Author Topic: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation  (Read 396 times)

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Offline maneki_neko

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Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« on: May 25, 2018, 02:20:24 AM »
I'm a bit confused over something my priest taught us. He said we can never be sure of anyone's salvation, to include our own or that of the Saints. I understand this for the majority of people, but I thought that Saints were those divinely revealed to the Church to have attained salvation. If we are not reasonably sure of their salvation, how does it make sense that we ask them to intercede?
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Offline platypus

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 10:05:16 AM »
We can be certain that the saints have been saved. The reason why we choose them for veneration is because they were (and still are) close to God. If there was cause to suspect someone might be in hell the Church most definitely wouldn't encourage us to pray to them.

Maybe your priest was referring to saints here on earth? You may want to ask him about it to make sure you haven't misunderstood him.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 12:42:57 PM »
Sanctification and justification happen at the same time. Wether they want to display their sainthood to others is up to them. Most of them don't because of fear of losing it due to pride. If there is an icon in your church you can rest assured it isn't there for no reason.

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2018, 01:45:52 PM »
Sanctification and justification happen at the same time. Wether they want to display their sainthood to others is up to them. Most of them don't because of fear of losing it due to pride. If there is an icon in your church you can rest assured it isn't there for no reason.

So, every Saint is completely sinless in this life from the instant of their baptism? That doesn't sound true.
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Offline Musicnerd88

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 03:20:33 PM »
The Saints aren't necessarily sinless from their baptism.  There are numerous examples of Saints struggling with the passions after being baptized.  St. Moses the Ethiopian for example would sometimes stand outside his cell not moving for days at a time in order to fight the passions. 

Here's an excerpt from the life of St. Moses:
 "When he was turned to repentance by St. Isidore, he struggled for many years with the lingering passions from his former life, especially lustful and violent thoughts. In his struggle, he became incredibly humble, never deigning to judge a brother for his struggle knowing the pervasiveness of his own sinful desires and the destructive consequences they had in his past." Found at:  http://www.ocf.net/four-saints-who-struggled-with-lust/

St. Mary of Egypt who's story we hear in Great Lent also struggled after she was baptized.  Just because someone is a saint doesn't mean they ceased struggling after their baptism.  Saints struggled throughout their lives just as we do.  They endured with patience and humility, those same struggles we wrestle with today; and set an example for us in how we should conduct ourselves when faced with the trials and tribulations of this life. 
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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 03:22:28 PM »
I agree. I'm just not sure that Tzimis does since he doesn't seem to believe in a process of sanctification.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2018, 03:58:18 PM »
What is "sanctification"    "justification"

What do they mean to youse ```
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 04:00:52 PM by Sethrak »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2018, 04:17:20 PM »
I agree. I'm just not sure that Tzimis does since he doesn't seem to believe in a process of sanctification.
I see where you are confused by my statements. Justification and santification is part of the same process. Justification or true justification is when god and man are in union and the saint knows it.  The process starts at baptism.
Orthodox believe in sinergia after baptism with a final goal towards theosis. Which is true justification.
You of all people should know we dont have a judicial atonement theology like the west.

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2018, 04:32:17 PM »
I agree. I'm just not sure that Tzimis does since he doesn't seem to believe in a process of sanctification.
I see where you are confused by my statements. Justification and santification is part of the same process. Justification or true justification is when god and man are in union and the saint knows it.  The process starts at baptism.
Orthodox believe in sinergia after baptism with a final goal towards theosis. Which is true justification.
You of all people should know we dont have a judicial atonement theology like the west.

Alright. Fair enough. I was misreading you.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2018, 05:09:32 PM »
What is "sanctification"    "justification"

What do they mean to youse ```

Sanctified means recieving god grace. Becoming a saint. This is a gift from god for the righteous.  Justification is knowledge of this gift.

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2018, 08:06:28 PM »
Thank you Tzimis ~ I didn't know ~ I've heard people talking, walking the fine line like lawyers concerning the Lord ~ sometimes when hairs are being split only they know what they mean ```




seth

Offline maneki_neko

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2018, 10:34:14 PM »
We can be certain that the saints have been saved. The reason why we choose them for veneration is because they were (and still are) close to God. If there was cause to suspect someone might be in hell the Church most definitely wouldn't encourage us to pray to them.

Maybe your priest was referring to saints here on earth? You may want to ask him about it to make sure you haven't misunderstood him.

This is how I thought it too. I'm pretty sure my priest was saying that we can't even know Saints in the icons are saved for certain either, however, which is what started my confusion. But I will ask him again at some point.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2018, 10:52:24 PM »
Perhaps it's more that we can't know anything the way God knows everything, if that makes sense?  Including the things of which we're reasonably sure.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Prayer to the Saints and Salvation
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2018, 01:12:13 PM »
I think ~ Our Lord ~ would not hold joy or pride of good works against his children ~ a Saint feeling uplifted and grand ~ with his or her closeness to God ~ even to the point where it showed on their person as a bright smile ```

me thinks ~ some judge in the area of thought ~ and second guess God ```

Holy is holy ~ looking for sin and hidden wrong somewhere deep ~ that seems going too far ~ toward judging ```