Author Topic: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage  (Read 11497 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #360 on: June 22, 2018, 07:18:05 AM »
I have to go for now, but I will pick up this discussion later tonight. Thanks for the conversation, Volnutt.

You too. Have a good day.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #361 on: June 22, 2018, 07:18:41 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

You know what's crueler than being gay?
How about being born with low-performance autism - which, with the friends of my family, caused a divorce due to financial management issues and infighting.

What about being born with visual schizophrenia? Or severe, incurable seizures? How about clinical depression? How about people getting incurable cancer?

The world is filled with suffering - but we just have to suck it up, trust in God, and be the best people we can be.

It's a lie - and a heresy - to believe that the world can be cured of all of it's problems merely by forcing society and the government to act a certain way. We are too selfish and flawed to fix it.

Yes, life is cruel. That's why we shouldn't make it even more cruel unless we absolutely have to.

Well, that begs the question of the results of cruelty that can be made apparent hypothetically, after same-sex marriage becomes acceptable.

Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that heterosexual couples are restricted by the Church in terms of sexual relationships compared to same-sex couples? Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that children will not have the dynamic of having both a mother and a father to help raise them? Especially for children of the opposite sex who go through puberty and may not receive the answers they are looking for? What about the children in terms of finding a Faith in God - the fact that it would be harder in the sight of clear contradiction by what the Church, the Bible, the Church Fathers, and even some Apocrypha text which some Church Fathers say is canon to believe in God and restrain their passions, ending up in a miserable state of life? Is it fair for heterosexuals to fix the bathroom problem and to have to get changed in front of someone sexually attracted to them? Is it fair for the children of bisexual women to have a higher risk of HIV and death? Is it fair that these people can have clearly unnatural sexual attraction for the same sex, while I can't screw my own animals? Etc. etc. etc.

If this is your temptation you need to talk to your priest asap.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #362 on: June 22, 2018, 07:39:02 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

You know what's crueler than being gay?
How about being born with low-performance autism - which, with the friends of my family, caused a divorce due to financial management issues and infighting.

What about being born with visual schizophrenia? Or severe, incurable seizures? How about clinical depression? How about people getting incurable cancer?

The world is filled with suffering - but we just have to suck it up, trust in God, and be the best people we can be.

It's a lie - and a heresy - to believe that the world can be cured of all of it's problems merely by forcing society and the government to act a certain way. We are too selfish and flawed to fix it.

Yes, life is cruel. That's why we shouldn't make it even more cruel unless we absolutely have to.

Well, that begs the question of the results of cruelty that can be made apparent hypothetically, after same-sex marriage becomes acceptable.

Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that heterosexual couples are restricted by the Church in terms of sexual relationships compared to same-sex couples? Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that children will not have the dynamic of having both a mother and a father to help raise them? Especially for children of the opposite sex who go through puberty and may not receive the answers they are looking for? What about the children in terms of finding a Faith in God - the fact that it would be harder in the sight of clear contradiction by what the Church, the Bible, the Church Fathers, and even some Apocrypha text which some Church Fathers say is canon to believe in God and restrain their passions, ending up in a miserable state of life? Is it fair for heterosexuals to fix the bathroom problem and to have to get changed in front of someone sexually attracted to them? Is it fair for the children of bisexual women to have a higher risk of HIV and death? Is it fair that these people can have clearly unnatural sexual attraction for the same sex, while I can't screw my own animals? Etc. etc. etc.

I didn't see this till now. Kind of a Gish Gallop, to be honest, but briefly:

Quote
Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that heterosexual couples are restricted by the Church in terms of sexual relationships compared to same-sex couples?

I don't know what you mean.

Quote
Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that children will not have the dynamic of having both a mother and a father to help raise them? Especially for children of the opposite sex who go through puberty and may not receive the answers they are looking for?

Assumes a level of gender essentialism that I'm not sure is clearly evident. Ignores the influence of other relatives, the community, etc. in raising children.

Quote
What about the children in terms of finding a Faith in God - the fact that it would be harder in the sight of clear contradiction by what the Church, the Bible, the Church Fathers, and even some Apocrypha text which some Church Fathers say is canon to believe in God and restrain their passions, ending up in a miserable state of life?

First of all, you're kind of begging the question. Second, faith in God is pretty difficult anyway just owing to the [insert complex apologetics issue here]. One more issue on top of the pile sucks, but I'm not sure it really compares to the suffering it's alleviating.

Quote
Is it fair for heterosexuals to fix the bathroom problem and to have to get changed in front of someone sexually attracted to them?

You mean like how they already change in front of bisexuals?

It's possible, though difficult, to consider trans issues separately from gay ones. I'll bite that bullet if I have to, though I don't want to.

Quote
Is it fair for the children of bisexual women to have a higher risk of HIV and death?

How do we know that being the children of bisexual women is what causes this risk? There's some blanks here that need to be filled in.

Quote
Is it fair that these people can have clearly unnatural sexual attraction for the same sex, while I can't screw my own animals?

Bestiality is not a relationship. At best it's just a form of masturbation. At worst it's the rape of a being that can't comprehend sex on the same level as we do.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:40:55 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #363 on: June 22, 2018, 07:51:49 AM »
Is it fair for heterosexuals to fix the bathroom problem and to have to get changed in front of someone sexually attracted to them?

You mean it has never crossed your mind that some of the other men changing with you in your all-male bathroom might already be sexually attracted to you?
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Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #364 on: June 22, 2018, 09:03:25 AM »
In the Garden:
Eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God wants you to. He has forbade you because He doesn't want you to be like Him. Just second guess His Word.

Other Historical revisions:
Fornication isn't a sin. People can't help having sex, men and women have a burning desire, its cruel to force them to live without sex. The Church should change its teaching. Sex is natural.

A fetus isn't a baby. Abortion isn't a sin. Its cruel to force a woman to have stay pregnant and give birth when she doesn't want too. Her body, her choice. The Church should change its teaching.

Love is Love. Two homosexuals are the same as two heterosexuals. Homosexual sex is not a sin and homosexuality isn't sinful. People don't have a choice. Its cruel to say its a sin. The Church should change its teaching.


The argument that condemning homosexual acts as sin is cruel is just another demonic lie from the deceiver. Literally every one uses that argument to justify accepting sin and try and force the Church to change its teaching.

"If you say homosexuality is sinful people will kill themselves, its cruel"
A disgusting argument that is. I'm being held hostage and forced to act and believe a certain way or people will kill themselves. Demonic deception and mental illness.
I'm not cruel or attempting to be cruel, I do care about everyone. To arbitrarily accuse me (or anyone of being cruel) is the actual cruelty. It also essentially makes cruelty subjective, which its not. Its not cruelty to keep the teaching of Christ.

When you make something subjective, such as this topic, you veer us off into the realm of absurdity. If saying homosexuality is a sin is cruelty, saying anything that some one feels is painful or hurtful is cruelty. If that's the case, then cruelty is subject to the whims of emotions and feels.

What's additionally non-sensical is that idea that saying homosexuality is sinful is cruelty because is offers a sweeping proscription "forced celibacy" of a group of people (homosexuals). The actual generalization here is speaking unilaterally for homosexuals. You deny free will of individual persons when you say they will always act a certain way and cannot change. This is a Category mistake. Each person is an individual person.

Personally, as a priest, I treat everyone as an individual person. This is how the Church treats them as well. The Truth of Christ does not change. If someone who is gay comes to me and asks for guidance, I don't rebuke them, or throw them out of the Church. I work with them. Just like I do with everyone. Ultimately, the vision is the same: being conformed to Christ. One cannot be conformed to Christ if they have placed a sin as a barrier to that transformation.

The claim is that its cruel to say homosexuality is a sin because gay people can't change? If you can't change, you can't be a Christian. The world must be put off for you to be in Christ.

But what you mean is that homosexuals cannot change their desire to have sex with people of the same gender. Whether or not its advisable or whether or not a individual person is capable of this, the idea that they can't control or purify their desires is erroneous. Disordered passions must be purified to enter into the kingdom. Homosexual desires, desires of adultery, fornication, greed, etc. etc.

But it's cruel to force homosexuals to be celibate.
No one is forcing anyone to be celibate. They could get married an have children. Marriage is a vocation. Better to marry than burn with lust. Embracing a vocation means doing the hard work of salvation and suffering. If we want to enter the kingdom, we can only do that by the Cross. It's possible for a homosexual to get married and have children and be happy and not go back to the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. Some gay people have done that. It really does happen and it is possible. It requires the same work as anyone struggling against a specific sin/passion in their spiritual life. Honesty, commitment, struggle, Confession, repentance.

Homosexuality is a sin. Our Lord offers us the remedy to this sin and all sins; Grace, Mercy, Love, and Peace. This is only found for us all in Him and living His teaching.

"There are two Ways, one of Life and one of Death, and there is a great difference between the two Ways...Thou shalt not forsake the commandments of the Lord, but thou shalt keep what thou didst receive, "Adding nothing to it and taking nothing away."In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions, and thou shalt not betake thyself to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life."   


Offline hecma925

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #365 on: June 22, 2018, 10:13:19 AM »
I'm not suggesting that - I'm suggesting that God calls us to suffer and do difficult things, and we become better people because of it. Saint Paul was essentially a murderer, and Saint Peter was a fisherman - yet both were called by God and traveled around the known world and spread the Gospel, and both of whom were persecuted, suffered, and were murdered - yet they are both examples of a life to model after.

Once again,
"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Why do priests where Crosses again?

God asks difficult things of individuals (and all the individuals you've named also had their sexual struggles in a monastic context). I don't see Him handing down sweeping mandates to all people of a particular grouping no matter what.

Christ only told all humanity to be perfect. 
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #366 on: June 22, 2018, 01:05:07 PM »
Is it fair for heterosexuals to fix the bathroom problem and to have to get changed in front of someone sexually attracted to them?

You mean it has never crossed your mind that some of the other men changing with you in your all-male bathroom might already be sexually attracted to you?

or that a good number of homosexual men changing with you might find not find you sexually attractive or might even find you repulsive.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #367 on: June 22, 2018, 01:13:38 PM »
Personally, as a priest, I treat everyone as an individual person.

Just out of curiosity, isn't there a forum rule that requires clergy to identify themselves as such in their profile?

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #368 on: June 22, 2018, 01:28:28 PM »
Is it fair for heterosexuals to fix the bathroom problem and to have to get changed in front of someone sexually attracted to them?

You mean it has never crossed your mind that some of the other men changing with you in your all-male bathroom might already be sexually attracted to you?

or that a good number of homosexual men changing with you might find not find you sexually attractive or might even find you repulsive.

Well, my train of thought was that in any possible bathroom configuration, there will be people who are sexually attracted to other users of the same, but this is a valid point to keep in mind as well.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #369 on: June 22, 2018, 04:51:03 PM »
Better hide your goods in WC's

Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #370 on: June 22, 2018, 05:59:17 PM »
Personally, as a priest, I treat everyone as an individual person.

Just out of curiosity, isn't there a forum rule that requires clergy to identify themselves as such in their profile?

I've not really been a frequent poster here, so I'm not familiar with the rules (280 posts over 10 years, I joined back in 2008).
I haven't really posted since I was ordained, but to answer, I don't think that's the case. But, I have asked, just today, to have my profile name changed to reflect me being a priest.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #371 on: June 22, 2018, 07:28:54 PM »
In the Garden:
Eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God wants you to. He has forbade you because He doesn't want you to be like Him. Just second guess His Word.

Other Historical revisions:
Fornication isn't a sin. People can't help having sex, men and women have a burning desire, its cruel to force them to live without sex. The Church should change its teaching. Sex is natural.

A fetus isn't a baby. Abortion isn't a sin. Its cruel to force a woman to have stay pregnant and give birth when she doesn't want too. Her body, her choice. The Church should change its teaching.

Love is Love. Two homosexuals are the same as two heterosexuals. Homosexual sex is not a sin and homosexuality isn't sinful. People don't have a choice. Its cruel to say its a sin. The Church should change its teaching.


The argument that condemning homosexual acts as sin is cruel is just another demonic lie from the deceiver. Literally every one uses that argument to justify accepting sin and try and force the Church to change its teaching.

"If you say homosexuality is sinful people will kill themselves, its cruel"
A disgusting argument that is. I'm being held hostage and forced to act and believe a certain way or people will kill themselves. Demonic deception and mental illness.
I'm not cruel or attempting to be cruel, I do care about everyone. To arbitrarily accuse me (or anyone of being cruel) is the actual cruelty. It also essentially makes cruelty subjective, which its not. Its not cruelty to keep the teaching of Christ.

When you make something subjective, such as this topic, you veer us off into the realm of absurdity. If saying homosexuality is a sin is cruelty, saying anything that some one feels is painful or hurtful is cruelty. If that's the case, then cruelty is subject to the whims of emotions and feels.

What's additionally non-sensical is that idea that saying homosexuality is sinful is cruelty because is offers a sweeping proscription "forced celibacy" of a group of people (homosexuals). The actual generalization here is speaking unilaterally for homosexuals. You deny free will of individual persons when you say they will always act a certain way and cannot change. This is a Category mistake. Each person is an individual person.

Personally, as a priest, I treat everyone as an individual person. This is how the Church treats them as well. The Truth of Christ does not change. If someone who is gay comes to me and asks for guidance, I don't rebuke them, or throw them out of the Church. I work with them. Just like I do with everyone. Ultimately, the vision is the same: being conformed to Christ. One cannot be conformed to Christ if they have placed a sin as a barrier to that transformation.

The claim is that its cruel to say homosexuality is a sin because gay people can't change? If you can't change, you can't be a Christian. The world must be put off for you to be in Christ.

But what you mean is that homosexuals cannot change their desire to have sex with people of the same gender. Whether or not its advisable or whether or not a individual person is capable of this, the idea that they can't control or purify their desires is erroneous. Disordered passions must be purified to enter into the kingdom. Homosexual desires, desires of adultery, fornication, greed, etc. etc.

But it's cruel to force homosexuals to be celibate.
No one is forcing anyone to be celibate. They could get married an have children. Marriage is a vocation. Better to marry than burn with lust. Embracing a vocation means doing the hard work of salvation and suffering. If we want to enter the kingdom, we can only do that by the Cross. It's possible for a homosexual to get married and have children and be happy and not go back to the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. Some gay people have done that. It really does happen and it is possible. It requires the same work as anyone struggling against a specific sin/passion in their spiritual life. Honesty, commitment, struggle, Confession, repentance.

Homosexuality is a sin. Our Lord offers us the remedy to this sin and all sins; Grace, Mercy, Love, and Peace. This is only found for us all in Him and living His teaching.

"There are two Ways, one of Life and one of Death, and there is a great difference between the two Ways...Thou shalt not forsake the commandments of the Lord, but thou shalt keep what thou didst receive, "Adding nothing to it and taking nothing away."In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions, and thou shalt not betake thyself to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life."

I'm tired of answering rambles. There's no good evidence that homosexuality can be cured, people have been trying everything from shock treatment to counseling to "just get married to the opposite sex and hope it sticks" for decades.

That in itself doesn't mean that homosexuals should not be forced to be celibate, but it does weigh against the idea.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #372 on: June 22, 2018, 07:33:03 PM »
I'm not suggesting that - I'm suggesting that God calls us to suffer and do difficult things, and we become better people because of it. Saint Paul was essentially a murderer, and Saint Peter was a fisherman - yet both were called by God and traveled around the known world and spread the Gospel, and both of whom were persecuted, suffered, and were murdered - yet they are both examples of a life to model after.

Once again,
"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Why do priests where Crosses again?

God asks difficult things of individuals (and all the individuals you've named also had their sexual struggles in a monastic context). I don't see Him handing down sweeping mandates to all people of a particular grouping no matter what.

Christ only told all humanity to be perfect.

And that call to perfection manifests differently for different individuals. Celibacy is a cross that not all are called to bare, and that's something that the individual (gay or straight) needs to discern for themselves. Trying to generalize it to an entire class of people doesn't make any sense.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:33:23 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #373 on: June 22, 2018, 07:42:24 PM »
I'm not suggesting that - I'm suggesting that God calls us to suffer and do difficult things, and we become better people because of it. Saint Paul was essentially a murderer, and Saint Peter was a fisherman - yet both were called by God and traveled around the known world and spread the Gospel, and both of whom were persecuted, suffered, and were murdered - yet they are both examples of a life to model after.

Once again,
"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Why do priests where Crosses again?

God asks difficult things of individuals (and all the individuals you've named also had their sexual struggles in a monastic context). I don't see Him handing down sweeping mandates to all people of a particular grouping no matter what.

Christ only told all humanity to be perfect.

And that call to perfection manifests differently for different individuals. Celibacy is a cross that not all are called to bare, and that's something that the individual (gay or straight) needs to discern for themselves. Trying to generalize it to an entire class of people doesn't make any sense.

is it not worth trying? We are suppose to pick up our crosses, and follow him, not just say "hey Christ, can we have Gay Marriage, because that couple across the street are "nice", celibacy is too rough on them" what about Masturbation, Pornographers, etc.  allow them communion if they don't confess repent, and do their penance.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:44:15 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #374 on: June 22, 2018, 07:57:11 PM »
I'm not suggesting that - I'm suggesting that God calls us to suffer and do difficult things, and we become better people because of it. Saint Paul was essentially a murderer, and Saint Peter was a fisherman - yet both were called by God and traveled around the known world and spread the Gospel, and both of whom were persecuted, suffered, and were murdered - yet they are both examples of a life to model after.

Once again,
"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Why do priests where Crosses again?

God asks difficult things of individuals (and all the individuals you've named also had their sexual struggles in a monastic context). I don't see Him handing down sweeping mandates to all people of a particular grouping no matter what.

Christ only told all humanity to be perfect.

And that call to perfection manifests differently for different individuals. Celibacy is a cross that not all are called to bare, and that's something that the individual (gay or straight) needs to discern for themselves. Trying to generalize it to an entire class of people doesn't make any sense.

is it not worth trying? We are suppose to pick up our crosses, and follow him, not just say "hey Christ, can we have Gay Marriage, because that couple across the street are "nice", celibacy is too rough on them"

Like I said, it's something for every individual to prayerfully figure out on their own. But the current practice is to essentially force it on all gay people who want to be Christian, regardless of their individual circumstances.

Btw, why is nice in scare quotes?

what about Masturbation, Pornographers, etc.  allow them communion if they don't confess repent, and do their penance.

The crucial mitigating factor there is that straight people who masturbate, watch porn, etc. still have a normal path for their sexuality (theoretically) open to them.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #375 on: June 22, 2018, 10:17:17 PM »
But why label people as gay? If they want a little butty every once in a while. Or the other way around.
Its not like a black person.  They can't take there color away. Some gay people I know also like girls. Bisexual is more prominent these days.
So as la la la says. The act is the determining factor.  There is no such thing as gay genes.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #376 on: June 22, 2018, 11:06:50 PM »
But why label people as gay? If they want a little butty every once in a while. Or the other way around.
Its not like a black person.  They can't take there color away. Some gay people I know also like girls. Bisexual is more prominent these days.
So as la la la says. The act is the determining factor.  There is no such thing as gay genes.

I didn't say there was a gay gene. It's likely a combination of several factors, but it's not something that it seems like we can forcibly change. So in that sense, yes it is a bit like skin color.

Some people are truly bisexual. Some are but don't like the label for whatever reason (language can be inexact). Some are gay or straight for 90% of their lives and attracted to someone else only once or twice ever (does it really make sense to call them bisexual in that case?). But again, complexity does not mean it can be switched on and off like a light.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:08:40 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #377 on: June 23, 2018, 12:08:22 AM »
What I do not understand is that the Church is not forcing anything at least in America. Secular law has determined inherent rights to marriage etc to be implicit within it’s code. The Church has the right to reject this within itself only; no one is forced to be in the church. Secular law determined that abortion was an implicit right within it. Again, the Church rejects this within itself but cannot enforce anything outside of it.

The Church preaches a message that includes a lifestyle that rejects abortion and homosexuality. Thankfully we are not under the code of Justinian but the Church cannot make accommodations to receive the Eucharist on matters that would undermine what it stands for.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #378 on: June 23, 2018, 12:17:43 AM »
Its not like a black person.  They can't take there color away.
Due to how “blackness” has been defined in U.S. history, a “black” person can have a range of skin colors, from very light (practically indistinguishable from “white”) to very dark. Thus, a person can be socially viewed as “black” in one context, and that same person can also be seen as a “white” in another context. This socially defined process of racial transformation is called ”passing for white”. Over a couple of generations, a “black” family can transform into a “white” family.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #379 on: June 23, 2018, 12:24:32 AM »
Personally, as a priest, I treat everyone as an individual person.

Just out of curiosity, isn't there a forum rule that requires clergy to identify themselves as such in their profile?

I've not really been a frequent poster here, so I'm not familiar with the rules (280 posts over 10 years, I joined back in 2008).
I haven't really posted since I was ordained, but to answer, I don't think that's the case. But, I have asked, just today, to have my profile name changed to reflect me being a priest.

Thanks for doing that. Everyone who posts on this board seems to have very strong opinions set in stone about almost every topic. It's good to know who can back their thoughts up with the experience of serving as a parish priest. Of course I'm not saying that priests are right about everything, but priests--at least the ones in my parish--do tend to know Church teachings and how to apply them in daily life better than the rest of us.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #380 on: June 23, 2018, 02:57:58 AM »
Due to how “blackness” has been defined in U.S. history, a “black” person can have a range of skin colors, from very light (practically indistinguishable from “white”) to very dark. Thus, a person can be socially viewed as “black” in one context, and that same person can also be seen as a “white” in another context. This socially defined process of racial transformation is called ”passing for white”. Over a couple of generations, a “black” family can transform into a “white” family.
The philosopher Joaquim Nabuco considered his friend, the mulatto writer Machado de Assis (rich, famous and erudite) to be not only white, but "Greekish", despite his "strange blood", and Machado's death certificate even listed him as white. Some of his pictures were literally whitewashed to make him look less black, since everyone considered him to be white (as, you know, only white people could write, so if Machado was a great writer, he was definitely white).

« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 03:00:25 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #381 on: June 23, 2018, 04:05:53 AM »
The philosopher Joaquim Nabuco considered his friend, the mulatto writer Machado de Assis (rich, famous and erudite) to be not only white, but "Greekish", despite his "strange blood", and Machado's death certificate even listed him as white. Some of his pictures were literally whitewashed to make him look less black, since everyone considered him to be white (as, you know, only white people could write, so if Machado was a great writer, he was definitely white).

In the context of this thread, it's interesting to note how many literary critics until recently denied American poet Walt Whitman's homosexuality, though it is fairly clear in his poetry and crystal clear in his diary writing. Perhaps it wasn't so much that blacks/homosexuals can't write as that whites/heterosexuals couldn't respect a gifted writer unlike themselves.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #382 on: June 23, 2018, 06:42:41 AM »
But why label people as gay? If they want a little butty every once in a while. Or the other way around.
Its not like a black person.  They can't take there color away. Some gay people I know also like girls. Bisexual is more prominent these days.
So as la la la says. The act is the determining factor.  There is no such thing as gay genes.

I didn't say there was a gay gene. It's likely a combination of several factors, but it's not something that it seems like we can forcibly change. So in that sense, yes it is a bit like skin color.

Some people are truly bisexual. Some are but don't like the label for whatever reason (language can be inexact). Some are gay or straight for 90% of their lives and attracted to someone else only once or twice ever (does it really make sense to call them bisexual in that case?). But again, complexity does not mean it can be switched on and off like a light.
One can argue that it's a mental decision to be gay. Just like when someone chooses profession and fits into the part of there profession.  Like a dr. for instance. Surrounding ones self in the practice of a particular activity will incorporate that activity into a person's character.
Or like a person who steals from a young age and incorporates the activity into there personally.  Labelled as a thief forever unless they stop the negative action.
All character traits are is learnt behavior. One takes a behavior they like and makes it there own.  Whether its positive or negative is judged by an authority or individuals. All people are is a communion or a club with sets of rules. Depending on the club one belongs too determines who a person is to an extent. 


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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #383 on: June 23, 2018, 06:51:39 AM »
Its not like a black person.  They can't take there color away.
Due to how “blackness” has been defined in U.S. history, a “black” person can have a range of skin colors, from very light (practically indistinguishable from “white”) to very dark. Thus, a person can be socially viewed as “black” in one context, and that same person can also be seen as a “white” in another context. This socially defined process of racial transformation is called ”passing for white”. Over a couple of generations, a “black” family can transform into a “white” family.
Im sure this happened more than once. South America has a very diverse population where European whites have interacted with blacks and indigenous Americans over many generations.


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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #384 on: June 23, 2018, 02:53:17 PM »
What I do not understand is that the Church is not forcing anything at least in America. Secular law has determined inherent rights to marriage etc to be implicit within it’s code. The Church has the right to reject this within itself only; no one is forced to be in the church. Secular law determined that abortion was an implicit right within it. Again, the Church rejects this within itself but cannot enforce anything outside of it.

The Church preaches a message that includes a lifestyle that rejects abortion and homosexuality. Thankfully we are not under the code of Justinian but the Church cannot make accommodations to receive the Eucharist on matters that would undermine what it stands for.
This makes sense if I take out the first "not" (I have a hard time figuring out  double negatives).
In the last paragraph, I would distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual acts in the same way as heterosexuality and heterosexual acts. I personally feel that even in marriage, if there is no love and you are not "one" with your spouse, then having sex is wrong. I have been chaste for ~20 years because of this.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #385 on: June 23, 2018, 03:49:27 PM »
Is it hateful and cruel to ask people not to sin?

Judging by the feedback here, yes. It seems some people want traditional teachings changed, and all.of society to go against human nature. All for the purpose of allowing sinful people who by most accounts arent religious at all to have no restraints.

Like ive said before, where does it stop? We've already seen Gay marriage being made law, now its transgender rights, and demands to have our religious freedoms taken away if it offends someone with no religious morals. Where does it stop?

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #386 on: June 23, 2018, 04:29:59 PM »
What I do not understand is that the Church is not forcing anything at least in America. Secular law has determined inherent rights to marriage etc to be implicit within it’s code. The Church has the right to reject this within itself only; no one is forced to be in the church. Secular law determined that abortion was an implicit right within it. Again, the Church rejects this within itself but cannot enforce anything outside of it.

The Church preaches a message that includes a lifestyle that rejects abortion and homosexuality. Thankfully we are not under the code of Justinian but the Church cannot make accommodations to receive the Eucharist on matters that would undermine what it stands for.

By "force," I mean "threaten with Hell if they don't deny their homosexuality." It's spiritual coercion, if you will.

Though given the rising tide of world reactionarism, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody out there does want to bring back the Code of Justinian. Then again, part of the reason that we can't have peaceful conversations anymore is that both sides assume the other is on the verge of taking over and killing them, so who knows?
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #387 on: June 23, 2018, 04:32:28 PM »
But why label people as gay? If they want a little butty every once in a while. Or the other way around.
Its not like a black person.  They can't take there color away. Some gay people I know also like girls. Bisexual is more prominent these days.
So as la la la says. The act is the determining factor.  There is no such thing as gay genes.

I didn't say there was a gay gene. It's likely a combination of several factors, but it's not something that it seems like we can forcibly change. So in that sense, yes it is a bit like skin color.

Some people are truly bisexual. Some are but don't like the label for whatever reason (language can be inexact). Some are gay or straight for 90% of their lives and attracted to someone else only once or twice ever (does it really make sense to call them bisexual in that case?). But again, complexity does not mean it can be switched on and off like a light.
One can argue that it's a mental decision to be gay. Just like when someone chooses profession and fits into the part of there profession.  Like a dr. for instance. Surrounding ones self in the practice of a particular activity will incorporate that activity into a person's character.
Or like a person who steals from a young age and incorporates the activity into there personally.  Labelled as a thief forever unless they stop the negative action.
All character traits are is learnt behavior. One takes a behavior they like and makes it there own.  Whether its positive or negative is judged by an authority or individuals. All people are is a communion or a club with sets of rules. Depending on the club one belongs too determines who a person is to an extent.

If it's a decision in any sense, then it's one that's made at a very early age in conjunction with powerful environmental and/or genetic influences. It doesn't necessarily follow though, that it's a river that can just be "uncrossed." Things are a little more complex than that.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 04:32:53 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #388 on: June 23, 2018, 04:39:31 PM »
One may make a decision to have sex, but one doesn't get to choose what orientation one is.
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Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #389 on: June 23, 2018, 04:57:10 PM »
Quote
I'm tired of answering rambles.

Then don't.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 04:57:20 PM by LakaYaRabb »

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #390 on: June 23, 2018, 05:10:52 PM »
What I do not understand is that the Church is not forcing anything at least in America. Secular law has determined inherent rights to marriage etc to be implicit within it’s code. The Church has the right to reject this within itself only; no one is forced to be in the church. Secular law determined that abortion was an implicit right within it. Again, the Church rejects this within itself but cannot enforce anything outside of it.

The Church preaches a message that includes a lifestyle that rejects abortion and homosexuality. Thankfully we are not under the code of Justinian but the Church cannot make accommodations to receive the Eucharist on matters that would undermine what it stands for.

By "force," I mean "threaten with Hell if they don't deny their homosexuality." It's spiritual coercion, if you will.

Though given the rising tide of world reactionarism, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody out there does want to bring back the Code of Justinian. Then again, part of the reason that we can't have peaceful conversations anymore is that both sides assume the other is on the verge of taking over and killing them, so who knows?

After donating some significant headspace to thinking about it, I actually agree with you Volute. I think we need to address the reality of people who are in a long lasting committed relationship based on love with only one another. They shouldn't be forced or coerced into celibacy, especially when personal experience tells them they can't be celibate. They have now chosen to be in a relationship with just one person of the same-sex and are now committed to a sexual relationship with just that one person. You are also right, I think, that this arrangement is now, not only legal, widely accepted as being just the same as heterosexual marriage.

The Church does need to address this. Some of these same-sex couples are already professing Orthodox Christians and desire to live as such IN the Church. They don't want to be seen as second class citizens. When we see it this way, we are starting at the point of addressing their needs and desires. We are starting at the point that they come to us.

Its the wrong point to start at. Why do they want to be Orthodox Christian? Because they believe its the True Faith? Well, the True Faith can't be wrong and the True Faith is that homosexuality is a sin. There is no possibility to bless same-sex "marriage" because that arrangement isn't marriage. Why seek to be a member of a Church that teaches your lifestyle choice is a sin?

Further, no one is forcing them to be Orthodox. It's not the State Religion. They are free to live as the please in this country and pretty much globally. No one forced them to be celibate.

If a homosexual person wants to be Orthodox, they must renounce their all their delusions and sins, just as all of us must do. Gay, straight, rich, poor, arrogant, fornicators, gluttons, adluterers etc. etc. All men must renounce sin. It's the ONLY way into the Kingdom.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #391 on: June 23, 2018, 07:15:12 PM »
I felt like I needed to stand up in this thread for the gay people I know. But it's become clear to me that I'm just repeating myself uselessly, and I'm tired of it. I'll give you guys the last word since you're going to take it anyhow.

I guess we'll find out which of us is right in the sweet by and by. Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I can't in good conscience recommend Orthodoxy to a gay person. And that's... really depressing.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 07:18:06 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #392 on: June 23, 2018, 08:20:22 PM »
I felt like I needed to stand up in this thread for the gay people I know. But it's become clear to me that I'm just repeating myself uselessly, and I'm tired of it. I'll give you guys the last word since you're going to take it anyhow.

I guess we'll find out which of us is right in the sweet by and by. Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I can't in good conscience recommend Orthodoxy to a gay person. And that's... really depressing.

Exactly. Well said.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #393 on: June 23, 2018, 09:45:48 PM »
What I do not understand is that the Church is not forcing anything at least in America. Secular law has determined inherent rights to marriage etc to be implicit within it’s code. The Church has the right to reject this within itself only; no one is forced to be in the church. Secular law determined that abortion was an implicit right within it. Again, the Church rejects this within itself but cannot enforce anything outside of it.

The Church preaches a message that includes a lifestyle that rejects abortion and homosexuality. Thankfully we are not under the code of Justinian but the Church cannot make accommodations to receive the Eucharist on matters that would undermine what it stands for.

By "force," I mean "threaten with Hell if they don't deny their homosexuality." It's spiritual coercion, if you will.

Though given the rising tide of world reactionarism, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody out there does want to bring back the Code of Justinian. Then again, part of the reason that we can't have peaceful conversations anymore is that both sides assume the other is on the verge of taking over and killing them, so who knows?

After donating some significant headspace to thinking about it, I actually agree with you Volute. I think we need to address the reality of people who are in a long lasting committed relationship based on love with only one another.


If the Orthodox Church did that, whichever local church dared to do it would be canonically isolated.  Of course, canonical isolation seems to be of reduced concern for the EP at this point given the situation in the Ukraine; it is interesting and terrible to ponder what would have a more schismatogenic effect on the Church, this, or the UOC-KP becoming part of the EP, but the prospect of either is chilling, and represents the end of the current period of relative pan Orthodox unity. 

Whichever church did what you proposed would lose its Catholicity and Orthodoxy; it would become a heterodox confession along the lines of the Rennovationist Church of the Soviet Union.  Moscow, Serbia, Antioch, and Georgia, at a minimum, would shun it, and that represents the greater portion of Orthodox Christians, although I also expect the second largest EO church (Romania), Bulgaria, Cyprus, and certainly all four OO churches, would have nothing to do with such a confession. 

Quote


They shouldn't be forced or coerced into celibacy, especially when personal experience tells them they can't be celibate.


“If your right hand causes you to sin, it is better to cut it off...”  Of course, our Lord gave us the sacrament of Reconciliation in order to provide less drastic means of healing and restoring our relationship with our Lord.

However, an unrepentant sinner cannot partake of the Eucharist, and Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition unambiguously define sexual activity between multiple persons as sinful.   Indeed, the explicit condemnation of same-sex activity by St. Paul extends beyond the condemnation of other forms of activity; from St. Paul and the Mosaic Legislation alone we can preclude this activity, and not with recourse to sex outside of marriage; we can rather definitively preclude homosexual activity inside or outside of marriage. 

Yet you did not even set the bar that high, your standard was rather a “committed monogamous relationship.”  This is of course at enormous odds with Scripture and Holy Tradition; within Scripture we see in ancient times divinely sanctioned polygamy, which we then see has been clearly rejected in, for example, the Epistle of St. Paul to Timothy, and since that time, the discipline of the early church was to receive people in polygamous marriages contracted outside of the church, but now, I expect that we would decline even this.   The Roman Church indeed adopted the strictest possible protections to ensure monogamy, but the primary concern was the sanctity of marriage, which has always been between one man and one woman.

Indeed, the abuse of the ritual for homosexual reasons likely caused the Church to largely abandon the ancient rite of adelphopoesis, which I think is a great tragedy, as the ability of the Church to bless platonic relationships between effective siblings allowed us to construct and expand family units via four vectors (matrimony, parentage, godparentage, and adelphopoesis), in addition to secondary vectors such as step-parentage).  These allowed for the preservation of a nuturing and protective environment for children in the event of bereavement, an environment which the poisonous form of the homosexual marriage is, owing to the inherent sinfulness of all homosexuality, fundamentally incapable of providing, it being an outrage against both explicit Divine and Natural Law, and a plague upon society.

It should also be noted that your argument could, without any syntactic alteration, be used to justify the admission to the Eucharist of polyamorous homosexuals or the reinstitution of polygamy.  Indeed, a virtually identical syntax is employed by “Jack Mormons” in apologetics defending plural marriage against the formal LDS hierarchy which abolished it under government pressure. 

Quote
They have now chosen to be in a relationship with just one person of the same-sex and are now committed to a sexual relationship with just that one person. You are also right, I think, that this arrangement is now, not only legal, widely accepted as being just the same as heterosexual marriage.



Not by the Church, and never by the Church properly defined.

Quote

The Church does need to address this. Some of these same-sex couples are already professing Orthodox Christians and desire to live as such IN the Church.


They are not professing Orthodox Christians; if they were they would recognize the shamefulness of their conduct and hasten to repent before the priest.  Rather, they have self-excommunicated.   To the extent they think they are Orthodox and think they can do this also, they are, as you yourself said earlier, in prelest.

Quote

They don't want to be seen as second class citizens. When we see it this way, we are starting at the point of addressing their needs and desires. We are starting at the point that they come to us.

Its the wrong point to start at. Why do they want to be Orthodox Christian? Because they believe its the True Faith? Well, the True Faith can't be wrong and the True Faith is that homosexuality is a sin. There is no possibility to bless same-sex "marriage" because that arrangement isn't marriage. Why seek to be a member of a Church that teaches your lifestyle choice is a sin?

Further, no one is forcing them to be Orthodox. It's not the State Religion. They are free to live as the please in this country and pretty much globally. No one forced them to be celibate.

If a homosexual person wants to be Orthodox, they must renounce their all their delusions and sins, just as all of us must do. Gay, straight, rich, poor, arrogant, fornicators, gluttons, adluterers etc. etc. All men must renounce sin. It's the ONLY way into the Kingdom.

This is entirely correct.  Your posts are confusing me; you write a preface which appears to be an endorsement of the error we are rejecting, and then contradict yourself by basically stating the correct Orthodox position.  The question I have, in order that I may understand your post logically, is, which half do you agree with?  The first part of your post, where you apparently capitulate to what we might call the “neo-rennovationists” of our time, or the second part, in which you then refute the first with the Orthodox position? 

It’s not quite rhetorically sound in my view to concede everything to your opponent in the first half of a statement and then refute yourself in the second, as it could be misinterpreted as a strawman, and if it is not a strawman (and I don’t think it is), it makes your post seem self-contradictory and incoherent.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #394 on: June 23, 2018, 09:52:11 PM »
I felt like I needed to stand up in this thread for the gay people I know. But it's become clear to me that I'm just repeating myself uselessly, and I'm tired of it. I'll give you guys the last word since you're going to take it anyhow.

I guess we'll find out which of us is right in the sweet by and by. Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I can't in good conscience recommend Orthodoxy to a gay person. And that's... really depressing.

What depresses me is that nowhere in the above do we see any attempt to reconcile this, in my opinion, fundamentally misguided, position, with sacred scripture and tradition.  What is more, the numerous statements by myself and others made in good faith, that outline how the Orthodox Church graciously receives sinners of all varieties, and has no spite for any of them, but rather love and empathy, something I think you can’t say about fundamentalist Protestant churches in the Calvinist and Baptist substrate, have been persistantly ignored or trod upon.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #395 on: June 23, 2018, 10:04:24 PM »
Quote
This is entirely correct.  Your posts are confusing me; you write a preface which appears to be an endorsement of the error we are rejecting, and then contradict yourself by basically stating the correct Orthodox position.  The question I have, in order that I may understand your post logically, is, which half do you agree with?  The first part of your post, where you apparently capitulate to what we might call the “neo-rennovationists” of our time, or the second part, in which you then refute the first with the Orthodox position? 

It’s not quite rhetorically sound in my view to concede everything to your opponent in the first half of a statement and then refute yourself in the second, as it could be misinterpreted as a strawman, and if it is not a strawman (and I don’t think it is), it makes your post seem self-contradictory and incoherent.

I understand how that could be confusing. That's not my intent. I want to clarify for sure. As an Orthodox Priest (and having been blessed by being guided by the most excellent Fr. Alexander Atty, of blessed memory, who was my confessor) I uphold the teachings of our Church. To the point: the second part expresses my belief, which will always (by my effort) conform to the One True Faith, found only in the Holy Orthodox Church.


The only point of my first paragraph what to establish word for word exactly what volute, biro, and many others claim is the perspective of those who want to change the Church and Her teachings. I wanted to clearly restate what they said, then offer a simple refutation in the same post. Sorry for any confusion!

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #396 on: June 23, 2018, 10:05:27 PM »
Quote
This is entirely correct.  Your posts are confusing me; you write a preface which appears to be an endorsement of the error we are rejecting, and then contradict yourself by basically stating the correct Orthodox position.  The question I have, in order that I may understand your post logically, is, which half do you agree with?  The first part of your post, where you apparently capitulate to what we might call the “neo-rennovationists” of our time, or the second part, in which you then refute the first with the Orthodox position? 

It’s not quite rhetorically sound in my view to concede everything to your opponent in the first half of a statement and then refute yourself in the second, as it could be misinterpreted as a strawman, and if it is not a strawman (and I don’t think it is), it makes your post seem self-contradictory and incoherent.

I understand how that could be confusing. That's not my intent. I want to clarify for sure. As an Orthodox Priest (and having been blessed by being guided by the most excellent Fr. Alexander Atty, of blessed memory, who was my confessor) I uphold the teachings of our Church. To the point: the second part expresses my belief, which will always (by my effort) conform to the One True Faith, found only in the Holy Orthodox Church.


The only point of my first paragraph what to establish word for word exactly what volute, biro, and many others claim is the perspective of those who want to change the Church and Her teachings. I wanted to clearly restate what they said, then offer a simple refutation in the same post. Sorry for any confusion!

Ah, very good Father, I understand what you were trying to do. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #397 on: June 23, 2018, 10:08:20 PM »
Quote
What depresses me is that nowhere in the above do we see any attempt to reconcile this, in my opinion, fundamentally misguided, position, with sacred scripture and tradition.  What is more, the numerous statements by myself and others made in good faith, that outline how the Orthodox Church graciously receives sinners of all varieties, and has no spite for any of them, but rather love and empathy, something I think you can’t say about fundamentalist Protestant churches in the Calvinist and Baptist substrate, have been persistantly ignored or trod upon.

Very true and sad. Plus, there are plenty of people who struggle faithfully against homosexual passions. They have spoken and written about how cruel it is that people embraced that destructive, sinful lifestyle, how damaging it was that people encouraged it. They have expressed their gratitude for the Church and Christian teaching for bringing them out of that way of life. Those people are being ignored, invalidated, and insulted. Very sad!

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #398 on: June 23, 2018, 11:59:07 PM »
After donating some significant headspace to thinking about it, I actually agree with you Volute. I think we need to address the reality of people who are in a long lasting committed relationship based on love with only one another. They shouldn't be forced or coerced into celibacy, especially when personal experience tells them they can't be celibate. They have now chosen to be in a relationship with just one person of the same-sex and are now committed to a sexual relationship with just that one person. You are also right, I think, that this arrangement is now, not only legal, widely accepted as being just the same as heterosexual marriage.

The Church does need to address this. Some of these same-sex couples are already professing Orthodox Christians and desire to live as such IN the Church. They don't want to be seen as second class citizens. When we see it this way, we are starting at the point of addressing their needs and desires. We are starting at the point that they come to us.

Tongue only partly in cheek, I don't understand all the hysteria on the part of the Church. Given enough time, 'people who are in a long lasting committed relationship based on love with only one another' are going to stop having sex, if not from boredom at least due to age. I believe this is as true of homosexual couples as it is of heterosexuals. One might almost say it's part of God's plan.  :P

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #399 on: June 27, 2018, 11:34:29 AM »
What I do not understand is that the Church is not forcing anything at least in America. Secular law has determined inherent rights to marriage etc to be implicit within it’s code. The Church has the right to reject this within itself only; no one is forced to be in the church. Secular law determined that abortion was an implicit right within it. Again, the Church rejects this within itself but cannot enforce anything outside of it.

The Church preaches a message that includes a lifestyle that rejects abortion and homosexuality. Thankfully we are not under the code of Justinian but the Church cannot make accommodations to receive the Eucharist on matters that would undermine what it stands for.

By "force," I mean "threaten with Hell if they don't deny their homosexuality." It's spiritual coercion, if you will.

Though given the rising tide of world reactionarism, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody out there does want to bring back the Code of Justinian. Then again, part of the reason that we can't have peaceful conversations anymore is that both sides assume the other is on the verge of taking over and killing them, so who knows?

After donating some significant headspace to thinking about it, I actually agree with you Volute. I think we need to address the reality of people who are in a long lasting committed relationship based on love with only one another. They shouldn't be forced or coerced into celibacy, especially when personal experience tells them they can't be celibate. They have now chosen to be in a relationship with just one person of the same-sex and are now committed to a sexual relationship with just that one person. You are also right, I think, that this arrangement is now, not only legal, widely accepted as being just the same as heterosexual marriage.

The Church does need to address this. Some of these same-sex couples are already professing Orthodox Christians and desire to live as such IN the Church. They don't want to be seen as second class citizens. When we see it this way, we are starting at the point of addressing their needs and desires. We are starting at the point that they come to us.

Its the wrong point to start at. Why do they want to be Orthodox Christian? Because they believe its the True Faith? Well, the True Faith can't be wrong and the True Faith is that homosexuality is a sin. There is no possibility to bless same-sex "marriage" because that arrangement isn't marriage. Why seek to be a member of a Church that teaches your lifestyle choice is a sin?

Further, no one is forcing them to be Orthodox. It's not the State Religion. They are free to live as the please in this country and pretty much globally. No one forced them to be celibate.

If a homosexual person wants to be Orthodox, they must renounce their all their delusions and sins, just as all of us must do. Gay, straight, rich, poor, arrogant, fornicators, gluttons, adluterers etc. etc. All men must renounce sin. It's the ONLY way into the Kingdom.

Well said.
God bless

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #400 on: June 27, 2018, 03:52:34 PM »
One may make a decision to have sex, but one doesn't get to choose what orientation one is.

Are you absolutely sure about that?
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #401 on: June 27, 2018, 06:20:35 PM »
One may make a decision to have sex, but one doesn't get to choose what orientation one is.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Well you raise a good questiion.  We can say that we are absolutely sure what the
Orthodox Church says: that sexual orientation is a choice.

But no one has discussed what medical science says or if medical science has a definitive statement at present.  Is further research needed by medical science?

 I certainly admit that I do not know.

Offline Jakoblaj

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #402 on: June 27, 2018, 06:33:00 PM »
One may make a decision to have sex, but one doesn't get to choose what orientation one is.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

Well you raise a good questiion.  We can say that we are absolutely sure what the
Orthodox Church says: that sexual orientation is a choice.


Out of curiosity, could you point me to the sources that show that the Church says that sexual orientation is a choice? 

If I had known if was a choice I could have saved myself SO turmoil, humiliation, and pain. /s
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 06:36:15 PM by Jakoblaj »

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #403 on: June 27, 2018, 08:35:07 PM »
Thank you for porting out my mistake:
This what I meant to write: We can say that we are absolutely sure what the
Orthodox Church says: that sexual orientation is not a choice.

Unfortunately, for the past two hours I have been trying to modyfy my post without success.

Offline Jakoblaj

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #404 on: June 27, 2018, 08:55:50 PM »
Thank you for clarifying. :)