Author Topic: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy  (Read 3024 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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I also worry about the vulnerable people in the Eastern Orthodox Church which is not helped by those who preach heresy but my responsibility is first to those I affected. I can visit Eastern Orthodox churches but not convert. My beliefs will still be orthodox unless catholic convince me. I won’t actually convert to Catholic Church unless I agree with their beliefs but I will visit their churches. My beliefs are Christian anyway. I do believe Jesus wants one flock and that can’t be done except they be united to the church because we believe in the sacraments. But that does not mean God does not accept other Christians but the goal is to make them one flock in the future. He accepts other Christians the same

Offline mikeforjesus

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« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 02:58:21 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2018, 06:21:21 AM »
If you want life eternal with God you have to love Him and the truth more than anyone or any thing. Whoever does not take His cross Jesus says is unworthy of Him

Are you willing to leave riches ?  Some think you just have to be willing they may be right but to be safe how can you know if you are willing or unwilling until you know God’s will unless you seek Him daily because is it not wrong not to seek to know His will ? We should not put burdens hard to bear on people which we are not able to move which they won’t be able to unless you impart grace to them or you have grace to help them because only God can. As Jesus said for salvation it is impossible with men but with God all things are possible
It may not be necessary but if you still think you must you should probably do so because the more closer you come to God the closer you can find the truth and God can save others by your righteousness as He did with Cornelius
As Jesus said the pure in heart shall see God and I think it is in this life also and those born again Jesus said see the kingdom of God I believe He means now that is they see the truth


Hell is eternal because men are eternally wicked in trying to steal His glory and we can also do so by making ourselves better than God by not submitting to all He says
So Jesus said you will by no means get out of hell until you pay the last penny. That means in so far as you did not eternally steal the glory of God for then you will have to be punished. He is saying you can never get out of hell unless your sin is not eternal and you can give all glory is back to Him up to the last penny. Every unrepentant sinner is guilty of this

The way to life is narrow therefore it is difficult because it is true. It is only difficult as far as you see it is narrow and just. You have to deny yourself that is all that lifts itself against God

I am reading the book by Alexander Schenann on baptism termed water and the Spirit

We see God often used water for new birth such as in genesis the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters when God through His word created the world and Matter and spiritual always was never separated as God wills to redeem matter and spirit as they are not seperated

The way to life is narrow. Few are chosen

I think I found the truth in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I do believe Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who share the same beliefs are also saved but people are responsible for themselves to seek salvation. Hopefully there is no lack of help in churches who have gone astray if there are good pastors or shepherds among them. I think the oriental church is true but it could be Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox. Everyone has to seek the truth himself.
The good thing is the churches sometimes work together and allow each other to experience their tradition

The bible says he who believes and is baptised will be saved

And baptise all in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit
 
So the form of orthodoxy is perfect but we dont know it is necessary

Perhaps God wishes all to be baptised for unity though it may not be necessary until God unites the churches

This does not mean necessarily those baptised outside the church are not saved I think they may be but I can not say I know until I do


Perhaps the thieves and robbers are those who try to also separate you from the church as in this thread of mine called early church fathers on obtaining knowledge outside the church
 but they are also thieves in the church if they stop the seeking of the truth and teach you to judge others
Everyone is a thief every preacher except Jesus
We should also come to the fullness of Him in knowledge I believe the bible says

I am sorry to be a stumbling block but I can not claim to know better than others I have to choose to be orthodox until I learn to be better. Maybe I am not saved until I know the truth and accept others but I cannot teach outside of what I know


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,64574.0.html
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 06:23:18 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2018, 12:01:36 PM »
I am sorry I can not be exclusive to the church I would be sinning. How many lost people there are in the world in their sins and no matter how much I try to reason that I would have no blame I am not sure. I feel to be so fearful is like the man who buried his talent fearing he would lose the faith and that God can not convert others if He wants them in the church

You can be saved as orthodox but I don’t want to see many lost who I could save

I think I am already convinced that God grants the Holy Spirit to those who ask for it and causes the new birth though I know it could be meaning He gives the faith in Himself and the church to be baptised to receive it permanently and not just temporarily to believe but I’m not sure He may give the Holy Spirit to some if He wants to. I believe baptism is a command but I can not take God’s place of judgement to judge all the cases of non baptism I mean even the baptism of others in their own church.
I believe people who are not baptised because there is no more time to can be saved perhaps.
As Abraham was justified before works but he worked while he had time. Also others may be justified who are not convinced if that is possible or some other excuse
I can’t take God’s place and judge

« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:05:42 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2018, 12:16:04 PM »
I am also aware burying ones talent could mean hiding the faith and doubting it because you don’t trust God but I believe the view above of it is more accurate. Trusting God would not lead to your conscience rebuking you. If you can keep the faith and trust God that is better or necessary but I am not able to trust God now
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:18:01 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Αριστοτελης

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2018, 12:27:16 PM »
Friend, are you panicking because you think you have become a heretic according to the judgements of your church?
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2018, 12:39:04 PM »
Friend, are you panicking because you think you have become a heretic according to the judgements of your church?

Yes and also because I doubt my beliefs sometimes if I feel it does not help me live righteous and I am forced to think it is because I don’t partake of the sacraments often which in theory seems necessary reading the bible. Also because I felt I should not cause orthodox to hate Christianity if they think I am against them which some of my actions in the past are bad. I am also panicking because I believe if I am a devout orthodox I will regret it if I find out later I have been stumbling people and also that I have been used by orthodox just to stop others from going to heaven
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:46:04 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2018, 12:46:16 PM »
My poor advice is that you try and set out your issues and doubts in a clear way, so then you can go about dealing with them. But this is my poor advice - you apply it as you see fit. I commented because I know the pain of the type of doubt you seem to me to be experiencing
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2018, 12:48:07 PM »
Also I didn’t see the last part of your reply. Do you have doubts about the hierarchical system of the Church?
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2018, 12:48:47 PM »
My poor advice is that you try and set out your issues and doubts in a clear way, so then you can go about dealing with them. But this is my poor advice - you apply it as you see fit. I commented because I know the pain of the type of doubt you seem to me to be experiencing

Thank you :) I will try to do so. I think it is good advice


Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2018, 12:50:27 PM »
Also I didn’t see the last part of your reply. Do you have doubts about the hierarchical system of the Church?

Well I agree with the church I think but I don’t know if they are true to the early church. I don’t think the early church would have condemned Protestants today. I believe the church was active with power in the early church though signs are only to help people who are already seeking or not a requisite for fair judgement for God knows some people even with signs would not repent

« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:58:57 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2018, 12:51:55 PM »
There are different types of Protestantism as you know. So perhaps you could learn what the early Church thought about this type... and then after sorting that out, then the other type of Protestantism and so on.
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2018, 12:53:00 PM »
Don’t you believe the Church acts in God’s power today?
Edit: if you delete some of your post I look like I am talking to my own thoughts lol
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:55:38 PM by Αριστοτελης »
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2018, 01:03:14 PM »
Don’t you believe the Church acts in God’s power today?
Edit: if you delete some of your post I look like I am talking to my own thoughts lol

I have put back what I said about church being active with power before and added more. I do believe God acts still today but not as much as He did before because it depends on the faithfulness of the people and jesus said when He comes will He really find faith on the earth

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2018, 01:05:50 PM »
I understand
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2018, 01:07:16 PM »
There are different types of Protestantism as you know. So perhaps you could learn what the early Church thought about this type... and then after sorting that out, then the other type of Protestantism and so on.

Thankyou :) that is a good idea

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2018, 01:21:55 PM »
because I believe if I am a devout orthodox I will regret it if I find out later I have been stumbling people and also that I have been used by orthodox just to stop others from going to heaven

That is harsh to say and blaming others instead of myself. I just worried if i was to try to serve God such as by being a monk I would be attacked by the church even if after a long time as you have to fellowship with other monks and I would neither be able to save orthodox or non orthodox and they could even make me lose my salvation as Jesus said the pharisees try to prevent even others from entering the kingdom of God who were going in. If they teach us to do evil. If we follow the wrong stuff and not only take the good stuff

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2018, 10:19:55 PM »
If you were attacked while being a monk, as long as you persevere in love toward those who hate you, how are you keeping people outside of the kingdom? Like St Chrysostomos said: I do not believe in the salvation of one who does not work out the salvation of another. So monks must do some benefit to their neighbour, as they do, and St Antony as we learn in the ‘Life’ by Athanasius did many things for his neighbours.
Arguing for the primacy of the Pope while he is in heresy is like saying to someone who wants to retain their health, "Go to the hospital even though the hospital no longer functions".

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2018, 02:40:09 AM »
If you were attacked while being a monk, as long as you persevere in love toward those who hate you, how are you keeping people outside of the kingdom? Like St Chrysostomos said: I do not believe in the salvation of one who does not work out the salvation of another. So monks must do some benefit to their neighbour, as they do, and St Antony as we learn in the ‘Life’ by Athanasius did many things for his neighbours.

Maybe you are right but not everyone has the strength to live the life of monasticism. It needs wisdom to be fruitful and Jesus gave everyone talents. If you try to do something not your talent you will fail.
The bible says if you can not contend with footmen how the greater. You should always strive to love all but you won’t be able to deal with devilish attacks if you are not faithful in least
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 02:50:37 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2018, 03:09:47 AM »
Also Paul who is full of love said Alexander the copper smith did me much harm. I will call to mind his deeds. However we should not assume others are like him. Some people could be enemies because they feel in some way abandoned from the church. However I suppose if it is a real problem to other church members there should be discipline yet not rejected from church
When Shemei cursed David and those people advised him to take revenge David rebuked them. But he may not have repented till death. Though he did not go to his grave in peace because he deserves punishment if he did repent he could be like the thief next to Christ on the cross who was saved though punished. David said to Solomon to judge him in wisdom

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2018, 08:28:09 AM »
It is as I said before the priests are not God they are either Pharisees or Nicodemus. There is nothing wrong with confession but many people are allowed to take communion without even trying to stop a sin or forgiving. And the priests allow that. Therefore my dad believes if such continues he thinks very very few will be saved.  The priest has to make Christ the centre. They must focus on the gospel. The communion is the complete picture though only God can judge if any lose at all without it but you should only be focused on preaching the gospel. If we do not focus on the gospel very few may be saved perhaps he thinks. But God knows we have deficiencies in understanding and we can not judge. Pope kyrillos probably is a saint but it is not for us to try to respect the saints more than Christ. It seems the saints replace Christ. I know it is hard for priests to be bold to preach the truth because they think they are not respecting the holy fathers who have died so it is understandable so also another reason not to judge but it does not mean it is an excuse not to respond to Christ will. We must try to overcome our deficiencies in understanding.

I don’t want to destroy the church and make people leave it. My dad believes some priests know Protestants are saved but they don’t want others to leave the church as we believe it is the best church like someone competing with other coffee shop. We don’t want people to be scattered but we must preach the gospel.

Among those whom Jesus said many will say we prophesied in Your name but Christ will say He did not know them because they wanted to win people for themselves and not Christ
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 08:34:43 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline WPM

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2018, 12:36:36 PM »
I can't the Christians believe in a man called Jesus is "the Messiah" ... Have some real questions
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

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Offline WPM

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2018, 12:40:02 PM »
Was Jesus Christ "assumed" be Messiah over the centuries or the underlying assumption is false?
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2018, 05:04:36 PM »
Was Jesus Christ "assumed" be Messiah over the centuries or the underlying assumption is false?

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2018, 05:07:15 PM »
Was Jesus Christ "assumed" be Messiah over the centuries or the underlying assumption is false?

I don't understand your sentence

Questions about the identity of Jesus Christ
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2018, 02:14:35 AM »
The below psalm no doubt refers to Jesus Christ because the Jews believe there is no death etc in his reign

Yet the messiah the psalm says God will make Him remembered forever
And He is mentioned as Lord in verse 11. Not just a ruler but someone to be worshipped and the Ten Commandments say you shall only worship God

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/100899/jewish/The-Messianic-Era.htm


Psalm 45  (NKJV)

The Glories of the Messiah and His Bride
To the Chief Musician. Set to [a]“The Lilies.” A Contemplation of the sons of Korah. A Song of Love.

1 My heart is overflowing with a good theme;
I recite my composition concerning the King;
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 You are fairer than the sons of men;
Grace is poured upon Your lips;
Therefore God has blessed You forever.
3 Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One,
With Your glory and Your majesty.
4 And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness;
And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things.
5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies;
The peoples fall under You.
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
8 All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia,
Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad.
9 Kings’ daughters are among Your honorable women;
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.
10 Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
11 So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
12 And the daughter of Tyre will come with a gift;
The rich among the people will seek your favor.
13 The royal daughter is all glorious within the palace;
Her clothing is woven with gold.
14 She shall be brought to the King in robes of many colors;
The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to You.
15 With gladness and rejoicing they shall be brought;
They shall enter the King’s palace.
16 Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
17 I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 02:17:33 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2018, 03:16:24 AM »
Sorry if I made doubt.It is just one prophesy and we do not believe by prophecy alone as even the eunuch did not but because he seeked the truth He found it God using Phillip. Jesus said you can not come to Him unless it is granted by the Father because He said seek and you shall find and all shall be taught by God

Therefore I am making salvation difficult by creating doubt and then it makes sense that because of doubt which people who don’t love the truth they won’t want to seek then it is fulfilled many will seek to enter and will not be able and narrow is the gate and few find it

The bible says when one hears the word the devil may snatch the word because one is not deeply rooted

I mean because of the idea in verse 16 of having children. We know by faith as Christians it refers to those who we know truly belong to Him as children though all are made by Him because they are not just born of flesh but born again of the Spirit

Nonetheless here are a few commentaries

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Having directed his speech to the bride, he now returns to the bridegroom, as may be gathered both from the Hebrew words, which are of the masculine gender; and from the next verse, which unquestionably belongs unto him; yet so that he supposeth the bride to be concerned and partaker with him in the privilege here mentioned, and the children to be common to them both. And therefore this verse and Psalm cannot be understood of Solomon, and his marriage with Pharaoh’s daughter, because he had no children by her, and but very few by all his wives and concubines; and his children were so far from exceeding their parents in the largeness of their dominions, or being made princes in al the earth, as is here said, that they enjoyed but a small part of their father’s dominions, and that with many tribulations, and but for a short time. But this was most truly and fully accomplished in Christ; who instead of his fathers of the Jewish nation; from whom he descended, and by whom he was forsaken and rejected, (which here seems to be implied, and elsewhere is expressly affirmed,) had a numerous posterity of Gentile Christians of all the nations of the earth, which here and elsewhere are called princes and kings, because of their great power with God and with men, because they subdued a very great part of the world to the obedience of Christ, and ruled them in his name and stead.


Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children,.... This is an address, not to the church, the queen, the King's daughter, spoken to and of in the preceding verses, but to the King Messiah himself, who was of the Jewish fathers, according to the flesh, Romans 9:4; and though he was rejected by that people, yet he had children; not only the apostles, who are sometimes so called, whom he set on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, in a doctrinal way, and sent into all the world to preach his Gospel; and which being attended with his mighty power, made them triumphant conquerors everywhere; but also a numerous progeny among the Gentiles: all the elect of God are his children, and he stands in the revelation of the everlasting Father to them, they being given unto him as such; and he being concerned in their adoption, by which they become children, and in their regeneration by which they appear to be such. Here the children of God, scattered abroad in the Gentile world, as distinct from the Jews, seem to be meant;
whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth; these children are princes, being the sons of a King; they look like princes, and have the spirit of such; they are treated as princes, fed, clothed, and attended on as such; and are, as princes, heirs of a kingdom: but then, they are not so originally, they are "made princes"; not by themselves, but by Christ, and who even makes them kings and priests unto God and his father: and that "in all the earth"; not with respect to earthly things: they are not made the princes of this world; but while they are on earth they are translated into the kingdom of Christ, and have a kingdom which never can be moved; and besides, they shall reign with Christ on earth a thousand years: moreover, this may have respect to the several parts of the world where they shall be, even in all parts of the world, especially in the latter day; see Isaiah 43:5.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 03:26:43 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2018, 11:43:04 AM »
Psalm 45:16
16 Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.

Psalm 45:16 refers to the meek who Jesus says shall inherit the earth such as in the below verses

The kings of the earth refer to the saved kings and who are saints because only the saints shall be made princes in the new earth and have glory to bring in it

Solomon says he who rules his heart is better than he who takes a city

Revelations 21:1-2
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelations 21:24
24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 11:56:06 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2018, 09:25:54 AM »
We are happy the gospel is being preached even if it is the church we preach.  My dad was only against not preaching at all. However I believe many baptised believers atleast who trust in Christ are saved if they believe they are following Christ if they may have excuse even all if God thinks they do but they can follow the church to be sure.
I believe I need only confess to God in so far as I need no one else’s help but those who have sins they are not confessing because they are hiding need to confess though confession is helpful and I am willing to partake in church sacraments to change my mind.
However my dad says I don’t have to say whether Protestants are saved or not I can say they may be saved but I don’t know it is only God’s call. Those who are offended are not true Christians. I don’t want to however offend weak Christians they should seek to be stronger in their faith
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:36:38 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2018, 09:38:19 AM »
My dad believes thinks they are saved but only God knows who is saved.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:42:16 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2018, 09:44:31 AM »
Having sins against the church or offending any person or group of persons  in church I believe I must confess to that person or group. Also I believe I should seek advice of spiritual way from priests even if I don’t need it but to test if I do because the bible says I should only need to be taught by Christ as it says no more shall each teach his neighbor know the Lord though others are brethren who can help and only help in so far as they are more devoted to God
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:51:10 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline WPM

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2018, 10:40:52 AM »
like the Gnostics? ..  :)
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2018, 07:57:28 AM »
I don’t know what you mean. If you mean I am gnostic because I believe God accepts people who follow Him without knowing His will definitely being  worried about making stumbling blocks I think He does.
Everyone has to seek God’s will for them even if they should join the church but as the bible says in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him because like Cornelius they seek the truth. And all have to believe in Jesus Christ because if they sought the truth truly they would seek to know the truth. You can know certainly Jesus is God  and that you have to follow Him but can you know certainly you have to follow the church. Perhaps many would want to follow the church if they saw the church coming with power and witness and  heresy was destroyed in church which God has shown them there
Instead they may see God at work through  Christians outside the church in a way to say He does not only save orthodox or catholic

God will witness to all people the truth even if it is orthodoxy that they have to join it if they ask sincerely from Him if they have to join and they follow Him

I believe if people truly believe they are following Christ we should not hinder them turning to God but if they are wrong God will enlighten them definitely for those who believe they are right but those who agree with the form of orthodoxy but do not know completely it is perfect or for them I think He should accept them or witness to them but I can’t speak for God
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:08:53 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #78 on: December 07, 2018, 08:12:39 AM »
Jesus says whoever keeps His commandments God will manifest Himself to them because they do the works not for approval but to seek the truth and they accept what can be accepted
. The meaning of salvation is by faith not of works lest any should boast is that no one can claim he is worthy of salvation. It does not mean works are not necessary as a fruit of living faith after you believe. Works alone won’t bring you faith and those who seek without works will find too but the Cornelius works were the works of God because he was praying to God always meaning everything he did was to seek the truth

I may be twisting it but it is my thoughts
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:27:34 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2018, 08:43:00 AM »
I think I twisted it God manifests Himself only to those who believe who do good deeds as a reward for their deeds. Good deeds don’t cause us to find Him if they have nothing to do with seeking the truth but those who are good would continue doing good even seeking the true faith. The story of Cornelius was that one who was previously good was truly good and did good deeds because he wanted to be saved but he doesn’t find the truth because of his good deeds but he finds it because he is good seeking the truth and his works were a proof that he was seeking the truth

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2018, 09:06:19 AM »
It may be works help find the truth like charity because you are doing it to seek the truth and to strengthen your prayers and God will try to repay your help for people but you still have to be seeking and want the truth and not seek to avoid a cross for it to be easy to believe without a cross like the rich man wanted to. You don’t need to work to find faith but those who work will not have truth hidden from them and it may be easier but they can’t boast only they were worthy because of works because others find the truth without works  if they sought with knowledge unlike Cornelius who added works because he did not know how to seek with knowledge yet 
There is harm that not seeking at all because of trying to only know by works it becomes a stumbling block to finding the truth

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2018, 10:09:04 PM »
you go where you're looking ~ you grow to be like what you think about```

Mike you will have no effect on anyone in whatever parish you choose ~ the effect will be on you if you go to a Orthodox Church ~ you will be more Orthodox in your thinking and it will show ~ the same if you go to a Roman church ```












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Offline WPM

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2018, 10:59:52 PM »
LOL the above is Gnostic...
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2018, 02:38:48 AM »
You had a question ~ who was Jesus Christ ~ that's the answer ~ Jesus is The Christ ~ we knew that from first we met Him ```

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2018, 03:22:55 AM »
He may have meant me again

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2018, 03:23:34 AM »
you go where you're looking ~ you grow to be like what you think about```

Mike you will have no effect on anyone in whatever parish you choose ~ the effect will be on you if you go to a Orthodox Church ~ you will be more Orthodox in your thinking and it will show ~ the same if you go to a Roman church ```












"Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."

Thank you Sethrak :) I decided it is wrong to convert unless I believe as they do. Because I can not help people without seeking my salvation. I am not already saved and need the church

I am willing to obey the church

I want to seek penance from all priests because mine may not give me any punishment so that it will help me come back to the truth and granted absolution for deceiving people unintentionally that they also possibly may be absolved even if they died

I want to ask priest if I am forbidden to say not only Protestants may be saved but I think they are. If I am forbidden to think they are
But they should accept Catholics
Or reject maybe only Protestants who are not baptised and don’t see communion in their church as necessary but maybe it has to be in a valid apostolic Church and they should join the Orthodox Church because they can trust our church to care for their salvation and not abuse them and so won’t leave the church. I don’t know how there can be abuse if the child who goes to confession is watched and waited on by parents and the child doesn’t spend time in private with the priest

In every situation I will seek to be obedient to holy synod I will put it before them if it is a matter I think should go to them and if they are not willing I make them responsible for guidance of my confession father which I hope is right but I don’t know
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 03:35:35 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2018, 03:41:33 AM »
But I may not give up my thoughts that I think they may be saved because otherwise I am judging and taking the place of God
It is sad I only think they may be saved and not think they are likely saved but I know I am not allowed to say they are definitely saved that is God’s job
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 03:42:01 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2018, 05:01:13 AM »
I trust in God and faith He gives me than what some people say of the church  I think that Protestants unless they can be sure of the truth that God wills people to preach exclusively orthodox just as they can be sure Jesus is Lord and have proof He is the only way that they are saved if they are following what they believe is necessary some believe in baptism so they baptise some believe they are eating His body and drinking His blood through faith and in talking 
But they are my beliefs I could be wrong and God says but I am right to preach I think it is so and they should not be judged
Judge not that you be not judged
I am willing to take communion and learn more to see if I can be convinced otherwise with peace but I should not make stumbling blocks
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 05:04:50 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2018, 06:26:12 AM »
I can not speak for God but I believe the church may be the best place for salvation. It has the sacraments not that God can not in cases or conditional absolve others. I am reading pope shenouda book commentary on book of revelation and I read other of his books occasionally which I like and I don’t want to bury such treasure or make people forget his words. I don’t want to ignore his words for myself but atleast have something to follow not thinking highly of myself and putting trust in myself even if I could be right

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Re: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2018, 06:47:21 AM »
God will not absolve many people just because they are out of the church unless they are truly following all of Jesus outside of the sacraments then He may or may not absolve them but as I said church in other ways may be best to be saved
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 06:51:31 AM by mikeforjesus »