to sexual morality that is an analogue to what we are discussing here?

You might want to have a look at Eve Levin's fairly exhaustive study of Serbian, Bulgarian and Russian penitential handbooks, canon law and other documents in Sex and Society in the World of the Orthodox Slavs, 900-1700 (Cornell Univ. Press, 1989). Levin often notes a difference between what the early Church Fathers write and what Slavic canonists of the time write--and the differences between what she describes and what the Church (at least in Finland) expects of its parishioners today are striking. To take just one example from page 200, "According to St Basil. this offense [sodomy] carried a penalty of penance for fifteen years, as did adultery. Slavic canonists preferred the reduced penance of two or three years of fasting and prayer prescribed by St. John the Penitent."

Levin's chapter headings are: The Ecclesiastical Image of Sexuality, Marriage, Incest, Illicit Sex, Rape, Sex and the Clergy. So she is by no means pleading a special case for the acceptance of homosexuality, but I picked the quote as it refers to sodomy. Still, I'm perhaps wrong in assuming that adulterers in the Church today aren't expected to do 15 years of penance or even fast for two or three.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 10:25:50 AM by FinnJames »

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #189 on: June 16, 2018, 10:58:03 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

OK. So you believe that the scripture needs no interpretation and that tradition has never changed. In order to have a real dialogue with you one would have to argue against these points. That's something I leave up to others, though I believe history proves you wrong on both of these assumptions.

But let's all agree to keep the nifty robes.

What has specifically changed in the church's tradition with regards to sexual morality that is an analogue to what we are discussing here?

You might want to have a look at Eve Levin's fairly exhaustive study of Serbian, Bulgarian and Russian penitential handbooks, canon law and other documents in Sex and Society in the World of the Orthodox Slavs, 900-1700 (Cornell Univ. Press, 1989). Levin often notes a difference between what the early Church Fathers write and what Slavic canonists of the time write--and the differences between what she describes and what the Church (at least in Finland) expects of its parishioners today are striking. To take just one example from page 200, "According to St Basil. this offense [sodomy] carried a penalty of penance for fifteen years, as did adultery. Slavic canonists preferred the reduced penance of two or three years of fasting and prayer prescribed by St. John the Penitent."

Levin's chapter headings are: The Ecclesiastical Image of Sexuality, Marriage, Incest, Illicit Sex, Rape, Sex and the Clergy. So she is by no means pleading a special case for the acceptance of homosexuality, but I picked the quote as it refers to sodomy. Still, I'm perhaps wrong in assuming that adulterers in the Church today aren't expected to do 15 years of penance or even fast for two or three.

It refers to sodomy, not adulterers, yet both misses the mark in sin, your also confusing oikonomia with outright changing things to approve a very mortal sin in the Church. lessening the penance is much different than tolerance.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #190 on: June 16, 2018, 10:58:56 AM »
Well, lessening the penance is a form of tolerance, but it's partial rather than total. The thing is total tolerance cannot be.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #191 on: June 16, 2018, 11:06:30 AM »
Well, lessening the penance is a form of tolerance, but it's partial rather than total. The thing is total tolerance cannot be.

What I guess I am trying to say it mercy, rather than total approval.

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #192 on: June 16, 2018, 11:20:46 AM »


I think that's due to the nature of the discussion. Neither 'side' is really listening to the other. What we ought to be interested in is why people feel the way they do not that they feel that way.



The Church's tradition and God don't frankly care about what your feelings are on the matter.  To approach matters of doctrine from feelings is wrong.

This, to much FEELINGS and not enough logic. We gave them an inch already, and its been over a mile and no signs of them stopping their push of degeneracy on society.

To the person who asked if i had kids, yes i do. Young adults who are.bombarded at school, tv, the internet about how they should accept things that are degenerate. Ive tried to raise them to see the world how it is, and what to expect.


Offline Sharbel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #193 on: June 16, 2018, 11:30:50 AM »
This, to much FEELINGS and not enough logic. We gave them an inch already, and its been over a mile and no signs of them stopping their push of degeneracy on society.
No, they will not stop. Now they are encouraging pre pubescent children to come out and to cross dress (e.g. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/coming-next-woke-pederasty). A decade ago we were told that they just wanted same sex civil unions... There must never be any compromise with sin or with unrepentant sinners.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #194 on: June 16, 2018, 01:10:52 PM »
To the person who asked if i had kids, yes i do. Young adults who are.bombarded at school, tv, the internet about how they should accept things that are degenerate. Ive tried to raise them to see the world how it is, and what to expect.

If you have children in school the school board is supposed to serve you, not let teachers hold your kids captive. If you're concerned about what your children are being taught, ask to see the curriculum and gather as many facts as you can. If there are lessons you object to it's probable that many other parents feel the same way. Your children's school probably has a parents-teachers association; this would be a good group to work through initially as you would find active parents there. If you can bring together enough concerned parents, attend a school board meeting as a group to bring up your complaints. It might be helpful to contact the media. There are several videos of parents speaking against curricula that stand in opposition to their values available on YouTube. Good luck!

As for tv, if you are in the US your local stations will have to have a broadcasting license. Find out when it comes up for renewal and send the authorities a list of the complaints you have previously sent to the station about their programing.

When it comes to the internet, I think it's fair to say that every parent has the right--responsibility--to monitor what their children are doing when they sit before the screen.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 01:16:30 PM by FinnJames »

Offline Jakoblaj

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #195 on: June 16, 2018, 02:13:13 PM »
I hate the fact that I am gay.  I hate that I will never have a family.  I hate that I am forced to live a life of chastity when I feel no call towards that life whatsoever.  I hate the way that I have been treated by some parish members. 

Life is daunting and death is daunting.

Over the last few weeks with the number of posts and comments about gay people the rhetoric used is very disappointing to me.  I don't post very often on here, but I have been a very frequent visitor over the last four years and I don't know why I keep visiting.  It becomes very hard to digest.   

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #196 on: June 16, 2018, 02:33:35 PM »
Lord have mercy.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #197 on: June 16, 2018, 03:40:47 PM »
I hate the fact that I am gay.  I hate that I will never have a family.  I hate that I am forced to live a life of chastity when I feel no call towards that life whatsoever.  I hate the way that I have been treated by some parish members. 

Life is daunting and death is daunting.

Over the last few weeks with the number of posts and comments about gay people the rhetoric used is very disappointing to me.  I don't post very often on here, but I have been a very frequent visitor over the last four years and I don't know why I keep visiting.  It becomes very hard to digest.   

Continue on, You are struggling, God loves you, there many homosexual who took up the cross, and contained, this issue is very divisive, and I admit, I can admit I can be very harsh at times, out of preserving Christ, and Church from any innovations of change, not out of hate for you. You must rememberyour salvation is most important than any earthly pleasure, that also goes for straight people vices too. For some reason God has called you to the true faith, continue on, it not out of hate we oppose gay marriage but doctrine of creeds without innovation.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #198 on: June 16, 2018, 03:41:44 PM »
I hate the fact that I am gay.  I hate that I will never have a family.  I hate that I am forced to live a life of chastity when I feel no call towards that life whatsoever.  I hate the way that I have been treated by some parish members. 
There's only one solution for the brokenness of our sinful humanity: repentance and conversion of life.

Lord, have mercy.
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Offline Jakoblaj

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #199 on: June 16, 2018, 03:47:40 PM »

There's only one solution for the brokenness of our sinful humanity: repentance and conversion of life.

Lord, have mercy.

Yes, I am quite aware. 

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #200 on: June 16, 2018, 04:04:04 PM »
I read the Metropolitan's article in his voice and it took me two hours to read.

ROFL!    ;D  ;D

Just found this on Quotable Quotes...

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #201 on: June 16, 2018, 04:04:54 PM »

There's only one solution for the brokenness of our sinful humanity: repentance and conversion of life.

Lord, have mercy.

Yes, I am quite aware.

Please be aware that I love you as a fellow human being and a fellow Orthodox Christian and will pray for you.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #202 on: June 16, 2018, 05:36:37 PM »
Well, lessening the penance is a form of tolerance, but it's partial rather than total. The thing is total tolerance cannot be.
They do not want tolerance. They demand acceptance and embrace.

(I refer to those pushing the pink agenda, not FinnJames).
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Offline Jakoblaj

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #203 on: June 16, 2018, 05:38:14 PM »


Continue on, You are struggling, God loves you, there many homosexual who took up the cross, and contained, this issue is very divisive, and I admit, I can admit I can be very harsh at times, out of preserving Christ, and Church from any innovations of change, not out of hate for you. You must rememberyour salvation is most important than any earthly pleasure, that also goes for straight people vices too. For some reason God has called you to the true faith, continue on, it not out of hate we oppose gay marriage but doctrine of creeds without innovation.

And I in no way agree with the view that the church should innovate and be pressured to allow gay marriage.  I understand completely the reasons for staying with Tradition.  I don't want anyone to misconstrue my post and think I was implying that I would have that.  There is a reason I am still in the church, confessing and working towards repentance like any other Orthodox Christian.  (Which is humorous that some posters may think they need to remind me of that...oy...)

Luckily, I was granted the cross of being gay and having mental health issues...so much for the empty platitude that God does not give us more than we can handle.  I suppose what I was getting at was that the vitriolic language used when discussing gay persons, in and out of the church, does more harm than good.  And I, of course can not speak for every gay person in the church, but I know that when I read it is is very disheartening and discouraging.  For example, being called a sodomite (even when not having participated in sexual acts).  I apologize for being all over the place and fragment-y in this post, I am too exhausted to formulate thoughts...haha.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #204 on: June 16, 2018, 05:40:22 PM »

There's only one solution for the brokenness of our sinful humanity: repentance and conversion of life.

Lord, have mercy.

Yes, I am quite aware.

Please be aware that I love you as a fellow human being and a fellow Orthodox Christian and will pray for you.
Lord have mercy!
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #205 on: June 16, 2018, 05:41:25 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?

First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?

And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.

that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #206 on: June 16, 2018, 05:43:17 PM »


Continue on, You are struggling, God loves you, there many homosexual who took up the cross, and contained, this issue is very divisive, and I admit, I can admit I can be very harsh at times, out of preserving Christ, and Church from any innovations of change, not out of hate for you. You must rememberyour salvation is most important than any earthly pleasure, that also goes for straight people vices too. For some reason God has called you to the true faith, continue on, it not out of hate we oppose gay marriage but doctrine of creeds without innovation.

And I in no way agree with the view that the church should innovate and be pressured to allow gay marriage.  I understand completely the reasons for staying with Tradition.  I don't want anyone to misconstrue my post and think I was implying that I would have that.  There is a reason I am still in the church, confessing and working towards repentance like any other Orthodox Christian.  (Which is humorous that some posters may think they need to remind me of that...oy...)

Luckily, I was granted the cross of being gay and having mental health issues...so much for the empty platitude that God does not give us more than we can handle.  I suppose what I was getting at was that the vitriolic language used when discussing gay persons, in and out of the church, does more harm than good.  And I, of course can not speak for every gay person in the church, but I know that when I read it is is very disheartening and discouraging.  For example, being called a sodomite (even when not having participated in sexual acts).  I apologize for being all over the place and fragment-y in this post, I am too exhausted to formulate thoughts...haha.

FWIW (which I know isn't much), I'm so sorry that all this is happening to you :( No need to apologize for anything.

I'll be praying.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #207 on: June 16, 2018, 05:44:21 PM »


Continue on, You are struggling, God loves you, there many homosexual who took up the cross, and contained, this issue is very divisive, and I admit, I can admit I can be very harsh at times, out of preserving Christ, and Church from any innovations of change, not out of hate for you. You must rememberyour salvation is most important than any earthly pleasure, that also goes for straight people vices too. For some reason God has called you to the true faith, continue on, it not out of hate we oppose gay marriage but doctrine of creeds without innovation.


And I in no way agree with the view that the church should innovate and be pressured to allow gay marriage.  I understand completely the reasons for staying with Tradition.  I don't want anyone to misconstrue my post and think I was implying that I would have that.  There is a reason I am still in the church, confessing and working towards repentance like any other Orthodox Christian.  (Which is humorous that some posters may think they need to remind me of that...oy...)

Luckily, I was granted the cross of being gay and having mental health issues...so much for the empty platitude that God does not give us more than we can handle.  I suppose what I was getting at was that the vitriolic language used when discussing gay persons, in and out of the church, does more harm than good.  And I, of course can not speak for every gay person in the church, but I know that when I read it is is very disheartening and discouraging.  For example, being called a sodomite (even when not having participated in sexual acts).  I apologize for being all over the place and fragment-y in this post, I am too exhausted to formulate thoughts...haha.
loosely quoting a friend of mine :” I’m ok with gays having gay sex, but why would any sane person seek moral guidance from men in Black skirts is beyond me.”
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #208 on: June 16, 2018, 05:58:05 PM »


Continue on, You are struggling, God loves you, there many homosexual who took up the cross, and contained, this issue is very divisive, and I admit, I can admit I can be very harsh at times, out of preserving Christ, and Church from any innovations of change, not out of hate for you. You must rememberyour salvation is most important than any earthly pleasure, that also goes for straight people vices too. For some reason God has called you to the true faith, continue on, it not out of hate we oppose gay marriage but doctrine of creeds without innovation.


And I in no way agree with the view that the church should innovate and be pressured to allow gay marriage.  I understand completely the reasons for staying with Tradition.  I don't want anyone to misconstrue my post and think I was implying that I would have that.  There is a reason I am still in the church, confessing and working towards repentance like any other Orthodox Christian.  (Which is humorous that some posters may think they need to remind me of that...oy...)

Luckily, I was granted the cross of being gay and having mental health issues...so much for the empty platitude that God does not give us more than we can handle.  I suppose what I was getting at was that the vitriolic language used when discussing gay persons, in and out of the church, does more harm than good.  And I, of course can not speak for every gay person in the church, but I know that when I read it is is very disheartening and discouraging.  For example, being called a sodomite (even when not having participated in sexual acts).  I apologize for being all over the place and fragment-y in this post, I am too exhausted to formulate thoughts...haha.
loosely quoting a friend of mine :” I’m ok with gays having gay sex, but why would any sane person seek moral guidance from men in Black skirts is beyond me.”

But Marilyn Manson is a man in a black skirt and I've gotten a lot of moral guidance from him :'(




No, not really. I'm not even an MM fan. I wonder how many people in this thread will take that seriously.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 05:59:39 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #209 on: June 16, 2018, 06:17:31 PM »


Continue on, You are struggling, God loves you, there many homosexual who took up the cross, and contained, this issue is very divisive, and I admit, I can admit I can be very harsh at times, out of preserving Christ, and Church from any innovations of change, not out of hate for you. You must rememberyour salvation is most important than any earthly pleasure, that also goes for straight people vices too. For some reason God has called you to the true faith, continue on, it not out of hate we oppose gay marriage but doctrine of creeds without innovation.


And I in no way agree with the view that the church should innovate and be pressured to allow gay marriage.  I understand completely the reasons for staying with Tradition.  I don't want anyone to misconstrue my post and think I was implying that I would have that.  There is a reason I am still in the church, confessing and working towards repentance like any other Orthodox Christian.  (Which is humorous that some posters may think they need to remind me of that...oy...)

Luckily, I was granted the cross of being gay and having mental health issues...so much for the empty platitude that God does not give us more than we can handle.  I suppose what I was getting at was that the vitriolic language used when discussing gay persons, in and out of the church, does more harm than good.  And I, of course can not speak for every gay person in the church, but I know that when I read it is is very disheartening and discouraging.  For example, being called a sodomite (even when not having participated in sexual acts).  I apologize for being all over the place and fragment-y in this post, I am too exhausted to formulate thoughts...haha.
loosely quoting a friend of mine :” I’m ok with gays having gay sex, but why would any sane person seek moral guidance from men in Black skirts is beyond me.”

But Marilyn Manson is a man in a black skirt and I've gotten a lot of moral guidance from him :'(




No, not really. I'm not even an MM fan. I wonder how many people in this thread will take that seriously.
him or the good fathers at the AOIUSA . Same thing for some of us.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #210 on: June 16, 2018, 06:38:48 PM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

You'r right about that ~ if there was no Resurrection there is no Christianity ~ but of course the Resurrection and all else is True ``` We went to see and follow Christ ~ we went back and told our family and friends and went again ~ as did our cousins ~ we were there at Pentecost ~ the Apostles came to us ~ in our home countries ~ taught and did wonderful things ~ and we killed them ~ well ~ Our then king had them tortured ~ ( one Apostle of Christ was flayed alive ~ but the would not curse and deny The Christ ~ so the torture continued until they died ~ but we believed and worshiped the Lord as did our children and our children's children ~ until a wonderful thing happened ~ well ~ that is another story ```

Glory to God





seth
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 06:51:04 PM by Sethrak »
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline Opus118

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #211 on: June 16, 2018, 06:50:08 PM »
I went through this thread, and in my mind (or what is left of it), the Fr. Arida and homosexuality thread is more thoughtful and informative.
I reread Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's Foreword. It seemed a bit disorganized to me, but I did not see anything wrong with it.
I have now read Father Andrew Louth's editorial. I really liked it. In particular, starting at the last paragraph on page 15 (bottom right hand corner) to the end. This closely matches my feelings.
A person in my lab got a phone call recently and started crying and gagging and many other utterances which made it clear to me that someone very close  him died. This went on for about 15 minutes. He needed to be hugged, he needed to be caressed and spoken to softly with understanding and love and caring.  This is what I think God would want me to do but I failed because of what I perceived as current societal norms. I still feel awful about it. I should not care what other people think.

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #212 on: June 16, 2018, 10:06:47 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?
No matter how convoluted and clever the question, the answer is still NO.
First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?
Somebody can't take a simple answer. Perhaps a cartoon will help.


And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.
and the dots we are talking about do not connect, no matter how much you try to force it.
that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Not a presumption at all. A statement of absolute fact.

This week in SF I saw shops for women's shoes that had flood bait signs announcing with arrogance trying to pass itself off as pride that they also had men's sizes. Some should take the hint: if the shoe doesn't fit....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #213 on: June 16, 2018, 10:08:01 PM »


Continue on, You are struggling, God loves you, there many homosexual who took up the cross, and contained, this issue is very divisive, and I admit, I can admit I can be very harsh at times, out of preserving Christ, and Church from any innovations of change, not out of hate for you. You must rememberyour salvation is most important than any earthly pleasure, that also goes for straight people vices too. For some reason God has called you to the true faith, continue on, it not out of hate we oppose gay marriage but doctrine of creeds without innovation.


And I in no way agree with the view that the church should innovate and be pressured to allow gay marriage.  I understand completely the reasons for staying with Tradition.  I don't want anyone to misconstrue my post and think I was implying that I would have that.  There is a reason I am still in the church, confessing and working towards repentance like any other Orthodox Christian.  (Which is humorous that some posters may think they need to remind me of that...oy...)

Luckily, I was granted the cross of being gay and having mental health issues...so much for the empty platitude that God does not give us more than we can handle.  I suppose what I was getting at was that the vitriolic language used when discussing gay persons, in and out of the church, does more harm than good.  And I, of course can not speak for every gay person in the church, but I know that when I read it is is very disheartening and discouraging.  For example, being called a sodomite (even when not having participated in sexual acts).  I apologize for being all over the place and fragment-y in this post, I am too exhausted to formulate thoughts...haha.
loosely quoting a friend of mine :” I’m ok with gays having gay sex, but why would any sane person seek moral guidance from men in Black skirts is beyond me.”
is he another fool for Marx?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #214 on: June 16, 2018, 10:13:29 PM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

Which is why we stone to death women who do not have the tokens of virginity found in them after their wedding night. Also, we still stone to death every person who commits every crime found in Leviticus.

Oh wait, we don't do that. Only barbaric people do.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #215 on: June 16, 2018, 10:24:39 PM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

Which is why we stone to death women who do not have the tokens of virginity found in them after their wedding night. Also, we still stone to death every person who commits every crime found in Leviticus.

Oh wait, we don't do that. Only barbaric people do.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #216 on: June 16, 2018, 10:39:14 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?
No matter how convoluted and clever the question, the answer is still NO.

What's convoluted about, "these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"

First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?
Somebody can't take a simple answer. Perhaps a cartoon will help.


Aren't you the guy who used to argue that anal sex is fine between married straight people?

And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.
and the dots we are talking about do not connect, no matter how much you try to force it.
that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Not a presumption at all. A statement of absolute fact.

This week in SF I saw shops for women's shoes that had flood bait signs announcing with arrogance trying to pass itself off as pride that they also had men's sizes. Some should take the hint: if the shoe doesn't fit....

Much like the absolute fact that the Earth is flat (OT not NT, I know)?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #217 on: June 16, 2018, 11:38:56 PM »
Sorry for the botched quote tags in the second half of the post. I had to hit "submit" as I was walking out the door and I just now got back in.

Cleaned up:

Aren't you the guy who used to argue that anal sex is fine between married straight people?

And:

Much like the absolute fact that the Earth is flat (OT not NT, I know)?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #218 on: June 16, 2018, 11:46:58 PM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

I've been mulling the above over while the conversation here went on. It seems like an expression the 'house of cards' theory of the Church--one little shift and the whole house comes tumbling down. That might explain why some find or would find the presence of openly gay/lesbian people in their congregation such an existential threat: it endangers their own faith. After all, who doesn't know at least one person who joined the Orthodox Church because the X church down the street they were a member of started offering same-sex weddings? So those of us with homosexual inclinations have to keep a low profile so as not to ruin Christianity for our weaker brothers and sisters who are not so tempted. Doing this out of love for them is perhaps one of the ways we carry our cross.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #219 on: June 17, 2018, 12:11:47 AM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?
No matter how convoluted and clever the question, the answer is still NO.

What's convoluted about, "these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"
I've heard the same argument, more convincingly, from adulterers.

The answer is still NO.
First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?
Somebody can't take a simple answer. Perhaps a cartoon will help.


Aren't you the guy who used to argue that anal sex is fine between married straight people?
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.
And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.
and the dots we are talking about do not connect, no matter how much you try to force it.
that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Not a presumption at all. A statement of absolute fact.

This week in SF I saw shops for women's shoes that had flood bait signs announcing with arrogance trying to pass itself off as pride that they also had men's sizes. Some should take the hint: if the shoe doesn't fit....

Much like the absolute fact that the Earth is flat (OT not NT, I know)?
Ptolemy's Geographia isn't in the OT nor the NT.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 12:13:19 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #220 on: June 17, 2018, 12:16:08 AM »
Is the scripture and tradition right or wrong? If the scripture and the tradition are wrong, there is no Church. There’s a club of guys in nifty robes playing pretend. If the scripture and tradition are correct, the Church must hold to it.

I've been mulling the above over while the conversation here went on. It seems like an expression the 'house of cards' theory of the Church--one little shift and the whole house comes tumbling down. That might explain why some find or would find the presence of openly gay/lesbian people in their congregation such an existential threat: it endangers their own faith. After all, who doesn't know at least one person who joined the Orthodox Church because the X church down the street they were a member of started offering same-sex weddings? So those of us with homosexual inclinations have to keep a low profile so as not to ruin Christianity for our weaker brothers and sisters who are not so tempted. Doing this out of love for them is perhaps one of the ways we carry our cross.

Most of the converts I know joined because their previous churches were not right-wing enough. They were all, "I used to be an Episcopalian, but then they kinda went a little too far." You know that's code words for "they accept gay people and ordain women."
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #221 on: June 17, 2018, 12:46:55 AM »
Bringing Sister Vassa into the discussion may be like waving a red flag in front of a bull for some, but here's a link to a podcast where she talks about reactions to Met. Ware's foreword and Fr. Louth's contribution to the issue of The Wheel that the OP has in mind. The discussion of this topic begins around 18:30 in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z88Skoifxco

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #222 on: June 17, 2018, 01:42:54 AM »
Most of the converts I know joined because their previous churches were not right-wing enough. They were all, "I used to be an Episcopalian, but then they kinda went a little too far." You know that's code words for "they accept gay people and ordain women."
Never met such a person, sounds like an American problem.

I've been mulling the above over while the conversation here went on. It seems like an expression the 'house of cards' theory of the Church--one little shift and the whole house comes tumbling down. That might explain why some find or would find the presence of openly gay/lesbian people in their congregation such an existential threat: it endangers their own faith. After all, who doesn't know at least one person who joined the Orthodox Church because the X church down the street they were a member of started offering same-sex weddings? So those of us with homosexual inclinations have to keep a low profile so as not to ruin Christianity for our weaker brothers and sisters who are not so tempted. Doing this out of love for them is perhaps one of the ways we carry our cross.
That's very noble of yours, but in your shoes I'd give them a reality shock... If having a gay brother in faith doesn't do the job, the first clerical scandal will.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #223 on: June 17, 2018, 02:09:47 AM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?
No matter how convoluted and clever the question, the answer is still NO.

What's convoluted about, "these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"
I've heard the same argument, more convincingly, from adulterers.

The answer is still NO.

By adulterers, do you mean people cheating on their spouses or unmarried people cohabiting? Either way, I'm not sure it has that much application to what I'm talking about.

First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?
Somebody can't take a simple answer. Perhaps a cartoon will help.


Aren't you the guy who used to argue that anal sex is fine between married straight people?
I'm also the guy who has pointed out that according to homosexuals' stated preference, anal sex loses out to oral sex.

Ok, so anal sex is allowed but not oral? ??? Neither one is procreative, which I thought was the main traditional Orthodox objection.

Either way, you admit that the "wall socket" argument is a non-starter.

And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.
and the dots we are talking about do not connect, no matter how much you try to force it.

I don't think you have any warrant for saying that other than blunt assertion. Whatever happened to God having actual reasons for what He commands?

that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Not a presumption at all. A statement of absolute fact.

This week in SF I saw shops for women's shoes that had flood bait signs announcing with arrogance trying to pass itself off as pride that they also had men's sizes. Some should take the hint: if the shoe doesn't fit....

Much like the absolute fact that the Earth is flat (OT not NT, I know)?
Ptolemy's Geographia isn't in the OT nor the NT.

No, but the authors of the OT were men of their day who most likely accepted the common beliefs. Pythagoras, Eratosthenes, et al. only came on the scene as the OT was finishing up or already done.
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #224 on: June 17, 2018, 09:47:51 AM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.

Or have the specific questions that I'm asking just never come up before?
No matter how convoluted and clever the question, the answer is still NO.

What's convoluted about, "these people are committed to spending their lives together like any other couple and are not just having casual or abusive sex like ancient pagans?"

First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

Somebody actually unironically using the "Adam and Steve" meme in 2018, huh? Are you trying to look like cartoon character?
Somebody can't take a simple answer. Perhaps a cartoon will help.


Aren't you the guy who used to argue that anal sex is fine between married straight people?

And, no, at most Christ only implies the need for universal abolition. It was up to later generations to connect the dots.
and the dots we are talking about do not connect, no matter how much you try to force it.
that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.

Not a warranted presumption.
Not a presumption at all. A statement of absolute fact.

This week in SF I saw shops for women's shoes that had flood bait signs announcing with arrogance trying to pass itself off as pride that they also had men's sizes. Some should take the hint: if the shoe doesn't fit....

Much like the absolute fact that the Earth is flat (OT not NT, I know)?


Round and round we go, where it stops no genderless non binary pansexual furry z-x Kin, will know.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 09:48:28 AM by Rubricnigel »