Author Topic: Pope tells gay man that "God made you that way and loves you as you are"  (Read 3781 times)

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Offline Vanhyo

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First, you've missed the point of the scripture. As the basic question of the apostles demonstrates, it was thought that deformity indicates a sin on the part of either the parent or the blind man himself. Christ indicated that it was neither, that there was a third option, insofar that the issue had nothing to do with sin on anyone's part. Rather it was for the glorification of God. I think you neglect the fact too that divine punishment often does, although not always, include the affliction of blindness, as is evidenced in both the Old Testament and in the countless vitae (lives) of the saints.

Deformity not an act and most certainly not a sin, deformity may or may not be caused by sin (the reason could be any we are not aware of)

Your example have nothing to do with homosexuality. Acts of sodomy don't glorify God, on the contrary, such acts defile the image of God and mock the Creator.

You've made a logical error. First, you've equated being homosexual with the act of sexual intercourse between two members of the same sex. This is simply not the case. Second, although blindness itself does not glorify God, it is the triumph over it that glorifies Him. The same principle applies to triumphing over sexual temptation.
I did not make a mistake, a person who doesn't commit acts of homosexuality is not a homosexual, no matter how hard the devil scream in his mind that he is.

Is being gay... attracted to the same sex (but not acting on it) a choice, and if it is not a choice can it be a sin?

Second, you've said that even having homosexual inclinations or temptations is a sign of being in league with the devil. Such a rigid position is entirely untenable. It entirely ignores the fact that biology has a large role in determining sexual orientation.
Where did i say that ? repelling the demonic attacks is a good thing, homosexual inclinations do not belong to the human nature, they are an attack from outside. Accepting these inclinations as your own and acting upon them is same as merging your natural will and energy with that of demonism.

What you've just said is tantamount to Pelagianism. You're denying that human nature has been damaged.
What you've just said is tantamount to gibberish, because you are confused have no idea what you are talking about.

Offline Peter J

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that sentence should end "...but He loves you too much to leave you as you are."

See my question about giving homosexuals lobotomies.
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Offline Sharbel

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I find it rather telling that of the people who have posted here condemning this man or Pope Francis, none have considered the pastoral aspect, which the article is fairly up front about by indicating it was said in private. Furthermore, I find it telling that none of the posters so far have ever had the pastoral duties of a priest or bishop...
Then you haven't been paying attention:

Regrettably, I doubt that PP FI is even in the position of correcting the man's account of their conversation, even if the Pope were inclined to make sure that the public record about him is accurate, which he isn't.  It's quite possible that the Pope talked to the man in confidence, either sacramental confession or pastoral counseling, so he's not free to comment on their conversation.
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Offline Rohzek

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I find it rather telling that of the people who have posted here condemning this man or Pope Francis, none have considered the pastoral aspect, which the article is fairly up front about by indicating it was said in private. Furthermore, I find it telling that none of the posters so far have ever had the pastoral duties of a priest or bishop...
Then you haven't been paying attention:

Regrettably, I doubt that PP FI is even in the position of correcting the man's account of their conversation, even if the Pope were inclined to make sure that the public record about him is accurate, which he isn't.  It's quite possible that the Pope talked to the man in confidence, either sacramental confession or pastoral counseling, so he's not free to comment on their conversation.

I stand corrected Sharbel. My apologies.
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Offline Halik

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I don't understand why Christians find it so hard to accept that people just might be born gay

Maybe it is so, but this is controversially disputed. But homosexual behavior ist not allowed according to scripture and church teaching. In catholic reality no one cares. In my parish we have a married homosexual couple (an ex-priest), who are receiving communion without any problems. So the pope's position -if it is true- is not really surprising, it accepts the current catholic pastoral reality.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 03:22:18 AM by Halik »
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Until you are born again or baptised you are a child of adam with his sinful nature. After being born again you are a child of God.
We all took adam nature so we are born inclined to certain sins. That is why we don't judge the lost they don't have power to follow Christ commandments. The Pope meant this but he should clarify he does not mean that homosexuality is normal in God eyes but because of our sin nature.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 08:18:09 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Also after being born again you have ability to overcome but you can still struggle with some sins

Offline Alpha60

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He said that God made people who they are and loves them as is.

So God created homosexual feelings and behavior? Do I understand you right? Is this the orthodox position?

I'm not certain why you are linking two entirely separate questions with the conjunction "and" as though they are the same thing. I'll divide them. Does God create homosexual feelings? God creates everything, so absolutely yes. The question of behavior is another matter entirely. Behavior is a matter of personal agency and will. Creation has nothing to do with that.

God does not create evil or sin; these things are not creatures, but rather destructions; evil and sin are acts against the love of God.  Someone who embraces sin turns against God and will experience the consuming fire of divine love as wrath, which is why we must pray for everyone, sinners living and departed, and be quick to forgive.
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Offline Peter J

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I don't understand why Christians find it so hard to accept that people just might be born gay;

Many people, Christian and otherwise, have come to accept it in the last couple of generations.

The thing is, many people -- on both sides of these issues -- have conflated acceptance of gay people with acceptance of gay sex.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 01:32:50 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Sharbel

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I don't understand why Christians find it so hard to accept that people just might be born gay...
It could be, since there are many other mental illnesses which are congenital too, like schizophrenia, depression, autism, etc, even alcoholism, as some researchers suggested.

However, being hereditary or not, all illnesses need to be healed or managed and the patient, loved.
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Offline maneki_neko

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The thing is, many people -- on both sides of these issues -- have conflated acceptance of gay people with acceptance of gay sex.

Bingo.
I don't understand why Christians find it so hard to accept that people just might be born gay...
It could be, since there are many other mental illnesses which are congenital too, like schizophrenia, depression, autism, etc, even alcoholism, as some researchers suggested.

However, being hereditary or not, all illnesses need to be healed or managed and the patient, loved.

+1
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Offline 123abc

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Sometimes when I come to oc.net I have to double check to make sure I didn't stumble into the comment section of a CNN article.

Offline Rohzek

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I don't understand why Christians find it so hard to accept that people just might be born gay...
It could be, since there are many other mental illnesses which are congenital too, like schizophrenia, depression, autism, etc, even alcoholism, as some researchers suggested.

However, being hereditary or not, all illnesses need to be healed or managed and the patient, loved.

Again, even here, I don't think it is wise to frame homosexuality alongside schizophrenia and depression. Unlike autism etc., being gay is not socially disruptive nor does it impair someone from making a good living in society. It is partially on this basis that the medical community no longer considers it a medical disease. Alan Turing was murdered by his own country in the name of medical treatment. There is no treatment for homosexuality. One just struggles with its sexual inclinations (or embraces its sexual inclinations, if they want). We should prefer to stick to framing it in theological and moral terms, lest we repeat the mistakes of the past.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 09:54:47 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline Sethrak

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Unless he was born that way ```

Offline augustin717

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Unless he was born that way ```
dumb an a number of levels. It’s like making funny memes with pictures of the Armenian genocide.
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Offline Peter J

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The thing is, many people -- on both sides of these issues -- have conflated acceptance of gay people with acceptance of gay sex.

Bingo.


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Offline Hawkeye

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I don't understand why Christians find it so hard to accept that people just might be born gay; it seems to fit in pretty well with historic attitudes on the fall of human nature. Might some people be pushed by lived experiences towards particular views of their own sexual orientations that they might not otherwise of have had? Perhaps, but it's all expression of innate propensities, not all that different than certain root causes of alcoholism or various psychiatric disorders.

I don't believe that same-sex attraction is a choice (at the very least in the vast majority of cases) nor that it is a sin in and of itself.

This has been one of my major points all along, although I would like to add the caveat that medicalizing same-sex attractions has dangerous consequences. I think we should be more careful with our language. Alan Turing was murdered under the pretense of "treatment."

Certainly I agree. I was only categorizing it as a product of the fall alongside others of a personal sort, not suggesting that the proper response was mirrored in them.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Sharbel

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Alan Turing was murdered by his own country in the name of medical treatment.
Turing killed himself with cyanide.
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Offline Rohzek

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Alan Turing was murdered by his own country in the name of medical treatment.
Turing killed himself with cyanide.

Right, right after he was put through horrendous treatment, which had both psychological and physical effects.
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Well, I was gonna stay out of this thread, but in light of recent comments, I guess I'll wade in. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Pope Francis said. He said that God made people who they are and loves them as is. What specifically is wrong with this position? Where in the Gospels or the Epistles does one find any apostle or God Himself hating any part of creation? And while Young Earth Creationists (Yes, I'm referring here specifically to Vanhyo) here might flip their lids and crush their snowflakes over the fact that Pope Francis has dared to agree with the scientific consensus that biological factors have a major role in determining sexual orientation, such a position isn't even a point of doctrine in either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Let me repeat that, neither Orthodoxy nor Catholicism have a doctrinal position on what determine's a person's sexual orientation. That question has largely been left to empirical studies and science.

So for me, whether this report is accurate or not really does not matter too much.

And when i say that people who believe in evolution become mad and insane they say i am the insane.

Evolution is like a religion, theres blind faith and anger if someone opposed you.
That said  homosexuals arent born, they're made. Look at our modern world, ive seen kids shows that have gay kids and glamorise it. They promote and push degenerate behavior on our youth, trans, genderless, gender confusion and then add secual elements. Not to mention the rampant homosexuals who abuse kids.
       Evolutionists cant show gay animals, but yet push it on us as "normal".
       Father seraphrim rose was a homosexual in his youth but overcame the sin and worked to correct it. It's possible

Offline Jakoblaj

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Sometimes when I come to oc.net I have to double check to make sure I didn't stumble into the comment section of a CNN article.

My thoughts exactly.  I regret clicking on this thread....don't know what I was expecting however...

Offline RaphaCam

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Unless he was born that way ```
dumb an a number of levels. It’s like making funny memes with pictures of the Armenian genocide.
that really escalated quickly...
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Offline Rohzek

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Well, I was gonna stay out of this thread, but in light of recent comments, I guess I'll wade in. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Pope Francis said. He said that God made people who they are and loves them as is. What specifically is wrong with this position? Where in the Gospels or the Epistles does one find any apostle or God Himself hating any part of creation? And while Young Earth Creationists (Yes, I'm referring here specifically to Vanhyo) here might flip their lids and crush their snowflakes over the fact that Pope Francis has dared to agree with the scientific consensus that biological factors have a major role in determining sexual orientation, such a position isn't even a point of doctrine in either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Let me repeat that, neither Orthodoxy nor Catholicism have a doctrinal position on what determine's a person's sexual orientation. That question has largely been left to empirical studies and science.

So for me, whether this report is accurate or not really does not matter too much.

And when i say that people who believe in evolution become mad and insane they say i am the insane.

Evolution is like a religion, theres blind faith and anger if someone opposed you.

No, not really. I've met on occasion some really brilliant people who have had a large and positive influence on my life who were YEC. None of them post here, however. My problem with the YEC people here on this forum is the fact that they constantly accuse people of heresy. Nevermind the fact that their own knowledge of biblical exegesis is totally lacking nor do they understand that the Fathers read the scriptures in at least three or sometimes four different senses. With the exception of maybe the Antiochian school, which I admittedly don't have much reading experience with (perhaps I should read Theodore of Canterbury to amend that), most of the Fathers from the first millennium placed more religious importance on the spiritual and intellectual readings of scriptures over the literal. So when I saw one of them post here, again butchering science and apparently butchering an orthodox understanding of the Fall as well, I felt compelled to push back against such sheer ignorance, which ultimately seems rooted in some sort of emotional anxiety and perhaps even a culture war.

As for evolution being a religion itself, again, no it is not. Religions tend to have a large component of faith compared to its evidence base. Evolution, however, has overwhelming amounts of evidence.

That said  homosexuals arent born, they're made.

As I said before, this is factually incorrect. There is good data to show that in utero hormones have a pretty strong effect on the development of the child's sexual orientation. There are good studies on this subject. I will post their bibliographic information later in the week, since I am away from my books at the moment.

Not to mention the rampant homosexuals who abuse kids.

I see this claim often, but I almost never see statistical data to back it up. Do you have any to support the claim of "rampant" ?
 
       Evolutionists cant show gay animals, but yet push it on us as "normal".

But there are animals that have been observed to have been gay.
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Offline Rohzek

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Here is the bibliographic information I spoke of earlier:

Breedlove, S. M. (2000, March 30). Finger-length ratios and sexual orientation: Measuring people's finger patterns may reveal some surprising information. Nature 404, 455-456.

Collaer, M. L., Reimers, S., & Manning, J. T. (2007). Visuospatial performance on an Internet line judgment task and potential hormonal markers: Sex, sexual orientation, and 2D:4D. Archives of Sexual Behavior 36, 177-192.

Hines, M., Golombok et al. (2004). Androgen and psychosexual development: Core gender identity, sexual orientation, and recalled childhood gender role behavior in women and men with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH). Journal of Sex Research 41, 75-81.
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Offline biro

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Finger-length ratios?
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Offline Rohzek

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Finger-length ratios?

The logic goes as follows. Androgens heavily influences the finger-length ratios of humans. Men, who have higher exposure to androgen during fetal development, tend to have their index finger shorter than their ring finger. Meanwhile, women tend to have their index finger near-similar in length as their ring finger, although their might be slight differences. This difference between the sexes has been pinpointed to the androgen hormones. It has been found that women who have been exposed to high levels of androgen while in the womb, as demonstrated through their finger-length ratios, have a higher propensity of being lesbians than women who have been exposed to normal levels. That's not the entire bit, but the basic gist.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 11:06:16 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline LivenotoneviL

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There have been instances of Kangaroos throwing their offspring to dingos in the face of danger, instances of ducks committing necrophilia, instances of Prey Mantises eating the heads of their mate after intercourse, and during Jane Goodall's study, instances of Chimpanzee cannibalism.

I've always found the argument from of using positive actions in nature as a baseline of morality extremely flawed and annoying, considering the conclusions drawn from the data are often times subjective - that is, people have preconceived notions of what exactly is "normal", and then try to find instances of this "normal behavior." Also, most of the time, people ignore the environmental conditions which prohibit or encourage certain behavior and act as if the two are interchangeable. Nobody ever asks the question of Sexually Transmitted Diseases on the topic of Bonobo monkeys.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 07:21:20 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Vanhyo

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Quote
I've always found the argument from of using positive actions in nature as a baseline of morality extremely flawed and annoying, considering the conclusions drawn from the data are often times subjective - that is, people have preconceived notions of what exactly is "normal", and then try to find instances of this "normal behavior." Also, most of the time, people ignore the environmental conditions which prohibit or encourage certain behavior and act as if the two are interchangeable. Nobody ever asks the question of Sexually Transmitted Diseases on the topic of Bonobo monkeys.
After the fall, corruption was passed on all of creation, the argument is that if it is possible for the fallen creation to act good, then we should have the high standard for ourselves since we are meant to be the crown of creation, not the stinky sock of it.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 03:18:23 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Sethrak

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Freaks recruit ~ sexual deviates enlist ~ usually the young ~ but ~ seek out converts ~ Hollywood actively presented homosexual agenda over the last decades to make is seem natural ~ the political left wing worked hard to push it into the American culture ~ not just in the U.S. ~ other countries as well ```

Christians are told ~ it is not forbidden by your books ~ but it is ~ if we care to look ``` The Church Produced the Bible ~ The Bible did not produce the Church ``` Not each and every word that the Apostles told and taught us many thing ~ not every word was written down ~ there are reasons certain actions ~ things verbal and physical were though of as filthy , dirty ~ grossly wrong and shameful ~ our Church our Peoples our Culture didn't just one day decide it was sinful to have sex with animals ~ or ~ man lying with man as with woman ~ or ~ woman with woman ``` We were taught and believe ~ it was sin for reason ~ it is not natural it is choice ~ we ~ know that animals ~ dogs eat their own excreta and that of other animals ~ that in no way makes it natural for creatures made by God in His Own Image to follow ```







« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:07:05 PM by Sethrak »

Offline biro

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There is no Hollywood promotion. Gay people have been around since the times of the Bible.

Also, you really should stop with that thing with the tilde.
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Offline biro

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Quote
I've always found the argument from of using positive actions in nature as a baseline of morality extremely flawed and annoying, considering the conclusions drawn from the data are often times subjective - that is, people have preconceived notions of what exactly is "normal", and then try to find instances of this "normal behavior." Also, most of the time, people ignore the environmental conditions which prohibit or encourage certain behavior and act as if the two are interchangeable. Nobody ever asks the question of Sexually Transmitted Diseases on the topic of Bonobo monkeys.
After the fall, corruption was passed on all of creation, the argument is that if it is possible for the fallen creation to act good, then we should have the high standard for ourselves since we are meant to be the crown of creation, not the stinky sock of it.

We are not socks!

Everybody, remember that.
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Offline biro

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Unless he was born that way ```

That's not funny. And it's more disgusting than what anyone else has had to say.
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Offline Xavier

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This is probably just the current view of "pastoral charity". There was another report recently where Pope Francis warned against homosexuality in seminaries. If really pressed, the Pope would probably say he agrees with the Catechism on this issue; which while making every possible allowance for those who really struggle against disordered attraction, nonetheless clearly teaches it is wrong and how to overcome it. Until recently, about 1973, homosexuality was classified as a paraphilia or disordered attraction.

Quote
"Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Sethrak

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I would hope the Pope would want to cure the sick and bring back the wayward ```  Persons caught up in the want of a depraved act should be helped ~ not encouraged to continue with pride or accomplishment or right of choice ```


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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts, and most of them don't even go to Confession.

I'm sure you've done some terrible things in your time.

I'll say it again: homosexuality is not the only sin one can commit. Let's stop pretending that all heterosexuals make it into Heaven strictly on the virtue of their being heterosexual.

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Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline Rubricnigel

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There have been instances of Kangaroos throwing their offspring to dingos in the face of danger, instances of ducks committing necrophilia, instances of Prey Mantises eating the heads of their mate after intercourse, and during Jane Goodall's study, instances of Chimpanzee cannibalism.

I've always found the argument from of using positive actions in nature as a baseline of morality extremely flawed and annoying, considering the conclusions drawn from the data are often times subjective - that is, people have preconceived notions of what exactly is "normal", and then try to find instances of this "normal behavior." Also, most of the time, people ignore the environmental conditions which prohibit or encourage certain behavior and act as if the two are interchangeable. Nobody ever asks the question of Sexually Transmitted Diseases on the topic of Bonobo monkeys.

I always show this picture of a mouse showing its true nature of necrophilia to those that say, "humans are animals, and some animals are gay its normal".
      Animals are dumb.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts, and most of them don't even go to Confession.

I'm sure you've done some terrible things in your time.

I'll say it again: homosexuality is not the only sin one can commit. Let's stop pretending that all heterosexuals make it into Heaven strictly on the virtue of their being heterosexual.

No one believes that.

Offline Iconodule

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There should be an equivalent of Godwin's law for when someone busts out the dead mouse pr0n.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Brilko

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There should be an equivalent of Godwin's law for when someone busts out the dead mouse pr0n.

Why would there ever need to be a law for that???
:::scrolls up:::
Yyyeah.

Offline Agabus

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There should be an equivalent of Godwin's law for when someone busts out the dead mouse pr0n.

</thread>
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Sethrak

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Godwin's Law ~ I had to look it up ```

Yes ~ seem to hold true ```
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:11:55 PM by Sethrak »

Offline Peter J

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That said  homosexuals arent born, they're made.

We were all made by the same God. All of us, homosexual persons and heterosexual persons alike.
- Peter Jericho

Offline Peter J

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Heterosexuals get caught in plenty of depraved acts

True. And when they commit sin, we don't say "Oh we need to put this person in a hospital and fix him so that he isn't heterosexual anymore."
- Peter Jericho

Offline Tzimis

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That said  homosexuals arent born, they're made.

We were all made by the same God. All of us, homosexual persons and heterosexual persons alike.

People were all made good but, if we say that god made us sinners by nature. than we say it gods fault for all our shortcomings.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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That said  homosexuals arent born, they're made.

We were all made by the same God. All of us, homosexual persons and heterosexual persons alike.

People were all made good but, if we say that god made us sinners by nature. than we say it gods fault for all our shortcomings.

That's a good point, are we blaming God for man sins, instead of realizing we fall into sin due to our own free will, and due to the fall of our first ancestors, then again, some on here would doubt that even happened  ::)