Author Topic: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?  (Read 443 times)

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Offline maneki_neko

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I'm always interested to hear the reasons behind why some people look into Eastern Orthodoxy and then decide not to become Orthodox. I watched this guy's video (Brian Holdsworth) and got the impression that the facts he's basing his judgement on are a bit off. However, I'm no academic myself. While I can't make a judgement on his subjective experience (he one time went to a parish that "felt too ethnic" and that seems to be the bulk of his position), does anyone think his other arguments have valid points?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-57-XAxEYM
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2018, 01:42:14 PM »
True you can't deny his personal experience, though I'm not surprised that part of his video got enough reaction to warrant a second video.  But there are enough threads here to both illustrate why and address those concerns.  I think such experiences are often more complex than the one side we often hear.

As for the "does it look like it did before the split?" argument, it's not convincing to me because he doesn't demonstrate how the Pope of Rome actually held and exercised supremacy before the schism (in any way, but for his argument to really hold water, it would have to have been consistent supremacy from very early on).  And he apparently left one split unexamined.  ;) 
To me the question is more one of theology, spirituality, doctrine, and worship.  Do those still look the same as they did early on?

His point on unity isn't totally off (obviously it's necessary), except I think he doesn't define it the same way I do.  It sounds like he's thinking solely of administrative unity, and that in a specific way.  Though I do think America and Canada are sort of anomalous in this regard (with multiple overlapping jurisdictions), but I'm not sure what the solution would be that strikes the necessary balance.  To me that's meta stuff I can't do much about, and therefore don't worry much about.  He approached it pretty much the inverse from how I did, so it's hard for me to completely relate, anyway.  I looked at theology and doctrines first, and am just now thinking about hierarchy beyond the most basic understanding.  I don't think either approach is inherently better, though.  Just different.  :)

I don't think ostensible success or prosperity is a good indicator of much of anything except perhaps methodology, so that point doesn't register with me at all.  "The gates of Hell shall not prevail" =/= "everyone likes it" or "it's big and rich."  Honestly, if we are the Church militant, then it seems actually logical that the one most closely aligned with God's will is precisely the one that will be most attacked, oppressed, and persecuted.  "In this world you will have trouble...."  But either way, it's not how I assess what is or isn't the original Church (as if I personally could really do that, but we're talking in terms of personal journeys here).  In the end it comes down to faith, though, and we can't really argue people into or out of that.  We really shouldn't even want to.

Not deleting, not deleting, not deleting.   :P
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2018, 04:06:28 PM »
It's perfectly plausible that a North American attending a missionary Orthodox parish (there are many) considers converting to Roman Catholicism and ends up in a Filipino or Mexican parish (also many) and gets disappointed by ethnicism. His vision is myopic and only makes sense regarding personal journeys such as his own, and he actually makes this disclaimer very clear along the video, although he has some wrong remarks trying to make it general.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 04:08:17 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Online Vanhyo

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2018, 04:30:58 PM »
It looks like he became instead a youtube pastor-guru

Offline Sharbel

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2018, 05:14:26 PM »
Whenever I come across the facile critique that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are primarily ethnic and meant only for certain ethnicities, more often than not it's merely a case of a superficial inquiry.  Not that superficiality is necessarily the result of sloppiness, but perhaps that some important trait was being sought and, in failing to identify it, the subject is discarded.  And, when a conclusion, even if valid, is explained from a superficial examination, it may easily fall victim of stereotypes.  Not that some Orthodox parishes refrain totally from flirting with philetism, as he experienced at an Ukrainian parish.  Still, it seems to me that WASPs apparently put a lot of weight in human authority, discounting the Divine head of the Church, thus inevitably impoverishing it to a mere juridical understanding, when the figurehead of the pope is appealing, if not irresistible.  But I couldn't help being offended by his implying that persecution, oppression and martyrdom were marks of the enemies of the Church, when, on the contrary, these are exactly what Our Lord said his disciples would suffer.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2018, 05:28:55 PM »
Whenever I come across the facile critique that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are primarily ethnic and meant only for certain ethnicities, more often than not it's merely a case of a superficial inquiry.  Not that superficiality is necessarily the result of sloppiness, but perhaps that some important trait was being sought and, in failing to identify it, the subject is discarded.  And, when a conclusion, even if valid, is explained from a superficial examination, it may easily fall victim of stereotypes.  Not that some Orthodox parishes refrain totally from flirting with philetism, as he experienced at an Ukrainian parish.  Still, it seems to me that WASPs apparently put a lot of weight in human authority, discounting the Divine head of the Church, thus inevitably impoverishing it to a mere juridical understanding, when the figurehead of the pope is appealing, if not irresistible.  But I couldn't help being offended by his implying that persecution, oppression and martyrdom were marks of the enemies of the Church, when, on the contrary, these are exactly what Our Lord said his disciples would suffer.

Yeah, most of the prosperity of the Catholic Church is due to the favor of powerful governments and wealthy individuals. Orthodoxy had that too once upon a time, but the bad luck of history meant that their secular sugar daddies were conquered or collapsed before the Catholic ones did.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 05:29:19 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 05:41:35 PM »
Yeah, most of the prosperity of the Catholic Church is due to the favor of powerful governments and wealthy individuals. Orthodoxy had that too once upon a time, but the bad luck of history meant that their secular sugar daddies were conquered or collapsed before the Catholic ones did.
Sadly, when a Catholic points out the size and breadth of his Church, reducing its catholicity to mere numbers and area, he fails to recognize that, for a millennium, between the fall of Western Rome and the discovery of the New World, it was the other way around.  If these are the criteria, he's in for a rude awakening by the implosion of the Catholic Church in the West.  Including in Latin America, where it's enjoyed virtual hegemony until the last century.  What will he do when the numbers and the area shrink?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2018, 11:44:39 PM »
Yeah, most of the prosperity of the Catholic Church is due to the favor of powerful governments and wealthy individuals. Orthodoxy had that too once upon a time, but the bad luck of history meant that their secular sugar daddies were conquered or collapsed before the Catholic ones did.
Sadly, when a Catholic points out the size and breadth of his Church, reducing its catholicity to mere numbers and area, he fails to recognize that, for a millennium, between the fall of Western Rome and the discovery of the New World, it was the other way around.  If these are the criteria, he's in for a rude awakening by the implosion of the Catholic Church in the West.  Including in Latin America, where it's enjoyed virtual hegemony until the last century.  What will he do when the numbers and the area shrink?
their hysteria will no doubt increase, as it did in the first millennium resulting in Ultramontanism.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2018, 11:52:09 PM »
I'm always interested to hear the reasons behind why some people look into Eastern Orthodoxy and then decide not to become Orthodox. I watched this guy's video (Brian Holdsworth) and got the impression that the facts he's basing his judgement on are a bit off. However, I'm no academic myself. While I can't make a judgement on his subjective experience (he one time went to a parish that "felt too ethnic" and that seems to be the bulk of his position), does anyone think his other arguments have valid points?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-57-XAxEYM
seems he walked into the wrong parish. Unfortunately, his is correct that we have too many of those. But he is incorrect in not knocking on their door to come to the Truth.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sharbel

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2018, 04:16:41 PM »
I heard many of such conversion stories from Protestantism to Catholicism, including first hand.  It strikes me as odd that prayer and spiritual inquiry more often than not seem to take the back seat, behind intellectual inquiry.  It should be the other way around, for, if an important piece of information is missing, a huge mistake is committed.  In this case, the guy clearly relied on anecdotal or plainly biased information about the Orthodox Church, making a huge mistake, thought he seems to be have been sincere in his quest.  But a sincere quest without God first can never give the believer the confidence and hope that only He can grant.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: "Why I never became EO"; Anyone seen this RC guy's YT vid?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 09:54:38 AM »
Yeah, most of the prosperity of the Catholic Church is due to the favor of powerful governments and wealthy individuals. Orthodoxy had that too once upon a time, but the bad luck of history meant that their secular sugar daddies were conquered or collapsed before the Catholic ones did.
Sadly, when a Catholic points out the size and breadth of his Church, reducing its catholicity to mere numbers and area, he fails to recognize that, for a millennium, between the fall of Western Rome and the discovery of the New World, it was the other way around.  If these are the criteria, he's in for a rude awakening by the implosion of the Catholic Church in the West.  Including in Latin America, where it's enjoyed virtual hegemony until the last century.  What will he do when the numbers and the area shrink?


The roman catholic church had ''good luck'' proselytizing in warmer and densely populated areas of the the world like South America and the Philipines, if the spanish and portuguese colonial empires never happened, the roman catholic church would be way smaller and geographically confined in western europe and Poland.