Author Topic: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage  (Read 11621 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2018, 06:44:40 PM »
http://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217

Ill listen to my gut. Its unnatural, and sterile hence its against god

"Wisdom of disgust" arguments don't really prove anything. I'm sure that some people are disgusted by interracial marriage. too.

Ahhh there you again, conflating someone with skin color they can not change, born that way, with fallen people, who have the free will to chose it not chose to have sexual intercourse, or marry someone of the same sex,

Do they have the free will to?

Amazing...in an effort to defend homosexual persons and their dignity, you debase and dehumanize them in a way that goes beyond anything anyone else in this discussion has dared to suggest.

It's not dehumanizing if it's a problem common to most of humanity. Do you have the ability to just will yourself into celibacy without "burning with passion?" It seems to me that it's a gift from God that not everybody, gay or straight, is given.

I mean, yes, they can just not have sex for the rest of their lives. But it wouldn't be good for them or very successful (or humane to force on them with threats of Hell), much like it probably wouldn't be for you if you became a monk or something.

Throughout this thread, you have made outrageous claims by oversimplifying.  Stop.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2018, 07:24:17 PM »
How am I oversimplifying? Doesn't Paul say that the gift of celibacy is not something everybody has?
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2018, 07:45:54 PM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 07:48:11 PM by Sethrak »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2018, 07:57:33 PM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2018, 08:18:28 PM »
So you are the (word removed) Muslim lobbyist ~ evangelical monkey man ~ what else ~ do you play the guitar or tambourine ```



Just kidding ```

Please refrain from ad hominems.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 04:40:03 PM by LizaSymonenko »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2018, 08:25:43 PM »
How am I oversimplifying? Doesn't Paul say that the gift of celibacy is not something everybody has?
But some people are forced into it by other conditions.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2018, 08:28:22 PM »
So you are the Queer, Muslim lobbyist ~ evangelical monkey man ~ what else ~ do you play the guitar or tambourine ```



Just kidding ```

Ahyuck hyuck hyuck




Also, off topic, but I'm not a Muslim lobbyist. I just don't want to see them shoveled into gas chambers based on innuendo and stereotypes. Just to clarify.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2018, 08:29:06 PM »
How am I oversimplifying? Doesn't Paul say that the gift of celibacy is not something everybody has?
But some people are forced into it by other conditions.

True. But the charitable thing would be to make sure it only happens as a last resort.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 08:29:19 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2018, 08:31:39 PM »
Having a celibatary attitude to licit sex while wishing to drive sexual energy only to sin is already the last resort. You don't see it because nowadays homosexuality has been so normalised.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2018, 08:42:15 PM »
Homosexuals are gay.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2018, 08:43:22 PM »
Having a celibatary attitude to licit sex while wishing to drive sexual energy only to sin is already the last resort. You don't see it because nowadays homosexuality has been so normalised.

But like I said, why shouldn't it be normalised? The idea that gay sex can only ever be sinful comes down to us from a time when people had little to no idea that a stable, loving gay relationships could be a thing. That's not their fault, of course. It just hadn't really occurred to them.

Now we can clearly see that gay relationships can be just as functional and apparently happy as the average straight relationship. It seems like people might be continuing to call common that which God has made clean.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2018, 09:40:32 PM »
There's a whole theology of marriage that needs two genders to complete each other in its realisation. The human reproductive system itself fails to perform its function without being completed by the opposite sex. People always had "stable, loving relationships" with mistresses and eunuchs, and Israel and the Church always frowned upon it.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2018, 10:42:53 PM »
Having a celibatary attitude to licit sex while wishing to drive sexual energy only to sin is already the last resort. You don't see it because nowadays homosexuality has been so normalised.

But like I said, why shouldn't it be normalised? The idea that gay sex can only ever be sinful comes down to us from a time when people had little to no idea that a stable, loving gay relationships could be a thing. That's not their fault, of course. It just hadn't really occurred to them.

Now we can clearly see that gay relationships can be just as functional and apparently happy as the average straight relationship. It seems like people might be continuing to call common that which God has made clean.

Your saying the Church fathers, Christ himself, the Apostles, the martyrs, which this church is built upon us wrong, because Homosexuals "can live in loving relationships" , so can Mormons, who are into polygamy, so can people in certain countries marrying 9 year olds, yet it not what the Church has taught, and preserved in the sacrament of marriage, from generation to generation. Sorry Orthodoxy won't become Eastern Espciopalianism or a Eastern version of the ELCA, it will remain the same, our lord promised the gates of hell shall not prevail.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2018, 11:13:56 PM »
There's a whole theology of marriage that needs two genders to complete each other in its realisation.

That's one argument, yes. But I tend to think that this kind of essentialist complimentarian thinking was defeated the first time a woman put on pants or got a job.

The human reproductive system itself fails to perform its function without being completed by the opposite sex.

And yet the Church has no problem with straight couples who can't conceive. It seems to me that gay couples who adopt could perform a valuable social function of.

At any rate, for all we know advancing technology will allow gay couples to conceive someday.

People always had "stable, loving relationships" with mistresses and eunuchs, and Israel and the Church always frowned upon it.

Affairs are not possible without hurting somebody else, not very loving to the wronged party.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2018, 11:19:02 PM »
Traditional roles is one thing, sexuality is another, which expresses basic biology. It is a scientific fact that the reproductive system doesn't work without another people and that heterosexuality is necessary for the species to live on, while things like who works (protip: women worked - a lot - in ancient rural societies, regardless of what Vitorians would like to wonder).

Heterosexual couples who cannot conceive suffer from accidental flaws, while they can still live their essential marks otherwise.

And the reason why the Fathers were against eunuchs wasn't really who was being hurt... One might perfectly have a eunuch to satisfy their libido without being married. It would still be wrong. Ancient societies weren't as simple as they would look like through our modern lenses.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2018, 11:19:25 PM »
Having a celibatary attitude to licit sex while wishing to drive sexual energy only to sin is already the last resort. You don't see it because nowadays homosexuality has been so normalised.

But like I said, why shouldn't it be normalised? The idea that gay sex can only ever be sinful comes down to us from a time when people had little to no idea that a stable, loving gay relationships could be a thing. That's not their fault, of course. It just hadn't really occurred to them.

Now we can clearly see that gay relationships can be just as functional and apparently happy as the average straight relationship. It seems like people might be continuing to call common that which God has made clean.

Your saying the Church fathers, Christ himself, the Apostles, the martyrs, which this church is built upon us wrong,

A possible analogy- every Church Father who talked about it was a Geocentrist. That doesn't make them wrong, or mean that Geocentrism is true, it just makes them reflective of their time (Heliocentrism did exist in the ancient world, it was just always a minority view among the educated).

because Homosexuals "can live in loving relationships" , so can Mormons, who are into polygamy, so can people in certain countries marrying 9 year olds, yet it not what the Church has taught, and preserved in the sacrament of marriage, from generation to generation.

Polygamy is debatable, I guess (it's not like it doesn't have a history in the OT). Though there's certainly possible arguments to be made against it on abuse grounds. Nine year-olds are not capable of consenting to marriage, so that comparison doesn't fly.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2018, 11:20:31 PM »
"(Straight people) are against homosexuality because they cannot stop thinking of what gay men do with each other." - Quentin Crisp
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2018, 11:22:03 PM »
"(Straight people) are against homosexuality because they cannot stop thinking of what gay men do with each other." - Quentin Crisp
Wooo... hot!
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2018, 11:25:40 PM »
I predict that both of the current threads on gay people will be closed early tomorrow.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2018, 11:32:39 PM »
Traditional roles is one thing, sexuality is another, which expresses basic biology. It is a scientific fact that the reproductive system doesn't work without another people and that heterosexuality is necessary for the species to live on, while things like who works (protip: women worked - a lot - in ancient rural societies, regardless of what Vitorians would like to wonder).

They did work, which shows that the reductive idea of man as provider, woman as provided for doesn't completely match reality.

Heterosexual couples who cannot conceive suffer from accidental flaws, while they can still live their essential marks otherwise.

In other words, there are cases in which biology is not one of the essential marks of a marriage.

And why is the species living on such a big deal? Let it whither away to hasten the eschaton. It's not like homosexuals will ever be the majority of humanity, anyway (and it's also not like IVF doesn't exist if it's really needed that badly).

And the reason why the Fathers were against eunuchs wasn't really who was being hurt... One might perfectly have a eunuch to satisfy their libido without being married. It would still be wrong. Ancient societies weren't as simple as they would look like through our modern lenses.

Weren't eunuchs almost entirely slaves? I'd say that's inherently abusive, for one thing.

Beyond that, perhaps if they'd lived today he and that free eunuch would have wanted to get married- but nobody in that time, including they themselves, could really conceptualize it.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 11:33:50 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2018, 12:25:15 AM »

A possible analogy- every Church Father who talked about it was a Geocentrist. That doesn't make them wrong, or mean that Geocentrism is true, it just makes them reflective of their time (Heliocentrism did exist in the ancient world, it was just always a minority view among the educated).

So your argument goes that since every church father who condemned homosexual acts was a geocentrist (you're going to have to cite some source to prove that) and geocentrism is obviously incorrect, they are also wrong about homosexuality.  Because those two things are SO closely related to one another.  I'm sure that the church fathers who are  now living among the saints all said, "Well, we were wrong about the earth being the center of the universe so it only makes logical sense that homosexual acts are also ok.  Who knew?" 
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #111 on: June 15, 2018, 12:34:16 AM »
http://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217

Ill listen to my gut. Its unnatural, and sterile hence its against god

I'm sterile. I can't have children, because I have ovarian cysts. I'm a heterosexual woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order.

Im sorry you cant have kids, did you choose to have cysts?
My point is being gay is a choie, i know you didnt choose to have cysts.
If i post a pic of a mouse having sex with a dead mouse in a trap does that mean necrophilia is natural?
Animals arent human, they live on impulses and sex is a big one because in the wild someone might eat you, so its best to be able to procreate earlier in its life cycle In the case of the gorillas they might have sex with younger males but id be willing to bet they still seek out the females.

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #112 on: June 15, 2018, 12:42:58 AM »
The difference is that incest, affairs, etc. at least have alternatives...

How so?  If I want to have sex with my sister, having sex with someone else’s sister (as nice an experience as it may be for the latter) just isn’t going to cut it for me.

Yes, but you can have sex with some other woman, even if it's a little disappointing. A gay person has three choices- celibacy, castration, or hell.

Thats if you believe that they were born that way, which i dont and many others agree with. Like most sins they are taught and how many men that have had a same sex affair turned straight and stayed straight.

Oh cool. More pseduoscience from the antivaxxer. Give me a second to realign my chakras before you start.

The problem is, if the church caves to homosexuals, then it must do so for every other degenerate mental disorder. So mext year we'll have the same discussion about men who've chopped off their "digit", then the next year incest, the next beastiality. Its just a slight shifting of the overton window over and over till the church is destroyed.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy unless you can show that one thing really will lead to another.

Just like people in this thread keep putting scare quotes around gay marriage in the hope that it sticks, you just saying that it's a mental disorder doesn't make it so.

So 20 years ago we had cross dressers demanding to have laws changed to allow them to access female locker rooms/bathrooms? We had gay groups demanding jail time for anyone who calls someone the wrong pronoun?
No we didnt, and if you cant see how the GAY AGENDA has progressively pushed more and more degeneracy from gay rights to trans, to no binary gender dysphoria, to drag queen kids, ill call you blind.
     Everyone can see the progession in the past few decades,
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As a parent who sees the content being pushed at the youth im appalled. Like i said before, they are pushing for our kids to be gay, to accept it as NORMAL.
  People who push a 10 year old boy into being gay dont have a mental disorder? Huh, i guess thats normal.....
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 12:44:18 AM by Rubricnigel »

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2018, 12:47:25 AM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.

You BIGOT, why cant jimmy and scoobydoo get married? He was born loving dogs, its natural and you are a hateful bigot.
Scooby loves jimmy he shows his affection everyday.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #114 on: June 15, 2018, 12:59:04 AM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.

You BIGOT, why cant jimmy and scoobydoo get married? He was born loving dogs, its natural and you are a hateful bigot.
Scooby loves jimmy he shows his affection everyday.

Awww that such discrimination, all Jimmy wants is a Scooby snack, it only "natural".
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 12:59:37 AM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #115 on: June 15, 2018, 01:10:24 AM »
They did work, which shows that the reductive idea of man as provider, woman as provided for doesn't completely match reality.
Yeah, but that's culture, not body theology or ontology;

Quote
In other words, there are cases in which biology is not one of the essential marks of a marriage.
Yeah, there are cases where biology doesn't allow natural desire and a natural institution to get to it's final consequences. But it's still natural.

Quote
And why is the species living on such a big deal? Let it whither away to hasten the eschaton. It's not like homosexuals will ever be the majority of humanity, anyway (and it's also not like IVF doesn't exist if it's really needed that badly).
My point is not really practical, but biological. Life comes through procreation. Sex works for that. A necessarily sterile sexual desire is a desire toward sin. It is different from a natural and healthy desire that happens to not be fully accomplished due to health flaws. Being a man or being a woman is not a health flaw, it's nature working.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 01:10:59 AM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #116 on: June 15, 2018, 01:23:12 AM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.

You BIGOT, why cant jimmy and scoobydoo get married? He was born loving dogs, its natural and you are a hateful bigot.
Scooby loves jimmy he shows his affection everyday.

Yes, because a dog showing affection for his owner is the same as one adult human falling in love with another.


And Mor said that I was being dehumanizing.

The difference is that incest, affairs, etc. at least have alternatives...

How so?  If I want to have sex with my sister, having sex with someone else’s sister (as nice an experience as it may be for the latter) just isn’t going to cut it for me.

Yes, but you can have sex with some other woman, even if it's a little disappointing. A gay person has three choices- celibacy, castration, or hell.

Thats if you believe that they were born that way, which i dont and many others agree with. Like most sins they are taught and how many men that have had a same sex affair turned straight and stayed straight.

Oh cool. More pseduoscience from the antivaxxer. Give me a second to realign my chakras before you start.

The problem is, if the church caves to homosexuals, then it must do so for every other degenerate mental disorder. So mext year we'll have the same discussion about men who've chopped off their "digit", then the next year incest, the next beastiality. Its just a slight shifting of the overton window over and over till the church is destroyed.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy unless you can show that one thing really will lead to another.

Just like people in this thread keep putting scare quotes around gay marriage in the hope that it sticks, you just saying that it's a mental disorder doesn't make it so.

So 20 years ago we had cross dressers demanding to have laws changed to allow them to access female locker rooms/bathrooms? We had gay groups demanding jail time for anyone who calls someone the wrong pronoun?

I never said we did.

No we didnt, and if you cant see how the GAY AGENDA has progressively pushed more and more degeneracy from gay rights to trans, to no binary gender dysphoria, to drag queen kids, ill call you blind.

The "gay agenda" is just people like you and me (some of them Christian. Some even Orthodox, I'm sure) who just want to live their lives without being harassed (legally or interpersonally- like when some well-intentioned spiritual abuser tells them that they're going to Hell for being who they are).



Everyone can see the progession in the past few decades,
https://desmondisamazing.com
As a parent who sees the content being pushed at the youth im appalled. Like i said before, they are pushing for our kids to be gay, to accept it as NORMAL.
  People who push a 10 year old boy into being gay dont have a mental disorder? Huh, i guess thats normal.....

Who says the kid is being pushed? Allowing them to do something they can't easily take back, like surgery, is probably a bad idea on the part of the parents. But who's being harmed by allowing them to live how they want to right now and either confirm a trans identity or not for themselves as they grow up and find out who they are like any other child does?

Seems to me that getting a bunch of adults and authority figures together to try and coerce the kid into gender conformity will do a heck of a lot more psychological harm than that (and woe betide the parents if the kid doesn't grow up agreeing with such a decision).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #117 on: June 15, 2018, 01:28:32 AM »

A possible analogy- every Church Father who talked about it was a Geocentrist. That doesn't make them wrong, or mean that Geocentrism is true, it just makes them reflective of their time (Heliocentrism did exist in the ancient world, it was just always a minority view among the educated).

So your argument goes that since every church father who condemned homosexual acts was a geocentrist (you're going to have to cite some source to prove that)

Were there any Fathers at all who weren't Geocentrist? I mean, I guess you can't argue from silence, but I don't know of any preaching Heliocentrism, and it wouldn't be hard to see it as a bone of contention theologically with the whole "man has been placed at the center of the Cosmos" thing.

and geocentrism is obviously incorrect, they are also wrong about homosexuality.  Because those two things are SO closely related to one another.  I'm sure that the church fathers who are  now living among the saints all said, "Well, we were wrong about the earth being the center of the universe so it only makes logical sense that homosexual acts are also ok.  Who knew?"

Both are based on physical and philosophical models of the way nature works, both have been more or less dissproven by this point. Science marches on.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #118 on: June 15, 2018, 01:33:50 AM »
They did work, which shows that the reductive idea of man as provider, woman as provided for doesn't completely match reality.
Yeah, but that's culture, not body theology or ontology;

Careful, too much of that kind of talk and Nigel might call you a feminist. ;)

If it's really God's will that women don't work, then why were they made capable of doing it?

Quote
In other words, there are cases in which biology is not one of the essential marks of a marriage.
Yeah, there are cases where biology doesn't allow natural desire and a natural institution to get to it's final consequences. But it's still natural.

Then what makes the institution natural? How do you tell a bug from a feature here?

Quote
And why is the species living on such a big deal? Let it whither away to hasten the eschaton. It's not like homosexuals will ever be the majority of humanity, anyway (and it's also not like IVF doesn't exist if it's really needed that badly).
My point is not really practical, but biological. Life comes through procreation. Sex works for that. A necessarily sterile sexual desire is a desire toward sin. It is different from a natural and healthy desire that happens to not be fully accomplished due to health flaws. Being a man or being a woman is not a health flaw, it's nature working.

So, an infertile straight person is sinning by desiring to get married?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #119 on: June 15, 2018, 02:03:06 AM »
If it's really God's will that women don't work, then why were they made capable of doing it?
Oh I never said that. On the contrary, most women worked for most of history somehow (helping their husbands, but still). I believe the ideal of a homestay wife is a Victorian myth.

Quote
Then what makes the institution natural? How do you tell a bug from a feature here?
The own nature of man and woman.

Quote
So, an infertile straight person is sinning by desiring to get married?
No, because this desire can have a pure origin, a pure end, a pure object and a pure result. They may be biologically incapable of having the fullness of results, but it's still all natural and licit.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #120 on: June 15, 2018, 03:01:56 AM »
If it's really God's will that women don't work, then why were they made capable of doing it?
Oh I never said that. On the contrary, most women worked for most of history somehow (helping their husbands, but still). I believe the ideal of a homestay wife is a Victorian myth.

Fair enough. But what does this tell us about the nature of the genders and their natural roles if women don't as much need men to protect them?

Quote
Then what makes the institution natural? How do you tell a bug from a feature here?
The own nature of man and woman.

Quote
So, an infertile straight person is sinning by desiring to get married?
No, because this desire can have a pure origin, a pure end, a pure object and a pure result. They may be biologically incapable of having the fullness of results, but it's still all natural and licit.

But if the end can be pure even without children, why can't a gay relationship also be pure? They can at least have the same results in practice via adoption. And if God can work a miracle for Abraham and Sarah, and for other infertile straight couples, what's stopping Him from miraculously enabling a gay couple to conceive? Faith of a mustard seed and all that.

Heck, if we somehow, someday develop the technology to enable some kind of same sex conception, how do we know that's not the perfect will of God to enable gay couples to conceive?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #121 on: June 15, 2018, 05:54:46 AM »
Fair enough. But what does this tell us about the nature of the genders and their natural roles if women don't as much need men to protect them?
Not much, at least not prescriptively.

Quote
But if the end can be pure even without children, why can't a gay relationship also be pure? They can at least have the same results in practice via adoption. And if God can work a miracle for Abraham and Sarah, and for other infertile straight couples, what's stopping Him from miraculously enabling a gay couple to conceive? Faith of a mustard seed and all that.

Heck, if we somehow, someday develop the technology to enable some kind of same sex conception, how do we know that's not the perfect will of God to enable gay couples to conceive?
Sure, God's will can extrapolate any of our theories, but that's not what he wants. He made it very clear in Scripture. Hebrews and Christians have done far more subversive stuff than gay marriage in our long history and none of it included blessing homosexual unions, on the contrary. No saint suggested that, no Scripture left room for that. If sodomy were something as trivial as pork or Saturday, we would have found out without people who have absolutely nothing to do with the Church telling us so. Church history is not dialectic with the world, at least not intrinsically. The only dialectics of the Church are extrinsic: the City of God vs. the City of Man, or Orthodoxy vs. The Religion of the Future.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #122 on: June 15, 2018, 08:12:22 AM »
Quote
No we didnt, and if you cant see how the GAY AGENDA has progressively pushed more and more degeneracy from gay rights to trans, to no binary gender dysphoria, to drag queen kids, ill call you blind.

Not only gay, the LGBT political militancy as a whole wants to push all kinds of degeneracy, the lesbian and gay are the first part, then transgender people, then who knows, trans-age people (there are people claiming that already), and from trans-age it is just a little step to the ultimate goal, open and legalized paedophilia.

 Before someone says that I am accusing all gays of paedophilia, I am not, but saying that the financers and hidden figures (really powerful people in the media outlets, governments, corporations, Hollywood, pop music industry, banks...) of the LGBT political movement are working to desensitize society more and more till abhorrent degeneracies are normalized and treated as homossexuality is treated today in western countries.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #124 on: June 15, 2018, 11:40:07 AM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.

You BIGOT, why cant jimmy and scoobydoo get married? He was born loving dogs, its natural and you are a hateful bigot.
Scooby loves jimmy he shows his affection everyday.

Yes, because a dog showing affection for his owner is the same as one adult human falling in love with another.


And Mor said that I was being dehumanizing.

The difference is that incest, affairs, etc. at least have alternatives...

How so?  If I want to have sex with my sister, having sex with someone else’s sister (as nice an experience as it may be for the latter) just isn’t going to cut it for me.

Yes, but you can have sex with some other woman, even if it's a little disappointing. A gay person has three choices- celibacy, castration, or hell.

Thats if you believe that they were born that way, which i dont and many others agree with. Like most sins they are taught and how many men that have had a same sex affair turned straight and stayed straight.

Oh cool. More pseduoscience from the antivaxxer. Give me a second to realign my chakras before you start.

The problem is, if the church caves to homosexuals, then it must do so for every other degenerate mental disorder. So mext year we'll have the same discussion about men who've chopped off their "digit", then the next year incest, the next beastiality. Its just a slight shifting of the overton window over and over till the church is destroyed.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy unless you can show that one thing really will lead to another.

Just like people in this thread keep putting scare quotes around gay marriage in the hope that it sticks, you just saying that it's a mental disorder doesn't make it so.

So 20 years ago we had cross dressers demanding to have laws changed to allow them to access female locker rooms/bathrooms? We had gay groups demanding jail time for anyone who calls someone the wrong pronoun?

I never said we did.

No we didnt, and if you cant see how the GAY AGENDA has progressively pushed more and more degeneracy from gay rights to trans, to no binary gender dysphoria, to drag queen kids, ill call you blind.

The "gay agenda" is just people like you and me (some of them Christian. Some even Orthodox, I'm sure) who just want to live their lives without being harassed (legally or interpersonally- like when some well-intentioned spiritual abuser tells them that they're going to Hell for being who they are).



Everyone can see the progession in the past few decades,
https://desmondisamazing.com
As a parent who sees the content being pushed at the youth im appalled. Like i said before, they are pushing for our kids to be gay, to accept it as NORMAL.
  People who push a 10 year old boy into being gay dont have a mental disorder? Huh, i guess thats normal.....

Who says the kid is being pushed? Allowing them to do something they can't easily take back, like surgery, is probably a bad idea on the part of the parents. But who's being harmed by allowing them to live how they want to right now and either confirm a trans identity or not for themselves as they grow up and find out who they are like any other child does?

Seems to me that getting a bunch of adults and authority figures together to try and coerce the kid into gender conformity will do a heck of a lot more psychological harm than that (and woe betide the parents if the kid doesn't grow up agreeing with such a decision).

You side step all my statements, then claim its ok for a kid t behave how they want. When my kid was little she pretended to be a unicorn, should i have tried to get her surgeries and helped her transition?

I dont claim 100% of gays push the movement to ever more degrading societal behavior, but the fact that the movement does doesnt change the fact its happening.

You dont think the Overton window has shifted? Societal norms have degraded and i dont see the GAY AGENDA stopping its push for ever more degeneracy in society. My statement is, when dose it stop? What the real goal, because like ive said gays can marry, they have legal protection, they aee excepted in 2018 society  (i don't thinkit should be, but it is) so why do they keep pushing revolution/rebellion against societal norms?

We are on opposite ends of this, i wont change yours, and you wont change mine. Enjoy the weekend.

To all others please watch the video, its spot on

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-OXt5NWcRs

E. MIchael jones, a scholar and author sums it up in under 10mins.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #125 on: June 15, 2018, 01:22:40 PM »
You dont think the Overton window has shifted? Societal norms have degraded and i dont see the GAY AGENDA stopping its push for ever more degeneracy in society. My statement is, when dose it stop?

As far as I can determine, heterosexuals are the majority in every society. And there are also conservative gays/lesbians who are horrified by how fast and far the western world is moving toward licentiousness and the questioning of biological gender who are potential allies. So why have people let the pendulum swing so far away from traditional values?

Perhaps rather than ranting about the 'gay agenda' heterosexual people need to set boundaries for what is and is not acceptable in their communities. One might begin by at least enforcing the laws about indecent behaviour which do exist to tone down the excesses of some(?) gay pride parades and the streets of some gay neighbourhoods. Of course it would also be helpful if heterosexual couples could tone down their displays of affection in public as well.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2018, 01:26:49 PM »

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2018, 01:29:15 PM »
The gay agenda, probably: going to school, getting a job, maybe settling down.

The gay agenda, probably not: assaulting someone in a washroom.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #128 on: June 15, 2018, 01:30:11 PM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.

You BIGOT, why cant jimmy and scoobydoo get married? He was born loving dogs, its natural and you are a hateful bigot.
Scooby loves jimmy he shows his affection everyday.

Yes, because a dog showing affection for his owner is the same as one adult human falling in love with another.


And Mor said that I was being dehumanizing.

And I was right. 

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2018, 02:02:22 PM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2018, 02:27:04 PM »
The Lord only destroyed two towns in that story.

He destroyed much, much more in the flood of Noah.

What does that say about Noah, who slept with his daughters after the flood?
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2018, 02:40:26 PM »
You dont think the Overton window has shifted? Societal norms have degraded and i dont see the GAY AGENDA stopping its push for ever more degeneracy in society. My statement is, when dose it stop?

As far as I can determine, heterosexuals are the majority in every society. And there are also conservative gays/lesbians who are horrified by how fast and far the western world is moving toward licentiousness and the questioning of biological gender who are potential allies. So why have people let the pendulum swing so far away from traditional values?

Perhaps rather than ranting about the 'gay agenda' heterosexual people need to set boundaries for what is and is not acceptable in their communities. One might begin by at least enforcing the laws about indecent behaviour which do exist to tone down the excesses of some(?) gay pride parades and the streets of some gay neighbourhoods. Of course it would also be helpful if heterosexual couples could tone down their displays of affection in public as well.

Probably good points, yeah.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2018, 02:44:51 PM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.

You BIGOT, why cant jimmy and scoobydoo get married? He was born loving dogs, its natural and you are a hateful bigot.
Scooby loves jimmy he shows his affection everyday.

Yes, because a dog showing affection for his owner is the same as one adult human falling in love with another.


And Mor said that I was being dehumanizing.

And I was right.

Well, I don't want to dehumanize anybody and I welcome correction. But you've not told me how you think I'm dehumanizing gay people, nor how I'm oversimplifying related issues.

Perhaps I phrased it poorly, but my contention is simply that "have you tried not being gay?" is unlikely to work for the majority any more than "have you tried not being straight?" is likely to work for you.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2018, 02:49:46 PM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?

The sin of Sodom (or rather, one of the sins, Ezekiel 16 also mentions their lack of charity) was not just gay sex, it was attempted rape. Isn't that like saying that a story about an ax murderer is really about the ax?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2018, 02:50:47 PM »
The Lord only destroyed two towns in that story.

He destroyed much, much more in the flood of Noah.

What does that say about Noah, who slept with his daughters after the flood?

I think the causes for the Lord’s “wrath” is not identical in both accounts. I cannot recall if Noah willingly slept with his daughters. Lot didn’t willingly sleep with his daughters.Obviously incest is condemned as per Leviticus 18, 19, 20 etc.

I believe Christ upheld the traditional morality but condemned humans judging & killing moral offenders since no one can cast the first stone. We have “saints” like Justinian in the church so the Lord’s preaching has not often been heeded it seems.

It seems like either mercy is lacking in our understanding or how to deal with sin. I am not trying to exalt myself just trying to figure things out . Have to break off at this point, probably have typos.
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