Author Topic: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage  (Read 11501 times)

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Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #315 on: June 21, 2018, 11:57:03 AM »
Volnutt, read this article, then come back here and tell me you have irrefutable proof that Christian moral beliefs cause gay people to commit suicide (warning, article is graphic and racy at times):
https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gay-loneliness/

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #316 on: June 21, 2018, 12:48:59 PM »
Why does the Church need that?

Because causing unnecessary suffering that often leads to suicide is not a good thing. If the most lurid fantasies of those that imagine that gay couples are all Satanist child molesters having insane coke orgies, I would agree that it should be prohibited. But it's not. It's just normal, consenting adults who just want to live their dang lives.

How is any of that the Church's fault?

It's not. But threatening them with Hell unless they pretend to not be gay (or try to beat themselves into becoming straight) doesn't help matters any.

This is the definition of prelest.
Sin is a choice. If you choose to live in sin and die unrepentant of sin, Christ Himself teaches that you condemn yourself because you willfully separate yourself from God.

Pretending that sin is not sin is demonic.

+100000000

This is essentially the crux of the matter.

I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."

The Church lacks nothing. See the Creed where we profess the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church is Catholic, it's complete, it has the fullness of Truth.

Within the teaching of the Truth is that homosexual acts are a sin. Marriage is only between one man and one woman. There cannot be gay "marriage", no matter what the world says.



Also very good.  That said, even those churches that we cannot describe as being Catholic due to schisms and heresy, for example, the SBC, which we cannot say with any confidence has Catholicity, are still anle to come to the same conclusion contained in our Holy Tradition, because they at least a similiar set of scriptures to us, and the books in what their church and ours would both call the Bible, in diverse places and in many voices, condemn sexual activity between members of the same gender.
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Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #317 on: June 21, 2018, 12:53:53 PM »
Thank God when others do see the Truth of Church teaching! It's tragic to see others abandon historic doctrinal positions, such as the Anglicans.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #318 on: June 21, 2018, 01:27:31 PM »
@LakaYaRabb, it was good of you to give the information (quoted below this paragraph) in response to my post (quoted below your reply), but you don't actually answer the question I asked in my earlier post. To make the question stand out more clearly, I've put it in bold type this time. I think this is a legitimate thing to ask as the answer may (or may not) separate the Orthodox Church from other churches' teachings about how God acts in the world.

I can see where you might see an inconsistency. It's not true that the early fathers allowed divorce, quite the opposite. It was condemned and remarriage was taught adultery by many. This follows the biblical exhortation. Also, this explains why the order of widows was prevalent then.

But did something then change? No. It's true that over time second and third 'marriage' was allowed if the sake of the salvation of the souls involved. However, the church only counts one marriage as being Sacramental, a second marriage is penitential and the service thereof indicates this. In fact, it is quite a different service. There is no service for third marriage, that arrangement is merely recognized.

Also keep in mind all the canons that dealt very rigorously with divorce, adultery etc.

Jesus is not a supporter of remarriage following divorce (Matt. 19:9, if I'm reading the passage correctly), yet if I understand Church history correctly the early Fathers allow divorce and remarriage and today 3 marriages are allowed by the Church. So I'd like to ask about something in your final paragraph above. You state that 'Church teaching is Divinely Revealed and doesn't change' and that 'never do we conform it to the spirit of the age'. Yet there seems to have been both a change in (Jesus') teaching and a conformation to the spirit of the age (the early Church Fathers lived in) with regard to divorce and remarriage. This leads me to ask when Divine Revelation ceased--with the teachings of the OT, with Jesus' and Paul's NT teachings, with the Tradition established by the early Church Fathers, or is Divine Revelation still ongoing today?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 01:31:09 PM by FinnJames »

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #319 on: June 21, 2018, 01:41:50 PM »
FinnJames, I didn't mean to avoid you question, sorry if I gave that impression. I was hoping to lay out the teaching of the Church on the issue in a way, that would by relation, answer your question.
I wouldn't agree that Divine Revekation ceased or changed at all. Concisely stated second and third marriage is not a reflection that Divne Revelation, or even Church teaching changed. In fact, I'm personally (and I say personally), not confident that second and third marriage is considered dogmatic teaching in any way. It's an expansive topic, I think to accurately address and hash out your question fully. I'll admit I haven't spent the necessary time to fully address it.

On the last part of your question, the response is a firm No! Divine Revelation is not ongoing. Christ revealed all, the Church lacks nothing.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 01:42:46 PM by LakaYaRabb »

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #320 on: June 21, 2018, 01:50:43 PM »
FinnJames, I didn't mean to avoid you question, sorry if I gave that impression. I was hoping to lay out the teaching of the Church on the issue in a way, that would by relation, answer your question.
I wouldn't agree that Divine Revekation ceased or changed at all. Concisely stated second and third marriage is not a reflection that Divne Revelation, or even Church teaching changed. In fact, I'm personally (and I say personally), not confident that second and third marriage is considered dogmatic teaching in any way. It's an expansive topic, I think to accurately address and hash out your question fully. I'll admit I haven't spent the necessary time to fully address it.

On the last part of your question, the response is a firm No! Divine Revelation is not ongoing. Christ revealed all, the Church lacks nothing.

Thank you for your reply. I've put phrases from your final paragraph in bold type since I think what you state there is key to any debates on women priests or same-sex marriage in the Church.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #321 on: June 21, 2018, 08:01:10 PM »
Volnutt, read this article, then come back here and tell me you have irrefutable proof that Christian moral beliefs cause gay people to commit suicide (warning, article is graphic and racy at times):
https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gay-loneliness/

Did I say that anti-gay theology was the only thing causing gay suicide? No. I just said that it's not helping any.

Gay culture has a lot of problems. Black culture has a lot of problems. Native American culture has a lot of problems. There are solutions to all of them, even if currently difficult to find, that don't involve eradication (whether via genocide or via driving them back into the closet).

That said, the article itself hints that a lot of these problems are a hangover from the years in which gay people were far more persecuted than they still are (from the persistent PTSD-like effects of having been in the closet to straight-mirroring behavioral norms that cause divides between gay men based on levels of "butch"-ness). Let's at least wait til it's been a couple of generations since Obergefell before we declare gay culture a lost cause forever, please.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #322 on: June 21, 2018, 08:14:09 PM »
What makes gay culture, in comparison with black culture, beneficial to its members?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #323 on: June 21, 2018, 08:14:33 PM »
Laka knows full well that it's pretty much only extremist Christians and Muslims who still preach that gay life is totally unacceptable.

He also knows that gay people have a much higher suicide rate than the general population, especially in the U.S., which is mostly Christian.

He's just like Lady Macbeth. Can't wash the blood off his hands.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #324 on: June 21, 2018, 08:16:57 PM »
What makes gay culture, in comparison with black culture, beneficial to its members?

You are a funny little man.

What makes straight culture in any way beneficial?

45,000 people take their lives in the United States every year.

There are also lots of divorces and custody disputes in the U.S.

Who says American heterosexuals are happy?

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #325 on: June 21, 2018, 08:19:00 PM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."

The Church lacks nothing. See the Creed where we profess the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church is Catholic, it's complete, it has the fullness of Truth.

Within the teaching of the Truth is that homosexual acts are a sin. Marriage is only between one man and one woman. There cannot be gay "marriage", no matter what the world says.

You mean like it was the teaching of the Church that Christians weren't allowed to join the army... until it wasn't? Or that it was ok to own slaves as long as you treated them well... until it wasn't?

Why does the Church need that?

Because causing unnecessary suffering that often leads to suicide is not a good thing. If the most lurid fantasies of those that imagine that gay couples are all Satanist child molesters having insane coke orgies, I would agree that it should be prohibited. But it's not. It's just normal, consenting adults who just want to live their dang lives.

How is any of that the Church's fault?

It's not. But threatening them with Hell unless they pretend to not be gay (or try to beat themselves into becoming straight) doesn't help matters any.

This is the definition of prelest.
Sin is a choice. If you choose to live in sin and die unrepentant of sin, Christ Himself teaches that you condemn yourself because you willfully separate yourself from God.

Pretending that sin is not sin is demonic. 

Sin is a choice. Being gay isn't. The Venn Diagram might actually overlap, it might be a single circle, but I'm not seeing good reasons to think it does or is. Only a lot of "just-so" stories in service of arbitrary cultural standards not dissimilar to the interracial marriage disapproval of bygone eras (the races are just too different to be compatible, it's a perversion!)

Writing "no homo" into the Creed like you seem determined to do is just as absurd as calling someone a heretic for not being a YEC.

"Prelest," on the internet, seems to be just a thought-terminating cliche used to shut down disagreements.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #326 on: June 21, 2018, 08:20:51 PM »
What makes gay culture, in comparison with black culture, beneficial to its members?

Is black culture beneficial to its members? Quite a few white conservatives would likely disagree ("Why can't they pull their pants up and quit listening to the gangsta rap?")

This is kind of a loaded question, is my point.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 08:23:22 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #327 on: June 21, 2018, 08:23:07 PM »
What makes gay culture, in comparison with black culture, beneficial to its members?

You are a funny little man.

What makes straight culture in any way beneficial?

45,000 people take their lives in the United States every year.

There are also lots of divorces and custody disputes in the U.S.

Who says American heterosexuals are happy?

I asked a question, desiring an answer from Volnutt.  He made a comparison of problems within the cultures of gays, blacks, and native Americans.

Suicide crosses a lot of social lines, so why do homosexuals kill themselves at a disproportionate level?  Problems, certainly.  How does that compare with blacks then?

I didn't ask if you were happy or not.

Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #328 on: June 21, 2018, 08:27:23 PM »
What makes gay culture, in comparison with black culture, beneficial to its members?

Is black culture beneficial to its members? Quite a few white conservatives would likely disagree ("Why can't they pull their pants up and quit listening to the gangsta rap?")

This is kind of a loaded question, is my point.

It would be interesting to find out how many black people kill themselves due to their culture in comparison with gays, with culture being the majority expression of a people.

This is kind of a loaded comparison, is my point.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #329 on: June 21, 2018, 08:30:34 PM »
What makes gay culture, in comparison with black culture, beneficial to its members?

You are a funny little man.

What makes straight culture in any way beneficial?

45,000 people take their lives in the United States every year.

There are also lots of divorces and custody disputes in the U.S.

Who says American heterosexuals are happy?

I asked a question, desiring an answer from Volnutt.  He made a comparison of problems within the cultures of gays, blacks, and native Americans.

Suicide crosses a lot of social lines, so why do homosexuals kill themselves at a disproportionate level?  Problems, certainly.  How does that compare with blacks then?

I didn't ask if you were happy or not.

Why do they kill themselves disproportionately? Why do Natives drink to excess and use drugs at disproportionate levels?

Maybe because their lives often still suck and much of the world still hates them, despite things getting better (said improvements still teetering on the edge of a knife)?
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #330 on: June 21, 2018, 08:38:13 PM »
What makes gay culture, in comparison with black culture, beneficial to its members?

Is black culture beneficial to its members? Quite a few white conservatives would likely disagree ("Why can't they pull their pants up and quit listening to the gangsta rap?")

This is kind of a loaded question, is my point.

It would be interesting to find out how many black people kill themselves due to their culture in comparison with gays, with culture being the majority expression of a people.

This is kind of a loaded comparison, is my point.

It is, I don't deny it. I don't think it's possible to approach some objective sweeping assessment of "gay culture, good or bad?" until there's been a lot of time of it being normal in most of society (if even then). We're really not there yet. Maybe Europe is closer, maybe not.

A lot of gay culture was born out of marginalization and criminalization. It's not too surprising that it has a lot of toxic elements. But I have a hard time believing that no gay person has ever derived positive experiences from it.

It's also tough to disentangle an individual's experiences from the ways that their participation in gay culture intersects with their other identities.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #331 on: June 21, 2018, 09:04:51 PM »
Laka knows full well that it's pretty much only extremist Christians and Muslims who still preach that gay life is totally unacceptable.

He also knows that gay people have a much higher suicide rate than the general population, especially in the U.S., which is mostly Christian.

He's just like Lady Macbeth. Can't wash the blood off his hands.

Prelest and slander.

What I know is that the Church teaches and will always teach that homosexual acts are a sin.
Those who accept and teach otherwise are not Orthodox, they are outside of the Church.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #332 on: June 21, 2018, 09:06:37 PM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."

The Church lacks nothing. See the Creed where we profess the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church is Catholic, it's complete, it has the fullness of Truth.

Within the teaching of the Truth is that homosexual acts are a sin. Marriage is only between one man and one woman. There cannot be gay "marriage", no matter what the world says.

You mean like it was the teaching of the Church that Christians weren't allowed to join the army... until it wasn't? Or that it was ok to own slaves as long as you treated them well... until it wasn't?

Why does the Church need that?

Because causing unnecessary suffering that often leads to suicide is not a good thing. If the most lurid fantasies of those that imagine that gay couples are all Satanist child molesters having insane coke orgies, I would agree that it should be prohibited. But it's not. It's just normal, consenting adults who just want to live their dang lives.

How is any of that the Church's fault?

It's not. But threatening them with Hell unless they pretend to not be gay (or try to beat themselves into becoming straight) doesn't help matters any.

This is the definition of prelest.
Sin is a choice. If you choose to live in sin and die unrepentant of sin, Christ Himself teaches that you condemn yourself because you willfully separate yourself from God.

Pretending that sin is not sin is demonic. 

Sin is a choice. Being gay isn't. The Venn Diagram might actually overlap, it might be a single circle, but I'm not seeing good reasons to think it does or is. Only a lot of "just-so" stories in service of arbitrary cultural standards not dissimilar to the interracial marriage disapproval of bygone eras (the races are just too different to be compatible, it's a perversion!)

Writing "no homo" into the Creed like you seem determined to do is just as absurd as calling someone a heretic for not being a YEC.

"Prelest," on the internet, seems to be just a thought-terminating cliche used to shut down disagreements.

You're trapped in sinful acceptance of homosexuality.
There's nothing I can say to show you that the Church does not accept that view.
Sorry!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 09:08:07 PM by LakaYaRabb »

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #333 on: June 21, 2018, 09:43:17 PM »
Laka knows full well that it's pretty much only extremist Christians and Muslims who still preach that gay life is totally unacceptable.

He also knows that gay people have a much higher suicide rate than the general population, especially in the U.S., which is mostly Christian.

He's just like Lady Macbeth. Can't wash the blood off his hands.

Prelest and slander.

What I know is that the Church teaches and will always teach that homosexual acts are a sin.
Those who accept and teach otherwise are not Orthodox, they are outside of the Church.
lol I think you’re a bit confused. At least in some places one would have to make serious efforts to be “outside the church “-whatever that means exactly.  Like funny ideas don’t automatically put one outside the church . Even I, a Byzantine atheist, could still blend in if I really wanted   The priests I know in real life could not care less about what I believe or think as long as I make a couple of gestures here and there .
The point is that one doesn’t get in and out of church in the way you imply.
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Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #334 on: June 21, 2018, 09:52:26 PM »
Laka knows full well that it's pretty much only extremist Christians and Muslims who still preach that gay life is totally unacceptable.

He also knows that gay people have a much higher suicide rate than the general population, especially in the U.S., which is mostly Christian.

He's just like Lady Macbeth. Can't wash the blood off his hands.

Prelest and slander.

What I know is that the Church teaches and will always teach that homosexual acts are a sin.
Those who accept and teach otherwise are not Orthodox, they are outside of the Church.
lol I think you’re a bit confused. At least in some places one would have to make serious efforts to be “outside the church “-whatever that means exactly.  Like funny ideas don’t automatically put one outside the church . Even I, a Byzantine atheist, could still blend in if I really wanted   The priests I know in real life could not care less about what I believe or think as long as I make a couple of gestures here and there .
The point is that one doesn’t get in and out of church in the way you imply.
God will judge. Repent and Abandon your atheism. I pray you come to know Him, the One True God. Turn to Christ!

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #335 on: June 21, 2018, 10:16:47 PM »
Laka knows full well that it's pretty much only extremist Christians and Muslims who still preach that gay life is totally unacceptable.

So, homosexual kisses are okay, as long as it's women.  ::)

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #336 on: June 21, 2018, 11:11:16 PM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."

The Church lacks nothing. See the Creed where we profess the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church is Catholic, it's complete, it has the fullness of Truth.

Within the teaching of the Truth is that homosexual acts are a sin. Marriage is only between one man and one woman. There cannot be gay "marriage", no matter what the world says.

You mean like it was the teaching of the Church that Christians weren't allowed to join the army... until it wasn't? Or that it was ok to own slaves as long as you treated them well... until it wasn't?

Why does the Church need that?

Because causing unnecessary suffering that often leads to suicide is not a good thing. If the most lurid fantasies of those that imagine that gay couples are all Satanist child molesters having insane coke orgies, I would agree that it should be prohibited. But it's not. It's just normal, consenting adults who just want to live their dang lives.

How is any of that the Church's fault?

It's not. But threatening them with Hell unless they pretend to not be gay (or try to beat themselves into becoming straight) doesn't help matters any.

This is the definition of prelest.
Sin is a choice. If you choose to live in sin and die unrepentant of sin, Christ Himself teaches that you condemn yourself because you willfully separate yourself from God.

Pretending that sin is not sin is demonic. 

Sin is a choice. Being gay isn't. The Venn Diagram might actually overlap, it might be a single circle, but I'm not seeing good reasons to think it does or is. Only a lot of "just-so" stories in service of arbitrary cultural standards not dissimilar to the interracial marriage disapproval of bygone eras (the races are just too different to be compatible, it's a perversion!)

Writing "no homo" into the Creed like you seem determined to do is just as absurd as calling someone a heretic for not being a YEC.

"Prelest," on the internet, seems to be just a thought-terminating cliche used to shut down disagreements.

You're trapped in sinful acceptance of homosexuality.
There's nothing I can say to show you that the Church does not accept that view.
Sorry!

And I pray that any gay people you know or love aren't too hurt by the bigoted insanity that you've embraced.


See, I can play sanctimonious too :-*
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 11:12:00 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Fr. Alexis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #337 on: June 21, 2018, 11:29:43 PM »
Lord have mercy! Not sanctimonious, sincerely just sad for you.
I pray you will allow the teaching of the Church, of Our Lord, to transform your heart and help you see the Truth.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #338 on: June 22, 2018, 12:50:08 AM »
Lord have mercy! Not sanctimonious, sincerely just sad for you.
I pray you will allow the teaching of the Church, of Our Lord, to transform your heart and help you see the Truth.

Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #339 on: June 22, 2018, 01:21:24 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #340 on: June 22, 2018, 01:55:59 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline recent convert

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #341 on: June 22, 2018, 04:43:37 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

Maybe you are condescending and ignorant of the resolve many people may have.  https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/guys-can-be-celibate-and-enjoy-a-good-life-lbkr/

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #342 on: June 22, 2018, 05:23:53 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

Maybe you are condescending and ignorant of the resolve many people may have.  https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/guys-can-be-celibate-and-enjoy-a-good-life-lbkr/

Some can, some can't (not all are gifted to celibacy, though). But forcing all gay people to do so categorically is cruel. Perhaps it's a necessary cruelty, but it should still be called what it is.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #343 on: June 22, 2018, 06:10:18 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

Maybe you are condescending and ignorant of the resolve many people may have.  https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/guys-can-be-celibate-and-enjoy-a-good-life-lbkr/

Some can, some can't (not all are gifted to celibacy, though). But forcing all gay people to do so categorically is cruel. Perhaps it's a necessary cruelty, but it should still be called what it is.

+1

Since on one else seems to want to bring it up here, I'm wondering what you all make of footnote 6 in Metr. Kallistos Ware's foreword (linked below) mentioned in the OP.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54d0df1ee4b036ef1e44b144/t/5b199e5f03ce64a767c66c7f/1528405608178/%2313%3A14+Foreword.pdf

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #344 on: June 22, 2018, 06:34:10 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

You know what's crueler than being gay?
How about being born with low-performance autism - which, with the friends of my family, caused a divorce due to financial management issues and infighting.

What about being born with visual schizophrenia? Or severe, incurable seizures? How about clinical depression? How about people getting incurable cancer?

The world is filled with suffering - but we just have to suck it up, trust in God, and be the best people we can be.

It's a lie - and a heresy - to believe that the world can be cured of all of it's problems merely by forcing society and the government to act a certain way. We are too selfish and flawed to fix it.
I'm done.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #345 on: June 22, 2018, 06:37:59 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."

The Church lacks nothing. See the Creed where we profess the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church is Catholic, it's complete, it has the fullness of Truth.

Within the teaching of the Truth is that homosexual acts are a sin. Marriage is only between one man and one woman. There cannot be gay "marriage", no matter what the world says.

You mean like it was the teaching of the Church that Christians weren't allowed to join the army... until it wasn't? Or that it was ok to own slaves as long as you treated them well... until it wasn't?

Why does the Church need that?

Because causing unnecessary suffering that often leads to suicide is not a good thing. If the most lurid fantasies of those that imagine that gay couples are all Satanist child molesters having insane coke orgies, I would agree that it should be prohibited. But it's not. It's just normal, consenting adults who just want to live their dang lives.

How is any of that the Church's fault?

It's not. But threatening them with Hell unless they pretend to not be gay (or try to beat themselves into becoming straight) doesn't help matters any.

This is the definition of prelest.
Sin is a choice. If you choose to live in sin and die unrepentant of sin, Christ Himself teaches that you condemn yourself because you willfully separate yourself from God.

Pretending that sin is not sin is demonic. 

Sin is a choice. Being gay isn't. The Venn Diagram might actually overlap, it might be a single circle, but I'm not seeing good reasons to think it does or is. Only a lot of "just-so" stories in service of arbitrary cultural standards not dissimilar to the interracial marriage disapproval of bygone eras (the races are just too different to be compatible, it's a perversion!)

Writing "no homo" into the Creed like you seem determined to do is just as absurd as calling someone a heretic for not being a YEC.

"Prelest," on the internet, seems to be just a thought-terminating cliche used to shut down disagreements.

You're trapped in sinful acceptance of homosexuality.
There's nothing I can say to show you that the Church does not accept that view.
Sorry!

And I pray that any gay people you know or love aren't too hurt by the bigoted insanity that you've embraced.


See, I can play sanctimonious too :-*

"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household."

If in your opinion Christ's Church holds to the doctrine of bigotry, and by extension Christ Himself was the ultimate bigot - than I hope I can be the biggest bigot possible.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:43:48 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #346 on: June 22, 2018, 06:42:47 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

You know what's crueler than being gay?
How about being born with low-performance autism - which, with the friends of my family, caused a divorce due to financial management issues and infighting.

What about being born with visual schizophrenia? Or severe, incurable seizures? How about clinical depression? How about people getting incurable cancer?

The world is filled with suffering - but we just have to suck it up, trust in God, and be the best people we can be.

It's a lie - and a heresy - to believe that the world can be cured of all of it's problems merely by forcing society and the government to act a certain way. We are too selfish and flawed to fix it.

Yes, life is cruel. That's why we shouldn't make it even more cruel unless we absolutely have to.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #347 on: June 22, 2018, 06:45:34 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."

The Church lacks nothing. See the Creed where we profess the Church to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Church is Catholic, it's complete, it has the fullness of Truth.

Within the teaching of the Truth is that homosexual acts are a sin. Marriage is only between one man and one woman. There cannot be gay "marriage", no matter what the world says.

You mean like it was the teaching of the Church that Christians weren't allowed to join the army... until it wasn't? Or that it was ok to own slaves as long as you treated them well... until it wasn't?

Why does the Church need that?

Because causing unnecessary suffering that often leads to suicide is not a good thing. If the most lurid fantasies of those that imagine that gay couples are all Satanist child molesters having insane coke orgies, I would agree that it should be prohibited. But it's not. It's just normal, consenting adults who just want to live their dang lives.

How is any of that the Church's fault?

It's not. But threatening them with Hell unless they pretend to not be gay (or try to beat themselves into becoming straight) doesn't help matters any.

This is the definition of prelest.
Sin is a choice. If you choose to live in sin and die unrepentant of sin, Christ Himself teaches that you condemn yourself because you willfully separate yourself from God.

Pretending that sin is not sin is demonic. 

Sin is a choice. Being gay isn't. The Venn Diagram might actually overlap, it might be a single circle, but I'm not seeing good reasons to think it does or is. Only a lot of "just-so" stories in service of arbitrary cultural standards not dissimilar to the interracial marriage disapproval of bygone eras (the races are just too different to be compatible, it's a perversion!)

Writing "no homo" into the Creed like you seem determined to do is just as absurd as calling someone a heretic for not being a YEC.

"Prelest," on the internet, seems to be just a thought-terminating cliche used to shut down disagreements.

You're trapped in sinful acceptance of homosexuality.
There's nothing I can say to show you that the Church does not accept that view.
Sorry!

And I pray that any gay people you know or love aren't too hurt by the bigoted insanity that you've embraced.


See, I can play sanctimonious too :-*

"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household."

If in your opinion Christ's Church holds to the doctrine of bigotry, and by extension Christ Himself was the ultimate bigot - than I hope I can be the biggest bigot possible.

It's not like Christ didn't offend anybody.

Hey, if you want to serve the Jesus of Fred Phelps, go for it. I'm sure you'll do him proud. Just be honest and stop claiming that you're doing it out of love.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:50:10 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #348 on: June 22, 2018, 06:49:07 AM »
Well, believe it or not - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not part of Christ's Church in what She teaches.
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #349 on: June 22, 2018, 06:52:02 AM »
Well, believe it or not - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not part of Christ's Church in what She teaches.

As if there's a substantive, real world difference between "God Hates Fags" and "welcome to your new life of forced celibacy, have you thought about auto-castration?" Only in the world of words.

Maybe this is one of Alpha's beloved points of agreement across confessional lines.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:52:55 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #350 on: June 22, 2018, 06:53:38 AM »
I submit that, given the suffering that anti-gay theology causes to gay Christians (especially the ones who don't have the gift of celibacy), the Church needs a far better reason to ban homosexuality than "just because they're the same sex."
Some people suffer because they have a really hard time trying to be faithful to one single person in their whole life too, what's the difference?

The difference is that they at least have somebody. Gay people who are trying to force themselves to be celibate don't have anyone that they could be with even theoretically. I'm operating off a principle of doing the least harm possible.

You know what's crueler than being gay?
How about being born with low-performance autism - which, with the friends of my family, caused a divorce due to financial management issues and infighting.

What about being born with visual schizophrenia? Or severe, incurable seizures? How about clinical depression? How about people getting incurable cancer?

The world is filled with suffering - but we just have to suck it up, trust in God, and be the best people we can be.

It's a lie - and a heresy - to believe that the world can be cured of all of it's problems merely by forcing society and the government to act a certain way. We are too selfish and flawed to fix it.

Yes, life is cruel. That's why we shouldn't make it even more cruel unless we absolutely have to.

Well, that begs the question of the results of cruelty that can be made apparent hypothetically, after same-sex marriage becomes acceptable.

Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that heterosexual couples are restricted by the Church in terms of sexual relationships compared to same-sex couples? Isn't it unnecessarily cruel that children will not have the dynamic of having both a mother and a father to help raise them? Especially for children of the opposite sex who go through puberty and may not receive the answers they are looking for? What about the children in terms of finding a Faith in God - the fact that it would be harder in the sight of clear contradiction by what the Church, the Bible, the Church Fathers, and even some Apocrypha text which some Church Fathers say is canon to believe in God and restrain their passions, ending up in a miserable state of life? Is it fair for heterosexuals to fix the bathroom problem and to have to get changed in front of someone sexually attracted to them? Is it fair for the children of bisexual women to have a higher risk of HIV and death? Is it fair that these people can have clearly unnatural sexual attraction for the same sex, while I can't screw my own animals? Etc. etc. etc.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:58:26 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #351 on: June 22, 2018, 06:54:21 AM »
Well, believe it or not - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not part of Christ's Church in what She teaches.

As if there's a substantive, real world difference between "God Hates Fags" and "welcome to your new life of forced celibacy, have you thought about auto-castration?" Only in the world of words.

Maybe this is one of Alpha's beloved points of agreement across confessional lines.

There's a huge difference.

It's like saying there's no difference between "God hates sluts" and "You can't have sex before marriage."
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:57:22 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #352 on: June 22, 2018, 06:57:43 AM »
Well, believe it or not - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not part of Christ's Church in what She teaches.

As if there's a substantive, real world difference between "God Hates Fags" and "welcome to your new life of forced celibacy, have you thought about auto-castration?" Only in the world of words.

Maybe this is one of Alpha's beloved points of agreement across confessional lines.

There's a huge difference.

It's like saying there's no difference between "God hates whores" and "You can't have sex before marriage."

Except that there's nobody whose sexuality is dependent on getting paid for it such that they're incapable of having a relationship without it. Forcing celibacy on somebody who isn't cut out for it is a hateful act, even if you're not saying the word "hate."
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #353 on: June 22, 2018, 06:59:12 AM »
Is it hateful and cruel to ask people not to sin?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #354 on: June 22, 2018, 06:59:45 AM »
Well, believe it or not - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not part of Christ's Church in what She teaches.

As if there's a substantive, real world difference between "God Hates Fags" and "welcome to your new life of forced celibacy, have you thought about auto-castration?" Only in the world of words.

Maybe this is one of Alpha's beloved points of agreement across confessional lines.

There's a huge difference.

It's like saying there's no difference between "God hates whores" and "You can't have sex before marriage."

Except that there's nobody whose sexuality is dependent on getting paid for it such that they're incapable of having a relationship without it. Forcing celibacy on somebody who isn't cut out for it is a hateful act, even if you're not saying the word "hate."

You know, virtually all the Saints who were the monastics and bishops in the Church were called to celibacy by God to their death. Was God being unnaturally cruel to the folks of Saint Jerome and Saint Augustine for example?

Both of these Saints gawked at the fact that they weren't allowed to have sex, and had a huge trouble and struggle in obtaining celibacy.

In fact, Saint Benedict had a rough time, such that he found it necessary to roll in a thorny bush naked in order to restrain his passions.

"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:01:09 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #355 on: June 22, 2018, 07:05:43 AM »
Well, believe it or not - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not part of Christ's Church in what She teaches.

As if there's a substantive, real world difference between "God Hates Fags" and "welcome to your new life of forced celibacy, have you thought about auto-castration?" Only in the world of words.

Maybe this is one of Alpha's beloved points of agreement across confessional lines.

There's a huge difference.

It's like saying there's no difference between "God hates whores" and "You can't have sex before marriage."

Except that there's nobody whose sexuality is dependent on getting paid for it such that they're incapable of having a relationship without it. Forcing celibacy on somebody who isn't cut out for it is a hateful act, even if you're not saying the word "hate."

You know, virtually all the Saints who were the monastics and bishops in the Church were called to celibacy by God to their death. Was God being unnaturally cruel to the folks of Saint Jerome and Saint Augustine for example?

Both of these Saints gawked at the fact that they weren't allowed to have sex, and had a huge trouble and struggle in obtaining celibacy.

In fact, Saint Benedict had a rough time, such that he found it necessary to roll in a thorny bush naked in order to restrain his passions.

"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

All done as part of monasticism. Are you suggesting that ALL homosexuals are called to monasticism? That seems... highly unlikely.

Even if so, it's something for them to discern on their own. The Church thrusting monasticism on an entire class of people as a condition of even becoming Christian doesn't make much sense.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:06:41 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #356 on: June 22, 2018, 07:07:58 AM »
I'm not suggesting that - I'm suggesting that God calls us to suffer and do difficult things, and we become better people because of it. Saint Paul was essentially a murderer, and Saint Peter was a fisherman - yet both were called by God and traveled around the known world and spread the Gospel, and both of whom were persecuted, suffered, and were murdered - yet they are both examples of a life to model after.

Once again,
"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Why do priests where Crosses again?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:11:41 AM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #357 on: June 22, 2018, 07:11:34 AM »
Is it hateful and cruel to ask people not to sin?

No. Which is why the manifest cruelty involved in prohibiting homosexuality (which on its own is not clearly harmful) indicates to me that it's not, in fact, a sin.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #358 on: June 22, 2018, 07:12:32 AM »
I have to go for now, but I will pick up this discussion later tonight. Thanks for the conversation, Volnutt.
I'm done.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #359 on: June 22, 2018, 07:17:26 AM »
I'm not suggesting that - I'm suggesting that God calls us to suffer and do difficult things, and we become better people because of it. Saint Paul was essentially a murderer, and Saint Peter was a fisherman - yet both were called by God and traveled around the known world and spread the Gospel, and both of whom were persecuted, suffered, and were murdered - yet they are both examples of a life to model after.

Once again,
"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Why do priests where Crosses again?

God asks difficult things of individuals (and all the individuals you've named also had their sexual struggles in a monastic context). I don't see Him handing down sweeping mandates to all people of a particular grouping no matter what.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.