Author Topic: To Xavier  (Read 1334 times)

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Offline Jackson02

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To Xavier
« on: April 21, 2018, 08:47:40 PM »
What do you think about the Sedevacantist movement?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2018, 01:46:28 AM »
In a certain way we're all sedevacantists, but our sede vacante claims are way older than the sixties.  :P
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Offline Wandile

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2018, 04:50:13 AM »
Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable. Just my two cents.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline 123abc

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 08:14:52 AM »
Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable. Just my two cents.

All traditionalist movements within the RCC are intellectually dishonest in one fashion or another.

Sedevacantism= I accept that the pope is supreme in faith, morals, jurisdiction and disciplinary measures. He has no singular equal or even if the entire Church and all Her bishops get together in an Ecumenical Council he is still supreme. Vatican I was fantastic and in some ways didn't go far enough. Pope (I am Tradition) Pius IX is one of the greatest popes of all time.

Having said all that I have determined through my own abilities that the last 5 or 6 claimants to the papal throne were/are frauds because they contradict previous Catholic teaching. Therefore I'm really the supreme authority in the Church.

Recognize and Resist(SSPX)= I accept everything stated above regarding the pope and his authority but I have decided to pick and choose which doctrinal and disciplinary statements and practices I will accept. I also refuse to have anything to do with the Mass officially promulgated by a pope and an Ecumenical Council because it is harmful to the piety of Catholics. Therefore I accept that the Church can give Her children poison in the form of Her official worship.

Indult traditionalists= I bury my head in the sand and pretend that the RCC of today is just like the RCC that existed before V2. All the changes you see are simply incidental and don't touch the essence of what the Church is.

More of us who struggled through one or all of these positions are finding our way into the Orthodox Church.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 08:33:29 AM »
What do you think about the Sedevacantist movement?
The same i think of "genuine orthodox churches", its fake and unauthorized.


the title of this topic is odd, that that a split off from somewhere ?





« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 08:34:33 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2018, 12:00:57 PM »
Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable. Just my two cents.

All traditionalist movements within the RCC are intellectually dishonest in one fashion or another.

Sedevacantism= I accept that the pope is supreme in faith, morals, jurisdiction and disciplinary measures. He has no singular equal or even if the entire Church and all Her bishops get together in an Ecumenical Council he is still supreme. Vatican I was fantastic and in some ways didn't go far enough. Pope (I am Tradition) Pius IX is one of the greatest popes of all time.

Having said all that I have determined through my own abilities that the last 5 or 6 claimants to the papal throne were/are frauds because they contradict previous Catholic teaching. Therefore I'm really the supreme authority in the Church.

Recognize and Resist(SSPX)= I accept everything stated above regarding the pope and his authority but I have decided to pick and choose which doctrinal and disciplinary statements and practices I will accept. I also refuse to have anything to do with the Mass officially promulgated by a pope and an Ecumenical Council because it is harmful to the piety of Catholics. Therefore I accept that the Church can give Her children poison in the form of Her official worship.

Indult traditionalists= I bury my head in the sand and pretend that the RCC of today is just like the RCC that existed before V2. All the changes you see are simply incidental and don't touch the essence of what the Church is.

More of us who struggled through one or all of these positions are finding our way into the Orthodox Church.

Well, can I play devil's advocate for the second movement? What if I argue that the Pope is only infallible in terms of Faith and Morality, and the liturgy is merely disciplinary, meaning that the Pope could well be erring in terms of liturgy? After all, as long as there are still venerable liturgical practices, the Church should technically not have had the gates of hell prevail over it - right? As long as the FSSP exists and the Eastern Rites, right?

(Even though the viewing of liturgy as dogmatic was something defined by the 7th Ecumenical Council and the Council of Trent / Quo Primum, but ignoring that, I'll just say that liturgy is dogmatic insofar as certain elements have been defined as dogmatic)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 12:03:32 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Jackson02

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 02:13:49 PM »
What do you think about the Sedevacantist movement?
The same i think of "genuine orthodox churches", its fake and unauthorized.

I take it that's directed at me right?

There's a billion threads on this forum where we discuss this more in-depth, let's not turn this into one of them.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 02:16:22 PM by Jackson02 »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 05:26:37 PM »
Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable. Just my two cents.
But then how are they different from the rest of the hangers on the Vatican?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 05:44:46 PM »
Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable. Just my two cents.
But then how are they different from the rest of the hangers on the Vatican?

Don’t you ever get tired of this?

Lastly like I have said in the past... we will not have a discussion until you can say my churches name.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 05:45:26 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 06:40:55 PM »
What do you think about the Sedevacantist movement?
The same i think of "genuine orthodox churches", its fake and unauthorized.

I take it that's directed at me right?

There's a billion threads on this forum where we discuss this more in-depth, let's not turn this into one of them.

Ah, OC.net ... a website where one is allowed to name call certain communions of churches, but God help you if you use the same name on a more popular communion, even though canonically speaking they are both outside the Church (at least according to mainstream Chalcedonian Orthodoxy) and are thus "fake and unauthorized".
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 06:44:33 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Jackson02

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 07:39:24 PM »
What do you think about the Sedevacantist movement?
The same i think of "genuine orthodox churches", its fake and unauthorized.

I take it that's directed at me right?

There's a billion threads on this forum where we discuss this more in-depth, let's not turn this into one of them.

Ah, OC.net ... a website where one is allowed to name call certain communions of churches, but God help you if you use the same name on a more popular communion, even though canonically speaking they are both outside the Church (at least according to mainstream Chalcedonian Orthodoxy) and are thus "fake and unauthorized".
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Fr. Seraphim Rose

Offline ialmisry

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 10:05:24 PM »
Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable. Just my two cents.
But then how are they different from the rest of the hangers on the Vatican?

Don’t you ever get tired of this?

Lastly like I have said in the past... we will not have a discussion until you can say my churches name.
I have. V-A-T-I-C-A-N. You never seem to tire of trying to take the name Catholic from us, its owners.

Why should we take your word over those you call "intellectually dishonest" with what you call "honestly untenable" views? I mean, I have not seen an intellectually honest and honestly tenable explanation of this


by someone who believes in "Pastor Aeternus."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2018, 12:06:15 AM »
Vatican is the name of a city state... what’s the name of my religious communion?
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Xavier

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2018, 12:58:18 AM »
Hello, Jackson. To answer briefly, Catholic doctrine requires us to hold communion only with those bishops who can demonstrate Succession from St. Peter and the Apostles. Now, all the sedevacantist bishops come under what the Catholic Church calls episcopi vagantes, i.e. to say uncanonically installed vagrant bishops. Although there are other considerations, this one alone is enough to show from Catholic doctrine that the sedevacantists are mistaken - St. Anthony Mary Claret, Dom Prosper Gueranger and other authorities whom the modern sedes accept teach that bishops need a canonical mission from the Pope to enter the episcopal college; and to exercise teaching office together with the Pope's Magisterium, as even the sedevacantists know. Since no sede bishop has this mission, no Catholic is obliged, nay, no Catholic is even permitted to listen to them. See Fr. Gueranger below.

http://www.aihmary.com/433753005/5541935/posting/

Quote from: Dom Gueranger, the Lirurgical Year
This same doctrine is clearly stated in a letter written to Pope St. Symmachus by St. Cesarius of Arles, who lived in the fifth century: “The episcopate flows from the blessed apostle Peter; and consequently, it belongs to your holiness to prescribe to the several Churches the rules which they are to follow.”9 This fundamental principle, which St. Leo the Great has so ably and eloquently developed (as we have seen on the feast of the chair at Rome, January 18), this principle, which is taught us by universal Tradition, is laid down with all possible precision in the magnificent letters, still extant, of Pope St. Innocent I., who preceded St. Leo by several years.

Thus he writes to the Council of Carthage, that “the episcopate, with all its authority, emanates from the Apostolic See”;10 to the Council of Milevis, that “bishops must look upon Peter as the source whence both their name and their dignity are derived”;11 to St. Victricius, bishop of Rouen, that “the apostolate and the episcopate both owe their origin to Peter.”12 ...

All spiritual authority comes from Peter; all comes from the bishop of Rome, in whom Peter will continue to govern the Church to the end of time. Jesus Christ is the founder of the episcopate; it is the Holy Ghost who establishes bishops to rule the Church; but the mission and the institution, which assign the pastor his flock, and the flock its pastor, these are given by Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost through the ministry of Peter and his successors. How sacred, how divine, is this authority of the keys, which is first given by heaven itself to the Roman Pontiff; then is delegated by him to the prelates of the Church; and thus guides and blesses the whole Christian world!

We have already seen how, at the commencement, there were three chairs: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch; and all three were sources of the canonical institution of the bishops of their respective provinces; but they were all three chairs of Peter, for they were founded by him that they might preside over their patriarchates, as St. Leo,13 St. Gelasius,14 and St. Gregory the Great,15 expressly teach. But of these three chairs, the Pontiff of Rome had his authority and his institution from heaven; whereas, the two other patriarchs could not exercise their rights, until they were recognized and confirmed by him who was Peter's Successor, as Vicar of Christ ...

Rome was, more evidently than ever, the sole source of pastoral power. We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. From whose hand have they received the keys? If their mission come from the Apostolic See, let us honor and obey them, for they are sent to us by Jesus Christ, who has invested them, through Peter, with His own authority. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them, for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. The holy anointing may have conferred on them the sacred character of the episcopate: it matters not; they must be as aliens to us, for they have not been sent, they are not pastors.

Thus it is that the divine Founder of the Church, who willed that she should be a city seated on a mountain,17 gave her visibility; it was an essential requisite; for since all were called to enter her pale, all must be able to see her. But He was not satisfied with this. He moreover willed that the spiritual power exercised by her pastors should come from a visible source, so that the faithful might have a sure means of verifying the claims of those who were to guide them in His name. Our Lord (we say it reverently) owed this to us; for, on the last day, He will not receive us as His children, unless we shall have been members of His Church, and have lived in union with Him by the ministry of pastors[i.e. sheperds/bishops with office/jurisdiction] lawfully constituted."

13 Epist. civ. Ad Anatolium.
14 Concil. Romanum. Labb., tom. iv.
15 Epist. Ad Eulogium.
17 St. Matt. v. 14.
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 01:03:25 AM »
Vatican is the name of a city state... what’s the name of my religious communion?
This isn't your ecclesiastical community's official website, Rumpelstiltskin?
http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html

is that why you deride SSPX as "Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable"?
Quote
Bishop Schneider on SSPX – Vatican Relations
http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/bp-schneider-sspx-vatican-relations
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:11:40 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2018, 03:09:15 AM »
Vatican is the name of a city state... what’s the name of my religious communion?
This isn't your ecclesiastical community's official website, Rumpelstiltskin?
http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html

is that why you deride SSPX as "Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable"?
Quote
Bishop Schneider on SSPX – Vatican Relations
http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/bp-schneider-sspx-vatican-relations

Lol Isa you are smarter than this. You can’t seeioilsy be using the website wow.

 The Vatican is a city state and when speaking of relations with the Vatican they are literally talking about the men at the Vatican in Rome. What is the name of my religious communion which comprises of the Latin Church and the eastern churches spanning all continents and nations???
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 03:11:53 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Volnutt

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 04:01:58 AM »
To be fair, if he has a hard time saying "Roman Catholic Church," I don't think there's any way he could get around that (scare quotes, appending "so-called", etc) without getting modded.
I do stuff.

Offline 123abc

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 06:44:35 AM »
I try to strike a balance between politeness and truth when referring to heterodox communions. In the case of the church that Wandile and Xavier belong to I refer to it as the Roman church. Rome being a city gets capitalized but only the Orthodox Church gets a capital C.

Not to further derail...

Offline Lepanto

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 11:07:10 AM »
Why try and force a user to use an adjective he feels does not apply to our "ecclesiastical community"?
It's no use. You could return the favor for our Eastern friends, but this would not comply with Catholic ecclesiology obviously. Oops, I used the C- word.  8)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 12:39:47 PM »
Vatican is the name of a city state... what’s the name of my religious communion?
This isn't your ecclesiastical community's official website, Rumpelstiltskin?
http://w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html

is that why you deride SSPX as "Intellectually dishonest and honestly untenable"?
Quote
Bishop Schneider on SSPX – Vatican Relations
http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/bp-schneider-sspx-vatican-relations

Lol Isa you are smarter than this. You can’t seeioilsy be using the website wow.

 The Vatican is a city state and when speaking of relations with the Vatican they are literally talking about the men at the Vatican in Rome. What is the name of my religious communion which comprises of the Latin Church and the eastern churches spanning all continents and nations???
You mean the one referred to here?
Quote
Yet the Papacy has not on this account ceased to annoy the peaceful Church of God, but sending out everywhere so-called missionaries, men of reprobate minds, it compasses land and sea to make one proselyte, to deceive one of the Orthodox, to corrupt the doctrine of our LORD, to adulterate, by addition, the divine Creed of our holy Faith, to prove the Baptism which God gave us superfluous, the communion of the Cup void of sacred efficacy, and a thousand other things which the demon of novelty dictated to the all-daring Schoolmen of the Middle Ages and to the Bishops of the elder Rome, venturing all things through lust of power. Our blessed predecessors and fathers, in their piety, though tried and persecuted in many ways and means, within and without, directly and indirectly, "yet confident in the LORD," were able to save and transmit to us this inestimable inheritance of our fathers, which we too, by the help of God, will transmit as a rich treasure to the generations to come, even to the end of the world. But notwithstanding this, the Papists do not cease to this day, nor will cease, according to wont, to attack Orthodoxy,—a daily living reproach which they have before their eyes, being deserters from the faith of their fathers. Would that they made these aggressions against the heresy which has overspread and mastered the West. For who doubts that had their zeal for the overthrow of Orthodoxy been employed for the overthrow of heresy and novelties, agreeable to the God-loving counsels of Leo III and John VIII, those glorious and last Orthodox Popes, not a trace of it, long ago, would have been remembered under the sun, and we should now be saying the same things, according to the Apostolic promise. But the zeal of those who succeeded them was not for the protection of the Orthodox Faith, in conformity with the zeal worthy of all remembrance which was in Leo III., now among the blessed. In a measure the aggressions of the later Popes in their own persons had ceased, and were carried on only by means of missionaries. But lately, Pius IX., becoming Bishop of Rome and proclaimed Pope in 1847, published on the sixth of January, in this present year, an Encyclical Letter addressed to the Easterns, consisting of twelve pages in the Greek version, which his emissary has disseminated, like a plague coming from without, within our Orthodox Fold.... And surely we have a right to expect from the prudent forethought of his Holiness, a work so worthy the true successor of St. Peter, of Leo I, and also of Leo III, who for security of the orthodox faith engraved the divine Creed unaltered upon imperishable plates—a work which will unite the churches of the West to the holy Catholic Church, in which the canonical chief seat of his Holiness, and the seats of all the Bishops of the West remain empty and ready to be occupied. For the Catholic Church, awaiting the conversion of the shepherds who have fallen off from her with their flocks, does not separate in name only, those who have been privily introduced to the rulership by the action of others, thus making little of the Priesthood. But we are expecting the "word of consolation," and hope that he, as wrote St. Basil to St.Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (Epis. b6), will "tread again the ancient footprints of the fathers." Not without great astonishment have we read the said Encyclical letter to the Easterns, in which we see with deep grief of soul his Holiness, famed for prudence, speaking like his predecessors in schism, words that urge upon us the adulteration of our pure holy Creed, on which the Ecumenical Councils have set their seal; and doing violence to the sacred Liturgies, whose heavenly structure alone, and the names of those who framed them, and their tone of reverend antiquity, and the stamp that was placed upon them by the Seventh Ecumenical Synod (Act vi.), should have paralyzed him, and made him to turn aside the sacrilegious and all-daring hand that has thus smitten the King of Glory...His Holiness evidently takes it for granted that in the Orthodox Church the same thing has happened which he is conscious has happened in the Church of Rome since the rise of the Papacy: to wit, a sweeping change in all the Mysteries, and corruption from scholastic subtleties, a reliance on which must suffice as an equivalent for our sacred Liturgies and Mysteries and doctrines: yet all the while, forsooth, reverencing our "venerable antiquity," and all this by a condescension entirely Apostolic!—"without," as he says, "troubling us by any harsh conditions"! From such ignorance of the Apostolic and Catholic food on which we live emanates another sententious declaration of his (p. vii. 1. 22): "It is not possible that unity of doctrine and sacred observance should be preserved among you," paradoxically ascribing to us the very misfortune from which he suffers at home; just as Pope Leo IX wrote to the blessed Michael Cerularius, accusing the Greeks of changing the Creed of the Catholic Church, without blushing either for his own honor or for the truth of history. We are persuaded that if his Holiness will call to mind ecclesiastical archaeology and history, the doctrine of the holy Fathers and the old Liturgies of France and Spain, and the Sacramentary of the ancient Roman Church, he will be struck with surprise on finding how many other monstrous daughters, now living, the Papacy has brought forth in the West: while Orthodoxy, with us, has preserved the Catholic Church as an incorruptible bride for her Bridegroom, although we have no temporal power, nor, as his Holiness says, any sacred "observances," but by the sole tie of love and affection to a common Mother are bound together in the unity of a faith sealed with the seven seals of the Spirit (Rev. v. 1), and by the seven Ecumenical Councils, and in obedience to the Truth. He will find, also, flow many modern papistical doctrines and mysteries must be rejected as "commandments of men" in order that the Church of the West, which has introduced all sorts of novelties, may be changed back again to the immutable Catholic Orthodox faith of our common fathers...
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
Quote
In the Holy Scripture the Apostle Peter, whom the Papists, relying on apocryphal books of the second century, the pseudo-Clementines, imagine with a purpose to be the founder of the Roman Church and their first bishop, discusses matters as an equal among equals in the apostolic synod of Jerusalem, and at another time is sharply rebuked by the Apostle Paul, as is evident from the Epistle to the Galatians. Moreover, the Papists themselves know well that the very passage of the Gospel to which the Pontiff refers, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,'  is in the first centuries of the Church interpreted quite differently, in a spirit of orthodoxy, both by tradition and by all the divine and sacred Fathers without exception; the fundamental and unshaken rock upon which the Lord has built His own Church, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, being understood metaphorically of Peter's true confession concerning the Lord, that 'He is Christ, the Son of the living God.'
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Xavier

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2018, 09:14:23 AM »
Indult traditionalists= I bury my head in the sand and pretend that the RCC of today is just like the RCC that existed before V2. All the changes you see are simply incidental and don't touch the essence of what the Church is.

More of us who struggled through one or all of these positions are finding our way into the Orthodox Church.

There was a Communist infiltration into the Church in the 40s and 50s. Indult traditionalists are well aware of this fact, which ex-Communists we converted to our Faith have testified to before Congresses. " A Catholic monk who heard ex-Communist Bella Dodd speak at Fordham University in the 1950s had this to say: I listened to that woman for four hours and she had my hair standing on end. Everything she said has been fulfilled to the letter. You would think she was the world's greatest prophet, but she was no prophet. She was merely exposing the step-by-step battle plan of Communist subversion of the Catholic Church. She explained that of all the world's religions, the Catholic Church was the only one feared by the Communists, for it was its only effective opponent" https://www.fisheaters.com/traditionalcatholicism101.html and "'In the 1930's, we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.' The idea was for these men to be ordained, and then climb the ladder of influence and authority -- to come to be monsignors and bishops. Back then she said 'RIGHT NOW THEY ARE IN THE HIGHEST PLACES, and they are working to bring about change in order that the Catholic Church will no longer be effective against Communism.' She also said that the changes would be so drastic that 'you will not recognize the Catholic Church' http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr33/cr33pg16.asp We Indult traditionalists are fully cognizant of these facts - though many others are not. But by the grace of God, we will ever be faithful to a Church that gave Her all to fight Communism to the death. Because of that, She was targeted and infiltrated, but She will prevail in the end.

But let's come back to a fundamental rule of Catholic Faith, taught by the ancient Fathers, by the Doctors, the theologians and by Pope St. Pius X. Tradition guarantees us the faith will always be preserved by the Magisterium i.e. by the Successors of St. Peter and the Apostles in communion with him. You have it already in St. Irenaeus,

1.
Quote from: Adversus Haereses
"we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; we do this, I say, by indicating that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also by pointing out the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the Tradition has been preserved continuously by those faithful men who exist everywhere. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed Apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing in his ears, and their Traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone in this, for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles ... To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the Apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical Tradition from the Apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed down in truth."

2. And for Catholics, we have a simple explanation of this fundamental rule of Faith in catechisms and in theology manuals. A child of 7 or even 5 can follow or apply this rule to find the true Church. How do I know, 123abc, from among the (1) Assyrian Church of the East, which accepts 2 Councils of the Catholic Church, (2) the Syrian Orthodox Church, which accepts 3 and (3) the Greek Orthodox Church, which accepts 7, which one is the true Church? How did you decide? The Fathers point us to this simple rule - Apostolic Succession in the Chair of St. Peter in Rome. That is the fount of all jurisdiction for bishops and there the divine promise ensures the true Faith will ever be preserved in its fullness.

Quote from: Brunsmann Preuss, Handbook of Fundamental Theology, Vol III
"In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic ... Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense. Those regional churches which are subject to the successor of St. Peter, and live in community with him, participate in this Apostolicity.

St. Anthony Mary Claret explains in his Catechism (primarily directed to Protestants, but also applying to bishops without a canonical mission from the Pope, including Orthodox, Old Catholic and other bishops),

Quote
"The fourth note or mark of the Church is to be Apostolic. That is to say, it was founded by the Apostles and is governed by their successors, the bishops, who since the Apostles, have succeeded without interruption. And these bishops have a lawful mission to guard always, in their teaching and management of the Church, the unity of Faith and of communion with their head and center, the Roman Pontiff ... If, then, any heretics come to you, my son, saying that their churches are also Apostolic, there is nothing more to say to them than what Tertullian said: "Prove the origin of your churches. Make us see that the order of your bishops has in some way through succession descended from the beginning, that the first was any of the Apostles, or had as a predecessor some of the Apostolic men who had persevered together with the Apostles. Inasmuch as the heretical sects will never be able to show this, so it is that none of them can reasonably glory in being Apostolic. But on the other hand, since the Catholic Church is the only one that is able to trace Her origin to the Apostles, it follows from what I have said that She alone is in all truth Apostolic."
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 09:20:54 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2018, 11:09:45 AM »
Finally he answer....
Indult traditionalists= I bury my head in the sand and pretend that the RCC of today is just like the RCC that existed before V2. All the changes you see are simply incidental and don't touch the essence of what the Church is.

More of us who struggled through one or all of these positions are finding our way into the Orthodox Church.

There was a Communist infiltration into the Church in the 40s and 50s. Indult traditionalists are well aware of this fact, which ex-Communists we converted to our Faith have testified to before Congresses. " A Catholic monk who heard ex-Communist Bella Dodd speak at Fordham University in the 1950s had this to say: I listened to that woman for four hours and she had my hair standing on end. Everything she said has been fulfilled to the letter. You would think she was the world's greatest prophet, but she was no prophet. She was merely exposing the step-by-step battle plan of Communist subversion of the Catholic Church. She explained that of all the world's religions, the Catholic Church was the only one feared by the Communists, for it was its only effective opponent" https://www.fisheaters.com/traditionalcatholicism101.html and "'In the 1930's, we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.' The idea was for these men to be ordained, and then climb the ladder of influence and authority -- to come to be monsignors and bishops. Back then she said 'RIGHT NOW THEY ARE IN THE HIGHEST PLACES, and they are working to bring about change in order that the Catholic Church will no longer be effective against Communism.' She also said that the changes would be so drastic that 'you will not recognize the Catholic Church' http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr33/cr33pg16.asp We Indult traditionalists are fully cognizant of these facts - though many others are not. But by the grace of God, we will ever be faithful to a Church that gave Her all to fight Communism to the death. Because of that, She was targeted and infiltrated, but She will prevail in the end.

But let's come back to a fundamental rule of Catholic Faith, taught by the ancient Fathers, by the Doctors, the theologians and by Pope St. Pius X. Tradition guarantees us the faith will always be preserved by the Magisterium i.e. by the Successors of St. Peter and the Apostles in communion with him. You have it already in St. Irenaeus,

1.
Quote from: Adversus Haereses
"we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; we do this, I say, by indicating that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also by pointing out the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the Tradition has been preserved continuously by those faithful men who exist everywhere. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed Apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing in his ears, and their Traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone in this, for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles ... To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the Apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical Tradition from the Apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed down in truth."

2. And for Catholics, we have a simple explanation of this fundamental rule of Faith in catechisms and in theology manuals. A child of 7 or even 5 can follow or apply this rule to find the true Church. How do I know, 123abc, from among the (1) Assyrian Church of the East, which accepts 2 Councils of the Catholic Church, (2) the Syrian Orthodox Church, which accepts 3 and (3) the Greek Orthodox Church, which accepts 7, which one is the true Church? How did you decide? The Fathers point us to this simple rule - Apostolic Succession in the Chair of St. Peter in Rome. That is the fount of all jurisdiction for bishops and there the divine promise ensures the true Faith will ever be preserved in its fullness.

Quote from: Brunsmann Preuss, Handbook of Fundamental Theology, Vol III
"In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic ... Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense. Those regional churches which are subject to the successor of St. Peter, and live in community with him, participate in this Apostolicity.

St. Anthony Mary Claret explains in his Catechism (primarily directed to Protestants, but also applying to bishops without a canonical mission from the Pope, including Orthodox, Old Catholic and other bishops),

Quote
"The fourth note or mark of the Church is to be Apostolic. That is to say, it was founded by the Apostles and is governed by their successors, the bishops, who since the Apostles, have succeeded without interruption. And these bishops have a lawful mission to guard always, in their teaching and management of the Church, the unity of Faith and of communion with their head and center, the Roman Pontiff ... If, then, any heretics come to you, my son, saying that their churches are also Apostolic, there is nothing more to say to them than what Tertullian said: "Prove the origin of your churches. Make us see that the order of your bishops has in some way through succession descended from the beginning, that the first was any of the Apostles, or had as a predecessor some of the Apostolic men who had persevered together with the Apostles. Inasmuch as the heretical sects will never be able to show this, so it is that none of them can reasonably glory in being Apostolic. But on the other hand, since the Catholic Church is the only one that is able to trace Her origin to the Apostles, it follows from what I have said that She alone is in all truth Apostolic."
I don't have the time right now to respond to this rather trite answer, just repeating assertions already discredited, but will point out their irrelevance for the Sedevantist movement (the OP): since there is no "successor of St. Peter" in that "Apostolic Throne" nor any "Apostles in communion with him" with the "magisterium" to put one there.
Game over.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Iconodule

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2018, 11:18:20 AM »
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2018, 11:42:46 AM »
Quote
there is no "successor of St. Peter" in that "Apostolic Throne" nor any "Apostles in communion with him" with the "magisterium" to put one there.

This leads to "ecclesia-vacantism". No Pope for 60 years ---- no bishops with canonical mission from/installation by the Pope --- ergo, no bishops in office ---- then, all episcopal seats are vacant --- so, there is no Magisterium. When a sedevacantist comes this far, he should realize he made a mistake somewhere and go back to examining his premises. Obviously, the premise that there is no Pope for 60 or more years is mistaken. Catholic doctrine is bishops who secede from Peter/are installed without Papal appointment either lose their jurisdiction/never obtain it. Sedevacantists who profess to accept Vatican I are bound by that doctrine.

Also, I think St. Anthony's point may have been missed in the excerpt: those interested can read the whole relevant part below. He's explaining Catholics shouldn't listen to uncanonical bishops without mission and jurisdiction; such "intruder bishops" or episcopi vagantes cannot enter the episcopal succession without Peter's appointment.
http://catholicvox.blogspot.in/2009/03/eens-saint-anthony-mary-claret-from.html?m=1
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: To Xavier
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2018, 09:11:21 PM »
More of us who struggled through one or all of these positions are finding our way into the Orthodox Church.
Indeed, I've heard about many Catholics who found their to the Orthodox Church through these issues.  They did bother me too, but not to the point of looking over the fence to find out how things were East of the fence, so to say.  I consider myself blessed for entering the Orthodox Church because God called me to it, because searching for greener pastures is a way riddled with pitfalls.
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