Author Topic: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.  (Read 733 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Xavier

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Totus Tuus, Maria.
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
St. Irenaeus tells us "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm

The Apostolic authorship of the Gospels was brought up in another thread. The Fathers unhesitatingly asserted it - St. Matthew and St. John as themselves Apostles; St. Mark and St. Luke as being accepted on the Apostolic authority of Sts. Peter and St. Paul. St. Paul in 2 Cor 8:18 mentions the Gospel of St. Luke has already been circulated in the Churches by 53 A.D., when almost everyone admits 2 Corinthians was written. St. Chrysostom and other Fathers confirm this.

Do you believe the Gospels were written when the Fathers say they were? Or, as some modernists claim, were they written anonymously, post 70 A.D. etc?
Locution, Aug 18, 2014: "That is why the Holy Father and all the Bishops must make this Consecration in a public way and must specifically mention Russia. The Russian people must know the source of the gift. This is also why I wait and wait, even though the Holy Father delays. I must have the Holy Father act in the name of the Catholic Church so the Russian people know that the Catholic Church has released this gift. "
http://www.logosinstitute.org/Locutions---selection-2.html

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2018, 01:45:29 AM »
Modernists are really shooting at the dark for this one. They don't believe in prophecy, so their limited minds can only realise the similarity between some words in the Gospel and the First Jewish War as posteriority of the Gospels.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2018, 02:58:15 AM »
St. Irenaeus tells us "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm

The Apostolic authorship of the Gospels was brought up in another thread. The Fathers unhesitatingly asserted it - St. Matthew and St. John as themselves Apostles; St. Mark and St. Luke as being accepted on the Apostolic authority of Sts. Peter and St. Paul. St. Paul in 2 Cor 8:18 mentions the Gospel of St. Luke has already been circulated in the Churches by 53 A.D., when almost everyone admits 2 Corinthians was written. St. Chrysostom and other Fathers confirm this.

Do you believe the Gospels were written when the Fathers say they were? Or, as some modernists claim, were they written anonymously, post 70 A.D. etc?

I do so love your "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" OPs. Keep it up lol.

IIRC, of the Fathers who were actually alive at the same time as some of the Apostles, only Papias really comments (Justin only talks about "memoirs" of the Apostles). Ignatius and Polycarp don't call themselves disciples of John, that was Irenaeus putting that label on them after the fact, from our point of view it's second hand information. He also says that Jesus died at 50 and claims this comes from John, so his accuracy in mundane historical details doesn't seem unimpeachable.

It's not hard to conclude that some of the Apostles or their followers wrote something down. After all, even Christ Mythers have to account for the existence of Christianity somehow. But we have no real way of proving that the four Gospels that we have are exactly what they wrote/said and to what extent. It's not like there weren't plenty of unscrupulous poseurs already in the first decades of Christianity (the Epistles mention plenty).

So, lacking conclusive secular evidence, I have to resort to faith. I accept the accuracy of the four Gospels since I believe in Christ, and to be honest I don't really care all that much who wrote them and when. It's nothing but interesting historical trivia compared to the truth of their message.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Xavier

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Totus Tuus, Maria.
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2018, 08:22:24 AM »
How erroneous. So you disagree with St. Paul and with St. Chrysostom that St. Luke's Gospel was certainly written and very widely distributed by the time 2 Corinthians was written? In that case, you adhere to modernistic rather than patristic standards of interpretation. It is not only St. Irenaeus but all Tradition that tells us St. Matthew wrote before St. Mark, and before St. Luke; we have fragments of St. Mark's Gospel from the 50s. Since the Gospels prophesy events that came about much later, the question is of importance to inquirers into Christianity. It shows the world the Savior prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D The Apostolic and early authorship of the Gospels was stressed by the Fathers.
Locution, Aug 18, 2014: "That is why the Holy Father and all the Bishops must make this Consecration in a public way and must specifically mention Russia. The Russian people must know the source of the gift. This is also why I wait and wait, even though the Holy Father delays. I must have the Holy Father act in the name of the Catholic Church so the Russian people know that the Catholic Church has released this gift. "
http://www.logosinstitute.org/Locutions---selection-2.html

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2018, 10:24:31 AM »
But we have no real way of proving that the four Gospels that we have are exactly what they wrote/said and to what extent.
The thing is: we don't need to. I've been studying logics and epistemology with my study group, and even though I'm the only religious member until we admit a conservative Presbyterian girl, I've been trying to think religion under this analytic lens and having good results. I still want to write about it, definitely in Portuguese, but I could do something in English and then I'll post it. I want to work a concept I like to call the "epistemological slack". Revelation brings apodictic relative presumptions, so whatever revelation says may be taken as true until negatively verified, not inconclusive until positively verified. IOW, we don't need to prove anything about the four Gospels, let high criticism keep trying to disprove them. We have nothing to hide, as said Metropolitan Callistus (Ware), so we shouldn't fear their honest inquiry.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2018, 04:01:22 PM »
But we have no real way of proving that the four Gospels that we have are exactly what they wrote/said and to what extent.
The thing is: we don't need to. I've been studying logics and epistemology with my study group, and even though I'm the only religious member until we admit a conservative Presbyterian girl, I've been trying to think religion under this analytic lens and having good results. I still want to write about it, definitely in Portuguese, but I could do something in English and then I'll post it. I want to work a concept I like to call the "epistemological slack". Revelation brings apodictic relative presumptions, so whatever revelation says may be taken as true until negatively verified, not inconclusive until positively verified. IOW, we don't need to prove anything about the four Gospels, let high criticism keep trying to disprove them. We have nothing to hide, as said Metropolitan Callistus (Ware), so we shouldn't fear their honest inquiry.

If there was only one religion that claimed to be revealed truth, I might agree with you. I do give such "benefit of the doubt" to theism in general over atheism, but that's not enough to make me a Christian by itself. But as it stands, preferring the NT over the Avesta or the Pali Canon is just special pleading without some additional argument as to why we should do so.

I'm not really interested in trying to craft a pseudo-Cartesian bootstrap version of the faith, but if you can pull it off then cool.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2018, 04:16:50 PM »
How erroneous. So you disagree with St. Paul and with St. Chrysostom that St. Luke's Gospel was certainly written and very widely distributed by the time 2 Corinthians was written?

St. Luke is not named in 2 Corinthians. I have no idea who St. Paul is referring to there. Apollos? Barnabas? Later writers like St. John Chrysostom are in no better position to know the secular (as opposed to faith-based) evidence than we are. I also don't see how you're getting "writer of a well known text" out of "whose praise is in the Gospel throughout all the churches." Sounds more likely to me that Paul is referring to "the Gospel" generally.

Now, from an inside perspective, I can take St. John Chrysostom's word for it that St. Luke is the referent here. But this isn't something I'd try to use on a Nonchristian in an argument. It's a crucial distinction.

In that case, you adhere to modernistic rather than patristic standards of interpretation.

In secular matters, generally yes. Otherwise I'd be a Geocentrist.

You can't prove Christianity by worldly means, it just doesn't work. At best you can create reasonable doubt.

It is not only St. Irenaeus but all Tradition that tells us St. Matthew wrote before St. Mark, and before St. Luke; we have fragments of St. Mark's Gospel from the 50s. Since the Gospels prophesy events that came about much later, the question is of importance to inquirers into Christianity. It shows the world the Savior prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D The Apostolic and early authorship of the Gospels was stressed by the Fathers.

Giving these kind of arguments to inquirers are almost as likely to create atheists as your YEC threads are. "This prophecy was made in AD 50 and then came true because take this 2nd Century guy's word for it!"
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 04:17:14 PM by Volnutt »
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,595
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2018, 07:52:28 PM »
The Fathers can be safely discarded when it comes to dating the Gosoels. Even the contemporary consensus errs generously on the side of an early dating. No Gospel narrative existed I think before early second century.  It's likely that sayings of Jesus were collected before that though.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,264
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 12:39:27 PM »
The Fathers can be safely discarded when it comes to dating the Gosoels. Even the contemporary consensus errs generously on the side of an early dating. No Gospel narrative existed I think before early second century.  It's likely that sayings of Jesus were collected before that though.
Rather odd that the Gospel narratives should spread so fast, as the Father Papias already before 120 speaks of them.

There is no doubt that St. John dates from the 90's, and that his is the last Gospel. No "err" involved.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,595
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 01:14:32 PM »
The Fathers can be safely discarded when it comes to dating the Gosoels. Even the contemporary consensus errs generously on the side of an early dating. No Gospel narrative existed I think before early second century.  It's likely that sayings of Jesus were collected before that though.
Rather odd that the Gospel narratives should spread so fast, as the Father Papias already before 120 speaks of them.

There is no doubt that St. John dates from the 90's, and that his is the last Gospel. No "err" involved.
The Synoptics as we have now we're all probably composed or at least redacted in Rome within a short period of time of each other . That would explain the crisscross litterary  quagmire  they are. The more I read the more I find plausible a minority hypothesis where the fist narrative gospel was composed by Marcion ( Tertulian admits as much when he accused him of creating a new litterary genre "nova forma sermonis" and "evangelizator"). That protogospel ( could have used whatever collections of sayings of Jesus were available) was redacted by the proto-catholic party. The Gospel of Luke preserves most of it.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 01:06:35 AM »
If there was only one religion that claimed to be revealed truth, I might agree with you. I do give such "benefit of the doubt" to theism in general over atheism, but that's not enough to make me a Christian by itself. But as it stands, preferring the NT over the Avesta or the Pali Canon is just special pleading without some additional argument as to why we should do so.

I'm not really interested in trying to craft a pseudo-Cartesian bootstrap version of the faith, but if you can pull it off then cool.
But religious knowledge is aprioristic, so other faiths are irrelevant. The thing is a system with aprioristic knowledge that can easily be negated is inconsistent, but that's not the case of Christianity. Non-Christians suppose we have a lot to prove, but that's not true, the burden of (negative) proof is on them.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 01:07:15 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 04:15:30 AM »
If there was only one religion that claimed to be revealed truth, I might agree with you. I do give such "benefit of the doubt" to theism in general over atheism, but that's not enough to make me a Christian by itself. But as it stands, preferring the NT over the Avesta or the Pali Canon is just special pleading without some additional argument as to why we should do so.

I'm not really interested in trying to craft a pseudo-Cartesian bootstrap version of the faith, but if you can pull it off then cool.
But religious knowledge is aprioristic, so other faiths are irrelevant. The thing is a system with aprioristic knowledge that can easily be negated is inconsistent, but that's not the case of Christianity. Non-Christians suppose we have a lot to prove, but that's not true, the burden of (negative) proof is on them.

It's apriorostic, yes, but how do you decide which deity to use as the a priori? Even if you're making some kind of appeal to the Ontological Argument, what makes Yahweh more likely to be the identity of the Greatest Being than Allah or Shang Di (let alone which conception of Yahweh- Jewish, Christian, Jehovah's Witness...)?
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 12:41:19 PM »
It's apriorostic, yes, but how do you decide which deity to use as the a priori? Even if you're making some kind of appeal to the Ontological Argument, what makes Yahweh more likely to be the identity of the Greatest Being than Allah or Shang Di (let alone which conception of Yahweh- Jewish, Christian, Jehovah's Witness...)?
Faith, coherence, logics, spiritual experience, etc. This is another deal. What I mean is: once Christian Orthodoxy is stabilished, a lot of knowledge comes as apodictic.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 01:18:51 PM »
It's apriorostic, yes, but how do you decide which deity to use as the a priori? Even if you're making some kind of appeal to the Ontological Argument, what makes Yahweh more likely to be the identity of the Greatest Being than Allah or Shang Di (let alone which conception of Yahweh- Jewish, Christian, Jehovah's Witness...)?
Faith, coherence, logics, spiritual experience, etc. This is another deal. What I mean is: once Christian Orthodoxy is stabilished, a lot of knowledge comes as apodictic.

Cool. But how do you establish it?
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 02:42:17 PM »
This would take much more than I can write right now, but, to sum it up very poorly: a number of rational steps may be taken, but the mystery of faith is the ultimate epistemologic bulldozer.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 10:35:30 PM »
This would take much more than I can write right now, but, to sum it up very poorly: a number of rational steps may be taken, but the mystery of faith is the ultimate epistemologic bulldozer.

Alright, fair enough. Do you have any particular sources on that to link or recommend?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 10:35:48 PM by Volnutt »
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 11:17:46 PM »
The Fathers can be safely discarded when it comes to dating the Gosoels. Even the contemporary consensus errs generously on the side of an early dating. No Gospel narrative existed I think before early second century.  It's likely that sayings of Jesus were collected before that though.
Rather odd that the Gospel narratives should spread so fast, as the Father Papias already before 120 speaks of them.

There is no doubt that St. John dates from the 90's, and that his is the last Gospel. No "err" involved.
The Synoptics as we have now we're all probably composed or at least redacted in Rome within a short period of time of each other . That would explain the crisscross litterary  quagmire  they are. The more I read the more I find plausible a minority hypothesis where the fist narrative gospel was composed by Marcion ( Tertulian admits as much when he accused him of creating a new litterary genre "nova forma sermonis" and "evangelizator"). That protogospel ( could have used whatever collections of sayings of Jesus were available) was redacted by the proto-catholic party. The Gospel of Luke preserves most of it.

So, your claim is that Tertulian didn't know the Gospels existed, right? Even if he really didn't, why should we take his word on such a strange sounding claim (that they didn't exist as opposed to just not being known to him personally, though I admit the whole idea kind of puzzles me- before Marcion, was the life of Christ just told via oral tradition?) but not when he says Paul wrote Ephesians or something?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 11:19:08 PM by Volnutt »
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2018, 04:39:03 AM »
Alright, fair enough. Do you have any particular sources on that to link or recommend?
Not really, I'm not even sure how much of it I've actually read and how much is my logical-positivist mind wrapping around Orthodox Christian dogma. Some Roman Catholic writers have done an excellent work by that, but I've never seen an Orthodox one. Geach was a great philosopher in a similar sense, I prefer his wife Anscombe (herself a pupil of Wittgenstein), but their areas inside Christian analytic philosophy are totally different. He's more into metaphysics (which is what really matters in my point) while she's more prone to ethics (which is what really matters for my own professional/academical studies).
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Xavier

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 399
  • Totus Tuus, Maria.
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2018, 10:00:22 AM »
Quote from: Augustin
The Fathers can be safely discarded when it comes to dating the Gosoels. Even the contemporary consensus errs generously on the side of an early dating. No Gospel narrative existed I think before early second century.  It's likely that sayings of Jesus were collected before that though.

This was a prevailing view some time ago. Sir Willaim Ramsay is one of the main scholars who convincingly overturned it. He was an Oxford educated archaeologist and former skeptic. He believed what you claim too. Then he tested it, and was so stunned by the incredible precision of the Gospel biographies, that he not only concluded St. Luke was one of the greatest historians ever, he even converted to Christ in part because of what he discovered. Wiki: "When he first went to Asia Minor, many of the cities mentioned in Acts had no known location and almost nothing was known of their detailed history or politics. The Acts of the Apostles was the only record and Ramsay, skeptical, fully expected his own research to prove the author of Acts hopelessly inaccurate since no man could possibly know the details of Asia Minor more than a hundred years after the event—this is, when Acts was then supposed to have been written. He therefore set out to put the writer of Acts on trial. He devoted his life to unearthing the ancient cities and documents of Asia Minor. After a lifetime of study, however, he concluded: 'Further study … showed that the book could bear the most minute scrutiny as an authority for the facts of the Aegean world, and that it was written with such judgment, skill, art and perception of truth as to be a model of historical statement' (The Bearing of Recent Discovery, p. 85). On page 89 of the same book, Ramsay accounted, 'I set out to look for truth on the borderland where Greece and Asia meet, and found it there [in Acts]. You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian's and they stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mitchell_Ramsay

When Ramsay turned his attention to Paul's letters, most of which the critics dismissed as forgeries, he concluded that all thirteen New Testament letters that claimed to have been written by Paul were authentic."

Of course, Acts was actually written while St. Paul was still alive, as all Tradition testifies, and that is why St. Luke does not record his martyrdom under Nero but abruptly concludes it. St. Paul was martyred in 67 A.D. side by side with St. Peter the Apostle, and Acts was likely written in 63 A.D. All the Synoptics were written much before that. The CE article on Acts http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09420a.htm and the Gospels treats all this in much more detail.

I advise anyone interested in further study to read the works of A.T. Robinson redating the New Testament. He comes out in full support of the traditional authorship https://www.amazon.com/Redating-New-Testament-John-Robinson/dp/1579105270 Robinson is usually liberal, yet he castigates his fellow liberals for their "almost wilful blindness" in dating the Gospels late.

St. Matthew the Apostle wrote first, around 40 to 45 A.D.
St. Matthew's Gospel was published. St. Peter gave sermons approving it.
St. Mark the Evangelist, disciple of St. Peter the Apostle, wrote down St. Peter's preaching.
He wrote this in his Gospel around 45-50 A.D. He wrote before he went to Alexandria.
St. Luke the Evangelist, disciple of St. Paul the Apostle, wrote next. (See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_ben_Ananus for the official who may have been the original recipient of the letter to which Luke-Acts is addressed)
He wrote around 48-53 A.D. By the time of 2 Corinthians, his Gospel was widely distributed.
The Tradition of the Fathers, even on different continents, is virtually unanimous about the order.
This would not be the case unless they had each received and verified these letters were of Apostolic authority.
St. John the Apostle wrote last and he confirmed by his Apostolic authority all the earlier Gospels.
The four living creatures mentioned in the Apocalpyse are the four Evangelists: the four pillars of the Church.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 10:06:54 AM by Xavier »
Locution, Aug 18, 2014: "That is why the Holy Father and all the Bishops must make this Consecration in a public way and must specifically mention Russia. The Russian people must know the source of the gift. This is also why I wait and wait, even though the Holy Father delays. I must have the Holy Father act in the name of the Catholic Church so the Russian people know that the Catholic Church has released this gift. "
http://www.logosinstitute.org/Locutions---selection-2.html

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2018, 05:38:18 PM »
Alright, fair enough. Do you have any particular sources on that to link or recommend?
Not really, I'm not even sure how much of it I've actually read and how much is my logical-positivist mind wrapping around Orthodox Christian dogma. Some Roman Catholic writers have done an excellent work by that, but I've never seen an Orthodox one. Geach was a great philosopher in a similar sense, I prefer his wife Anscombe (herself a pupil of Wittgenstein), but their areas inside Christian analytic philosophy are totally different. He's more into metaphysics (which is what really matters in my point) while she's more prone to ethics (which is what really matters for my own professional/academical studies).

Ok.
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2018, 07:51:43 PM »
The Synoptics as we have now we're all probably composed or at least redacted in Rome within a short period of time of each other . That would explain the crisscross litterary  quagmire they are.
Greeks sang Homer by heart for so long that some of his original metrics got flaws as phonemes disappeared from the language until someone finally wrote it down. The Vedas and Avestas were repeated generation after generation before someone wrote them down so long that their respective languages stopped making sense to the general populace. Ancient bishops were required to know the Psalter by heart, and some bishops required this even from any candidate to priesthood... So why should repeated little excerpts of text across the Synoptic Gospels necessarily mean anything but the obvious fact the stories of Christ were being transmitted in fixed ways? Makes no sense at all. Hypotheses should be openly assumed as hypotheses.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:52:24 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,069
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2018, 08:58:10 PM »
The Synoptics as we have now we're all probably composed or at least redacted in Rome within a short period of time of each other . That would explain the crisscross litterary  quagmire they are.
Greeks sang Homer by heart for so long that some of his original metrics got flaws as phonemes disappeared from the language until someone finally wrote it down. The Vedas and Avestas were repeated generation after generation before someone wrote them down so long that their respective languages stopped making sense to the general populace. Ancient bishops were required to know the Psalter by heart, and some bishops required this even from any candidate to priesthood... So why should repeated little excerpts of text across the Synoptic Gospels necessarily mean anything but the obvious fact the stories of Christ were being transmitted in fixed ways? Makes no sense at all. Hypotheses should be openly assumed as hypotheses.

You're definitely right that oral tradition needs to be considered by scholars more often. But at the same time, how do you explain that John doesn't have the same lines?
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,679
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Dates and order of the Gospels/epistles according to the Fathers.
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2018, 09:21:04 PM »
You're definitely right that oral tradition needs to be considered by scholars more often. But at the same time, how do you explain that John doesn't have the same lines?
I believe the Gospel of St. John was written for people already acquainted with the narrative, no wonder why in one hand it omits so much important stuff while still referring to it, in the other it includes a lot that doesn't appear in the Synoptics (both narrative and dissertation).
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.