Author Topic: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)  (Read 1701 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2018, 12:18:11 AM »
You know, drive-by polemics are truly annoying.  And this is beginning to look like that.
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Online Volnutt

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2018, 02:35:17 AM »

 ~ I think I'll have a large brandy ~

setn

All the sailors say that she’s a fine girl.

What a good wife she would be.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Sethrak

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2018, 12:47:01 PM »
Brandy would not be a fine wife ~ passed around from dirty hand to filthy backroom ~ smelling of where she's been ``` Maybe she could be a barmaid ~ handling the drunk clients ~ if she wasn't in a habit of dipping in to the til ```

Think I'll have a large Ogei ~ with a with a water back ```
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 12:49:27 PM by Sethrak »

Offline Ainnir

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2018, 02:00:48 PM »
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Pretty close, Sethrak.  I don't think she dipped into the til or was passed around, though.
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Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2018, 12:34:55 PM »
(formal argument included)

1. God cannot fail
2. Failure is necessarily constitutive of normativity
3. If (1) and (2), then God isn't normative (or isn't bound by norms, or doesn't have normativity?)
4. If God isn't normative, then God only has dispositional states.
5. If God only has dispositional states, then God doesn't have thoughts, beliefs, or desires.
6. If God doesn't have thoughts, beliefs, or desires, then God doesn't have free will or agency.
7. Therefore, God doesn't have free will or agency.

I cleaned that up for you.
Deny subconclusion 3, premises 4, 5, 6 on the grounds that they have no demonstration. "Fail" in 1-2 is too ambiguous. "Is/isn't normative" is too vague in 2-4. "free will" and "agency" are too vague in 6-7. And I don't think you know what a dispositional state usually means. Free will is often thought to be a sort of dispositional state, e.g. P has free will if P is disposed to sometimes act freely.

Why does the rational agent choose A over B given the two options?

Offline Sethrak

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2018, 01:32:12 PM »
Mike, You are not wise ~ I'm sure this ~ your coming here to debate and prick at a few followers of Christ ~ of God ``` You don't know yet that you are a fool ~ I was years and years ago a fool of your caliber ~ well a bit better at it than you on the same subject ```
It's clear you have time on your hands and mind and think you're clever ~ no ~ brilliant ~ you may survive to and in years to come ~ grow up ~ to have wisdom ~ right now you're just a snot ~ a ~ snotty little minded twit  ~ excuse me Mike ~ you might even be a nice guy a fun friend ~ but ~ a bit of a dope is how you come across here ```

It will be good if you live long ~ not taken by sickness of the body or mind ~ and ~ grow and learn and look back to realize what you were at this stage in your development ```

No one has to beat you Mike ~ Life Will Beat You ~ and you will remember being told ```

So off you go Mike ~ straight ahead ~ chin up ~ confident ~ the world at you fingertips ```


Sethrak


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2018, 02:03:50 PM »
Mike, You are not wise ~ I'm sure this ~ your coming here to debate and prick at a few followers of Christ ~ of God ``` You don't know yet that you are a fool ~ I was years and years ago a fool of your caliber ~

And your talent has increased twofold.

Offline RobS

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2018, 03:04:32 PM »
P1) God cannot fail
P2) Failure is necessarily constitutive of normativity
C) God only has dispositional states

Entities with only dispositional states (rocks, lightning, etc.) have no agency or volitionality in virtue of their inability to have thoughts, beliefs, desires, etc... all of which are normative.
There are too many presuppositions to unpack here.

Why do you assume that agency is tied to an ability to have thoughts, beliefs and desires? What is "agency" tout court?

For me the problem here is you assume in your premise that God exists and what "exist" and "God" means.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Sethrak

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2018, 03:08:30 PM »
Well ~ than I withdraw ```

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2018, 03:46:27 PM »
Mike, You are not wise ~ I'm sure this ~ your coming here to debate and prick at a few followers of Christ ~ of God ``` You don't know yet that you are a fool ~ I was years and years ago a fool of your caliber ~ well a bit better at it than you on the same subject ```
It's clear you have time on your hands and mind and think you're clever ~ no ~ brilliant ~ you may survive to and in years to come ~ grow up ~ to have wisdom ~ right now you're just a snot ~ a ~ snotty little minded twit  ~ excuse me Mike ~ you might even be a nice guy a fun friend ~ but ~ a bit of a dope is how you come across here ```

It will be good if you live long ~ not taken by sickness of the body or mind ~ and ~ grow and learn and look back to realize what you were at this stage in your development ```

No one has to beat you Mike ~ Life Will Beat You ~ and you will remember being told ```

So off you go Mike ~ straight ahead ~ chin up ~ confident ~ the world at you fingertips ```


Sethrak

Thanks for your contribution.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2018, 03:48:36 PM »
P1) God cannot fail
P2) Failure is necessarily constitutive of normativity
C) God only has dispositional states

Entities with only dispositional states (rocks, lightning, etc.) have no agency or volitionality in virtue of their inability to have thoughts, beliefs, desires, etc... all of which are normative.
There are too many presuppositions to unpack here.

Why do you assume that agency is tied to an ability to have thoughts, beliefs and desires? What is "agency" tout court?

For me the problem here is you assume in your premise that God exists and what "exist" and "God" means.

That's what I'm trying to do here: qualify agency.  I'm offering the ability to fail (be out of accord with something) as a necessary constitutive element of normativity.

What does "exist" and "God" mean to you?

Offline RobS

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2018, 11:44:32 AM »
I won't give you arguments for the existence of God because a) none of the arguments are good and b) I don't care to argue or defend the philosopher's God
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: God has no free will or agency (formal argument included)
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2018, 12:13:38 PM »
I won't give you arguments for the existence of God because a) none of the arguments are good and b) I don't care to argue or defend the philosopher's God

I agree with you that there are no good arguments for God's existence.  I'm asking you about what God is to you (your God) and how that God exists.