Author Topic: Returning home from heresy according to what the church may think is heresy  (Read 1809 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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This is a long post but in summary I am asking does the church not absolve me unless I repent of my beliefs and start teaching the church is the only way to salvation? I think atleast they let me go to church and take communion because I may be struggling.

I am willing now to teach that salvation is only in the church now and through the priesthood even though the bible says there is only one Mediator between God and man the Man Christ Jesus. I guess the priest is not a second mediator because God appointed him but why do we believe in other peoples prayers as powerful to save others but our prayers are not acceptable except through Jesus Christ. The priest mediation is only relevant in so far as it agrees with Jesus Judgement. The priest therefore personally has no right to say whether a person deserves forgiveness or not but they are trusted with the Holy Spirit to be able to declare to give assurance that Christ forgave the person and stewards can be either faithful or unfaithful. 
This means you can't go through anyone else who does not go through Jesus and lead to Jesus. I am willing to say only though the church is salvation as Jesus says he who listens not to the church regard him as heathen but the church can err because not everyone judgement is considered sometimes but only certain clergy. It seems to mean if you act in the Holy Spirit the clergy who decide have the ability to say a persons repentance and faith is enough to go to heaven.. but if they are lacking in fellowship with the holy spirit in them they may declare wrong. I guess I will accept the church to have the right to excommunicate and whoever does not believe they are right if they think they are right they can be proud to be christian outside the church or change their ways to join the church. But the eucharist is important or can be seen important to them therefore they may not wish to be separated from the church and this can harm some. They may be excommunicated and feel rejected by God too and this can harm them spiritually.
Therefore it seems to me they should not be excommunicated as Jesus said not to uproot the tares here as this can harm the wheat. The church should always try to help all of them. Paul said not to keep company with a person who walks disorderly so he is ashamed but do not count him as enemy but admonish him as brother. Therefore it seems not keeping company is not the same as excommunication for you still keep little contact but not much so he is ashamed. Excommunication is only for those who clearly are harming the church which it is apparent to all the church. Or maybe some should be excommunicated temporarily as a measure of discipline.

I will accept the priesthood because I want to preserve the faith. I thought maybe I don't need to worry God will preserve it but I think He may end the world if we managed to destroy the church or others outside the church could become lost since our church being strong is a good witness and our health is a blessing also to the world.

But what do you think about these verses. Obviously the church does not claim that the priests who baptise us were crucified for us so I don't see I can say something about that unless the church wants to say we owe them obedience for all they have suffered for us. Paul says his focus was on preaching the gospel either because it is their responsibility to get baptised or because he thinks it would be a distraction for the message and He trusts God would guide them what to do that is if He believes no one will be excused from baptism even those who never heard of it because he also found people who did not have the Holy Spirit and layed His hands on them. It seems it was required then because of the signs the apostles showed by which they could demand obedience and prove their authority. But it does not seem to mean they needed laying on of hands just that Paul chose them for ministry or to ensure they know the apostles are greater than them in the early church and they should not try to compete with. For He addressing His own people knew some of them were not baptised when He said to them "did you not know that as many of us as were baptised into christ jesus were baptised into his death? therefore it seemed to be a public witness that they belong to the Lord. In Exodus we see that whoever is joined to Israel must be circumcised. That is if they want to join. But it does not seem they were not accepted before that. Only if they want to join.

I meant to say before that Paul seems to have taught it if Crispus and Gaius wanted to get baptised or they may have learned from others. The ethiopian eunuch is the one who asked baptism phillip did not preach it as recorded in book of acts but likely he taught it or it was well known.

Paul sometimes worried his service to the jewish christians would not be acceptable so asked for prayers because some of them were not ready to believe gentiles did not need circumcision. It could be so now if the Lord truly accepts other christians and revealed this to our church. Paul also said he suffered from false brethren within the church. I don't mean to be judgemental as I myself have pretended to support church services but I really have a problem with it and speak against it later.

2 Corinthians 11:26
26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

In below passage it seems insisting on rejecting ecumenism without desiring to know if the Lord wills christian unity is unforgivable and paul says not many noble are called. It is okay if you have not been able to believe it. Therefore some clergy if they have pride and not willing to hear may not be saved.I am not saying they have to accept that if they have not been able to believe it and not sure it is the truth.


1 Corinthians 1:10-26 (NKJV)
Sectarianism Is Sin
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.


First I will say I know a priest said in a church I went to once to forget about theology go only to it after you have lived the christian life and this is what Pope Kyrillos VI did. He said prayer is theology.

Also I feel trying to find answers instead of trusting Christ to give me answers when I give Him just reasonable time can stop me from doing any work. But the work of God is more important Jesus said then any work. Jesus said this is the work of God that you believe on Him whom He sent. And also do not labor for the food that perishes but for that which the Son of Man will give you. How can I know if I give God reasonable time? I am guessing just some of the time is enough for God to do something to let me believe

My question is does the church think if I teach protestants will be saved that I will not be saved or can I atleast teach I think they will be saved. Because in both cases I am told by my dad in other words it is God's job to correct them and tell them they have to follow Him because He knows when to call them by some means. Do you think they are trying to reject me to make me change? the bible says below

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

I want to know will God show me and protestants the truth if we ask Him and we should focus on His commandments or we will not be saved. Or do I have to keep seeking the truth and telling others about my doubts which may be a stumbling block to others and go and start telling protestants they must be orthodox or try to prove on orthodox forums they must be orthodox. Because I feel maybe that could cause protestants to be less interested just as an orthodox told me on christianforums.com when I said to protestants orthodoxy is the right way. And I would be harming the message of christianity. But why then does it seem some notable people in church are trying to shame me into following their way and it is affecting me because I am not sure not telling protestants they need to be orthodox will help them be orthodox so I don't trust my dad fully but I do believe him a bit or alot because I believe judging others just distances them from God and may not be how God approached others.

But I felt I am like those disciples who would not just believe in Christ and continue trusting Him even when He said unless you eat My body you can not be saved even when it is offensive.

The purpose of this post is to get help with some new worries or assumptions. I  feel the church appears it could be inspired by the Holy Spirit to reject me in love because they don't think I teach acceptably to the church. There was an event that I don't think it is crazy to think it may have been cancelled because they think I need to be better before they accept me. The event was for a clergy. My dad thinks they did not cancel because of me and the devil makes me assume. . He says whenever the devil tries to make you think evil on others he says don't listen to him. But it seems my dad is telling me this because he wants me not to repent just as he deny when I think others could be upset from me as I explain below

They will sure enough let me stay in the church atleast but I feel worried that I am  condemned to hell for saying protestants can be saved if they think that is not right and why they cancelled the event. I don't think I should say that anymore because perhaps even my dad may not have been sure of himself since he says it is not for me to accept or not accept protestants. And he just thinks they are and we should not judge. The church seems to have the problem with me that I do not teach to judge protestants or only that I conclude definitely they can be saved I can not know. I know Jesus said we have to eat His body and my dad tells me he believes this but we should not judge other christians for not being orthodox but that if God wants He can stop the air to make them orthodox not that He will do that but he will choose to do that but He will make sure they know the truth. I don't know if martin luther didn't care to split the church because if he didn't mean to split the church but just wanted the church to seem perfect as it is to draw people in and so doubted the church and said you can be saved outside the church I seem to be like him. But they really were not perfect because perhaps they did not accept the orthodox then.

I have work to do and I am not sure which path to follow to trust my dad or what I think the church believes.  I wonder if the verse be anxious for nothing but by prayer make supplication and the peace of God which passes all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus applies but then does that mean I do not have to repent of not declaring on orthodox forums that we do not know if protestants will be saved and the church only seems to think we can not know but they don't think at all that it can be probable.


Anyway I was told by my dad not to judge protestants and it is not my duty but if God wants them to be orthodox he will make them join the church. My dad is the one who told me when I thought to examine if catholic church is true maybe because I thought it could be if their numbers are big and because they don't often listen to us atleast I wanted to not seem judgemental to them by being able to tell them why I don't think catholicism is true by examining them. What I want to say is my dad told me there is no point converting because salvation is in Jesus not in the church or atleast in any church that practices baptism and communion. Therefore it seems my dad thinks christians outside the church are saved but he is trying to tell me since I am not convinced even if I am right not to judge. He says it is not his place to judge and believes he is orthodox. He believes everyone has to follow what they think is true and he sees orthodox as most correct not that those in error are definitely saved but it is up to God to judge not him.  So it is very hard to have these orthodox beliefs if I will be persecuted like this and feel I am dishonoring him. If I try to honor him by focusing on my work I have to pretend I have the  same beliefs as him but Jesus wants me to grow in faith and try to make others orthodox.


Ephesians 4:4-5
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

does one faith mean one set of requirements that are accepted as christianity or all must believe the same things? one faith could mean only one church is true but the church may teach some may be saved outside it if they deserve it so they are part of the body

but what do you say about these verses

one body could mean only one body within christianity that follow the same faith.

Also it seems there would always be apostles.As long as there is a church it seems there would be apostles. But revelations says you have test

1 Corinthians 12:27-30
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
 
What I want to say is Jesus did say he who eats My Flesh I will raise Him up at the last day and I feel I am destroying the church by accepting protestants and not leaving it to God and not judging them on forums as my dad says. But now I think I must listen to the church rather than my dad

Anyway what I want to say is I feel I must not say you can go to heaven without the priesthood even if it is true because I don't know. Only when I absolutely know which may be never even if it is true. I may be destroying the church on earth and bring the end of days or harm my or others souls.
I feel I must say on forums we only know salvation is in the church even though my dad says not to attack protestants I will only say so in the forum not to them unless they ask my opinion and I remember my dad says go on defensive and not offensive but he says to say that as my belief not to judge them as not saved unless they join the church

Jesus said he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last days. So by the church rejecting me in love I feel what my dad says is not true that I don't have to try to convert others but focus on preaching to those who are not christian who are seeking the truth. I think what my dad says is not true we must defend the church for it to still exist and people to accept the priesthood and for people who want the fullness to believe in the church to join it and have the sacraments.


I chose by myself after I understood the gospel and believed in it myself not just from trusting my parents and the church my fault being I was not interested in the church from my childhood most people were not and for some reason I only read the old testament and when I read the new testament I did not understand it. I just had experiences with Jesus such as answered prayer and also I used to feel the power of the sign of the cross. That was not enough when I got depressed as I got older and that depression was because of my sins. I needed rebirth. To become like a child again. Regeneration. And that is done by accepting the gospel from your heart. I learned from the website about who is Jesus and why He came and I started having a thirst for reading the new testament but as I read the bible more it seemed I could not trust that faith would be enough to saved but I need good works and the sacraments so I was persuaded either by myself or from church websites and I was further persuaded because I found online people that support me and love me and because I felt I had spiritual experiences of repentance. My own study of the bible led me to the church because I read about the Lord emphasising good deeds and that the way to heaven is not easy as protestantism seems to teach for we have to follow the sermon on the mount and He said not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter and the reason they could not is because they could not do good works. Maybe I thought I could not live pure or have good works outside the church so I joined it. There is just so many churches and not enough support I suppose outside the church. And Jesus did seem to teach that a person needs to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have communion and that only the orthodox church and the catholic church taught you have to do this but the catholic church I thought had some unorthodox beliefs and I am born orthodox so I should try to experience life in it. The orthodox church seemed the only church that was teaching the truth so I thought salvation is only in the orthodox church.

My conclusion is that protestants may be saved but we do not know for sure. If one day I can be convinced we know they are saved and Jesus is the only priest I can preach it. Until then I feel I should defend on forums not go offending people on purpose to those who are not seeking but to those that the church is the only ark of salvation which includes all apostolic churches as long as they all maintain the essential same beliefs and the oriental orthodox accept eastern orthodox so atleast we accept them. Others may also be saved if they have excuse to believe other some heretic beliefs especially if they believe those beliefs but I do not know.

I think the church has to try to accept other christians as they need hope. It is not up to me. As a catholic person said to me it is not up to them to make unity but the church leaders.













« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 05:50:40 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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I would like to scan and upload the pdf of Pope Shenouda III book Do not judge others

Offline mikeforjesus

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I defend orthodoxy because it is all I know is true. Jesus is the only mediator. The priest does not forgive sins. He only declares that Jesus has already forgiven your sins according to the gift given to him. The protestants would hold they can also find out if they have repented without the priest but I can not teach that as fact yet. I believe God could and would probably reveal it to me if it is important to be revealed to for the world if I seek diligently enough. Also the priest is not the one to give or not give communion. It is the Lord's command he is simply given the role to give it to others. He advises against taking it if he believes the person has not repented but he can not forbid as he can err.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 06:57:27 AM by mikeforjesus »

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I am willing to accept the below if I feel it is a solution because I should not speak because I am guilty and not overburden people with laws that may be too much for them but I am not convinced yet it will help people be close to Jesus. If I am convinced I will follow it. I may have some relations with the church for other reasons but not to be served by them or taught by them unless they can speak to my concerns.

I can not speak of God's laws because of my sins. I am considering to accept salvation is through Jesus alone. I will no longer seek mystical experiences in the church by trying to please the church so I can have mystical experiences that I think I need to repent. I need only Jesus and I follow only Jesus. I don't need any other church fathers as teachers only as commentators. I am not condemning those in the church they are not guilty like me and you can be saved but I think this way is better for me. Also there are stumbling blocks in the church to the world that I feel I associate with too much such as false teachings so I want to be out. You can be saved so long as you believe right things even if you are among stumblings but I don't want to be. I may join the church later if I feel I am not causing others to stumble or my separating from the church is causing stumbling blocks to world by causing me to be lost. Also I am worried you can't live a healthy spiritual life outside the church so I would advise others to join the church as I would too if I feel I need it.

The Lord says My house is called a house of prayer for all nations. But you have made it a den of thieves. That is tradition if it offends people is stopping others from wanting to come to Jesus and is replacing Jesus Christ. The church is important but for it to be relevant to this generation it needs to be flexible.

I am open to considering to be a monk if I think it will reveal to me the truth about the church and Jesus. Or if I feel the way of life is a blessing as my many sins owe.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 09:03:20 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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I would like to scan and upload the pdf of Pope Shenouda III book Do not judge others

I scanned it and created a pdf file which I use to read on my iphone but prefer to seek permission of church to share link I created. I don't think they will worry about losing money as it was very cheap but such a topic is very important and sharing it seems to devalue the seriousness of it.




« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 11:33:19 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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I can not speak of God's laws because of my sins. I am considering to accept salvation is through Jesus alone. I will no longer seek mystical experiences in the church by trying to please the church so I can have mystical experiences that I think I need to repent.

There is nothing wrong with mystical experiences if they aid you to fulfill all the commandments otherwise it can be a cause for idleness and a distraction from obeying God because you are praying not to get direction or strength to do God will or help in spiritual life but just to be proud of talking much to the Lord. Unless you are making many requests to the Lord and not just talking about many things it seems it could be vain repetition.  One monk said I want to pray all day and his abbot did not allow him to come to his cell to eat food because he does not work. I experienced an affect as I prayed the Jesus prayer once. I used no special technique. I read before about uncreated light from eastern orthodox site and thought that is what I experienced. I forgot about it before but now I remember that is probably the affect I experienced before not being able to describe it. I felt I was in the presence of God or heaven even though I saw no one. But im not sure it was from the Jesus prayer as much as God having pity on me because I want to enter His presence. It is a sign to seek after Him. But it happend as I was praying the Jesus prayer about 20 times I am guessing. I never used to pray it much. I prayed it because my confession father said to pray it when I have anxiety. I have never experienced that heavenly feeling again. I felt free from the chains of the flesh and what is preventing my ascent to God for He said only the pure in heart shall see Him. I think because I was striving after purity then so when I ask for mercy as I am pure He lets me enter His presence for a moment.

But I mean being curious about others mystical experiences so trying to please men in the church so you can see what they experience and you are missing because you are curious you are missing something or to know what they experience should not be a reason to give total commitment to some men's ideas who want you to believe only their way is right when you do not know because in trying to see what they experience you neglected to see if you can experience God yourself.
 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 12:06:51 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Growing up Pentecostal got most of the yen for mystical experiences out of me, I think (I've "pretended"/psyched myself up into think I could speak in tongues, and seen others do things like it, but haven't had much in the way of more unusual experiences personally). If I had a mystical experience now, I'd probably just assume rightly or wrongly it was mental illness.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 09:02:40 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Growing up Pentecostal got most of the yen for mystical experiences out of me, I think (I've "pretended"/psyched myself up into think I could speak in tongues, and seen others do things like it, but haven't had much in the way of more unusual experiences personally). If I had a mystical experience now, I'd probably just assume rightly or wrongly it was mental illness.

That’s what an Atheist psychologist said to me. He said if I think God is listening and responding to my prayer I have bipolar. He said he went to a Coptic wedding. He seem to want to mock Christianity as an excuse because someone poor and sinful has something he don’t have. I can not comment on Pentecostalism. I thought many of them are lying on purpose but if they are not they could have valid mystical experiences. The bible speaks of two types of tongues speaking another language which another can interpret and speaking to God in a tongue to God only you two understand. I guess it is possible something similar to dreams but it may be caused by demonic activity like dreams to make you proud and make you show off you are chosen because the devil knows we are chosen. They may start communicating with God but be caught away with spiritual thoughts caused by satan for he knows the bible well. Their knowledge does not profit them practically.

The world can only see the beauty of the face but not the soul. Therefore many people have asked to be beautiful because they can't handle rejection from the world. The antichrist will be very beautiful most likely and seem like such a great person. One pastor recently said he will be a homosexual because a passage is interpreted to mean he will not desire women. But he could be a virgin. He will appear kind and charming but he is not in reality. He just have a beautiful appearance. He will hate the harlot and kill her which she deserves for giving her loyalty to the beast.
Because satan appears as a minister of light and righteousness people can mistake satan for God. Therefore it is wise to reject all dreams as the book of sirach says. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Do they teach repentance is only guaranteed today and is God blessing their ministry in teaching that

Jesus beauty is not comparable to any image. Therefore those who worship the images of Jesus could be idolising him and not knowing Him in the Spirit.  Sorry to say. The images of Jesus are made to attract us to God's love but you worship the image when you think He is communication to you through the image constantly and His love.

Children who are attracted to beauty and a loving God that does not feel upset from any sins to make them repent this is work of antichrist. Also Mystery Babylon is the mother of harlots. That is because of such vain worship many are stuck in their sins. God's beauty can not be compared to an image.

It could be satan telling me not to be afraid.

The Lord truly loves people even when they sin but He is not their buddy except when they do His commandments

The devil comes as a minister of light therefore he also would tell you what the Lord says which is not to be afraid. We should not be afraid if persecution arises for the word's sake for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught that is you will not sin spiritually but Jesus says that the tribulation time will be difficult for christians who have to live in that time if they have not been prepared. He said woe to those nursing babies in those days. So He said pray that your flight may not be in winter and the fathers interpret that to mean in the coldness of sin. God will not let you be tempted beyond what you are able. But to those not prepared the temptation will come as a shock and they will not have faith to overcome the temptation as temptation is more difficult when you are not prepared as you must make more effort to overcome to win. Jesus said these words I have spoken to you that you may not be made to stumble.


« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 05:18:20 PM by mikeforjesus »

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The fact that all your musings and second guessing of yourself seem to be leading you to despair or analysis paralysis rather than getting on with your life indicates to me that it's not the Holy Spirit that's troubling you. God wants us to be aware, yes, but He doesn't want us to despair. Of course, it's hard to tell just based on forum posts.

Just say your prayers, read the Bible, and go to Church. Try to be attentive and honest-but-compassionate when talking to people, but don't worry too much about what to say or not (Matthew 10:9 might apply). As long as you're honest with them about your concerns but also respectable, they have no right to be angry with you and God will deal with them however He will. It's out of your hands at that point.

Finish school and go into whatever career you find most fulfilling and doable for you. God doesn't need you to try and "game the system" for the salvation of other people's souls (and it's not possible, anyway).

I think that's all most people can really do. Worrying cannot make one hair black or white.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Thankyou. I had a long reply I was going to say above your reply but I accidently deleted it.
It would have been a relevant reply to your reply though it was not directed to it. But I guess I will leave it for another day. I had important thoughts and wanted your opinion if you still think it is not a valid concern. I hope I can remember everything I wanted to say and express it as well as I did.


« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:25:45 PM by mikeforjesus »

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If you need to talk, I'll be here. Take all the time you need.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Thanks brother :)

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No problem :)
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Growing up Pentecostal got most of the yen for mystical experiences out of me, I think (I've "pretended"/psyched myself up into think I could speak in tongues, and seen others do things like it, but haven't had much in the way of more unusual experiences personally). If I had a mystical experience now, I'd probably just assume rightly or wrongly it was mental illness.

I think you probably did have an experience where you were drawn to God's presence and your heart was speaking to God and trying to say something in a heart language to God which you don't know but it is speaking so it is a tongue. The heart was probably struggling to communicate with God so it was saying gibberish according to you mentally and you won't remember it because it is speaking to God. While the heart struggles to talk to God is answering so the heart feels at rest though it does not know what it was requesting. If we were not ill we would not need or seek such experience.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 07:38:57 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Growing up Pentecostal got most of the yen for mystical experiences out of me, I think (I've "pretended"/psyched myself up into think I could speak in tongues, and seen others do things like it, but haven't had much in the way of more unusual experiences personally). If I had a mystical experience now, I'd probably just assume rightly or wrongly it was mental illness.

I think you probably did have an experience where you were drawn to God's presence and your heart was speaking to God and trying to say something in a heart language to God which you don't know but it is speaking so it is a tongue. The heart was probably struggling to communicate with God so it was saying gibberish according to you mentally and you won't remember it because it is speaking to God. While the heart struggles to talk to God is answering so the heart feels at rest though it does not know what it was requesting. If we were not ill we would not need or seek such experience.

I can agree that I had a desire to experience God, but I think I was basically just scating like jazz singer (I can still do it, actually, it's just repetitive nonsense). This is essentially what the Pentecostal teachers advise, "Just open your mouth and speak something other than English. Fake it till you make it." The sense I get from Orthodox sources is that the "groanings that cannot be uttered" of Romans 8 are more something that Holy Spirit does for us in His capacity as an intercessor rather than something that we speak ourselves. To the extent that tongues existed in the Early Church it was actual human languages.

Anything more that there might be is a gift for very advanced ascetics.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 08:08:38 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Growing up Pentecostal got most of the yen for mystical experiences out of me, I think (I've "pretended"/psyched myself up into think I could speak in tongues, and seen others do things like it, but haven't had much in the way of more unusual experiences personally). If I had a mystical experience now, I'd probably just assume rightly or wrongly it was mental illness.

I think you probably did have an experience where you were drawn to God's presence and your heart was speaking to God and trying to say something in a heart language to God which you don't know but it is speaking so it is a tongue. The heart was probably struggling to communicate with God so it was saying gibberish according to you mentally and you won't remember it because it is speaking to God. While the heart struggles to talk to God is answering so the heart feels at rest though it does not know what it was requesting. If we were not ill we would not need or seek such experience.

I can agree that I had a desire to experience God, but I think I was basically just scating like jazz singer (I can still do it, actually, it's just repetitive nonsense). This is essentially what the Pentecostal teachers advise, "Just open your mouth and speak something other than English. Fake it till you make it." The sense I get from Orthodox sources is that the "groanings that cannot be uttered" of Romans 8 are more something that Holy Spirit does for us in His capacity as an intercessor rather than something that we speak ourselves. To the extent that tongues existed in the Early Church it was actual human languages.

Anything more that there might be is a gift for very advanced ascetics.

Thanks very much. You are very kind and understanding. 

I delayed responding as I tried to rewrite what I wanted to say before which I did but realise I do not want to take the direction I planned to take just yet unless I find it right and good if it is.

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Oh, it's fine. Take all the time you need to respond (Lord knows I do sometimes!).

I'm doing fifteen things at once right now, anyway lol.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Dear brother ~ Speaking in tongues is a good thing ~ English is a good tongue ~ Greek may be better in some ways ~ I use Armenian for some prayers ~ like the Hayr Mer ( Our Father ) and the family prayer before meals ``` I use to enjoy the feeling of Latin ~ when at certain service ```

If you think it would feel good ~ do learn a prayer in Greek or a tongue of your choice ~ even if you don't your self know each word ~ But ~ I would advise against Babel ~ it would be better to hum a tune to Our Lord ```


If I've misunderstood the posts I just read ~ forgive me ~ I'll go back and re read ```

Your brother in Christ

seth

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Dear brother ~ Speaking in tongues is a good thing ~ English is a good tongue ~ Greek may be better in some ways ~ I use Armenian for some prayers ~ like the Hayr Mer ( Our Father ) and the family prayer before meals ``` I use to enjoy the feeling of Latin ~ when at certain service ```

If you think it would feel good ~ do learn a prayer in Greek or a tongue of your choice ~ even if you don't your self know each word ~ But ~ I would advise against Babel ~ it would be better to hum a tune to Our Lord ```


If I've misunderstood the posts I just read ~ forgive me ~ I'll go back and re read ```

Your brother in Christ

seth

This is why "tongues" is such a bad translation of that concept heh.

What I'm talking about is this.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:50:43 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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I don't think I am allowed to leave the faith.  It is impossible for those who were once enlightened to renew them to repentance. Maybe that means it is harder to convince them to return. My sins can not be used as an excuse.
He who is given more to him more is required.

I don't like to be intimidated by st theophan the recluse who said if you having the fullness leave it and enter a heterodox sect you will lose your soul forever. He may be wrong in some case or my case but he may be right so I will follow not because of threat but because of being convinced. The threat is only useful to make me consider. He says we should not worry about heterodox God is leading them to salvation in his own way.

Therefore I don't believe I need to leave the faith. But if he means some orthodox are called to the faith who are shown more grace in this life and he may believe God will show them He wants them orthodox while others are saved outside who are not shown as much grace so He is not excusing all protestants. God wants all orthodox but he accepts all christians the same for it is not the time for all to be orthodox. He calls some to orthodoxy.

But I think maybe all christians are saved even those who leave the faith but as I can not prove it now it would be wrong to leave the faith.
But my church may think all protestants need to be christian which I do not accept and still believe I am orthodox and the church should try to see others are accepted but if they know they are christian why would they be offended by those of orthodox?  If all christians are saved I think protestants are affected by orthodox judging them because they are not educated about their faith or not living close to the Lord to know the truth. If they are affected and they think it is true if they are offended they can join the church if they want.
The church may want me to defend the church and confess it where I have denied it.

If I am not orthodox I won't be able to marry an orthodox unless they accept someone like me. I thought it okay I am okay to marry someone christian outside the church and it may be good for the kingdom of God but in fact I think she may not be able to handle me as her expectations would be different as we are raised differently and we may not be able to get along and I may be guilty of ruining a marriage and if I have kids may not be able to raise them well. I thought maybe God would lead us to the church but I think He may not unless He leads all and He may not if I led others not to be orthodox. I worry if it will apply to me I am marrying and giving in marriage. An ungodly marriage. For the purpose of marriage is to bring up children to the Lord as Paul says for He seeks godly offspring. The person I marry could be a person pretending to be christian or a immature one I can't get along with because we are raised differently. She may have no respect for orthodoxy if I want to join it later. Especially because her parents may not become orthodox.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 06:43:59 AM by mikeforjesus »

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But I think maybe all christians are saved even those who leave the faith but as I can not prove it now it would be wrong to leave the faith.
But my church may think all protestants need to be christian which I do not accept and still believe I am orthodox and the church should try to see others are accepted but if they know they are christian why would they be offended by those of orthodox?  If all christians are saved I think protestants are affected by orthodox judging them because they are not educated about their faith or not living close to the Lord to know the truth. If they are affected and they think it is true if they are offended they can join the church if they want.
The church may want me to defend the church and confess it where I have denied it.

I personally believe protestants are saved like St Theophan but as I can not prove it and am not the judge all should maybe follow the church unless they are sure of their beliefs


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« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 07:20:37 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Time passed to edit I wanted to say

There was a time when we became arrogant because we thought we were the only ones saved because we never had a great sinful past but that is because we were raised with the fullness of the truth not because others were rejected. We became arrogant because we thought we are the only ones saved because we are part of the true church. In truth it was because we were raised with respect to the law so having failed to keep the law we came to Christ first because it is most important to us to keep the law and we thought Christ will help us.
We should fear maybe protestants are saved and we are not. God said He is able to raise up children to abraham from stones. Therefore He may accept them or make them orthodox if they must. They do many good works. People are dying in africa and we have not been able to rise from our laziness and escape the chains of the flesh that bind us to this earth. We criticise other peoples ministry.   Give to the church first we say which others will never have money to give to the poor outside the church.We thought we are safe to only love our own people.  I deceived myself to believe the poor people in africa might not be saved because they are not orthodox even if they are christian but I personally believe they are saved now but I can not prove it so maybe they should convert. I thought we can stop them from being christian by hindering the gospel by being strictly orthodox but I think maybe it is not true.

Jesus said you did not believe but tax collectors and harlots believed John.And John taught doing works of compassion to the poor. And it seems no one is able to do it by His power but only by God's. I think that means we must really love all others and accept them even if we hold our faith we must really believe it is right. If our belief makes us feel a bit offended they are not orthodox I don't think we love them.

There is a website Jesus-is-Savior.com which criticises eveyone I wish they would criticise me too if I can bear it. I thought it important to know some peoples behaviour lest I be deceived but not to be blinded from any chance of taking any good because only God in the end knows who is saved. If they have faults they should correct it in fear of being judged but that is their business not mine.
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 07:45:59 AM by mikeforjesus »

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I cannot see how I am living a life of repentance by not accepting other christians (not that I am not accepting them but I can not declare as fact just my opinion which I can not be sure about yet) considering my sins but I will see a priest or my father of confession about that. Repentance means not just being sorry but doing what you can to help fix the past if you can.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 08:44:24 AM by mikeforjesus »

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But I think maybe all christians are saved even those who leave the faith but as I can not prove it now it would be wrong to leave the faith.
But my church may think all protestants need to be christian which I do not accept and still believe I am orthodox and the church should try to see others are accepted but if they know they are christian why would they be offended by those of orthodox?  If all christians are saved I think protestants are affected by orthodox judging them because they are not educated about their faith or not living close to the Lord to know the truth. If they are affected and they think it is true if they are offended they can join the church if they want.
The church may want me to defend the church and confess it where I have denied it.

I personally believe protestants are saved like St Theophan but as I can not prove it and am not the judge all should maybe follow the church unless they are sure of their beliefs

Strictly speaking, St. Theophan didn't say they were saved. He just said that God loves them and desires their salvation (a Biblical statement) and that Orthodox shouldn't waste time worrying too much about other people's fates when they have their own salvation to work out.

I don't think you're unrepentant just because you see them as heretics. People have to be honest about what they believe. You can tell them that Jesus loves them and wants to save them while also maintaining that it's very important for them to obey God's will for humanity by becoming Orthodox now. You can accept them as fellow humans made in God's image and love and pray for them even as you disagree with their theology (indeed, it's not possible to "accept" all Christians theologically when the theologies are all completely contradictory).

And pay no attention to Jesus-is-Savior. It's an conspiracy theory-mongering garbage site that is in no way representative of most Protestants. As far as criticizing, I doubt the webmaster even knows what a Copt is, but I'm sure he would condemn you just as he does the EO. This is certainly anything but a spirit of "acceptance."
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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But I think maybe all christians are saved even those who leave the faith but as I can not prove it now it would be wrong to leave the faith.
But my church may think all protestants need to be christian which I do not accept and still believe I am orthodox and the church should try to see others are accepted but if they know they are christian why would they be offended by those of orthodox?  If all christians are saved I think protestants are affected by orthodox judging them because they are not educated about their faith or not living close to the Lord to know the truth. If they are affected and they think it is true if they are offended they can join the church if they want.
The church may want me to defend the church and confess it where I have denied it.

I personally believe protestants are saved like St Theophan but as I can not prove it and am not the judge all should maybe follow the church unless they are sure of their beliefs

Strictly speaking, St. Theophan didn't say they were saved. He just said that God loves them and desires their salvation (a Biblical statement) and that Orthodox shouldn't waste time worrying too much about other people's fates when they have their own salvation to work out.

I don't think you're unrepentant just because you see them as heretics. People have to be honest about what they believe. You can tell them that Jesus loves them and wants to save them while also maintaining that it's very important for them to obey God's will for humanity by becoming Orthodox now. You can accept them as fellow humans made in God's image and love and pray for them even as you disagree with their theology (indeed, it's not possible to "accept" all Christians theologically when the theologies are all completely contradictory).

And pay no attention to Jesus-is-Savior. It's an conspiracy theory-mongering garbage site that is in no way representative of most Protestants. As far as criticizing, I doubt the webmaster even knows what a Copt is, but I'm sure he would condemn you just as he does the EO. This is certainly anything but a spirit of "acceptance."

I think I can leave my beliefs to myself which may or may not be true.  I disagree that offending others and offending others about my belief may not help repentance. Unfortunately I am not sure I can trust the church and priests to take to lead me to repentance.
That website though he suffers alot from suspicion and judgement .I believe he may be still be sincere in his attempt to please God but not yet obeying God in truly loving others though he believes he means well.

The bible says not to hate prophesies. I might want to use that site if my own attempts to find the truth fail or less harder.
I will never convincibly teach protestants can be saved until I find the truth. So I am always seeking.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 12:03:36 PM by mikeforjesus »

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But I think maybe all christians are saved even those who leave the faith but as I can not prove it now it would be wrong to leave the faith.
But my church may think all protestants need to be christian which I do not accept and still believe I am orthodox and the church should try to see others are accepted but if they know they are christian why would they be offended by those of orthodox?  If all christians are saved I think protestants are affected by orthodox judging them because they are not educated about their faith or not living close to the Lord to know the truth. If they are affected and they think it is true if they are offended they can join the church if they want.
The church may want me to defend the church and confess it where I have denied it.

I personally believe protestants are saved like St Theophan but as I can not prove it and am not the judge all should maybe follow the church unless they are sure of their beliefs

Strictly speaking, St. Theophan didn't say they were saved. He just said that God loves them and desires their salvation (a Biblical statement) and that Orthodox shouldn't waste time worrying too much about other people's fates when they have their own salvation to work out.

I don't think you're unrepentant just because you see them as heretics. People have to be honest about what they believe. You can tell them that Jesus loves them and wants to save them while also maintaining that it's very important for them to obey God's will for humanity by becoming Orthodox now. You can accept them as fellow humans made in God's image and love and pray for them even as you disagree with their theology (indeed, it's not possible to "accept" all Christians theologically when the theologies are all completely contradictory).

And pay no attention to Jesus-is-Savior. It's an conspiracy theory-mongering garbage site that is in no way representative of most Protestants. As far as criticizing, I doubt the webmaster even knows what a Copt is, but I'm sure he would condemn you just as he does the EO. This is certainly anything but a spirit of "acceptance."

I think I can leave my beliefs to myself which may or may not be true.  I disagree that offending others and offending others about my belief may not help repentance.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your wording here.

That website though he suffers alot from suspicion and judgement .I believe he may be still be sincere in his attempt to please God but not yet obeying God in truly loving others though he believes he means well.

The bible says not to hate prophesies. I might want to use that site if my own attempts to find the truth fail or less harder.
I will never convincibly teach protestants can be saved until I find the truth. So I am always seeking.

He's sincere but his worldview is still heretical, ignorant, and toxic. Sincere people believe and do awful things all the time.

If you really want to learn from Protestants, there's a lot of better sources out there. Try CS Lewis for starters. The Great Divorce, The Problem of Pain, and Mere Christianity all have interesting takes on Hell and ecumenical salvation.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Quote from: mikeforjesus
I think I can leave my beliefs to myself which may or may not be true.  I disagree that offending others and offending others about my belief may not help repentance.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your wording here.

I mean I need if I am offending others I may not be repenting because it does not help fix the situation

Quote from: Volnutt link
That website though he suffers alot from suspicion and judgement .I believe he may be still be sincere in his attempt to please God but not yet obeying God in truly loving others though he believes he means well.

The bible says not to hate prophesies. I might want to use that site if my own attempts to find the truth fail or less harder.
I will never convincibly teach protestants can be saved until I find the truth. So I am always seeking.

He's sincere but his worldview is still heretical, ignorant, and toxic. Sincere people believe and do awful things all the time.

If you really want to learn from Protestants, there's a lot of better sources out there. Try CS Lewis for starters. The Great Divorce, The Problem of Pain, and Mere Christianity all have interesting takes on Hell and ecumenical salvation.

Ok. I should try to seek Jesus on my own. And beware of them if they are trying to teach heretical beliefs if I can not be someone not affected by such people.  I thought I can listen without being deceived by them.

I decided to accept protestants and people are wrong to teach me to judge protestants. I will follow Jesus alone. I already am convinced enough that Jesus can save all. I believe in His priesthood for all who come to Him.  I don't think I am judged if I am just christian.  I also accept those in the church. The church can convince me I am wrong I don't think I am. I do however think perhaps I should marry in the church if they accept me. Or if I think marrying outside the church is not bad I consider it. I have a concern for souls. And I think they need to know they are accepted if they accept christ.
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 03:52:05 PM by mikeforjesus »

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I will still try to participate fully in the life of the church so I can be converted at any time but I am convinced I know the truth because he who is given more more is required. This may mean I am required to be orthodox and protestants are not. I may be required to serve the people of my church that there be no divisions but that does not mean I am convinced protestants are not accepted the same. Also I am testing if I am really given more in my church by participating in the life of it. So I am part of the church to prove I am unbiased to those born in protestant faiths.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 05:46:15 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Quote from: mikeforjesus
I think I can leave my beliefs to myself which may or may not be true.  I disagree that offending others and offending others about my belief may not help repentance.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your wording here.

I mean I need if I am offending others I may not be repenting because it does not help fix the situation

Sounds like you're overthinking things (a problem that I also struggle with). Just resolve not to offend people anymore (though sometimes it's unavoidable) and just ask them for forgiveness if you've offended them in the past, that's all anybody can really do to repent.

Quote from: Volnutt link
That website though he suffers alot from suspicion and judgement .I believe he may be still be sincere in his attempt to please God but not yet obeying God in truly loving others though he believes he means well.

The bible says not to hate prophesies. I might want to use that site if my own attempts to find the truth fail or less harder.
I will never convincibly teach protestants can be saved until I find the truth. So I am always seeking.

He's sincere but his worldview is still heretical, ignorant, and toxic. Sincere people believe and do awful things all the time.

If you really want to learn from Protestants, there's a lot of better sources out there. Try CS Lewis for starters. The Great Divorce, The Problem of Pain, and Mere Christianity all have interesting takes on Hell and ecumenical salvation.

Ok. I should try to seek Jesus on my own. And beware of them if they are trying to teach heretical beliefs if I can not be someone not affected by such people.  I thought I can listen without being deceived by them.

There's nothing to listen to in the case of Jesus-Is-Savior. Sites like that are the textual version of noise pollution.

I decided to accept protestants and people are wrong to teach me to judge protestants. I will follow Jesus alone. I already am convinced enough that Jesus can save all. I believe in His priesthood for all who come to Him.  I don't think I am judged if I am just christian.  I also accept those in the church. The church can convince me I am wrong I don't think I am. I do however think perhaps I should marry in the church if they accept me. Or if I think marrying outside the church is not bad I consider it. I have a concern for souls. And I think they need to know they are accepted if they accept christ.

I will still try to participate fully in the life of the church so I can be converted at any time but I am convinced I know the truth because he who is given more more is required. This may mean I am required to be orthodox and protestants are not. I may be required to serve the people of my church that there be no divisions but that does not mean I am convinced protestants are not accepted the same. Also I am testing if I am really given more in my church by participating in the life of it. So I am part of the church to prove I am unbiased to those born in protestant faiths.

I think in general, Orthodoxy is a better place to be, simply because it has a coherent and ancient system of concrete theology. Protestantism is kind of a catch-all term than can cover people who are Orthodox in all but name to people who are grossly heretical by any reasonable measure.

It's certainly not impossible to be Orthodox while believing that Protestants can be saved, but that doesn't preclude disagreeing with features of the various Protestant theologies (which in turn is far from the same thing as condemning Protestants as individuals, whom God still loves).

It would probably be better to save the whole marriage question until you've got a woman that you're thinking of marrying. I mean, for all you know she'll want to convert! I know that I'd convert in a heartbeat, if a nice Coptic lady that I was in love with asked me to.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 03:56:52 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Quote from: mikeforjesus
I think I can leave my beliefs to myself which may or may not be true.  I disagree that offending others and offending others about my belief may not help repentance.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your wording here.

I mean I need if I am offending others I may not be repenting because it does not help fix the situation

Sounds like you're overthinking things (a problem that I also struggle with). Just resolve not to offend people anymore (though sometimes it's unavoidable) and just ask them for forgiveness if you've offended them in the past, that's all anybody can really do to repent.

Quote from: Volnutt link
That website though he suffers alot from suspicion and judgement .I believe he may be still be sincere in his attempt to please God but not yet obeying God in truly loving others though he believes he means well.

The bible says not to hate prophesies. I might want to use that site if my own attempts to find the truth fail or less harder.
I will never convincibly teach protestants can be saved until I find the truth. So I am always seeking.

He's sincere but his worldview is still heretical, ignorant, and toxic. Sincere people believe and do awful things all the time.

If you really want to learn from Protestants, there's a lot of better sources out there. Try CS Lewis for starters. The Great Divorce, The Problem of Pain, and Mere Christianity all have interesting takes on Hell and ecumenical salvation.

Ok. I should try to seek Jesus on my own. And beware of them if they are trying to teach heretical beliefs if I can not be someone not affected by such people.  I thought I can listen without being deceived by them.

There's nothing to listen to in the case of Jesus-Is-Savior. Sites like that are the textual version of noise pollution.

I decided to accept protestants and people are wrong to teach me to judge protestants. I will follow Jesus alone. I already am convinced enough that Jesus can save all. I believe in His priesthood for all who come to Him.  I don't think I am judged if I am just christian.  I also accept those in the church. The church can convince me I am wrong I don't think I am. I do however think perhaps I should marry in the church if they accept me. Or if I think marrying outside the church is not bad I consider it. I have a concern for souls. And I think they need to know they are accepted if they accept christ.

I will still try to participate fully in the life of the church so I can be converted at any time but I am convinced I know the truth because he who is given more more is required. This may mean I am required to be orthodox and protestants are not. I may be required to serve the people of my church that there be no divisions but that does not mean I am convinced protestants are not accepted the same. Also I am testing if I am really given more in my church by participating in the life of it. So I am part of the church to prove I am unbiased to those born in protestant faiths.

I think in general, Orthodoxy is a better place to be, simply because it has a coherent and ancient system of concrete theology. Protestantism is kind of a catch-all term than can cover people who are Orthodox in all but name to people who are grossly heretical by any reasonable measure.

It's certainly not impossible to be Orthodox while believing that Protestants can be saved, but that doesn't preclude disagreeing with features of the various Protestant theologies (which in turn is far from the same thing as condemning Protestants as individuals, whom God still loves).

It would probably be better to save the whole marriage question until you've got a woman that you're thinking of marrying. I mean, for all you know she'll want to convert! I know that I'd convert in a heartbeat, if a nice Coptic lady that I was in love with asked me to.

I agree what you said about protestants but think one could be fully christian outside the church and maybe christianity is the only orthodox thing which I am struggling with doubt because I believe this and up to church to convert me as my next post will show

I think you are right. It is lovely to have you as member of our faith. Could you not stand a better chance if you actually co
nvert?
shouldn't you convert if you believe it is true? but I trust there are reasons you don't convert such as not sure if you can trust that the church which you believe is true is worthy of entering it if it does not welcome someone if it will cause stumbling to others outside the church. But now I am not sure one should worry about such stumbling and one should follow what he thinks is true.

Offline mikeforjesus

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One problem remains. I believe in the holy eucharist. Therefore I can not confidently say now salvation is outside the church but if I can prove it later I can. The reason many turned from Jesus is they did not understand that their Messiah would die for them and only partaking in that life giving sacrifice because it is resurrected can they live with Him. Just like Jesus said many would fall away during tribulation if they received the word on stony ground and not solid ground. Maybe if their messiah would leave them like that they thought He would ask them to take up some cross so they left. Jesus wants us to eat Him to remind us that because of our sins He was crucified for us and that we need His flesh as food and life. We desired His flesh to eat to take away the punishment we deserve and He freely gave it. We needed to take anothers life to save our own and He gave it. 

Paul says we are all one body for we all partake of that one bread. The bread we take is it not the communion of the body of christ. The blood we drink is it not the communion of the blood of Christ. For we being many members are one body for we all partake of that one bread.

We therefore do not believe it is a symbol. The protestant could say in the act we are communing with what Christ did even though it is a symbol. Therefore they believe anyone can do it. And we are all one body because we all commune with christ about what he did.

But Jesus said this is My body. And commands the church to do it in remembrance of Him. Paul said those who eat it unworthily eat and drink judgement to themselves and many have fallen asleep and are sick because of not honouring it not discerning the Lord's body. They have to examine themselves. Therefore it is something more than simply talking to christ. And more punishment is given when you do sin and take communion which wouldn't make sense for those who don't believe in communion because christians should always be light of the world and chastened if they make a stumbling block.

Paul says

1 Corinthians 10:14-22
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the [e]communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices [f]partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

Matthew 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, [c]blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the [d]new covenant, which is shed for many for the [e]remission of sins.

The greatest proof that that communion is actually the blood of christ is these verses from Matthew. He is saying the drink He is giving them now is actually His blood. And here He instituted the new covenant which would be centered on the eucharist.

I can not therefore say protestantism is equally correct as orthodoxy but they may still be part of the body if they have not been called. He may exempt them from the eucharist.

I might agree with this view though

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh

I have become a heretic. My dad said to the bishop he is orthodox. He may believe in communion and I am not sure it is not true but it seems it may not be only among the apostolic churches

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Quote from: mikeforjesus
I think I can leave my beliefs to myself which may or may not be true.  I disagree that offending others and offending others about my belief may not help repentance.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your wording here.

I mean I need if I am offending others I may not be repenting because it does not help fix the situation

Sounds like you're overthinking things (a problem that I also struggle with). Just resolve not to offend people anymore (though sometimes it's unavoidable) and just ask them for forgiveness if you've offended them in the past, that's all anybody can really do to repent.

Quote from: Volnutt link
That website though he suffers alot from suspicion and judgement .I believe he may be still be sincere in his attempt to please God but not yet obeying God in truly loving others though he believes he means well.

The bible says not to hate prophesies. I might want to use that site if my own attempts to find the truth fail or less harder.
I will never convincibly teach protestants can be saved until I find the truth. So I am always seeking.

He's sincere but his worldview is still heretical, ignorant, and toxic. Sincere people believe and do awful things all the time.

If you really want to learn from Protestants, there's a lot of better sources out there. Try CS Lewis for starters. The Great Divorce, The Problem of Pain, and Mere Christianity all have interesting takes on Hell and ecumenical salvation.

Ok. I should try to seek Jesus on my own. And beware of them if they are trying to teach heretical beliefs if I can not be someone not affected by such people.  I thought I can listen without being deceived by them.

There's nothing to listen to in the case of Jesus-Is-Savior. Sites like that are the textual version of noise pollution.

I decided to accept protestants and people are wrong to teach me to judge protestants. I will follow Jesus alone. I already am convinced enough that Jesus can save all. I believe in His priesthood for all who come to Him.  I don't think I am judged if I am just christian.  I also accept those in the church. The church can convince me I am wrong I don't think I am. I do however think perhaps I should marry in the church if they accept me. Or if I think marrying outside the church is not bad I consider it. I have a concern for souls. And I think they need to know they are accepted if they accept christ.

I will still try to participate fully in the life of the church so I can be converted at any time but I am convinced I know the truth because he who is given more more is required. This may mean I am required to be orthodox and protestants are not. I may be required to serve the people of my church that there be no divisions but that does not mean I am convinced protestants are not accepted the same. Also I am testing if I am really given more in my church by participating in the life of it. So I am part of the church to prove I am unbiased to those born in protestant faiths.

I think in general, Orthodoxy is a better place to be, simply because it has a coherent and ancient system of concrete theology. Protestantism is kind of a catch-all term than can cover people who are Orthodox in all but name to people who are grossly heretical by any reasonable measure.

It's certainly not impossible to be Orthodox while believing that Protestants can be saved, but that doesn't preclude disagreeing with features of the various Protestant theologies (which in turn is far from the same thing as condemning Protestants as individuals, whom God still loves).

It would probably be better to save the whole marriage question until you've got a woman that you're thinking of marrying. I mean, for all you know she'll want to convert! I know that I'd convert in a heartbeat, if a nice Coptic lady that I was in love with asked me to.

I agree what you said about protestants but think one could be fully christian outside the church and maybe christianity is the only orthodox thing which I am struggling with doubt because I believe this and up to church to convert me as my next post will show

I think you are right. It is lovely to have you as member of our faith. Could you not stand a better chance if you actually co
nvert?
shouldn't you convert if you believe it is true? but I trust there are reasons you don't convert such as not sure if you can trust that the church which you believe is true is worthy of entering it if it does not welcome someone if it will cause stumbling to others outside the church. But now I am not sure one should worry about such stumbling and one should follow what he thinks is true.

I'll likely start the conversion process soon. A lot of it is just me missing Church (which I did all the time before, anyway). I have some remaining issues with Orthodox social teachings, and I'll discuss those with the priest, but I should be able to put them on the back burner.

I'm also anticipating a lot of debates with my father, so I'm trying to gather some more resources together and get some books read before I tell him about it (I don't drive, so I need help from my parents to get to Church).

Maybe one can be fully Christian outside of Orthodoxy, maybe not. But one could at least make a positive case for why Orthodoxy is a more solid foundation than Protestantism, though.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 04:45:02 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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I'll likely start the conversion process soon. A lot of it is just me missing Church (which I did all the time before, anyway). I have some remaining issues with Orthodox social teachings, and I'll discuss those with the priest, but I should be able to put them on the back burner.

I'm also anticipating a lot of debates with my father, so I'm trying to gather some more resources together and get some books read before I tell him about it (I don't drive, so I need help from my parents to get to Church).

Maybe one can be fully Christian outside of Orthodoxy, maybe not. But one could at least make a positive case for why Orthodoxy is a more solid foundation than Protestantism, though.

Ok Thankyou. That is great. I will say some more prayers for you.
I agree one could maybe make a case and I am waiting to be convinced. I could study the church myself too even though I am already supposed to be orthodox but I do not want to declare it as fact unless proven by others or I seen it myself.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 04:57:55 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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My dad said to a bishop he is orthodox as he had a debate about some things and does not believe protestant are not christian or atleast he believes not to judge them. I defended my dad against the bishop presenting myself loyal to orthodoxy and I became a celebrity. But now I do not think I agree with orthodoxy and I am a heretic.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 05:00:26 PM by mikeforjesus »

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My dad said to a bishop he is orthodox as he had a debate about some things and does not believe protestant are not christian or atleast he believes not to judge them. I defended my dad against the bishop presenting myself loyal to orthodoxy and I became a celebrity. But now I do not think I agree with orthodoxy and I am a heretic.
I doubt an orthodox bishop would openly condemn someone. 

Offline mikeforjesus

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My dad said to a bishop he is orthodox as he had a debate about some things and does not believe protestant are not christian or atleast he believes not to judge them. I defended my dad against the bishop presenting myself loyal to orthodoxy and I became a celebrity. But now I do not think I agree with orthodoxy and I am a heretic.
I doubt an orthodox bishop would openly condemn someone.

He condemned those of the belief as not Christian but not their soul. I don’t know if he condemns the people but likely he believes he does not know about them. He is a nice bishop so I’m pretty sure he holds he does not know. He is actually just a bishop of a monastery from Egypt I think
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 05:47:46 PM by mikeforjesus »

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I am orthodox because I believe in communion but it may not be true or rather it may be also among protestants though they do not believe they receive His actual body and blood they believe He is present in their communion to give grace. We should accept those who believe otherwise because they are sincere thinking they have the true meaning of communion and people are judged according to what they know and even those who feel drawn to orthodoxy but are confused some or many may be excused. Even they may all be saved who please God and/or their repentance is acceptable to Him and they may have the true beliefs but we do not know. We should not waste our time arguing with other christians there are 4 billion people who need the gospel preached to them. Paul said he preaches christ crucified and was not occupied with baptising. When or if they feel they need it they will get baptised and join the church. Also I believe God is able to convince them they need it as the bible says those who are born again are not born of men's will but God. They will hear His voice and follow. We should be part of the church and take communion and see if that really makes us know orthodoxy is the only way or our mission if I find it is not judgemental but it may show no mission for I tell you I take communion and I still sin. I may feel an affect but it may be psychological because I was anxious and the wait was over or a protestant may feel the same affect in their church
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 02:27:40 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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If I can’t submit to clergy if I could win them by repentance and/or humility what makes me think I can submit to God

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I still believe I am needed in the catholic church so I will visit their churches and maybe convert if I believe it is God's will. Though I worry my church may need me I don't have evidence of this and I believe others are more in need as I also am aware of committing serious sin against them. If I become catholic I will still consider orthodox part of me and try to fellowship with them if I feel they need me.

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I don’t think converting will solve any problem but will make it worse so I am not converting. It would be selfish as the attention would be on me. I also don’t think I belong as I won’t be able to belong because I won’t be able to influence them to stop teaching heresy. I would convert but I don’t see any assurance from them I would help any of them by converting.
But I may still visit churches because I feel there may be people that need to feel loved despite their upbringing. I am still open to try to understand their views
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 07:10:53 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Besides I should not promise something not easy as I may find no great help from any priest

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A priest is a man ~ some priests are good ~ if you come to a good priest and ask advice ~ you might get ~ the best of his learning ~ there are some who ~ can't make a choice for themselves  ~ much less for you ```

Ask the right person ~ if you can find him ```

Offline mikeforjesus

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A priest is a man ~ some priests are good ~ if you come to a good priest and ask advice ~ you might get ~ the best of his learning ~ there are some who ~ can't make a choice for themselves  ~ much less for you ```

Ask the right person ~ if you can find him ```

Thank you I shall still try to find right one :)

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Actually I will try to convert to help those I may have affected but I worry they won’t care. It is wrong to think I can be sinless or make others think I am but I try to help who I can.

I know the church has some who seem to hinder the gospel with their heresies but it also has many good believers. I worried about also the vulnerable people in my church but I don’t help them by staying.
My sin is not to them they should not take offence by my converting. I am not aware of people in my church needing me. They should not take offence.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 01:34:46 AM by mikeforjesus »

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I also worry about the vulnerable people in the Eastern Orthodox Church which is not helped by those who preach heresy but my responsibility is first to those I affected. I can visit Eastern Orthodox churches but not convert. My beliefs will still be orthodox unless catholic convince me. I won’t actually convert to Catholic Church unless I agree with their beliefs but I will visit their churches. My beliefs are Christian anyway. I do believe Jesus wants one flock and that can’t be done except they be united to the church because we believe in the sacraments. But that does not mean God does not accept other Christians but the goal is to make them one flock in the future. He accepts other Christians the same

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« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 02:58:21 PM by mikeforjesus »