Author Topic: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage  (Read 11606 times)

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2018, 02:52:41 PM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?

The sin of Sodom (or rather, one of the sins, Ezekiel 16 also mentions their lack of charity) was not just gay sex, it was attempted rape. Isn't that like saying that a story about an ax murderer is really about the ax?

The name of the city would have been rape and not Sodom and Gomorrah. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2018, 02:53:18 PM »
http://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217

Ill listen to my gut. Its unnatural, and sterile hence its against god

I'm sterile. I can't have children, because I have ovarian cysts. I'm a heterosexual woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order.
even if you were fertile, you can't marry a silverback ape. In the Church, that is. Legally that will be just around the corner...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:54:03 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2018, 02:58:21 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.
that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2018, 02:59:25 PM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?

The sin of Sodom (or rather, one of the sins, Ezekiel 16 also mentions their lack of charity) was not just gay sex, it was attempted rape. Isn't that like saying that a story about an ax murderer is really about the ax?

The name of the city would have been rape and not Sodom and Gomorrah.

Cities aren't named after the things people do there.

The name of the city wouldn't have been rape.

The term 'sodomy' became used to mean male anal sex *long after* the existence of the two towns.

Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2018, 03:00:15 PM »
http://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217

Ill listen to my gut. Its unnatural, and sterile hence its against god

"Wisdom of disgust" arguments don't really prove anything. I'm sure that some people are disgusted by interracial marriage. too.

Ahhh there you again, conflating someone with skin color they can not change, born that way, with fallen people, who have the free will to chose it not chose to have sexual intercourse, or marry someone of the same sex,

Do they have the free will to? Are all gay people really gifted for celibacy? I don't see that in evidence.
Are all single people really gifted for celibacy? I don't see that in evidence.

Except for Moonies, I've never know straight people marrying any random person of the opposite sex.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2018, 03:01:39 PM »
http://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217

Ill listen to my gut. Its unnatural, and sterile hence its against god

"Wisdom of disgust" arguments don't really prove anything. I'm sure that some people are disgusted by interracial marriage. too.

Ahhh there you again, conflating someone with skin color they can not change, born that way, with fallen people, who have the free will to chose it not chose to have sexual intercourse, or marry someone of the same sex,

Do they have the free will to?

Amazing...in an effort to defend homosexual persons and their dignity, you debase and dehumanize them in a way that goes beyond anything anyone else in this discussion has dared to suggest.
Funny how that goes around-to defend homosexual sexuality, we have to debase humanity.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #141 on: June 15, 2018, 03:03:30 PM »
The same people, yelling the same old things, over and over and over.

 ::)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #142 on: June 15, 2018, 03:03:39 PM »
The difference is that incest, affairs, etc. at least have alternatives...

How so?  If I want to have sex with my sister, having sex with someone else’s sister (as nice an experience as it may be for the latter) just isn’t going to cut it for me.

Yes, but you can have sex with some other woman, even if it's a little disappointing. A gay person has three choices- celibacy, castration, or hell.

Thats if you believe that they were born that way, which i dont and many others agree with. Like most sins they are taught and how many men that have had a same sex affair turned straight and stayed straight.

Oh cool. More pseduoscience from the antivaxxer. Give me a second to realign my chakras before you start.

The problem is, if the church caves to homosexuals, then it must do so for every other degenerate mental disorder. So mext year we'll have the same discussion about men who've chopped off their "digit", then the next year incest, the next beastiality. Its just a slight shifting of the overton window over and over till the church is destroyed.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy unless you can show that one thing really will lead to another.

Just like people in this thread keep putting scare quotes around gay marriage in the hope that it sticks, you just saying that it's a mental disorder doesn't make it so.
saying it is normal, natural or sane does not make it so.

As society slides down the slope, one need only look.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #143 on: June 15, 2018, 03:07:54 PM »
The same people, yelling the same old things, over and over and over.

 ::)
yes, we hear you echoing again and again and again.Try this  :-X
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #144 on: June 15, 2018, 03:08:28 PM »
The Bible also says God hates divorce.

Why is Ialmisry still posting here, when he has done something God hates?

Even if he needed it, even if his ex-wife was really bad to him, why is he allowed to continue posting?

Something to ponder.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2018, 03:10:37 PM »
Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?
First, what is your source for that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #146 on: June 15, 2018, 03:13:56 PM »
The Bible also says God hates divorce.

Why is Ialmisry still posting here, when he has done something God hates?

Even if he needed it, even if his ex-wife was really bad to him, why is he allowed to continue posting?

Something to ponder.
Something to ponder: your echoing has rendered you deaf, if you weren't before.

Ialmisry did not do something God hates. He was on the receiving end, a fact that has been in evidence looooong ago here, and you ignore because it stands in the way of your pot shots.

But then I forgot part of being morally dissolute is the inability to distinguish guilt from innocence.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #147 on: June 15, 2018, 03:14:26 PM »
Marriage is a Sacrament of a joining of one man with one woman ```

Two men ~ two woman ~ a dog and a chicken or any unnatural combination is an abomination ``` The foolish ~ the unprincipled politician and the atheist political left ~ have arranged that the word Christians have used for a High Sacrament to be title of a  legal document ~ as contract between perverted adults ```

This is not and will never be Holy Matrimony ~ not ~ Christ nor His Church will ever sanction sin ```


I'm surprised at the comparison of animal practice to justify filth being natural ~ dogs eat their own crap and that of other animals ~ this dirty habit ~ in no way makes it right or natural for humans ```

I agree about appeals to animals. They generally fail.

But comparing two adult humans to a human having sex with an animal fails because animals are not consenting beings that can enter into relationships.

You BIGOT, why cant jimmy and scoobydoo get married? He was born loving dogs, its natural and you are a hateful bigot.
Scooby loves jimmy he shows his affection everyday.

Yes, because a dog showing affection for his owner is the same as one adult human falling in love with another.


And Mor said that I was being dehumanizing.

The difference is that incest, affairs, etc. at least have alternatives...

How so?  If I want to have sex with my sister, having sex with someone else’s sister (as nice an experience as it may be for the latter) just isn’t going to cut it for me.

Yes, but you can have sex with some other woman, even if it's a little disappointing. A gay person has three choices- celibacy, castration, or hell.

Thats if you believe that they were born that way, which i dont and many others agree with. Like most sins they are taught and how many men that have had a same sex affair turned straight and stayed straight.

Oh cool. More pseduoscience from the antivaxxer. Give me a second to realign my chakras before you start.

The problem is, if the church caves to homosexuals, then it must do so for every other degenerate mental disorder. So mext year we'll have the same discussion about men who've chopped off their "digit", then the next year incest, the next beastiality. Its just a slight shifting of the overton window over and over till the church is destroyed.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy unless you can show that one thing really will lead to another.

Just like people in this thread keep putting scare quotes around gay marriage in the hope that it sticks, you just saying that it's a mental disorder doesn't make it so.

So 20 years ago we had cross dressers demanding to have laws changed to allow them to access female locker rooms/bathrooms? We had gay groups demanding jail time for anyone who calls someone the wrong pronoun?

I never said we did.

No we didnt, and if you cant see how the GAY AGENDA has progressively pushed more and more degeneracy from gay rights to trans, to no binary gender dysphoria, to drag queen kids, ill call you blind.

The "gay agenda" is just people like you and me (some of them Christian. Some even Orthodox, I'm sure) who just want to live their lives without being harassed (legally or interpersonally- like when some well-intentioned spiritual abuser tells them that they're going to Hell for being who they are).



Everyone can see the progession in the past few decades,
https://desmondisamazing.com
As a parent who sees the content being pushed at the youth im appalled. Like i said before, they are pushing for our kids to be gay, to accept it as NORMAL.
  People who push a 10 year old boy into being gay dont have a mental disorder? Huh, i guess thats normal.....

Who says the kid is being pushed? Allowing them to do something they can't easily take back, like surgery, is probably a bad idea on the part of the parents. But who's being harmed by allowing them to live how they want to right now and either confirm a trans identity or not for themselves as they grow up and find out who they are like any other child does?

Seems to me that getting a bunch of adults and authority figures together to try and coerce the kid into gender conformity will do a heck of a lot more psychological harm than that (and woe betide the parents if the kid doesn't grow up agreeing with such a decision).

You side step all my statements, then claim its ok for a kid t behave how they want. When my kid was little she pretended to be a unicorn, should i have tried to get her surgeries and helped her transition?

If there was a way for one to be human but also somehow a unicorn (or a cat or Napoleon or "black" like Rachel Dolezal, or whatever), maybe, though it would still depend on a lot of particulars. But there doesn't seem to be such a mechanism. Gender, on the other hand, is something that science just barely understands when it comes to even just the mind and body, never mind the difficulties inherent when the spiritual is added to the mix.

But like I said in that other thread, I'm less confident on trans issues than I am on gay rights (yes, I know this wouldn't endear me to many LGBT people).

I still maintain that "repairitive therapy" is mostly abusive, though.

I dont claim 100% of gays push the movement to ever more degrading societal behavior, but the fact that the movement does doesnt change the fact its happening.

You dont think the Overton window has shifted? Societal norms have degraded and i dont see the GAY AGENDA stopping its push for ever more degeneracy in society. My statement is, when dose it stop? What the real goal, because like ive said gays can marry, they have legal protection, they aee excepted in 2018 society  (i don't thinkit should be, but it is) so why do they keep pushing revolution/rebellion against societal norms?

For now, they are. But plenty of people would like to change this (just as there were and are people who would like to roll back racial rights). It's just the same vigilance that you urge conservative Christians to have (sauce for the goose, as it were).

I don't deny that there are some activists who can be overzealous or make bad arguments. But they're likely a minority and I see no reason to conclude that it's some sinister organized thing. You and Julio are mistaking people with common goals for a conspiracy and making unwarranted extrapolations from there.

We are on opposite ends of this, i wont change yours, and you wont change mine. Enjoy the weekend.

Fair enough. God bless.

To all others please watch the video, its spot on

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-OXt5NWcRs

E. MIchael jones, a scholar and author sums it up in under 10mins.

E. Michael Jones is an antisemitic nut.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #148 on: June 15, 2018, 03:15:19 PM »
Malachi 2:16

“For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #149 on: June 15, 2018, 03:16:48 PM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?

The sin of Sodom (or rather, one of the sins, Ezekiel 16 also mentions their lack of charity) was not just gay sex, it was attempted rape. Isn't that like saying that a story about an ax murderer is really about the ax?

The name of the city would have been rape and not Sodom and Gomorrah.

Cities aren't named after the things people do there.

The name of the city wouldn't have been rape.

The term 'sodomy' became used to mean male anal sex *long after* the existence of the two towns.

Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?

You're right about the city, but you're confusing Noah with Lot.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #150 on: June 15, 2018, 03:18:19 PM »
Malachi 2:16

“For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”
Since Ialmisry is not said man, is there a reason for posting this, or is just for yelling the same old things, over and over and over?
 :-X
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #151 on: June 15, 2018, 03:19:31 PM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?

The sin of Sodom (or rather, one of the sins, Ezekiel 16 also mentions their lack of charity) was not just gay sex, it was attempted rape. Isn't that like saying that a story about an ax murderer is really about the ax?

The name of the city would have been rape and not Sodom and Gomorrah.

Cities aren't named after the things people do there.

The name of the city wouldn't have been rape.

The term 'sodomy' became used to mean male anal sex *long after* the existence of the two towns.

Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?

You're right about the city
That's for sure: I just came back from San Francisco, and St. Francis it is NOT.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #152 on: June 15, 2018, 03:36:48 PM »
Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?

I'm asking the same question.

biro, I think you're conflating his story with Lot, whose "sleeping with his daughters" would be called "date rape" now (since they got him intoxicated in order to get him to impregnate them).

Genesis 19:30-38 (NKJV)
Quote
30 Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. 31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.  34 It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 35 Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.  36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son and called his name Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the people of Ammon to this day.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:41:31 PM by Fr. George »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #153 on: June 15, 2018, 03:38:13 PM »
The Bible also says God hates divorce.

Why is Ialmisry still posting here, when he has done something God hates?

Even if he needed it, even if his ex-wife was really bad to him, why is he allowed to continue posting?

Something to ponder.
Something to ponder: your echoing has rendered you deaf, if you weren't before.

Ialmisry did not do something God hates. He was on the receiving end, a fact that has been in evidence looooong ago here, and you ignore because it stands in the way of your pot shots.

biro, there is typically a distinction made between the one initiating divorce and the one on the receiving end, both in civil circles and in ecclesiastical ones.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #154 on: June 15, 2018, 03:38:41 PM »
Fair enough. But what does this tell us about the nature of the genders and their natural roles if women don't as much need men to protect them?
Not much, at least not prescriptively.

Quote from: 1 Peter 3:7
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

Quote from: 1 Timothy 2:11-14
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Whatever the proper interpretation of these passages, they seem to be putting a lot of weight on the supposed weakness of women. It seems like Peter and Paul both thought that nature had some prescriptive things to say about gender roles.

Heck, if we somehow, someday develop the technology to enable some kind of same sex conception, how do we know that's not the perfect will of God to enable gay couples to conceive?
Sure, God's will can extrapolate any of our theories, but that's not what he wants. He made it very clear in Scripture. Hebrews and Christians have done far more subversive stuff than gay marriage in our long history and none of it included blessing homosexual unions, on the contrary. No saint suggested that, no Scripture left room for that. If sodomy were something as trivial as pork or Saturday, we would have found out without people who have absolutely nothing to do with the Church telling us so.

Why would they, though? In their day, people only thought of homosexuality as sex (and that often including a power imbalance). Nobody really had a concept of the kind of gay relationships that can exist today. It would be like the Church Fathers briefing us on how to dispose of nuclear waste. Yet it's still something vital for us to understand.

Church history is not dialectic with the world, at least not intrinsically. The only dialectics of the Church are extrinsic: the City of God vs. the City of Man, or Orthodoxy vs. The Religion of the Future.

Christianity is not Gnostic, though. It interacts with things that go on in the world. Episcopal celibacy, Christians being allowed to serve in the military, the rise of monasticism, absolute abolitionism, the theory of a Christian Empire or society, the end of baptizing nude, the end/changing of the love feast, calendar changes, theology of the environment- all of these are changes in Church procedure or doctrine brought about by people's conditions in the world.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:41:37 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2018, 03:38:49 PM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?

The sin of Sodom (or rather, one of the sins, Ezekiel 16 also mentions their lack of charity) was not just gay sex, it was attempted rape. Isn't that like saying that a story about an ax murderer is really about the ax?

The name of the city would have been rape and not Sodom and Gomorrah.

Cities aren't named after the things people do there.

The name of the city wouldn't have been rape.

The term 'sodomy' became used to mean male anal sex *long after* the existence of the two towns.

Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?
Were you in the bedroom to variety?

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2018, 03:40:21 PM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2018, 04:04:16 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.

First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces. Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.

that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2018, 04:13:19 PM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.
Hi father. Are we talking about OC net?

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #159 on: June 15, 2018, 06:04:02 PM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.
Hi father. Are we talking about OC net?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

But seriously - discussions on topics like Homosexuality are not aided by appeals to lower animals.  There are scores of activities seen as "natural" for other mammals and others which would be abhorrent in humans (especially from the POV of the Gospel).  By pointing out the ridiculous (an occasion when the described action is seen in humanity, as an example of why it doesn't work here) my aim is to steer us back to something more helpful (i.e. keeping the inherent dignity of the homosexual human in mind, even if one finds the actions objectionable).
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #160 on: June 15, 2018, 08:45:10 PM »
Article by Fr. Lawrence Farley:  https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/nootherfoundation/metropolitan-kallistos-and-the-wheel/

Here is an interesting comment to the above that I thought was worth sharing...

Quote
Ralph Sidway says:   
June 14, 2018 at 7:49 pm

Fr Lawrence, at the risk of wearing out my welcome with two (!) comments on this issue, I should like to suggest that one aspect in the discussion of this issue which, as you noted, is “the frontline in the World’s perennial war against the Church,” seems to be missed.

I am speaking of the Cross, and specifically of the truth that those with same-sex attraction have a particularly challenging cross to bear.

It seems to me that a vibrant Orthodox pastoral approach to helping such persons bear their cross well would include recognizing it as a cross, and seeking to engage with the SSA (same-sex afflicted) person to lead them to desire to take up that cross, not to deny it by asserting that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with their desires. Once a person accepts reality and truth, and desires to take up their cross, they have graduated to the level of ‘struggler’ and are quite likely to be blessed by the Lord with moments of grace so as to ‘struggle well’, even to their last breath.

I would even go so far as to say that by not articulating a pastoral theology centered on taking up one’s cross and bearing it, we are inadvertently allowing an enormous obstacle to remain before the SSA person. In our age, any pastoral counsel limited to merely practical demands (“live in celibacy”) will likely fail to convert the SSA person into a cross-bearer and struggler.

One more component of this horribly challenging cross which should be drawn out is the immeasurably glorious crown which awaits those SSA persons who do choose to take up their cross and follow Christ, who choose to struggle. Let us. It forget that Jesus would have been eating and drinking with SSA persons, while still publicly preaching repentance, and not a few would have heard His call and brought myrrh in repentance, falling on their faces to daringly anoint His feet.

It has been said by the Desert Fathers that “in the latter days, those who merely hold to the faith will be counted greater than the early fathers and ascetics who worked miracles and raised the dead.” It seems to me that this is the pastoral opportunity which we must seize and articulate – even thunder from the amvon, as it contains within it all the power of the Gospel, of the Risen and Glorified Lord Himself. Yes, perhaps many SSA persons will reject their cross, but think of the few who will catch a glimpse of the truth and will step out in faith and love for the Lord, and enter into the Arena of martyrdom (for that is what they are being called to!), rather than siding with the lions against the Christians.
Forgive me…
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #161 on: June 15, 2018, 11:02:13 PM »
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2018/06/13/the-church-and-homosexuality-a-meditation

From the brilliant article above:
Quote
If, however, we encounter “same sex couples who…knock on the doors of our parishes seeking Christ,” if they truly want Christ, then we must bring them where they will find him: the foot of the Cross. If they are looking for the way home, we must not provide a faulty map. We cannot give a stone to those asking for bread. To those hungry for the imperishable sustenance of the Kingdom, we cannot instead dish out the prodigal son’s pig slop. We know the way to the Father’s house, and sodomy lies in the opposite direction (Lk. 15:16; Lk. 17:29–32).

A propos:
Quote from: Rm 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #162 on: June 15, 2018, 11:42:40 PM »
Quote
I don't advocate extramarital sex for anybody.

Well, that's the key, there is no such thing as homossexual ''marriage'', a marriage is exclusively between man and woman,

Is that so? How do you figure?
He Who instituted and created it so defined it. See St. Matthew's Gospel.

Can we really take that much from "male and female He created them," though? I'm not sure.
The Church is.
First of all, the immediate context is the incongruity of divorce in God's purpose, which would be true for both straight and gay divorces.
Since God has no purpose for "gay marriage," the issue of gay divorce does not come up (btw, IL and NY both had "gay divorce" before "gay marriage").
Second, I wouldn't expect Jesus to mention gay marriage for the same reason we don't find Him calling for the emancipation of all slaves, either His audience was apparently not ready for it or it just wasn't yet germane to His mission.
He does talk about marriage, divorce, freedom and slavery. He does not mention Adam and Steve at all.

that's what generates offspring.
So, infertility should come with a mandatory "do not marry" tag even for straight people?
Abraham and Sarah conceived. Abraham and Lot never would.

The fact that a fertility test would be mandatory for straight people and superfluous for homosexuals undermines your point.

Abraham and Lot could if God wanted them to. If God didn't want it, Abraham and Sarah would never have conceived and neither would a young, otherwise fertile straight couple.
God never wanted Abraham and Lot to conceive, and He doesn't want Joe and Bruce to try.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 11:43:19 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #163 on: June 15, 2018, 11:55:13 PM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?

« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 11:58:14 PM by biro »
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Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #164 on: June 16, 2018, 12:00:07 AM »
The Bible also says God hates divorce.

Why is Ialmisry still posting here, when he has done something God hates?

Even if he needed it, even if his ex-wife was really bad to him, why is he allowed to continue posting?

Something to ponder.
Something to ponder: your echoing has rendered you deaf, if you weren't before.

Ialmisry did not do something God hates. He was on the receiving end, a fact that has been in evidence looooong ago here, and you ignore because it stands in the way of your pot shots.

biro, there is typically a distinction made between the one initiating divorce and the one on the receiving end, both in civil circles and in ecclesiastical ones.

That's funny.

Really funny.

Also, no, in most states there is not a distinction between the two asking for divorce. It's called no fault.

Repeat: "I hate divorce." Malachi. :)
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #165 on: June 16, 2018, 12:04:07 AM »
Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?

I'm asking the same question.

biro, I think you're conflating his story with Lot, whose "sleeping with his daughters" would be called "date rape" now (since they got him intoxicated in order to get him to impregnate them).

Genesis 19:30-38 (NKJV)
Quote
30 Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. 31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.  34 It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 35 Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.  36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son and called his name Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the people of Ammon to this day.

Poor fella, couldn't stop himself from raping his daughters.

Poor adult "victim" of "assault" by teen girls.

That's funny, I've been very drunk in my life, but I never raped anyone, and never got raped.

They raped him?

First time I'm hearing this.

You get more entertaining as you type.

Also, it still has nothing to do with peaceful relationships between consenting gay adults who want to get married.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #166 on: June 16, 2018, 12:04:46 AM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?
you have a dinner date like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKDX-qJaJ08
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #167 on: June 16, 2018, 12:05:12 AM »
I wonder if simple belief that the account of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis -19 rooted in fear of the Lord  & understood as sin will automatically be assumed to be termed “hatred” in the near future?

The sin of Sodom (or rather, one of the sins, Ezekiel 16 also mentions their lack of charity) was not just gay sex, it was attempted rape. Isn't that like saying that a story about an ax murderer is really about the ax?

The name of the city would have been rape and not Sodom and Gomorrah.

Cities aren't named after the things people do there.

The name of the city wouldn't have been rape.

The term 'sodomy' became used to mean male anal sex *long after* the existence of the two towns.

Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?
Were you in the bedroom to variety?

What the hell did you just say?

That makes no sense.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #168 on: June 16, 2018, 12:05:31 AM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?
If i put a two plates in front of you. Would you choose a t-bone steak or a roach.
Regardless of cost. Which would you choose?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 12:08:41 AM by Tzimis »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #169 on: June 16, 2018, 12:06:58 AM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

I'm not sure if you noticed your switch in address, from "Lots of people" to "I just showed you."  It demonstrates that you're not, in this case, holding a discussion with me based on what I'm saying, but instead are addressing comments to the collective but acting as if you're addressing my points.  You haven't.  You degrade the actual human beings who are (or claim) homosexual attraction by comparing them to silverbacks.  You can't justify as dignified a human action by saying that it's found among lower primates and other animals.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

One of the points of parenthood is teaching kids not to do this, because it's (a) beneath their dignity, and (b) unsanitary.  By bringing kids into this you undercut your point.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?

Who said I'm shocked?  I'm not "shocked" by anything that humans do; sin is pervasive, the fallen nature of the world nearly inescapable (without Christ).

(BTW: Who said anything about "bugs?"  I brought up eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging poo, and you deflect with non-sequiturs about the benefits of eating bugs.  Ticks carry Lyme Disease and should be destroyed; eating anything out of one another's hair brings health risks.  If you want to make a general point, refute the specific one first.)
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Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #170 on: June 16, 2018, 12:08:00 AM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?
If i put a two plates in front of you. Would you choose a t-bone stake or a roach.
Regardless of cost. Which would you choose?

I have said I would not eat a roach.

But again, in some cultures, they can.

Again, why are you shocked? Have you traveled at all?

I don't like t-bone.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #171 on: June 16, 2018, 12:08:12 AM »
The Bible also says God hates divorce.

Why is Ialmisry still posting here, when he has done something God hates?

Even if he needed it, even if his ex-wife was really bad to him, why is he allowed to continue posting?

Something to ponder.
Something to ponder: your echoing has rendered you deaf, if you weren't before.

Ialmisry did not do something God hates. He was on the receiving end, a fact that has been in evidence looooong ago here, and you ignore because it stands in the way of your pot shots.

biro, there is typically a distinction made between the one initiating divorce and the one on the receiving end, both in civil circles and in ecclesiastical ones.

That's funny.

Really funny.

Also, no, in most states there is not a distinction between the two asking for divorce. It's called no fault.

Repeat: "I hate divorce." Malachi. :)
and the echo chamber in the wind tunnel drones on...

Father did not say a thing about two asking for divorce, so your ignorance on divorce law bears no relevance.

It takes two to make a marriage. It takes only one to make a divorce.

Repeat: "Thou shalt not bear false witness." The Lord.  :(
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #172 on: June 16, 2018, 12:09:55 AM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

I'm not sure if you noticed your switch in address, from "Lots of people" to "I just showed you."  It demonstrates that you're not, in this case, holding a discussion with me based on what I'm saying, but instead are addressing comments to the collective but acting as if you're addressing my points.  You haven't.  You degrade the actual human beings who are (or claim) homosexual attraction by comparing them to silverbacks.  You can't justify as dignified a human action by saying that it's found among lower primates and other animals.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

One of the points of parenthood is teaching kids not to do this, because it's (a) beneath their dignity, and (b) unsanitary.  By bringing kids into this you undercut your point.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?

Who said I'm shocked?  I'm not "shocked" by anything that humans do; sin is pervasive, the fallen nature of the world nearly inescapable (without Christ).

(BTW: Who said anything about "bugs?"  I brought up eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging poo, and you deflect with non-sequiturs about the benefits of eating bugs.  Ticks carry Lyme Disease and should be destroyed; eating anything out of one another's hair brings health risks.  If you want to make a general point, refute the specific one first.)

I already did.

You are getting tiring. A tick in general slang is a bug. And I said, people probably shouldn't eat bugs, but they sometimes do.

Putting you on Ignore.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #173 on: June 16, 2018, 12:10:54 AM »
2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

This links with the history of how homosexuality has been viewed in the Christian west. Before it was known that some animals engage in homosexual behaviour it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting because 'not even the animals do it'. After it was discovered that some animals have homosexual encounters it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting 'because they were doing something animals do'. My guess is that if one starts from one's own disgust (or lack of disgust) at homosexuality, one finds evidence to support one's case everywhere--even in the Bible.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2018, 12:11:29 AM »
Also, what about Noah, who slept with his own daughters after the flood?

What is your excuse for that?

I'm asking the same question.

biro, I think you're conflating his story with Lot, whose "sleeping with his daughters" would be called "date rape" now (since they got him intoxicated in order to get him to impregnate them).

Genesis 19:30-38 (NKJV)
Quote
30 Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. 31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.  34 It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 35 Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.  36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son and called his name Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the people of Ammon to this day.

Poor fella, couldn't stop himself from raping his daughters.

Poor adult "victim" of "assault" by teen girls.

That's funny, I've been very drunk in my life, but I never raped anyone, and never got raped.

They raped him?

First time I'm hearing this.

You get more entertaining as you type.

Also, it still has nothing to do with peaceful relationships between consenting gay adults who want to get married.

1. I didn't bring it up, you did - and you mis-referenced it, to boot.  I never thought it had anything to do with this discussion, but you decided to throw it in the mix.

2. Since you brought it up, I decided to clear up your misconceptions.  The text is really clear - they got him so drunk that he didn't know what was going on.  The fact that you've never been that drunk (and neither have I) doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I've met folks who blackout when drunk.  We know cases of both males raping femals and females raping males where one party had zero cognizance of what was happening in the moment.
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Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #175 on: June 16, 2018, 12:13:18 AM »
2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

This links with the history of how homosexuality has been viewed in the Christian west. Before it was known that some animals engage in homosexual behaviour it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting because 'not even the animals do it'. After it was discovered that some animals have homosexual encounters it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting 'because they were doing something animals do'. My guess is that if one starts from one's own disgust (or lack of disgust) at homosexuality, one finds evidence to support one's case everywhere--even in the Bible.

Thank you.

God created all creatures, and He loves the whole cosmos. (Jn. 3:16)

Really, now, would a little child get damned to Hell if he were walking outside and he saw a bug and tried to eat it?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #176 on: June 16, 2018, 12:15:23 AM »
The Bible also says God hates divorce.

Why is Ialmisry still posting here, when he has done something God hates?

Even if he needed it, even if his ex-wife was really bad to him, why is he allowed to continue posting?

Something to ponder.
Something to ponder: your echoing has rendered you deaf, if you weren't before.

Ialmisry did not do something God hates. He was on the receiving end, a fact that has been in evidence looooong ago here, and you ignore because it stands in the way of your pot shots.

biro, there is typically a distinction made between the one initiating divorce and the one on the receiving end, both in civil circles and in ecclesiastical ones.

That's funny.

Really funny.

Also, no, in most states there is not a distinction between the two asking for divorce. It's called no fault.

Repeat: "I hate divorce." Malachi. :)

There is always a distinction in who asks for the divorce versus the one not asking for the divorce.  That is a matter separate from the question of fault, which goes to the underlying justifications for breaking the marital bond (i.e. before the advent of "no fault" divorce, one party had to be determined to have violated the covenant and been "at fault" - which was also not necessarily connected to the person asking for the divorce, since the judge was free to find fault with the petitioner).
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #177 on: June 16, 2018, 12:20:32 AM »
Also, male silverback apes have been observed having sex with younger males. Sex is not just for reproduction. It also enforces pack social order. 

I'm not sure that using nature's equivalent of prison rape as an example is exactly going to help.

Please explain how that is rape.

Until recently, no one would admit it even happens.

These are lower animals. Supposedly, they don't even have will.  ::)

1. Prison rape occurs to enforce pack social order.

2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

Nice try.

Lots of people have said homosexual behavior *never* occurs in nature.

I just showed you that it does.

Besides, eating bugs and throwing poo are things that little infants are allowed to do - or at least manage to get away with them a few times, when they're too young to know any better.

I heard a major league baseball catcher brag about how he eats bugs, when his teammates would ask him to, on bets.

Also, there are increasing articles these days about how people can or should eat bugs.

They probably shouldn't, but google it anyway. Supposedly, in Mexico, people eat ants at the movie theater, the way Americans snack on popcorn. At my local candy store, you can buy dead bugs in boxes.

My coworker once told me she ate a roach, and she thought it tasted good.

I'd never do that, but why are you shocked?
If i put a two plates in front of you. Would you choose a t-bone stake or a roach.
Regardless of cost. Which would you choose?

I have said I would not eat a roach.

But again, in some cultures, they can.

Again, why are you shocked? Have you traveled at all?

I don't like t-bone.
If one is starving than I can see themselves lowered to the level of survivor mode. But, i definitely don't see anyone choosing it if its on the menu.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #178 on: June 16, 2018, 12:22:00 AM »
2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

This links with the history of how homosexuality has been viewed in the Christian west. Before it was known that some animals engage in homosexual behaviour it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting because 'not even the animals do it'. After it was discovered that some animals have homosexual encounters it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting 'because they were doing something animals do'.

I can see how this would be incredibly frustrating.  There are times when the one is applicable (i.e. there are gross depravities that are not observed in the animal kingdom that humans are capable of, like Nuclear War), and other times when the other is applicable (i.e. there are creatures which engage in cannibalism).  Flip-flopping, though, seems like a cheap approach. 

That's why I'm not making either argument - I'm saying that comparisons (favorable or unfavorable) inherently reduce the dignity of the human.  I suppose you could call it a theanthropocentric approach - we may be creatures, but the image of God changes our point of comparative reference.

My guess is that if one starts from one's own disgust (or lack of disgust) at homosexuality, one finds evidence to support one's case everywhere--even in the Bible.

Those who wish to find causes for disgust in anything - polygamy, monogamy, sex of any kind, asexuality, etc. - can find them.

The Scripture is so richly adorned that one can find justification for nearly anything they want if they're willing to take them out of the larger context of the Tradition of the Church.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #179 on: June 16, 2018, 12:22:59 AM »
2. Comparing human beings to lower primates in order to justify the human behavior only debases the human, unless you're honestly going to justify eating ticks out of each other's hair and flinging feces as being acceptable human behavior.

This links with the history of how homosexuality has been viewed in the Christian west. Before it was known that some animals engage in homosexual behaviour it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting because 'not even the animals do it'. After it was discovered that some animals have homosexual encounters it was argued that humans who did so were disgusting 'because they were doing something animals do'. My guess is that if one starts from one's own disgust (or lack of disgust) at homosexuality, one finds evidence to support one's case everywhere--even in the Bible.

Thank you. 

You should thank him for demonstrating an ability to engage in the discussion in a way that allows for respectful dialogue.
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