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Offline MichaelofSN

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How does God have knowledge?
« on: June 10, 2018, 12:41:58 PM »
How does god justify his beliefs?  It seems to me like God's knowledge is contingent on those states of affairs, external to him, that make the proposition true.  How can that be the case for a "necessary" being?

Offline Onesimus

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 01:50:35 PM »
Wrong starting point.    You already presuppose to make God a being among beings with empirical knowledge gained from external stimuli similar to yours. 

Instead of thinking of God as an external looking out at events from above/outside of those events ....you might...as an excercise in philosophy alone... think of God as “looking out” from within all things - while those things are dependent upon God for being.   He is not those things, but those things are saturated with His “energy” and He is immediately aware of those things He interpenetrates.   If one thinks about in this manner....again as an example...Knowledge of all things comes from immediate and timeless penetration of created things....not from external observation and learning of creation as an external object.

I’m not giving you theological doctrine....I’m giving you a way to reconsider how you presuppose God and knowledge to be related.   Your starting point is already determining your conclusions.


Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 02:03:02 PM »
Wrong starting point.    You already presuppose to make God a being among beings with empirical knowledge gained from external stimuli similar to yours. 

Instead of thinking of God as an external looking out at events from above/outside of those events ....you might...as an excercise in philosophy alone... think of God as “looking out” from within all things - while those things are dependent upon God for being.   He is not those things, but those things are saturated with His “energy” and He is immediately aware of those things He interpenetrates.   If one thinks about in this manner....again as an example...Knowledge of all things comes from immediate and timeless penetration of created things....not from external observation and learning of creation as an external object.

I’m not giving you theological doctrine....I’m giving you a way to reconsider how you presuppose God and knowledge to be related.   Your starting point is already determining your conclusions.

I understand Palamite panentheism.  I'm asking a different question.  Presumably God has knowledge.  What justifies those true beliefs of his?

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2018, 04:31:26 PM »
God has knowledge because He is a being with a mind and full faculties of observation and understanding, and he exists irrespective of time and space constraints. He does not need a physical brain in order to think, just as an angel or a ghost does not need one.

Here is an interesting thought about knowledge, its power, and omniscience: It's true that God knows everything, just as it's true that God is immortal. Many people yearn for knowledge and wish they knew everything, or at least immediately everything relevant to them. They say "knowledge is power". But recently I realized that knowledge can be a gigantic weakness and harmful to oneself, and that being protected from knowing certain things can be a major blessing. I went to a boarding school for a year that had a disciplinary committee that included four students elected to it, including a semi-girlfriend who was in all my classes and wasn't a boarder. I thought that the students only participated when it came to expulsions, but 20 years later I learned that they secretly read every report and complaint on the boarding students' lives and were responsible for assigning punishments. It would have been constantly humiliating to for me to know that at the time as a 15 year old. The lack of knowledge kept the situation from bothering me at all. Sometimes one is better off not knowing things, and it can be a strong shield.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Onesimus

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2018, 05:26:13 PM »
He does not “have”knowledge.  He is the source of all true knowledge for the reason previously discussed. 

I’m not sure how it is you are using the word “beliefs” with respect to God.   You’d have to tease that out a little.   

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 01:28:14 PM »
God has knowledge because He is a being with a mind and full faculties of observation and understanding, and he exists irrespective of time and space constraints. He does not need a physical brain in order to think, just as an angel or a ghost does not need one.

Here is an interesting thought about knowledge, its power, and omniscience: It's true that God knows everything, just as it's true that God is immortal. Many people yearn for knowledge and wish they knew everything, or at least immediately everything relevant to them. They say "knowledge is power". But recently I realized that knowledge can be a gigantic weakness and harmful to oneself, and that being protected from knowing certain things can be a major blessing. I went to a boarding school for a year that had a disciplinary committee that included four students elected to it, including a semi-girlfriend who was in all my classes and wasn't a boarder. I thought that the students only participated when it came to expulsions, but 20 years later I learned that they secretly read every report and complaint on the boarding students' lives and were responsible for assigning punishments. It would have been constantly humiliating to for me to know that at the time as a 15 year old. The lack of knowledge kept the situation from bothering me at all. Sometimes one is better off not knowing things, and it can be a strong shield.

God does not know everything.  There are some propositions he does not know.  For instance, he does not know the truth value of the proposition "I want to sin".  It's complicated, but the "I" here connotative of perspectives.  If I've had my leg sawed off without pain killers in the past, and I'm currently watching you have yours sawed off without pain killers... I can only have knowledge of your perspective in an analogical sense.  In the proposition, "I know what that's like" (having one's leg sawed off without painkillers), the emphasis is on "like" because you cannot know from the subject's perspective.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 01:36:05 PM »
He does not “have”knowledge.  He is the source of all true knowledge for the reason previously discussed. 

I’m not sure how it is you are using the word “beliefs” with respect to God.   You’d have to tease that out a little.

I understand belief to be the subject holding a positive attitude towards the given proposition.  "The red ball is on the table" <- this is a proposition to which I subscribe.  The reason I subscribe to this proposition being true is because of those states of affairs external to me that are causal to my belief.  In this sense, we would say I can know the red ball is on the table because I have justification for the belief being true.

Putting knowledge in God's nature is going to be a problem.  If God prescribes knowledge (being the source), and some knowledge can be harmful (like the previous poster was claiming)... that's going to be a problem for the all-good attribute we'd want to ascribe to God.  It's also going to present the issue of me "having" God.  Surely you don't want to say that I "have" God.  What do you think knowledge is, Onesimus?

Offline Tzimis

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 01:58:04 PM »
God has knowledge because He is a being with a mind and full faculties of observation and understanding, and he exists irrespective of time and space constraints. He does not need a physical brain in order to think, just as an angel or a ghost does not need one.

Here is an interesting thought about knowledge, its power, and omniscience: It's true that God knows everything, just as it's true that God is immortal. Many people yearn for knowledge and wish they knew everything, or at least immediately everything relevant to them. They say "knowledge is power". But recently I realized that knowledge can be a gigantic weakness and harmful to oneself, and that being protected from knowing certain things can be a major blessing. I went to a boarding school for a year that had a disciplinary committee that included four students elected to it, including a semi-girlfriend who was in all my classes and wasn't a boarder. I thought that the students only participated when it came to expulsions, but 20 years later I learned that they secretly read every report and complaint on the boarding students' lives and were responsible for assigning punishments. It would have been constantly humiliating to for me to know that at the time as a 15 year old. The lack of knowledge kept the situation from bothering me at all. Sometimes one is better off not knowing things, and it can be a strong shield.

God does not know everything.  There are some propositions he does not know.  For instance, he does not know the truth value of the proposition "I want to sin".  It's complicated, but the "I" here connotative of perspectives.  If I've had my leg sawed off without pain killers in the past, and I'm currently watching you have yours sawed off without pain killers... I can only have knowledge of your perspective in an analogical sense.  In the proposition, "I know what that's like" (having one's leg sawed off without painkillers), the emphasis is on "like" because you cannot know from the subject's perspective.
There are two ways of gaining knowledge. Observation and praxis.  I can watch you suffer and know certain things from your suffering that I wouldn't repeat. Simply because I observed you suffering. I wouldnt want that pain to come to me. If I observed you jumping off a bridge.  Why would I want to repeat a mistake if I already gained the knowledge of its circumstance.  That would mean I haven't gained knowledge.  Since i would be repeating your mistake.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 02:20:36 PM »
He does not “have”knowledge.  He is the source of all true knowledge for the reason previously discussed. 

I’m not sure how it is you are using the word “beliefs” with respect to God.   You’d have to tease that out a little.

I understand belief to be the subject holding a positive attitude towards the given proposition.  "The red ball is on the table" <- this is a proposition to which I subscribe.  The reason I subscribe to this proposition being true is because of those states of affairs external to me that are causal to my belief.  In this sense, we would say I can know the red ball is on the table because I have justification for the belief being true.

Putting knowledge in God's nature is going to be a problem.  If God prescribes knowledge (being the source), and some knowledge can be harmful (like the previous poster was claiming)... that's going to be a problem for the all-good attribute we'd want to ascribe to God.  It's also going to present the issue of me "having" God.  Surely you don't want to say that I "have" God.  What do you think knowledge is, Onesimus?
Knowledge isn't substance.  Substance is observable through the senses. Knowlege is a computation from various sources that the mind makes understandable through discernment. All knowledge really is, is truth.


Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 03:42:58 PM »
God has knowledge because He is a being with a mind and full faculties of observation and understanding, and he exists irrespective of time and space constraints. He does not need a physical brain in order to think, just as an angel or a ghost does not need one.

Here is an interesting thought about knowledge, its power, and omniscience: It's true that God knows everything, just as it's true that God is immortal. Many people yearn for knowledge and wish they knew everything, or at least immediately everything relevant to them. They say "knowledge is power". But recently I realized that knowledge can be a gigantic weakness and harmful to oneself, and that being protected from knowing certain things can be a major blessing. I went to a boarding school for a year that had a disciplinary committee that included four students elected to it, including a semi-girlfriend who was in all my classes and wasn't a boarder. I thought that the students only participated when it came to expulsions, but 20 years later I learned that they secretly read every report and complaint on the boarding students' lives and were responsible for assigning punishments. It would have been constantly humiliating to for me to know that at the time as a 15 year old. The lack of knowledge kept the situation from bothering me at all. Sometimes one is better off not knowing things, and it can be a strong shield.

God does not know everything.  There are some propositions he does not know.  For instance, he does not know the truth value of the proposition "I want to sin".  It's complicated, but the "I" here connotative of perspectives.  If I've had my leg sawed off without pain killers in the past, and I'm currently watching you have yours sawed off without pain killers... I can only have knowledge of your perspective in an analogical sense.  In the proposition, "I know what that's like" (having one's leg sawed off without painkillers), the emphasis is on "like" because you cannot know from the subject's perspective.
There are two ways of gaining knowledge. Observation and praxis.  I can watch you suffer and know certain things from your suffering that I wouldn't repeat. Simply because I observed you suffering. I wouldnt want that pain to come to me. If I observed you jumping off a bridge.  Why would I want to repeat a mistake if I already gained the knowledge of its circumstance.  That would mean I haven't gained knowledge.  Since i would be repeating your mistake.

Your theory of knowledge is incomplete because it doesn't account for a priori knowledge, which is not gained from experience.  You have to have a theory that includes rationalist sources of knowledge.  Especially if you intend to remain a theist.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 03:44:29 PM »
He does not “have”knowledge.  He is the source of all true knowledge for the reason previously discussed. 

I’m not sure how it is you are using the word “beliefs” with respect to God.   You’d have to tease that out a little.

I understand belief to be the subject holding a positive attitude towards the given proposition.  "The red ball is on the table" <- this is a proposition to which I subscribe.  The reason I subscribe to this proposition being true is because of those states of affairs external to me that are causal to my belief.  In this sense, we would say I can know the red ball is on the table because I have justification for the belief being true.

Putting knowledge in God's nature is going to be a problem.  If God prescribes knowledge (being the source), and some knowledge can be harmful (like the previous poster was claiming)... that's going to be a problem for the all-good attribute we'd want to ascribe to God.  It's also going to present the issue of me "having" God.  Surely you don't want to say that I "have" God.  What do you think knowledge is, Onesimus?
Knowledge isn't substance.  Substance is observable through the senses. Knowlege is a computation from various sources that the mind makes understandable through discernment. All knowledge really is, is truth.

So your reductive account of knowledge is that it is synonymous with truth?  It doesn't include the necessary constitutive element of belief?  I'd like to see you defend that.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 03:55:08 PM »
God has knowledge because He is a being with a mind and full faculties of observation and understanding, and he exists irrespective of time and space constraints. He does not need a physical brain in order to think, just as an angel or a ghost does not need one.

Here is an interesting thought about knowledge, its power, and omniscience: It's true that God knows everything, just as it's true that God is immortal. Many people yearn for knowledge and wish they knew everything, or at least immediately everything relevant to them. They say "knowledge is power". But recently I realized that knowledge can be a gigantic weakness and harmful to oneself, and that being protected from knowing certain things can be a major blessing. I went to a boarding school for a year that had a disciplinary committee that included four students elected to it, including a semi-girlfriend who was in all my classes and wasn't a boarder. I thought that the students only participated when it came to expulsions, but 20 years later I learned that they secretly read every report and complaint on the boarding students' lives and were responsible for assigning punishments. It would have been constantly humiliating to for me to know that at the time as a 15 year old. The lack of knowledge kept the situation from bothering me at all. Sometimes one is better off not knowing things, and it can be a strong shield.

God does not know everything.  There are some propositions he does not know.  For instance, he does not know the truth value of the proposition "I want to sin".  It's complicated, but the "I" here connotative of perspectives.  If I've had my leg sawed off without pain killers in the past, and I'm currently watching you have yours sawed off without pain killers... I can only have knowledge of your perspective in an analogical sense.  In the proposition, "I know what that's like" (having one's leg sawed off without painkillers), the emphasis is on "like" because you cannot know from the subject's perspective.
There are two ways of gaining knowledge. Observation and praxis.  I can watch you suffer and know certain things from your suffering that I wouldn't repeat. Simply because I observed you suffering. I wouldnt want that pain to come to me. If I observed you jumping off a bridge.  Why would I want to repeat a mistake if I already gained the knowledge of its circumstance.  That would mean I haven't gained knowledge.  Since i would be repeating your mistake.

Your theory of knowledge is incomplete because it doesn't account for a priori knowledge, which is not gained from experience.  You have to have a theory that includes rationalist sources of knowledge.  Especially if you intend to remain a theist.
Not really. Omniscience is something man doesn't possess. Being able to see the future before it happens.  Is a quality of god. So it is a rather simple problem to solve.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 03:57:23 PM »
God has knowledge because He is a being with a mind and full faculties of observation and understanding, and he exists irrespective of time and space constraints. He does not need a physical brain in order to think, just as an angel or a ghost does not need one.

Here is an interesting thought about knowledge, its power, and omniscience: It's true that God knows everything, just as it's true that God is immortal. Many people yearn for knowledge and wish they knew everything, or at least immediately everything relevant to them. They say "knowledge is power". But recently I realized that knowledge can be a gigantic weakness and harmful to oneself, and that being protected from knowing certain things can be a major blessing. I went to a boarding school for a year that had a disciplinary committee that included four students elected to it, including a semi-girlfriend who was in all my classes and wasn't a boarder. I thought that the students only participated when it came to expulsions, but 20 years later I learned that they secretly read every report and complaint on the boarding students' lives and were responsible for assigning punishments. It would have been constantly humiliating to for me to know that at the time as a 15 year old. The lack of knowledge kept the situation from bothering me at all. Sometimes one is better off not knowing things, and it can be a strong shield.

God does not know everything.  There are some propositions he does not know.  For instance, he does not know the truth value of the proposition "I want to sin".  It's complicated, but the "I" here connotative of perspectives.  If I've had my leg sawed off without pain killers in the past, and I'm currently watching you have yours sawed off without pain killers... I can only have knowledge of your perspective in an analogical sense.  In the proposition, "I know what that's like" (having one's leg sawed off without painkillers), the emphasis is on "like" because you cannot know from the subject's perspective.
There are two ways of gaining knowledge. Observation and praxis.  I can watch you suffer and know certain things from your suffering that I wouldn't repeat. Simply because I observed you suffering. I wouldnt want that pain to come to me. If I observed you jumping off a bridge.  Why would I want to repeat a mistake if I already gained the knowledge of its circumstance.  That would mean I haven't gained knowledge.  Since i would be repeating your mistake.

Your theory of knowledge is incomplete because it doesn't account for a priori knowledge, which is not gained from experience.  You have to have a theory that includes rationalist sources of knowledge.  Especially if you intend to remain a theist.
Not really. Omniscience is something man doesn't possess. Being able to see the future before it happens.  Is a quality of god. So it is a rather simple problem to solve.

So you're saying that a theory of knowledge couldn't also apply to God?

Offline Tzimis

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 03:58:23 PM »
He does not “have”knowledge.  He is the source of all true knowledge for the reason previously discussed. 

I’m not sure how it is you are using the word “beliefs” with respect to God.   You’d have to tease that out a little.

I understand belief to be the subject holding a positive attitude towards the given proposition.  "The red ball is on the table" <- this is a proposition to which I subscribe.  The reason I subscribe to this proposition being true is because of those states of affairs external to me that are causal to my belief.  In this sense, we would say I can know the red ball is on the table because I have justification for the belief being true.

Putting knowledge in God's nature is going to be a problem.  If God prescribes knowledge (being the source), and some knowledge can be harmful (like the previous poster was claiming)... that's going to be a problem for the all-good attribute we'd want to ascribe to God.  It's also going to present the issue of me "having" God.  Surely you don't want to say that I "have" God.  What do you think knowledge is, Onesimus?
Knowledge isn't substance.  Substance is observable through the senses. Knowlege is a computation from various sources that the mind makes understandable through discernment. All knowledge really is, is truth.

So your reductive account of knowledge is that it is synonymous with truth?  It doesn't include the necessary constitutive element of belief?  I'd like to see you defend that.
Belief is nothing more than hope. If i were to see Christ in front of me right now. Would I need belief or hope? No
As both are forfilled in the actual account.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2018, 03:59:20 PM »
God has knowledge because He is a being with a mind and full faculties of observation and understanding, and he exists irrespective of time and space constraints. He does not need a physical brain in order to think, just as an angel or a ghost does not need one.

Here is an interesting thought about knowledge, its power, and omniscience: It's true that God knows everything, just as it's true that God is immortal. Many people yearn for knowledge and wish they knew everything, or at least immediately everything relevant to them. They say "knowledge is power". But recently I realized that knowledge can be a gigantic weakness and harmful to oneself, and that being protected from knowing certain things can be a major blessing. I went to a boarding school for a year that had a disciplinary committee that included four students elected to it, including a semi-girlfriend who was in all my classes and wasn't a boarder. I thought that the students only participated when it came to expulsions, but 20 years later I learned that they secretly read every report and complaint on the boarding students' lives and were responsible for assigning punishments. It would have been constantly humiliating to for me to know that at the time as a 15 year old. The lack of knowledge kept the situation from bothering me at all. Sometimes one is better off not knowing things, and it can be a strong shield.

God does not know everything.  There are some propositions he does not know.  For instance, he does not know the truth value of the proposition "I want to sin".  It's complicated, but the "I" here connotative of perspectives.  If I've had my leg sawed off without pain killers in the past, and I'm currently watching you have yours sawed off without pain killers... I can only have knowledge of your perspective in an analogical sense.  In the proposition, "I know what that's like" (having one's leg sawed off without painkillers), the emphasis is on "like" because you cannot know from the subject's perspective.
There are two ways of gaining knowledge. Observation and praxis.  I can watch you suffer and know certain things from your suffering that I wouldn't repeat. Simply because I observed you suffering. I wouldnt want that pain to come to me. If I observed you jumping off a bridge.  Why would I want to repeat a mistake if I already gained the knowledge of its circumstance.  That would mean I haven't gained knowledge.  Since i would be repeating your mistake.

Your theory of knowledge is incomplete because it doesn't account for a priori knowledge, which is not gained from experience.  You have to have a theory that includes rationalist sources of knowledge.  Especially if you intend to remain a theist.
Not really. Omniscience is something man doesn't possess. Being able to see the future before it happens.  Is a quality of god. So it is a rather simple problem to solve.

So you're saying that a theory of knowledge couldn't also apply to God?
Correct. There is just truth.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 04:02:52 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2018, 04:17:09 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?
If you feel that strongly about it and your inter being agrees. Than it is so.
If your inter being is in turmoil.  It could be a delusion.  The conscience is set up in a way to convict you when your hope is wrong.

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2018, 04:42:43 PM »
We as humans cannot fathom -how- God's knowledge works....why try to shove it into theories and methods made by man?
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2018, 05:09:12 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?
If you feel that strongly about it and your inter being agrees. Than it is so.
If your inter being is in turmoil.  It could be a delusion.  The conscience is set up in a way to convict you when your hope is wrong.

How do you distinguish between the two?

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 05:10:02 PM »
We as humans cannot fathom -how- God's knowledge works....why try to shove it into theories and methods made by man?

I don't know why the Eastern Orthodox Church tries to 'shove it into theories and methods made by man'.  Why do they say God is all-knowing... if they can't know?

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 06:08:52 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?
If you feel that strongly about it and your inter being agrees. Than it is so.
If your inter being is in turmoil.  It could be a delusion.  The conscience is set up in a way to convict you when your hope is wrong.

How do you distinguish between the two?
It has to do with willing in general.  As st maximos states.  There is a genomic will and a natural will. All genomic means in Greek is opinionated. Once you have an opinion that is contrary to the natural will. One will have opposition to what is natural.

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2018, 06:32:32 PM »
We as humans cannot fathom -how- God's knowledge works....why try to shove it into theories and methods made by man?

I don't know why the Eastern Orthodox Church tries to 'shove it into theories and methods made by man'.  Why do they say God is all-knowing... if they can't know?

if we believe God is all knowing, does that mean we have to understand -how-?
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2018, 07:25:15 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

According to who? 

This is not what pistis means.   “Belief” is one of the possible translations of pistis, but the definition you are putting into my mouth is not mine.  your impression of pistis as “noting more than hope” is not correct.   What is your source for this definition?

I can help clarify Orthodoxy in this regard only when I’m not placed into a Procrustean bed.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 07:30:18 PM by Onesimus »

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2018, 09:23:48 PM »
Belief is nothing more than hope. If i were to see Christ in front of me right now. Would I need belief or hope? No


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Offline Onesimus

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2018, 09:34:54 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

According to who? 

This is not what pistis means.   “Belief” is one of the possible translations of pistis, but the definition you are putting into my mouth is not mine.  your impression of pistis as “noting more than hope” is not correct.   What is your source for this definition?

I can help clarify Orthodoxy in this regard only when I’m not placed into a Procrustean bed.
Nvrmnd.   I missed the post you were responding to here.   

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2018, 11:59:03 AM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?
If you feel that strongly about it and your inter being agrees. Than it is so.
If your inter being is in turmoil.  It could be a delusion.  The conscience is set up in a way to convict you when your hope is wrong.

How do you distinguish between the two?
It has to do with willing in general.  As st maximos states.  There is a genomic will and a natural will. All genomic means in Greek is opinionated. Once you have an opinion that is contrary to the natural will. One will have opposition to what is natural.

That's not really an answer to my question.  I'm asking how you know it is not a delusion.

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2018, 12:02:53 PM »
Wrong starting point.    You already presuppose to make God a being among beings with empirical knowledge gained from external stimuli similar to yours. 

Instead of thinking of God as an external looking out at events from above/outside of those events ....you might...as an excercise in philosophy alone... think of God as “looking out” from within all things - while those things are dependent upon God for being.   He is not those things, but those things are saturated with His “energy” and He is immediately aware of those things He interpenetrates.   If one thinks about in this manner....again as an example...Knowledge of all things comes from immediate and timeless penetration of created things....not from external observation and learning of creation as an external object.

I’m not giving you theological doctrine....I’m giving you a way to reconsider how you presuppose God and knowledge to be related.   Your starting point is already determining your conclusions.
Good post.

What theology books have you been reading lately?
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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2018, 12:04:50 PM »
We as humans cannot fathom -how- God's knowledge works....why try to shove it into theories and methods made by man?

I don't know why the Eastern Orthodox Church tries to 'shove it into theories and methods made by man'.  Why do they say God is all-knowing... if they can't know?

if we believe God is all knowing, does that mean we have to understand -how-?

I can offer reasons for the beliefs I hold, as I imagine you can as well.  There are beliefs I hold which I cannot explain the how of it, but I still hold that belief in virtue of some other reason that is sufficient for my positive epistemic attitude towards the proposition.  An example I'm just pulling out at random here would be something like... I believe maglev trains work safely.  I can't give you the how of it, but there is a fact of the matter which I can discover.  The problem I see for the Christian here is that there may be a fact of the matter about how God can know a thing or justify a belief, but we cannot find out what the facts are about it.  There is also the problem of consequence here.  My belief in the safe operation of maglev trains isn't nearly as important or as consequential as the belief on which eternity turns.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:06:42 PM by MichaelofSN »

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2018, 12:42:06 PM »
We as humans cannot fathom -how- God's knowledge works....why try to shove it into theories and methods made by man?

I don't know why the Eastern Orthodox Church tries to 'shove it into theories and methods made by man'.  Why do they say God is all-knowing... if they can't know?

if we believe God is all knowing, does that mean we have to understand -how-?

I can offer reasons for the beliefs I hold, as I imagine you can as well.  There are beliefs I hold which I cannot explain the how of it, but I still hold that belief in virtue of some other reason that is sufficient for my positive epistemic attitude towards the proposition.  An example I'm just pulling out at random here would be something like... I believe maglev trains work safely.  I can't give you the how of it, but there is a fact of the matter which I can discover.  The problem I see for the Christian here is that there may be a fact of the matter about how God can know a thing or justify a belief, but we cannot find out what the facts are about it.  There is also the problem of consequence here.  My belief in the safe operation of maglev trains isn't nearly as important or as consequential as the belief on which eternity turns.


But God surpasses our human ability to slice and dice Him (and how he works and functions and knows, and all of that stuff) into logic our human brains can understand.

He just -is- all knowing....we do not have to be able to know how he is all knowing and how his all knowing-ness works.....for it to be true.
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Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2018, 12:50:36 PM »
We as humans cannot fathom -how- God's knowledge works....why try to shove it into theories and methods made by man?

I don't know why the Eastern Orthodox Church tries to 'shove it into theories and methods made by man'.  Why do they say God is all-knowing... if they can't know?

if we believe God is all knowing, does that mean we have to understand -how-?

I can offer reasons for the beliefs I hold, as I imagine you can as well.  There are beliefs I hold which I cannot explain the how of it, but I still hold that belief in virtue of some other reason that is sufficient for my positive epistemic attitude towards the proposition.  An example I'm just pulling out at random here would be something like... I believe maglev trains work safely.  I can't give you the how of it, but there is a fact of the matter which I can discover.  The problem I see for the Christian here is that there may be a fact of the matter about how God can know a thing or justify a belief, but we cannot find out what the facts are about it.  There is also the problem of consequence here.  My belief in the safe operation of maglev trains isn't nearly as important or as consequential as the belief on which eternity turns.


But God surpasses our human ability to slice and dice Him (and how he works and functions and knows, and all of that stuff) into logic our human brains can understand.

He just -is- all knowing....we do not have to be able to know how he is all knowing and how his all knowing-ness works.....for it to be true.

That last sentence begs the question.  The "He just -is- all knowing" proposition needs demonstration of some kind.  There needs to be a reason for the belief that God is all knowing.

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2018, 01:43:02 PM »
That last sentence begs the question.  The "He just -is- all knowing" proposition needs demonstration of some kind.  There needs to be a reason for the belief that God is all knowing.

Your theory of knowledge is incomplete because it doesn't account for a priori knowledge, which is not gained from experience.
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Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 04:44:01 PM »
That last sentence begs the question.  The "He just -is- all knowing" proposition needs demonstration of some kind.  There needs to be a reason for the belief that God is all knowing.

Your theory of knowledge is incomplete because it doesn't account for a priori knowledge, which is not gained from experience.

What's the problem here?  You can offer reasons for the belief that are gleaned merely from logical deductions.  That's what a priori knowledge is.

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 04:58:47 PM »
Then you should know that God's omniscience is predicated by the idea of God. You might as well ask someone to demonstrate that bodies take up space, or that 1+3=4.

Your other questions about God's omniscience seem pretty well exhausted by St Thomas Aquinas, so I recommend going there first.
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Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 05:17:26 PM »
Then you should know that God's omniscience is predicated by the idea of God. You might as well ask someone to demonstrate that bodies take up space, or that 1+3=4.

Your other questions about God's omniscience seem pretty well exhausted by St Thomas Aquinas, so I recommend going there first.

That just kicks the can down the road.  Why does the idea of god necessarily entail an omniscient property?  Especially if we can demonstrate that he cannot know the truth value of all propositions and there is no account of what sense God has knowledge.  The former is definitionally a rebutting defeater for God's omniscience.  The latter has never been demonstrated.

So why accept the hypothesis that God has knowledge at all?  Let alone his having the omniscience property.

I'm reading Sullivan's commentary on Acquinas' PSR right now.  It's crap.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 05:18:22 PM by MichaelofSN »

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 05:28:30 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?
If you feel that strongly about it and your inter being agrees. Than it is so.
If your inter being is in turmoil.  It could be a delusion.  The conscience is set up in a way to convict you when your hope is wrong.

How do you distinguish between the two?
It has to do with willing in general.  As st maximos states.  There is a genomic will and a natural will. All genomic means in Greek is opinionated. Once you have an opinion that is contrary to the natural will. One will have opposition to what is natural.

That's not really an answer to my question.  I'm asking how you know it is not a delusion.
I stated that an opinion that lines up with your nature will is always correct. 

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2018, 05:39:23 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?
If you feel that strongly about it and your inter being agrees. Than it is so.
If your inter being is in turmoil.  It could be a delusion.  The conscience is set up in a way to convict you when your hope is wrong.

How do you distinguish between the two?
It has to do with willing in general.  As st maximos states.  There is a genomic will and a natural will. All genomic means in Greek is opinionated. Once you have an opinion that is contrary to the natural will. One will have opposition to what is natural.

That's not really an answer to my question.  I'm asking how you know it is not a delusion.
I stated that an opinion that lines up with your nature will is always correct.

Again, that's not an answer to my question.  How do you know that that's the case?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2018, 05:50:31 PM »
Then you should know that God's omniscience is predicated by the idea of God. You might as well ask someone to demonstrate that bodies take up space, or that 1+3=4.

Your other questions about God's omniscience seem pretty well exhausted by St Thomas Aquinas, so I recommend going there first.

That just kicks the can down the road.  Why does the idea of god necessarily entail an omniscient property?  Especially if we can demonstrate that he cannot know the truth value of all propositions and there is no account of what sense God has knowledge.  The former is definitionally a rebutting defeater for God's omniscience.

If God is omniscient, then He also knows the truth value of all propositions, doesn't He? Any complete and perfect being would, by definition, be omniscient since a lack of knowledge is an imperfection.

A god that has imperfections is more like a Greco-Roman deity than God in the "capital G" sense.
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Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2018, 06:00:34 PM »
Then you should know that God's omniscience is predicated by the idea of God. You might as well ask someone to demonstrate that bodies take up space, or that 1+3=4.

Your other questions about God's omniscience seem pretty well exhausted by St Thomas Aquinas, so I recommend going there first.

That just kicks the can down the road.  Why does the idea of god necessarily entail an omniscient property?  Especially if we can demonstrate that he cannot know the truth value of all propositions and there is no account of what sense God has knowledge.  The former is definitionally a rebutting defeater for God's omniscience.

If God is omniscient, then He also knows the truth value of all propositions, doesn't He? Any complete and perfect being would, by definition, be omniscient since a lack of knowledge is an imperfection.

A god that has imperfections is more like a Greco-Roman deity than God in the "capital G" sense.

The answer is no, he doesn't know the truth value of all propositions.  I explained this earlier in the thread.

Why think God is omniscient, Volnutt?

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2018, 06:17:28 PM »
Then you should know that God's omniscience is predicated by the idea of God. You might as well ask someone to demonstrate that bodies take up space, or that 1+3=4.

Your other questions about God's omniscience seem pretty well exhausted by St Thomas Aquinas, so I recommend going there first.

That just kicks the can down the road.  Why does the idea of god necessarily entail an omniscient property?  Especially if we can demonstrate that he cannot know the truth value of all propositions and there is no account of what sense God has knowledge.  The former is definitionally a rebutting defeater for God's omniscience.

If God is omniscient, then He also knows the truth value of all propositions, doesn't He? Any complete and perfect being would, by definition, be omniscient since a lack of knowledge is an imperfection.

A god that has imperfections is more like a Greco-Roman deity than God in the "capital G" sense.

The answer is no, he doesn't know the truth value of all propositions.  I explained this earlier in the thread.

He doesn't directly experience what another being experiences, but He can still know that they're truly experiencing it. If even normal humans can read galvanic skin responses, EKGs, etc. to find out if X person is lying about their feelings, how much more the one who created their brain?

Why think God is omniscient, Volnutt?

Because the idea of a "Supreme Being" that can be ignorant (or absent or weak or a failure or whatever) doesn't make any sense to me. A being like that wouldn't be God, it'd be more like a "godlike alien" out of Star Trek. If God exists at all, then He's omnimax.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 06:18:17 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2018, 06:33:09 PM »
Then you should know that God's omniscience is predicated by the idea of God. You might as well ask someone to demonstrate that bodies take up space, or that 1+3=4.

Your other questions about God's omniscience seem pretty well exhausted by St Thomas Aquinas, so I recommend going there first.

That just kicks the can down the road.  Why does the idea of god necessarily entail an omniscient property?  Especially if we can demonstrate that he cannot know the truth value of all propositions and there is no account of what sense God has knowledge.  The former is definitionally a rebutting defeater for God's omniscience.

If God is omniscient, then He also knows the truth value of all propositions, doesn't He? Any complete and perfect being would, by definition, be omniscient since a lack of knowledge is an imperfection.

A god that has imperfections is more like a Greco-Roman deity than God in the "capital G" sense.

The answer is no, he doesn't know the truth value of all propositions.  I explained this earlier in the thread.

He doesn't directly experience what another being experiences, but He can still know that they're truly experiencing it. If even normal humans can read galvanic skin responses, EKGs, etc. to find out if X person is lying about their feelings, how much more the one who created their brain?

Why think God is omniscient, Volnutt?

Because the idea of a "Supreme Being" that can be ignorant (or absent or weak or a failure or whatever) doesn't make any sense to me. A being like that wouldn't be God, it'd be more like a "godlike alien" out of Star Trek. If God exists at all, then He's omnimax.

Volnutt, I don't know if I'm doing a bad job of explaining things or if you're not understanding me.  If God "doesn't directly experience what another being experiences", then there is some content missing that would justify the true belief that "I know what that's like".  It's a matter of perspective.  What you're offering is a reductive account of mental content through some analysis of the physical properties.  That's physicalism... and not Orthodoxy.

It doesn't follow that because you can't conceive of a less-than-all-powerful [capital G] God, that it is not the case, should such a being exist.  I can offer an argument for atheism on conceivability alone, but you and I would agree that it would be insufficient merely standing on conceptualizations.  Offering an apophatic account of God is not sufficient.

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2018, 07:05:44 PM »
Then you should know that God's omniscience is predicated by the idea of God. You might as well ask someone to demonstrate that bodies take up space, or that 1+3=4.

Your other questions about God's omniscience seem pretty well exhausted by St Thomas Aquinas, so I recommend going there first.

That just kicks the can down the road.  Why does the idea of god necessarily entail an omniscient property?  Especially if we can demonstrate that he cannot know the truth value of all propositions and there is no account of what sense God has knowledge.  The former is definitionally a rebutting defeater for God's omniscience.

If God is omniscient, then He also knows the truth value of all propositions, doesn't He? Any complete and perfect being would, by definition, be omniscient since a lack of knowledge is an imperfection.

A god that has imperfections is more like a Greco-Roman deity than God in the "capital G" sense.

The answer is no, he doesn't know the truth value of all propositions.  I explained this earlier in the thread.

He doesn't directly experience what another being experiences, but He can still know that they're truly experiencing it. If even normal humans can read galvanic skin responses, EKGs, etc. to find out if X person is lying about their feelings, how much more the one who created their brain?

Why think God is omniscient, Volnutt?

Because the idea of a "Supreme Being" that can be ignorant (or absent or weak or a failure or whatever) doesn't make any sense to me. A being like that wouldn't be God, it'd be more like a "godlike alien" out of Star Trek. If God exists at all, then He's omnimax.

Volnutt, I don't know if I'm doing a bad job of explaining things or if you're not understanding me.  If God "doesn't directly experience what another being experiences", then there is some content missing that would justify the true belief that "I know what that's like".

Well, for one thing Orthodoxy has the Incarnation, so God can at least know what many human experiences are like. Creation's communion with God also puts a big question mark on things (maybe there's more permeability between our mind and God's than we know). I don't see why this should be a problem when combined with even a hyperadvanced-but-still-finite being's ability to extrapolate from observation. Why should "I know what that's like" require such an exhaustive reduction to a preposition when the terms involved are so fuzzy to begin with? Are you one of those edgelord types who says things like "Nobody can ever REALLY know another person?"

It doesn't follow that because you can't conceive of a less-than-all-powerful [capital G] God, that it is not the case, should such a being exist.  I can offer an argument for atheism on conceivability alone, but you and I would agree that it would be insufficient merely standing on conceptualizations.  Offering an apophatic account of God is not sufficient.

You asked me why I think God is Omniscient. My response is "He'd better be or He's nothing worth bothering with." Beyond that, I don't see why I need positive reason to believe He is beyond my positive reasons to think that He exists at all. I don't see an ironclad argument that He isn't omniscient, just linguistic wrinkles.
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Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2018, 08:02:01 PM »
Volnutt,

My position is that mental content is not reducible to physical states of affairs.  I'm not sure why you think that's an "edgelord type" of position... when the majority of those who hold it are also theists (this includes surveys of philosophers in the academy and theologians).  The analogy you offered is connotative of physicalism.  That puts you in the same league as atheists.  If you think that the mind is reducible to merely the physical... you're in a world of trouble holding the belief that God also has a mind.

I've also already explained why.  If God's knowledge is propositional, then he's not omniscient.  He can't have all personal knowledge either, because that would violate the principle of identity.  Which means he's left with mere procedural knowledge.  I don't know what it would mean to call a being with only procedural knowledge, and no propositional or personal knowledge, a "person".  If God's personal and propositional knowledge are confined to the experience of Christ, then he's not omniscient.

Your 'answer' to my question about why you think God is omniscient isn't an answer at all.  Your 'throwing in with Jesus' isn't a reason why you choose to do so.  Do you not have an answer for why you believe God is omniscient? 

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2018, 08:38:45 PM »
Volnutt,

My position is that mental content is not reducible to physical states of affairs.  I'm not sure why you think that's an "edgelord type" of position... when the majority of those who hold it are also theists (this includes surveys of philosophers in the academy and theologians).  The analogy you offered is connotative of physicalism.  That puts you in the same league as atheists.  If you think that the mind is reducible to merely the physical... you're in a world of trouble holding the belief that God also has a mind.

I've also already explained why.  If God's knowledge is propositional, then he's not omniscient.  He can't have all personal knowledge either, because that would violate the principle of identity.  Which means he's left with mere procedural knowledge.  I don't know what it would mean to call a being with only procedural knowledge, and no propositional or personal knowledge, a "person".  If God's personal and propositional knowledge are confined to the experience of Christ, then he's not omniscient.

I don't believe all mental content is reducible to physical states. I just believe that there's ways to "get at it" that don't involve becoming the person having that experience. How does God know us? Mystically, all-powerfully, inexplicably, "closer than breathing." I have some ideas of how that might be possible, but they're mere speculation. I don't see why I have the burden of proof to say more beyond that.

Your 'answer' to my question about why you think God is omniscient isn't an answer at all.  Your 'throwing in with Jesus' isn't a reason why you choose to do so.  Do you not have an answer for why you believe God is omniscient?

I believe in God in general and the Christian God in particular. I feel no need to prove His omniscience. If someone can concoct a version of Christianity without omniscience, then I'd hear them out (Open Theism seems kind of weak from what I've seen of it, and I think you'd be too radical even for them), but I'd be skeptical that theirs is really a God worth believing in.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 08:40:38 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 09:00:35 PM »
This thread is a waste of time. The question can only be answered through theosis, not philosophizing.
Wishing to grant pardon for ancient debts, he who cancels the debts of all people came himself and dwelt among those who were estranged from his divine grace; and tearing apart the record of sin, he hears from everyone: Alleluia.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: How does God have knowledge?
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 09:01:46 PM »
According to you...
Belief is nothing more than hope.
Knowledge is truth.

So if I hope something is true... does that mean I have knowledge that the thing in question is true?
If you feel that strongly about it and your inter being agrees. Than it is so.
If your inter being is in turmoil.  It could be a delusion.  The conscience is set up in a way to convict you when your hope is wrong.

How do you distinguish between the two?
It has to do with willing in general.  As st maximos states.  There is a genomic will and a natural will. All genomic means in Greek is opinionated. Once you have an opinion that is contrary to the natural will. One will have opposition to what is natural.

That's not really an answer to my question.  I'm asking how you know it is not a delusion.
I stated that an opinion that lines up with your nature will is always correct.

Again, that's not an answer to my question.  How do you know that that's the case?


I told you earlier that knowledge in nothing more than truth. If one has to make a decision they require knowledge but if one knows the truth one doesn't need knowledge. God doesn't require knowledge. Gaining knowledge isnt a necessity for god. He is all truth.
As far us. God speak to the will of man. When man allows god in. The Holy spirit guides man to all Truth