Author Topic: The "argument" from incredulity  (Read 462 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
The "argument" from incredulity
« on: May 20, 2018, 09:51:49 PM »
How do you talk to someone who just says that the existence of God, life after death, religion in general just seems false to them on an intuitive level? Any thoughts?

I feel that way myself sometimes, to be honest. I just get that sense in my gut that if I died, that would be the end. I'm also sometimes terrified of the idea that before my brain completely shut off forever, I would have some final moment of humiliating realization, "there is no God, is there? I guess I was wro...." and that would be it. I know it's irrational, but still.

Does anybody else ever feel that way? I suppose skeptic ex-minister Dan Barker would respond that "the best way to deal with doubt is to just give in to it," but that seems as much of a cop out as does believing based solely on intuition. I don't know. Part of the issue is that my life is so lackluster right now and my future seems so bleak that I kind of want to die just to get it all over with and find out for certain (No I'm not going to kill myself, don't worry. I'm too afraid of the possibility of Hell and of abandoning my parents).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,961
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2018, 10:36:49 PM »
The Orthodox faith is a living faith, so the best remedy is Liturgy. Even outside Liturgy, other vivid expressions of our faith such as the mysteries of Holy Scripture, the wisdom of the Fathers, homilies, prayer, general aesthetics, these things that help people catch a glimpse of the faith, are more effective than long syllogisms. Not that our faith isn't rational, but "reason" (at least in the common concept of the word) isn't how one achieves unity with God, this kind of reason is subsidiary.

About your feeling of deadliness, we have a saying: "an empty mind is the devil's office". The worst period of my life had nothing to do with most of the common things that make teenagers suffer (parents' divorce, death in the family, substances, etc). It had a bit to do with girls, but the real deal was: I was too bored. Part-time job two days a week, university on strike, friends busy, so I basically sat in my room for five months. Maybe your bad feelings evapourate as soon as you're busy, and so I hope... Prayers.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Online Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,505
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2018, 10:45:24 PM »
I would say. Try and Enjoy your life. Life is truly a gift and if you aren't happy maybe there are little things you can do to change that.  Everybody thinks about death. Sometimes daliy.  Dieing just to findout the truth because you want empirical evidence.  Tells me you have a fascination with naturalism. It could be slight COD.
Btw: if you do find out. Make sure you reply to this thread and let us know whats on the other side😁

Offline Brilko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 173
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: ?
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2018, 11:13:39 PM »
I’m far too skeptical to embrace my doubts.

Take it from a cripple who rarely gets out of the house. There’s always something worth living for.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 08:59:45 PM »
The Orthodox faith is a living faith, so the best remedy is Liturgy. Even outside Liturgy, other vivid expressions of our faith such as the mysteries of Holy Scripture, the wisdom of the Fathers, homilies, prayer, general aesthetics, these things that help people catch a glimpse of the faith, are more effective than long syllogisms. Not that our faith isn't rational, but "reason" (at least in the common concept of the word) isn't how one achieves unity with God, this kind of reason is subsidiary.

About your feeling of deadliness, we have a saying: "an empty mind is the devil's office". The worst period of my life had nothing to do with most of the common things that make teenagers suffer (parents' divorce, death in the family, substances, etc). It had a bit to do with girls, but the real deal was: I was too bored. Part-time job two days a week, university on strike, friends busy, so I basically sat in my room for five months. Maybe your bad feelings evapourate as soon as you're busy, and so I hope... Prayers.

Yeah, I could believe that that would help. There's a reason I have that Reliant K quote in my signature lol.


Thanks for the advice and prayers, folks. I'm sorry if I frightened anyone.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 09:06:08 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 292
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 05:37:07 PM »
How do you talk to someone who just says that the existence of God, life after death, religion in general just seems false to them on an intuitive level? Any thoughts?

Seemings aren't good justifiers for beliefs.  That's why you shouldn't believe in a god or the after life because it seems to be the case.  That's arational.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,961
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 05:52:52 PM »
Seemings aren't good justifiers for beliefs.
Yes they are, silly, by definition of belief.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 06:33:31 PM »
How do you talk to someone who just says that the existence of God, life after death, religion in general just seems false to them on an intuitive level? Any thoughts?

Seemings aren't good justifiers for beliefs.  That's why you shouldn't believe in a god or the after life because it seems to be the case.  That's arational.

I agree. But they can be a good indicator from which directions you should lean. Of course, I suppose the seemings go different ways for different people so it balances out.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,054
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 06:39:36 PM »
Seemings get a lot of people killed.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2018, 06:47:55 PM »
Seemings get a lot of people killed.

I can see that. But at the same time, without seemings-without our senses declining us in one direction or another- we'd never do anything at all.

I guess the thing that really confuses me is what to do when the evidence you can perceive clashes with your intuitions. Ignoring them seems to be the best course, I agree, but that's also kind of a tough way to live.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Online Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,505
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2018, 07:06:05 PM »
I’m far too skeptical to embrace my doubts.

Take it from a cripple who rarely gets out of the house. There’s always something worth living for.
Words of wisdom!

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,931
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2018, 07:39:31 PM »
Yeah I know the feeling. Though seemings are what guide everyone in everything they do--whether the 'rational' justifications are influential (though never decisive) beforehand, or (as in 99% of cases) are tacked on afterwards.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 07:39:56 PM by Asteriktos »
"We are all human beans. What is left now is for each of us to grow to our full potential in Christ." - Abba Hezekiah

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,656
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: The "argument" from incredulity
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2018, 07:47:29 PM »
Yeah I know the feeling. Though seemings are what guide everyone in everything they do--whether the 'rational' justifications are influential (though never decisive) beforehand, or (as in 99% of cases) are tacked on afterwards.

Another issue is that I can tell that my intuitions are influenced to a large extent by my desires- both sexual and the desire to not have as much tension and angst when it comes to certain social stances.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.