Author Topic: Pope tells gay man that "God made you that way and loves you as you are"  (Read 3689 times)

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Offline biro

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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."

Yep.
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Offline Sethrak

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When Christians sin ~ they are to renounce the sin pray for forgiveness and sin no more ```
Sin is not to be made acceptable ```

We under stand , trying to make deviate sexual behavior on par with normal human activity so you/they can continue openly ~ if that be your/their bent ~ but if you/they ~ love of the Lord and believe in the Heavenly Kingdom and wish to inter ~ no amount of bargaining and implying normalcy  will get you/them there ```

Maybe you are good well meaning Christian people ~ who just want to show generosity toward ~ persons who derive fun and pleasure from diving into the sexual sewer ~ but you are not doing any favors ~ sending them to hell ```

Offline Sethrak

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1st Corinthians  6: 9-10

What does the above say to you ```

Offline Sharbel

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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."

Actually, we do.  And not only in hospitals, but occasionally in prisons too.
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Is being gay... attracted to the same sex (but not acting on it) a choice, and if it is not a choice can it be a sin?

I don't understand why Christians find it so hard to accept that people just might be born gay; it seems to fit in pretty well with historic attitudes on the fall of human nature. Might some people be pushed by lived experiences towards particular views of their own sexual orientations that they might not otherwise of have had? Perhaps, but it's all expression of innate propensities, not all that different than certain root causes of alcoholism or various psychiatric disorders.

I don't believe that same-sex attraction is a choice (at the very least in the vast majority of cases) nor that it is a sin in and of itself.

The problem is, if someone was born that way, they use that as an excuse to practice whatever "they were born with".
We see it with gays, transgenders, all other gender dysphoria bs, and now with pedophilia and beastiity.
Its easy to say, "Well i was born liking little kids/same sex/gender confusion/etc,  so its natural if i act upon it".

Thats the issue at hand. As being gay/pedophilia/beasitiality/trans/etc, is all unnatural, its all  sinfulI. I do not call people who havent acted on their inner thoughts sinners because ,they havent actually physically commited a sin. We've all thought horrible sinful things from murder to sexual acts & everything in between but when i was upset at someone and a thought popped into my head about running them over, i didnt say, "Well its natural if i do that since i was born like that, its ok its natural". People seem to eager to give in to whatever idea/act that pops up.in their heads nowadays.

Also ive seen alot of this "persecuted minorities" language being thrown around. Why is that? Should we just accept the moral degradation being heaped upon us by these sinful people because they are a minority of the population and feel oppressed?
As a parent, i see whats being pushed on the children today, its sickening.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 11:50:16 AM by Rubricnigel »

Offline Agabus

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We see it with gays, transgenders, all other gender dysphoria bs,
Even if you are not on board with contemporary methods for addressing it, to call gender dysphoira "bs" surpasses uncharitable behavior right into hateful territory. The dysphoria is specifically the emotional distress one feels for their inability to reconcile what they feel is correct and what their biology testifies. You are attacking them for trying to mentally address a real problem.

Quote
and now with pedophilia and beastiity.
Its easy to say, "Well i was born liking little kids/same sex/gender confusion/etc,  so its natural if i act upon it".
LOL. Never.

Yeah, I know you can probably find some outlier on the Internet, but the slippery slope just doesn't slide that far.

Quote
Thats the issue at hand. As being gay/pedophilia/beasitiality/trans/etc, is all unnatural, its all  sinfulI. I do not call people who havent acted on their inner thoughts sinners because ,they havent actually physically commited a sin. We've all thought horrible sinful things from murder to sexual acts & everything in between but when i was upset at someone and a thought popped into my head about running them over, i didnt say, "Well its natural if i do that since i was born like that, its ok its natural". People seem to eager to give in to whatever idea/act that pops up.in their heads nowadays.
You do get that having a thought is not the same thing as having a deeply ingrained ordering of your person, right?
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Offline biro

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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."

Actually, we do.  And not only in hospitals, but occasionally in prisons too.

Uh, no.

Plenty of sins are not crimes.

If having sex before you get married were a crime, nearly everyone in the world would be in jail.
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Offline biro

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When Christians sin ~ they are to renounce the sin pray for forgiveness and sin no more ```
Sin is not to be made acceptable ```

We under stand , trying to make deviate sexual behavior on par with normal human activity so you/they can continue openly ~ if that be your/their bent ~ but if you/they ~ love of the Lord and believe in the Heavenly Kingdom and wish to inter ~ no amount of bargaining and implying normalcy  will get you/them there ```

Maybe you are good well meaning Christian people ~ who just want to show generosity toward ~ persons who derive fun and pleasure from diving into the sexual sewer ~ but you are not doing any favors ~ sending them to hell ```

I'm not sending them to hell.

Again, stop with the tilde.

You just want to point out someone else's sin and judge them, which Christ said is forbidden. You want to ridicule and hate them.

I don't.

Big difference: you judge, I don't.

Let's hear about every sin you've ever committed, sexual or otherwise.

God did not allow the crowd to kill the woman found in adultery, and she had been *caught in the act.*

How much more, then, are we to forgive?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 03:22:03 PM by biro »
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Offline Sethrak

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You are judging ~ persons for their opinion and belief ```

Go ~ He Said ~ and sin no more ```
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 04:15:09 PM by Sethrak »

Offline Rohzek

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It seems to me that there is a big misunderstanding of those of us who say that people are born with biological factors that heavily influence whether or not they are homosexual or heterosexual. Those who deny the former, at least on this forum, I would hazard to guess would not say that heterosexuality is some sort of fabrication or social construction as well. This line of thinking is nothing more than a double standard based upon a very banal ignorance and possibly even a lack of interest of thinking deeply or a fear of being perplexed by a genuine challenge. The scientific data very much demonstrates that regardless of one's own sexual orientation, biology has an enormous say in its formation. These are well-established facts - facts that I've provided several studies for. Unless someone presents scientific studies to the contrary, this set of facts must be dealt with by all sides of the debate. Otherwise, they are just engaging in an act of intellectual masturbation.

Now onto the moral question. No one in this thread, as far as I can tell, have thus far argued that sexual intercourse between two members of the same sex is morally just. Nonetheless, there is enormous contention in this thread over the mere claim that people are born as homosexual. The fear is that allowing for the claim that homosexuality is based in biology leads to its moral justification. However, this line of thinking is known as the naturalistic fallacy. Just because something is natural, it does not therefore mean that it ought to be that way or is morally justified. It is true that those arguing in favor of LGBTQ+ rights have often employed the naturalistic fallacy as a part of their civil rights campaigns, at least in the USA (I can't speak for other nations). I happen to believe that they are entitled to these civil rights, even though I might disagree with some of their arguments, but that's a matter best left to the politics subforum, which I have no interest in every being a part of. David Hume wrought irreparable damage to the naturalistic fallacy centuries ago, yet it tends to rear its head again and again on all sides of all sorts of debates. On a more personal note, I find it very strange to encounter so many Orthodox Christians on this forum who have either implicitly or explicitly endorsed what amounts to as a natural law theory argument and have thus fallen into the naturalistic fallacy. Extreme natural law theory arguments of this sort pertaining to sexuality are more a part of Catholic theological culture than Orthodox. So, if I were to be polemical ever so briefly, those who have insisted the following idea - that what is moral must be natural & nothing more, and that therefore whatever is natural is necessarily moral - they are really just perpetuating the final remnants of the Western Captivity.

Returning to a more serious point, however, it seems to me that perhaps - and maybe I'm being too generous with my opponents here - that when either of us use the word nature, we mean two different things. When I use nature, I mean strictly the biological, whereas I would hazard to guess that when my opponents use nature, they mean what the ultimate telos of a creature is, which is union with God. In short, we're really talking past one another. Neither of these usages are mutually exclusive of one another. When I say God creates people as they are, and I am certain that this is the sense that Pope Francis intended as well (although I am in no position to ask him for confirmation), I mean to say that a person's entire existence, including their biological reality, is sustained by God because God is essence and being itself. This line of argument concerning God as being is fairly classical Christian thought, and perhaps the culture wars of today, which I myself find mind-numbingly stupid and vapid, have clouded many from perceiving that. So again, I do not deny nature in its sense of telos, nor do I deny the traditional Christian view on this matter - something I think I have consistently made clear throughout this thread. However, this consistent affirmation does not seem to have paved the way towards any sort of clarity. So I hope that this lengthy post clarifies the matter. As a matter of further interest, I think that this article is somewhat relevant to the subject: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2013/03/is-ought-and-natures-laws

Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."

Actually, we do.  And not only in hospitals, but occasionally in prisons too.

I just want to say that those behaviors that we do criminalize or medicalize under secular law, at least in the USA, tend to be ones that are perceived correctly or erroneously as socially disruptive. And even if it is socially disruptive, it still nonetheless varies as to whether it is addressed in criminal law or family law. A good example of the variance is how adultery is treated among the states in the USA. Most of the criminal laws on the books against adultery have been struck down in the USA on the basis that it violates privacy rights, etc. Nonetheless, adultery is still a matter of law in family law, especially in divorce proceedings. Yet there are plenty of things that we do not criminalize as well, especially pertaining to sex - such as masturbation. Masturbation is largely seen as a private act that does not disturb the social order, although that does not preclude a great many seeing it as morally neutral as well. At such a point, we as Christians have to refer to divine revelation in informing our own moral conduct. Yet we live an pluralistic society and it would be unjust to force everyone to live by our Christian standards. If anything we should convince them of these standards through conversion to the faith.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 05:56:11 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Tzimis

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What? I didnt get any of that.

Offline Rohzek

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What? I didnt get any of that.

PM me and I will be more than happy to clarify.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Sharbel

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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."

Actually, we do.  And not only in hospitals, but occasionally in prisons too.

Uh, no.

Plenty of sins are not crimes.

If having sex before you get married were a crime, nearly everyone in the world would be in jail.
There are such heterosexual depraved acts, which is what I was responding to, that can land someone in a hospital, like nymphomania, or in jail, like pedophilia.
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Offline Peter J

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Offline Opus118

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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."

Actually, we do.  And not only in hospitals, but occasionally in prisons too.

Uh, no.

Plenty of sins are not crimes.

If having sex before you get married were a crime, nearly everyone in the world would be in jail.
There are such heterosexual depraved acts, which is what I was responding to, that can land someone in a hospital, like nymphomania, or in jail, like pedophilia.
What is nymphomania that gets you into the hospital?
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Offline Peter J

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Since this post,

Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."

Actually, we do.  And not only in hospitals, but occasionally in prisons too.

has come up again I'll just say: you apparently responded to my post without reading it, so there doesn't seem much point responding to your response.
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Offline Rubricnigel

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We see it with gays, transgenders, all other gender dysphoria bs,
Even if you are not on board with contemporary methods for addressing it, to call gender dysphoira "bs" surpasses uncharitable behavior right into hateful territory. The dysphoria is specifically the emotional distress one feels for their inability to reconcile what they feel is correct and what their biology testifies. You are attacking them for trying to mentally address a real problem.

Quote
and now with pedophilia and beastiity.
Its easy to say, "Well i was born liking little kids/same sex/gender confusion/etc,  so its natural if i act upon it".
LOL. Never.

Yeah, I know you can probably find some outlier on the Internet, but the slippery slope just doesn't slide that far.

Quote
Thats the issue at hand. As being gay/pedophilia/beasitiality/trans/etc, is all unnatural, its all  sinfulI. I do not call people who havent acted on their inner thoughts sinners because ,they havent actually physically commited a sin. We've all thought horrible sinful things from murder to sexual acts & everything in between but when i was upset at someone and a thought popped into my head about running them over, i didnt say, "Well its natural if i do that since i was born like that, its ok its natural". People seem to eager to give in to whatever idea/act that pops up.in their heads nowadays.
You do get that having a thought is not the same thing as having a deeply ingrained ordering of your person, right?

They justify their thoughts as natural, im not making the claim. Deeply ingrained? Is that the devil, or do you believe that God made them gay, to then be judged? I dont think thats the case, i dont believe tbey are "born that way".

As for the slippery slope, we see it now. You dont have to look far to see the child indoctrination thats happening, transgender being nornalized to children in oublic schools, YouTube channels explicitly made for preteens explaining sex, gender dysphoria, etc. Its there, if you dont want to see it thats your problem. We see furrys being promoted now, to have an inner animal that must be acted out, cross species larping that usually involves sexual acts they call "yiffing".

As for your dysphoria comment, its not hateful to point out whats currently going on. Their mental grasping is based on the carnal urges, and not from a religious perspective. They justify their urges, and with societies blessing, instead of looking at it as a sin and trying to correct it. Its not hateful to point it out, its hateful to allow it.