Author Topic: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine  (Read 2627 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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Would anyone know of a very concise article which presents a simple list of statements made by St. Augustine which are either incompatible with Orthodox theology, or otherwise potentially confusing, and the works in which they are contained?

I very much admire St. Augustine and respect him as a saint, and would just like a sort of Cliff Notes regarding any errors he may have made, if such a thing exists, so that I can enjoy reading his works in a relaxed manner.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2018, 12:31:45 AM »
I'm sure Fr. John Romanides has plenty about it, some available in English online, so you can google it, but I'd rather not look into this stuff.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2018, 09:00:09 AM »
I'm sure Fr. John Romanides has plenty about it, some available in English online, so you can google it, but I'd rather not look into this stuff.

His material on the subject is extremely polemical, and I am not sure it represents anything approaching an Orthodox consensus on the subject.  I am looking for something from an Orthodox writer who appreciates St. Augustine and recognizes him as an important saint.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline The least of all

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2018, 12:27:37 PM »
Why would someone who reveres Augustine as a saint write a book on his theological errors? Most of the writings by modern Orthodox on Augustine are typically defending his works and sometimes writing away (what I would call) his errors. Those who write against Augustine are typically in the same line of thought as Romanides even if less polemical but they arent heaping up praise for Augustine as usually. Some have called him a great ecclesiastical writer or some other such title to avoid calling him saint while discussing his errors.

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2018, 01:16:45 PM »
I am not aware of any singular work that presents a balanced Orthodox assessment of St. Augustine. There are either pro-Augustine writings or anti-Augustine writings. The anti are fairly easy to find. I was only about to find this pro-work via google search: https://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Augustine-Orthodox-Church-Theological/dp/0938635123/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 . I cannot speak for its quality, as I've never read it. Perhaps just read both sides and reach your own conclusions?

Personally, I would suggest just reading St. Augustine himself. I mean, there are some fairly obvious points most Orthodox would disagree with him on, such as predestination, total depravity, etc. Otherwise, I would just recommend some modicum on patience when reading him. Many of his works still remain untranslated from their original Latin. So when he does say something that is disconcerting, just remember that there is a good chance he either changed his mind later on or provides more clarity on the subject in another work, which might very well remain untranslated.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline The least of all

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2018, 01:27:32 PM »
Does one simply have to assume that Augustine "likely got it right" later on in life? Much Roman Catholic variance with Orthodoxy is based in Augustinian thought and the Orthodox continued to develop their Theology without his works in their midst or with it in an unreadable language. Maybe if he got it wrong, he really was just wrong?

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 01:38:06 PM »
Does one simply have to assume that Augustine "likely got it right" later on in life?

No, one does not have to assume that.

Much Roman Catholic variance with Orthodoxy is based in Augustinian thought and the Orthodox continued to develop their Theology without his works in their midst or with it in an unreadable language. Maybe if he got it wrong, he really was just wrong?

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I am not certain why you are retrofitting the schism onto first millennium Latin Orthodoxy. A large amount of the Orthodox world did in fact develop using his thought.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline The least of all

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2018, 02:45:06 PM »
Quote
I am not certain why you are retrofitting the schism onto first millennium Latin Orthodoxy. A large amount of the Orthodox world did in fact develop using his thought.

It would seem that the historical record shows that first century latin christianity slowly developed into a very different entity than that of the Greek or Syriac speaking East. It would be ignoring history to see the schism as simply a 'one-off' rather than a culmination of many tensions which had been growing previous to that event. The Orthodox, for example, have never given credence to or cared about the Council of Orange which affirmed much of Augustine's theological system.

One cannot simply assume that because communion hadn't broken earlier that there werent already preexisting tensions. A similar case can be considered regarding the Council of Ephesus with with Syrian and Greek modes of thought meeting and initially grinding, having to find common ground in St. Cyril of Alexandria's letter to John.

The East and West may have been in communion but were separated by Empire, Language, modes of thought, space and ultimately theology far before the schism. I am hard-pressed to believe much of The Greek speaking East, with little access to Augustine's works, developed using his thought as you say.

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2018, 03:04:33 PM »
Quote
I am not certain why you are retrofitting the schism onto first millennium Latin Orthodoxy. A large amount of the Orthodox world did in fact develop using his thought.

It would seem that the historical record shows that first century latin christianity slowly developed into a very different entity than that of the Greek or Syriac speaking East. It would be ignoring history to see the schism as simply a 'one-off' rather than a culmination of many tensions which had been growing previous to that event. The Orthodox, for example, have never given credence to or cared about the Council of Orange which affirmed much of Augustine's theological system.

One cannot simply assume that because communion hadn't broken earlier that there werent already preexisting tensions. A similar case can be considered regarding the Council of Ephesus with with Syrian and Greek modes of thought meeting and initially grinding, having to find common ground in St. Cyril of Alexandria's letter to John.

The East and West may have been in communion but were separated by Empire, Language, modes of thought, space and ultimately theology far before the schism. I am hard-pressed to believe much of The Greek speaking East, with little access to Augustine's works, developed using his thought as you say.

Prayers

I never claimed that the Greek East developed using Augustinian thought. What I did claim though was that Latin Orthodoxy did. Furthermore, the Council of Orange was relatively minor until the 9th century in terms of its esteem. Yet, even those ninth-century debates on the role of grace and free will ultimately proved inconclusive, which is why the issue remained a theological debate into the scholastic period. It is not correct to simply state, "Latin Orthodoxy had the Council of Orange and that accurately describes them in their entirety," precisely because it does not.

And while I certainly do not deny that the Latin West's departure from Orthodoxy was a long-term historical process, placing these outcomes on St. Augustine is far from accurate or appropriate.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Volnutt

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2018, 03:27:35 PM »
I love the ending of every polemical post with "prayers." I tip my hat to you, sir or madam! Beautifully passive aggressive.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2018, 03:31:47 PM »
I am not aware of any singular work that presents a balanced Orthodox assessment of St. Augustine. There are either pro-Augustine writings or anti-Augustine writings. The anti are fairly easy to find. I was only about to find this pro-work via google search: https://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Augustine-Orthodox-Church-Theological/dp/0938635123/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 . I cannot speak for its quality, as I've never read it. Perhaps just read both sides and reach your own conclusions?

Personally, I would suggest just reading St. Augustine himself. I mean, there are some fairly obvious points most Orthodox would disagree with him on, such as predestination, total depravity, etc. Otherwise, I would just recommend some modicum on patience when reading him. Many of his works still remain untranslated from their original Latin. So when he does say something that is disconcerting, just remember that there is a good chance he either changed his mind later on or provides more clarity on the subject in another work, which might very well remain untranslated.

There's some St. Augustine that's still untranslated into English? Holy crap, I had no idea! I would have thought that over the centuries, somebody- Catholic or Protestant- would have finished him up.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 03:32:00 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline The least of all

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2018, 06:02:15 PM »
I did not actually say that all the errors stem from the council of Orange as I merely listed it as an example of an early development which did receive early attention in the West. I do believe Augustine had a very strong influence on the development of Western Christianity especially as it came to be formulated in the scholastic age where the theological underpinnings come from the theology of Augustine. I do not make a sweeping generalization in saying this, though.

Since when has it been polemical to have a discussion? Since when has it been polemical to engage in dialogue about the fathers and their influence or lack thereof?

Almost all my messages end in "prayers" as I ask for yours and offer you mine.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2018, 07:12:46 PM »
I did not actually say that all the errors stem from the council of Orange as I merely listed it as an example of an early development which did receive early attention in the West. I do believe Augustine had a very strong influence on the development of Western Christianity especially as it came to be formulated in the scholastic age where the theological underpinnings come from the theology of Augustine. I do not make a sweeping generalization in saying this, though.

Since when has it been polemical to have a discussion? Since when has it been polemical to engage in dialogue about the fathers and their influence or lack thereof?

Almost all my messages end in "prayers" as I ask for yours and offer you mine.

The posts attacking the West followed by "prayers" looked passive aggressive to me, similar to some other posters I won't name. Looking back over your post history, it at least looks like you do that a lot in other contexts though.

My apologies for jumping the gun.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Alpo

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2018, 07:38:35 PM »
I was only about to find this pro-work via google search: https://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Augustine-Orthodox-Church-Theological/dp/0938635123/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 . I cannot speak for its quality, as I've never read it.

It's been some years since I've read it but I remember liking it. It's not lousy apology but rather recognizing what positive influence St. Augustine had for the whole church. IMO various Orthodox make too much big deal of his hypothetical errors. All Fathers make mistakes but that doesn't invalid their sainthood.

In addition to that I'd recommend Orthodox Readings of Augustine
https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Readings-Augustine-George-Demacopoulos/dp/0881413275

Quote
Personally, I would suggest just reading St. Augustine himself. I mean, there are some fairly obvious points most Orthodox would disagree with him on, such as predestination, total depravity, etc. Otherwise, I would just recommend some modicum on patience when reading him.

+1

From what I've read from him instead of him I've yet to see much I'd disagree with. Protestant interpretation of Augustine is not the same as Augustine.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 07:39:30 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Volnutt

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2018, 07:49:45 PM »
Part of the problem is that if you go too far in reacting to Original Sin and Predestination, then it seems like you wind up in Pelagianism and/or OVT. From what I've heard a lot of Orthodox seem to be unwitting (Semi-)Pelagians already, so of course they wouldn't like St. Augustine.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2018, 08:02:37 PM »
From what I've heard a lot of Orthodox seem to be unwitting (Semi-)Pelagians already, so of course they wouldn't like St. Augustine.

Nope. A lot of Orthodox lack soteriological vocabulary as soteriology has never been an issue in Orthosphere. Thus it is quite understandable that the Orthodox might express their soteriology differently from RCs, Calvinists etc.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 08:03:13 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Volnutt

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2018, 08:07:07 PM »
From what I've heard a lot of Orthodox seem to be unwitting (Semi-)Pelagians already, so of course they wouldn't like St. Augustine.

Nope. A lot of Orthodox lack soteriological vocabulary as soteriology has never been an issue in Orthosphere. Thus it is quite understandable that the Orthodox might express their soteriology differently from RCs, Calvinists etc.

Generally I agree, but I think it becomes a problem when they emphasize "synergeia" so much that they lose sight of our will's need for the animating Grace of God.

EDIT: See the extended conversation beginning here.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 08:14:36 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2018, 09:08:59 PM »
I did not actually say that all the errors stem from the council of Orange as I merely listed it as an example of an early development which did receive early attention in the West. I do believe Augustine had a very strong influence on the development of Western Christianity especially as it came to be formulated in the scholastic age where the theological underpinnings come from the theology of Augustine. I do not make a sweeping generalization in saying this, though.

Since when has it been polemical to have a discussion? Since when has it been polemical to engage in dialogue about the fathers and their influence or lack thereof?

Almost all my messages end in "prayers" as I ask for yours and offer you mine.

I think you're right to say that St. Augustine had an enormous influence on the Latin West, during its Orthodoxy and after, for better and for worse. Could you be more precise, however, in your critiques of scholasticism and St. Augustine's hand it, if you don't mind?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 09:09:13 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2018, 09:32:36 PM »
I was only about to find this pro-work via google search: https://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Augustine-Orthodox-Church-Theological/dp/0938635123/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 . I cannot speak for its quality, as I've never read it.

It's been some years since I've read it but I remember liking it. It's not lousy apology but rather recognizing what positive influence St. Augustine had for the whole church. IMO various Orthodox make too much big deal of his hypothetical errors. All Fathers make mistakes but that doesn't invalid their sainthood.

In addition to that I'd recommend Orthodox Readings of Augustine
https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Readings-Augustine-George-Demacopoulos/dp/0881413275

Quote
Personally, I would suggest just reading St. Augustine himself. I mean, there are some fairly obvious points most Orthodox would disagree with him on, such as predestination, total depravity, etc. Otherwise, I would just recommend some modicum on patience when reading him.

+1

From what I've read from him instead of him I've yet to see much I'd disagree with. Protestant interpretation of Augustine is not the same as Augustine.

Orthodox Readings of Augustine is specifically what I am trying to avoid; I am in search of a condensed version thereof (on the other hand, Orthodox Readings of Aquinas looks interesting for ecumenical reasons).

Actually I kind of object to the title of Orthodox Readings of Augustine, because St. Augustine is a saint in the Orthodox Church and the errors he made do not detract from that. 

Does one simply have to assume that Augustine "likely got it right" later on in life? Much Roman Catholic variance with Orthodoxy is based in Augustinian thought and the Orthodox continued to develop their Theology without his works in their midst or with it in an unreadable language. Maybe if he got it wrong, he really was just wrong?

Prayers

St. Augustine wrote a book towards the end of his life which did contain a list of retractions of theological statements he had written which he realized were in error.   This list however does not precisely correlate with a typical set of Orthodox objections.

~

What prompted this thread by the way was an article which I now realize was intolerably polemical, which sought to accuse St. Augustine of Platonism and which sought to blame the entire Filioque controversy on De Trinitate, which, given some thought, seems an absurd proposition.

In the case of Origen, we have the Philocalia of writings of his deemed valuable and safe for Orthodox consumption, compiled by the Cappadocians (not to be confused with the Philokalia of Sts. Macarius and Nicodemus, which is an anthology of ascetic texts largely related to the practice of Hesychasm).   Origen is not generally venerated as an Orthodox saint, whereas St. Augustine is.  So the advice given to simply read St. Augustine while bearing in mind the objections most frequently raised to his theological works, which center around Soteriology and what we might consider his overreaction to Pelagianism (in contrast to the more correct approach of St. John Cassian), should be sufficient.

I would like to see something like a Philocalia of the works of various RC saints, which would be useful in the ecumenical context.  For that matter, a Philocalia of Tertullian and the writings of certain other heretics; I recently came across a quote from the Bazaar of Heraclides by Nestorius, who is a heresiarch that I am not a fan of, which was nonetheless greatly edifying.

*The word Philocalia or Philokalia means “love of beauty” and in the context of Orthodox theological literature, generally refers to an anthology or compilation of spiritual texts by one or more authors, the two main examples being the Philocalia of Origen by the Cappadocian fathers and the Philokalia of ascetic texts by Sts. Macarius and Nicodemus the Hagiorite.
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- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2018, 11:15:16 PM »
Actually I kind of object to the title of Orthodox Readings of Augustine, because St. Augustine is a saint in the Orthodox Church and the errors he made do not detract from that. 

I think you're reading into the title and content of the book a view that isn't there. Besides texts by several Roman Catholic authors there are also Orthodox contributions by people like Fr. John Behr and Fr. Andrew Louth. I'm guessing: the contributors are orthodox, and these are their 'readings' of Augustine's work.
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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2018, 11:53:38 PM »
Isn't the Retractions like 90% just doubling down?
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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2018, 01:26:54 AM »
Isn't the Retractions like 90% just doubling down?
It's mostly clarification.
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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2018, 12:43:19 PM »
I'm sure Fr. John Romanides has plenty about it, some available in English online, so you can google it, but I'd rather not look into this stuff.

Beware of Fr. John. Though I like a lot of his materials when it comes to St. Augustine he really goes off the deep end.  He sees errors in Augustine that aren't there and he often lays at Augustine's feet errors that were committed by Medieval Catholics and Protestants.
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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2018, 06:43:50 PM »
Would anyone know of a very concise article which presents a simple list of statements made by St. Augustine which are either incompatible with Orthodox theology, or otherwise potentially confusing, and the works in which they are contained?

I very much admire St. Augustine and respect him as a saint, and would just like a sort of Cliff Notes regarding any errors he may have made, if such a thing exists, so that I can enjoy reading his works in a relaxed manner.



This is what I found while searching :     

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_augustine.shtml
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:44:08 PM by Jude1:3 »

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2018, 06:56:23 PM »
Would anyone know of a very concise article which presents a simple list of statements made by St. Augustine which are either incompatible with Orthodox theology, or otherwise potentially confusing, and the works in which they are contained?

I very much admire St. Augustine and respect him as a saint, and would just like a sort of Cliff Notes regarding any errors he may have made, if such a thing exists, so that I can enjoy reading his works in a relaxed manner.



This is what I found while searching :     

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_augustine.shtml

Uses an Ethiopian icon as an avatar, links to a website that calls them Monophysites.


K...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2018, 07:47:43 PM »
Would anyone know of a very concise article which presents a simple list of statements made by St. Augustine which are either incompatible with Orthodox theology, or otherwise potentially confusing, and the works in which they are contained?

I very much admire St. Augustine and respect him as a saint, and would just like a sort of Cliff Notes regarding any errors he may have made, if such a thing exists, so that I can enjoy reading his works in a relaxed manner.



This is what I found while searching :     

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_augustine.shtml

Uses an Ethiopian icon as an avatar, links to a website that calls them Monophysites.


K...



Leave me alone and stop criticizing me. I haven't done anything to you.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2018, 08:16:25 PM »
Would anyone know of a very concise article which presents a simple list of statements made by St. Augustine which are either incompatible with Orthodox theology, or otherwise potentially confusing, and the works in which they are contained?

I very much admire St. Augustine and respect him as a saint, and would just like a sort of Cliff Notes regarding any errors he may have made, if such a thing exists, so that I can enjoy reading his works in a relaxed manner.



This is what I found while searching :     

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_augustine.shtml

Uses an Ethiopian icon as an avatar, links to a website that calls them Monophysites.


K...



Leave me alone and stop criticizing me. I haven't done anything to you.

How many fingers am I holding up.








Sorry, couldn't resist. In all seriousness, posting links with no comment from nutjob schismatic sites as though they were serious resources is not a good look. I just found the most obvious incongruity amusing.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 08:16:57 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Maximilian

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 02:44:42 AM »
Would anyone know of a very concise article which presents a simple list of statements made by St. Augustine which are either incompatible with Orthodox theology, or otherwise potentially confusing, and the works in which they are contained?

I very much admire St. Augustine and respect him as a saint, and would just like a sort of Cliff Notes regarding any errors he may have made, if such a thing exists, so that I can enjoy reading his works in a relaxed manner.


This is what I found while searching :     

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_augustine.shtml

Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 02:45:58 AM by Maximilian »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 03:21:18 AM »
Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...

Considering that the owner of this forum is a 'true/genuine Orthodox' Christian, I'm guessing such sites won't be banned any time soon ;) (though I don't expect any type of non-obscene sites to be banned)
"We are all human beans. What is left now is for each of us to grow to our full potential in Christ." - Abba Hezekiah

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 06:24:16 AM »
I'm sure Fr. John Romanides has plenty about it, some available in English online, so you can google it, but I'd rather not look into this stuff.

Beware of Fr. John. Though I like a lot of his materials when it comes to St. Augustine he really goes off the deep end.  He sees errors in Augustine that aren't there and he often lays at Augustine's feet errors that were committed by Medieval Catholics and Protestants.
Yeah, that's why I don't look into it. I'd rather hear what Ss. Gennadius Scholarius, Seraphim of Platina or the fathers of the Second Council of Constantinople have to say about him.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Maximilian

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2018, 07:41:21 AM »
Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...

Considering that the owner of this forum is a 'true/genuine Orthodox' Christian, I'm guessing such sites won't be banned any time soon ;) (though I don't expect any type of non-obscene sites to be banned)

This is unacceptable. There should be a disclaimer placed front-and-center on the homepage to indicate that this forum is administered by a member of a fringe communion. I am certain that many unaware and unsuspecting people have, like me, been misled into thinking this was a website for the Orthodox communion.

To conceal this fact is, at best, dishonest. If you are going to dissent from the Orthodox communion, you should at least be willing to stand behind that schismatic behaviour.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:43:31 AM by Maximilian »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2018, 07:54:42 AM »
Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...

Considering that the owner of this forum is a 'true/genuine Orthodox' Christian, I'm guessing such sites won't be banned any time soon ;) (though I don't expect any type of non-obscene sites to be banned)

This is unacceptable. There should be a disclaimer placed front-and-center on the homepage to indicate that this forum is administered by a member of a fringe communion. I am certain that many unaware and unsuspecting people have, like me, been misled into thinking this was a website for the Orthodox communion.

To conceal this fact is, at best, dishonest. If you are going to dissent from the Orthodox communion, you should at least be willing to stand behind that schismatic behaviour.

Why didn't you put in your signature front and center that you were against such things? For you not to have done so seems dishonest and, frankly, a little cowardly. Why exactly are you trying to hide your prejudices, Mr. Man? Could it be that you're a 'World Orthodox' infiltrator operating on the EP's dime?
"We are all human beans. What is left now is for each of us to grow to our full potential in Christ." - Abba Hezekiah

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2018, 08:03:26 AM »
Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...

Considering that the owner of this forum is a 'true/genuine Orthodox' Christian, I'm guessing such sites won't be banned any time soon ;) (though I don't expect any type of non-obscene sites to be banned)

This is unacceptable. There should be a disclaimer placed front-and-center on the homepage to indicate that this forum is administered by a member of a fringe communion. I am certain that many unaware and unsuspecting people have, like me, been misled into thinking this was a website for the Orthodox communion.

To conceal this fact is, at best, dishonest. If you are going to dissent from the Orthodox communion, you should at least be willing to stand behind that schismatic behaviour.
TBH, the "True Orthodox" identification is usually related to Old Calendarism.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Maximilian

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2018, 09:06:52 AM »
Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...

Considering that the owner of this forum is a 'true/genuine Orthodox' Christian, I'm guessing such sites won't be banned any time soon ;) (though I don't expect any type of non-obscene sites to be banned)

This is unacceptable. There should be a disclaimer placed front-and-center on the homepage to indicate that this forum is administered by a member of a fringe communion. I am certain that many unaware and unsuspecting people have, like me, been misled into thinking this was a website for the Orthodox communion.

To conceal this fact is, at best, dishonest. If you are going to dissent from the Orthodox communion, you should at least be willing to stand behind that schismatic behaviour.

Why didn't you put in your signature front and center that you were against such things? For you not to have done so seems dishonest and, frankly, a little cowardly. Why exactly are you trying to hide your prejudices, Mr. Man? Could it be that you're a 'World Orthodox' infiltrator operating on the EP's dime?

My affiliation is clearly stated under my profile. I can't say the same for this website, or you, for that matter.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:07:42 AM by Maximilian »

Offline Rohzek

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2018, 10:09:25 AM »
Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...

Considering that the owner of this forum is a 'true/genuine Orthodox' Christian, I'm guessing such sites won't be banned any time soon ;) (though I don't expect any type of non-obscene sites to be banned)

This is unacceptable. There should be a disclaimer placed front-and-center on the homepage to indicate that this forum is administered by a member of a fringe communion. I am certain that many unaware and unsuspecting people have, like me, been misled into thinking this was a website for the Orthodox communion.

To conceal this fact is, at best, dishonest. If you are going to dissent from the Orthodox communion, you should at least be willing to stand behind that schismatic behaviour.

Why didn't you put in your signature front and center that you were against such things? For you not to have done so seems dishonest and, frankly, a little cowardly. Why exactly are you trying to hide your prejudices, Mr. Man? Could it be that you're a 'World Orthodox' infiltrator operating on the EP's dime?

My affiliation is clearly stated under my profile. I can't say the same for this website, or you, for that matter.

The web owner actually has on the front page that he published a book on Old Calendarism. Furthermore, in his forum profile, he has his affiliation clearly listed. It's going a little too far to say that his is concealing it. As for the web owner and a the top dog admins, their names are listed clearly in the Rules section of the forum. Then at last, you have this said in the forum's explicit and clear statement of purpose:

Quote
A concrete example (that comes up frequently): Eastern Rite Catholics may have called themselves Orthodox for some time but regardless of nomenclature, they are not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  Vagantes are likewise not recognized by the Orthodox as Orthodox.  With the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Oriental Orthodox/Non-Chalcedonians, there are varying degrees of opinion between the three groups, such that a broad discussion forum about Orthodoxy would lead to discussion on topics concerning all three groups, and we wanted to create a place where all three would be welcome to post, within the limits of civil discourse.  We have no interest in broadening the scope to include Eastern Catholics, who are in submission to the Pope and have adopted many Roman Catholic innovations, or vagantes, who have no way of being measured or quantified.  We have to draw the line somewhere, and that is how we have chosen to draw it.  Naturally, Byzantine Catholics and vagantes are welcome to post here, but they have to recognize that they are on an Orthodox forum, which does not accept that they are "Orthodox in communion with Rome."  Latin Catholics and Protestants and anyone else of good will is also welcome to post, as long as they understand the purpose of the forum and the boundaries.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2018, 11:04:26 AM »
Is posting schismatic 'True/Genuine Orthodox' websites allowed on this forum? They succeed mostly by adopting the disguise of an Orthodox organisation, hiding the fact that they're composed of like 100 people in Arizona. I think it might mislead people unfamiliar with their deceit...

Considering that the owner of this forum is a 'true/genuine Orthodox' Christian, I'm guessing such sites won't be banned any time soon ;) (though I don't expect any type of non-obscene sites to be banned)

This is unacceptable. There should be a disclaimer placed front-and-center on the homepage to indicate that this forum is administered by a member of a fringe communion. I am certain that many unaware and unsuspecting people have, like me, been misled into thinking this was a website for the Orthodox communion.

To conceal this fact is, at best, dishonest. If you are going to dissent from the Orthodox communion, you should at least be willing to stand behind that schismatic behaviour.

Why didn't you put in your signature front and center that you were against such things? For you not to have done so seems dishonest and, frankly, a little cowardly. Why exactly are you trying to hide your prejudices, Mr. Man? Could it be that you're a 'World Orthodox' infiltrator operating on the EP's dime?

My affiliation is clearly stated under my profile. I can't say the same for this website, or you, for that matter.

No, it says that you're affiliated with a group calling itself the "[Orthodox] Eparchy of Frankfurt and all Germany." The fact that that's the name of the official Orthodox Church in that area doesn't necessarily preclude some insignificant vagante group from also using the name.

Catch my meaning? This is going to get into Kafka territory pretty fast if we don't give one another a bit of charity.

EDIT: Also, the owner of this site is an Old Calendarist, but with all respect to Anastasios, he almost never posts and the rest of the staff is mainstream Orthodox (and OO).




Tfw I go from slagging off an Old Calendarist site to defending them less than ten posts later.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 11:12:26 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Aaron6127

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Re: I am looking for a brief summary of errors of St. Augustine
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2018, 08:31:07 AM »
I'm sure Fr. John Romanides has plenty about it, some available in English online, so you can google it, but I'd rather not look into this stuff.

His material on the subject is extremely polemical, and I am not sure it represents anything approaching an Orthodox consensus on the subject.  I am looking for something from an Orthodox writer who appreciates St. Augustine and recognizes him as an important saint.

+1
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