Author Topic: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?  (Read 2365 times)

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2018, 03:26:20 PM »
I blame modern television and movies for blurring the lines. I see people praising actors as if. They are the actual character they play. Is a a good joke at best.

What im trying to say is that it is a choice between two competing systems. Some people will swing based on just assumption.  Either way nothing is proven to a degree that leave the other behind. Until it does I would rather trust people of god.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 03:38:24 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Jackson02

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2018, 05:55:07 PM »
Yes I believe in a universal flood.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2018, 06:32:35 PM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.

We do find birds alongside dinosaurs and we do find ancient species of fish thought to be ancestors and extinct still alive today almost exactly the same they were all that supposed time ago.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2018, 06:33:42 PM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.
And you would need science to do that? Carbon dating as a system could be flawed. I haven't seen evidence that its in some perfected stage. Only believers in it thing this.

Yeah, and jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

There's a difference between quibbling over this or that feature of radio carbon dating and the simple fact that the fossil record is almost perfectly stacked in a way that corresponds to gradualism and evolution, not a global catastrophe.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 06:37:23 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2018, 06:36:43 PM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.

We do find birds alongside dinosaurs and we do find ancient species of fish thought to be ancestors and extinct still alive today almost exactly the same they were all that supposed time ago.

Which is something the theory of evolution doesn't predict against. We don't find rabbits in a layer of nothing but plankton, which would be the kind of slam dunk that YEC needs to overturn the scientific consensus.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2018, 07:11:21 PM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.
And you would need science to do that? Carbon dating as a system could be flawed. I haven't seen evidence that its in some perfected stage. Only believers in it thing this.

Yeah, and jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

There's a difference between quibbling over this or that feature of radio carbon dating and the simple fact that the fossil record is almost perfectly stacked in a way that corresponds to gradualism and evolution, not a global catastrophe.
Is that opinion or fact? Personally I believe in an old earth and the spirtual creation of Adam and eve 6000 years or so ago. It isn't inconceivable. Nor is a deviating flood.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2018, 07:19:22 PM »
You expect to much from people. The world isnt as smart as you make it out to be.

Clearly.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2018, 07:21:09 PM »
You expect to much from people. The world isnt as smart as you make it out to be.

Clearly.
Nice jab. I get you next time around.

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2018, 07:22:49 PM »
I wonder what the Vatican Academy of Science teaches  ;)
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2018, 07:27:49 PM »
I wonder what the Vatican Academy of Science teaches  ;)
A new meaning to the word agnostic.

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2018, 07:32:55 PM »
You expect to much from people. The world isnt as smart as you make it out to be.

Clearly.
Nice jab. I get you next time around.

I'm more than happy to explicate the jab. I did not make the jab because you think the flood happened. I made the jab because you butchered the most modest understandings of modern science. More importantly, however, you stepped into a very common fallacy whereby many people seek to glorify God by striving to find (and often failing whether they know it or not) inconsistencies within the methods of science and through that line of argument, inadvertently turn God into some sort of "God-of-the-gaps" entity that is more akin to the eighteenth-century deist conceptions of a god. That is why I made the jab.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 07:33:52 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2018, 07:38:11 PM »
You expect to much from people. The world isnt as smart as you make it out to be.

Clearly.
Nice jab. I get you next time around.

I'm more than happy to explicate the jab. I did not make the jab because you think the flood happened. I made the jab because you butchered the most modest understandings of modern science. More importantly, however, you stepped into a very common fallacy whereby many people seek to glorify God by striving to find (and often failing whether they know it or not) inconsistencies within the methods of science and through that line of argument, inadvertently turn God into some sort of "God-of-the-gaps" entity that is more akin to the eighteenth-century deist conceptions of a god. That is why I made the jab.
Your lack of understanding of human nature leads you to believe what you do. Its ok. You wouldn't be the first.

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2018, 07:40:13 PM »
"Paphnutius was born at Alexandria of noble parents, who had instructed him in all profane learning. He had even been allured by the falsehoods of the poets, and in his early youth had been misguided enough to believe that the human race had all been drowned by a deluge in the days of Deucalion, and had argued with his fellow-scholars concerning the nature, the attributes, and even the existence of God. He then led a life of dissipation, after the manner of the Gentiles, and he recalled the memory of those days with shame and horror."
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2018, 07:53:04 PM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.
And you would need science to do that? Carbon dating as a system could be flawed. I haven't seen evidence that its in some perfected stage. Only believers in it thing this.

Yeah, and jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

There's a difference between quibbling over this or that feature of radio carbon dating and the simple fact that the fossil record is almost perfectly stacked in a way that corresponds to gradualism and evolution, not a global catastrophe.
Is that opinion or fact? Personally I believe in an old earth and the spirtual creation of Adam and eve 6000 years or so ago. It isn't inconceivable. Nor is a deviating flood.

I think it's as close to a fact as we'll get right now without also jumping off the slippery slope into absolute insanity (at least they have pizza, I guess).

Your lack of understanding of human nature leads you to believe what you do. Its ok. You wouldn't be the first.

Pretty rich coming from you, man. And I'm not the only one who's said that.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2018, 07:53:55 PM »
"Paphnutius was born at Alexandria of noble parents, who had instructed him in all profane learning. He had even been allured by the falsehoods of the poets, and in his early youth had been misguided enough to believe that the human race had all been drowned by a deluge in the days of Deucalion, and had argued with his fellow-scholars concerning the nature, the attributes, and even the existence of God. He then led a life of dissipation, after the manner of the Gentiles, and he recalled the memory of those days with shame and horror."
Anatole France , Thais

Oh, Mr. France... that's some mighty tasty sour grapes lol.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 07:54:15 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2018, 04:31:55 AM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.
And you would need science to do that? Carbon dating as a system could be flawed. I haven't seen evidence that its in some perfected stage. Only believers in it thing this.

Yeah, and jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

There's a difference between quibbling over this or that feature of radio carbon dating and the simple fact that the fossil record is almost perfectly stacked in a way that corresponds to gradualism and evolution, not a global catastrophe.
Is that opinion or fact? Personally I believe in an old earth and the spirtual creation of Adam and eve 6000 years or so ago. It isn't inconceivable. Nor is a deviating flood.

I think it's as close to a fact as we'll get right now without also jumping off the slippery slope into absolute insanity (at least they have pizza, I guess).

Your lack of understanding of human nature leads you to believe what you do. Its ok. You wouldn't be the first.

Pretty rich coming from you, man. And I'm not the only one who's said that.
Its as factual as Pluto was a planet 10 years ago. If they cant even decern whats right in front of them with accuracy.  You expect them to know what happen in the past? I personally feel like you are giving people to much credit.
Im not entirely against the theory, but im also not obligated to believe it as truth.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 04:44:04 AM by Tzimis »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2018, 04:42:42 AM »
"Planet" is just an arbitrary term we apply to nature. It has nothing to do with whether a fossil exists in a given place or not (or whether vaccines cause autism, etc).
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2018, 04:57:16 AM »
"Planet" is just an arbitrary term we apply to nature. It has nothing to do with whether a fossil exists in a given place or not (or whether vaccines cause autism, etc).
There could be other reasons for a flood. Recently nasa warned of an impending danger of the poles reversing. They claim it happened in the past. The bible carries with it some historical events that could have happened and science missed.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2018, 05:50:29 AM »
"Planet" is just an arbitrary term we apply to nature. It has nothing to do with whether a fossil exists in a given place or not (or whether vaccines cause autism, etc).
There could be other reasons for a flood.


Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that.

Recently nasa warned of an impending danger of the poles reversing. They claim it happened in the past.

Pretty sure they didn't. Pole reversals have happened often in geologic history http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-poleReversal.html It'll most likely happen again eventually and the cost to our infrastructure in terms of technology like GPS that relies on the poles will be pretty massive, a lot of animals will get screwed up in their migration patterns, but that's about it. The Earth will endure. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/earth-magnetic-field-flip-poles-spinning-magnet-alanna-mitchell/

"Warning" of it is like warning about the Yellowstone caldera exploding, though. It's not something we know how to predict yet, all we can do is prepare for it in general. I'm sure NASA would like people to be aware of pole reversals, but I don't think they consider it an imminent existential risk.

The bible carries with it some historical events that could have happened and science missed.

No doubt, but a global flood is pretty unmissable.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 05:51:18 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Xavier

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2018, 08:48:06 AM »
Rohzek, do you believe the Prophets? The Apostles? The Fathers? The Lord? Do you care to explain how and why some of those I cited in my last post are mistaken? St. Peter, who saw the Risen Christ and worked miracles, says the world that then was perished, and but 8 people of one family survived. What of that? It's one thing to have personal doubts, its another thing to try to bully other Christians to uncritically accept the claims of a barely 200 year old theory. You can believe the modernists and their pagan theories if you want; I believe the testimony of the Apostles and the Prophets, and of God Himself. What evidence is left or is not left is not the question - the question is what God has testified to. And He has told us in no uncertain terms that all outside the ark perished.

Asteriktos, you mention some fossils on different layerd - but ou skipped explaining how the fossils of marine creatures are found so high in the Himalayas. Was Asia, then, visited by a massive regional flood, to the exclusion of the rest of the world? Right. Have you really never have heard of massive watery graveyards of many animals in many sites around the world. The Americas were certainly visited by one, and it washed away many creatures - this is from as mainstream a site as it gets, not a creation website. "Fossil mystery solved

These storms could also help explain why fossils are so abundant in the badlands of western Canada overall, "and why they are often found preserved so exquisitely," Eberth said ... "Because of their size and the scale of the flooding, dinosaurs could not escape the coastal floodwaters and would have been killed in large numbers," Eberth explained" https://www.livescience.com/8340-world-largest-dinosaur-graveyard-linked-mass-death.html

Australia has a record of massive floods. So do the Amazon tribes. Gee, seems like there was an awful lot of purely local flooding going on in each continent. Even massive floods on each continent separately would lead to difficulty in repopulating those continents later on if something like the Biblical event had not really transpired.

We may understand but 1% from studying underwater archaeology or preserved fossils, but the evidence is certainly consistent with a single global flood rather than several local floods. As for the location, Mount Ararat is believed by many experts to be the Ark's final resting place. Newspaper article: "The biblical reference to 'mountains of Ararat' as the landing site of the Ark suggests those mountains formed well before the Flood ended.

"The Flood was a global catastrophe that totally reshaped the earth’s geology, and the earth’s surface has continued to change since then."
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2018, 08:56:55 AM »
Rohzek, do you believe the Prophets? The Apostles? The Fathers? The Lord? Do you care to explain how and why some of those I cited in my last post are mistaken? St. Peter, who saw the Risen Christ and worked miracles, says the world that then was perished, and but 8 people of one family survived. What of that? It's one thing to have personal doubts, its another thing to try to bully other Christians to uncritically accept the claims of a barely 200 year old theory. You can believe the modernists and their pagan theories if you want; I believe the testimony of the Apostles and the Prophets, and of God Himself. What evidence is left or is not left is not the question - the question is what God has testified to. And He has told us in no uncertain terms that all outside the ark perished.

I've already sufficiently answered this line of questions in a previous post, which many seem to have either completely missed or ignored.

I'll try to answer some of the questions directly posed to me and also comment on somethings just in passing.

In answer to whether I think the corporeal level is the "most real level," I think it depends upon what you mean by "real." If you mean by "real," something that pertains to a material reality (let's not get into the discussion of how nebulous a term "material" is but just stick with common sense notions), then yes. But if you mean by "real," something that is of the grandest importance, then absolutely not. It is part of sacred tradition that the spiritual and intellectual levels of reading scriptures are far more important than the corporeal level.

In answer to Liza, you are right. God could very well indeed have made this historical event happen at the corporeal level. I just happen to think that it is not essential to the faith that He did so. Again, I think the primary importance of many of these events, especially in the Old Testament, is that these events, whether occurring at the corporeal/historical level or not, prefigure the coming of the Christ and New Covenant. If one looks at the vast swath of pre-first-millennium biblical exegesis, their focus is almost entirely on the spiritual and intellectual levels. They pass over the corporeal level with little comment, probably assuming that the events described really happened but whose meaning was both intuitively obvious and entirely banal to the faith, with few exceptions of course (such as the resurrection). In fact, some biblical commentators even wrote that non-Christians could read the scriptures and their witness at the corporeal level and accept it, but that this acceptance means very little to their salvation. In short, communion with God, while not mutually exclusive to historical/corporeal reality, often transcends it. As for the resurrection itself, that necessarily had to occur historically/corporeally. This matter was even confronted in the early church and settled early on as an article of faith. I am in full agreement with St. Paul on this subject - without the resurrection, there is no Christianity.

As for why I don't believe that the flood occurred at the corporeal level, either locally or globally, is because it is impossible to fit all of the animals on such a boat as detailed. It is also impossible that such a boat would have been sea worthy. And furthermore, there is no archaeological evidence indicating that there was a flood at the regional or global level. So for me, I am faced with two choices. Either I believe the flood happened and that God made it so in a way that defies reason at every level or that it never historically happened. In either case, however, I am still left with far more important and transcendent truths that bring me closer to God. My choice to go with the latter option then is more a matter of personal taste - a taste that I think more people should follow, but I don't think it to be a moral imperative. So my apologies if my usage of the word "should" in my original post implied such a thing.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 08:57:12 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2018, 11:50:58 AM »
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5022926674001/?#sp=show-clips


Interesting ~ have a look ~ if you've time ```

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2018, 02:02:23 PM »
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5022926674001/?#sp=show-clips


Interesting ~ have a look ~ if you've time ```
Ah yes, the place where Bill Nye debated the evangelical Pastor.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 02:03:23 PM by Jackson02 »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2018, 04:00:09 PM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.

We do find birds alongside dinosaurs and we do find ancient species of fish thought to be ancestors and extinct still alive today almost exactly the same they were all that supposed time ago.

Which is something the theory of evolution doesn't predict against. We don't find rabbits in a layer of nothing but plankton, which would be the kind of slam dunk that YEC needs to overturn the scientific consensus.

Geological layers should be neat and organized where we can see the beginning and end of species in earth’s history. It would also help if we could see the transitional forms that lead to these forms, but that’s asking a lot. Do we find the beginning and the end of various species? Most would say, yes. There seems to be a point where species appear and disappear in certain layers. Of course, paleontologists haven’t looked at every layer of dirt, so you never know when they will show a certain organism lived longer than thought, or if they’ll find an organism in a higher strata layer and say it went extinct more recently than thought. This is all fine and dandy, but doesn’t really prove evolution.

Problems can arise for evolution when we find “living fossils,” sometimes called lazarus taxa. One of the most famous examples of a “living fossil,” and a good evolutionary blunder to pass around the dinner table, is the coelacanth. Thought to have gone extinct 65 million years along with the dinosaurs, the fish has been found still living today. The fish which was thought to have crawled up on land and given rise to land animals, was found to be living; as a fully aquatic, deep sea fish that goes nowhere near the surface. According to the “trusty” fossil record, we shouldn’t see the fish that dropped off the fossil record charts when its fossils stopped showing up in more recent layers. The funny thing is, after 65 million years, the coelacanth is unchanged. Evolution is supposed to be all about addition of mutations and genetic information, if after 65 million years, the thing didn’t change, how are we supposed to expect other species to go through radical changes like monkey to man or fish to reptile in even less time.

This problem isn’t exclusive to illusive deep sea fish, and actually the issue gets worse as you dig deeper. There are completely modern looking animals in allegedly ancient geologic layers in places that are definitely NOT supposed to be in. If dinosaurs evolved into birds, then the dinosaurs would come first in the fossil record, in deeper layers than the birds. Dinosaurs were erased from the earth about 65 million years ago, evolutionists contend, and birds are their survivors of today—but what if we find modern looking birds with dinosaurs? You are not supposed to see ancestors alongside their descendants, they should be millions of years apart.
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2018, 04:09:25 PM »
I don't know ~ Bill Nye ~ but they're sure after him on the net ```


One lady ~ years ago ~ expressed the belief ~ that ~ the Lord ~ God sent or directed ~ animals to enter the ark ~ there they stayed in ~ suspended animation ~ like a sleep ~ for month ~ or what ever time ~ they were on the Ark ```

I thought ~ at the time: God could do that ```

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2018, 06:28:07 PM »
A global flood could have meant a local flood. The known world at the time centered around modern dayTurkey.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 06:28:40 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2018, 06:43:04 PM »
A global flood could have meant a local flood. The known world at the time centered around modern dayTurkey.

The earliest variants of the Flood legend are from modern day Iraq (which is where Genesis tells us that Abraham came from, after all).

I don't necessarily mind local flood theories (I even have an idea for a novel about one), but you're going to get just as much pushback on them in this thread for "compromising what the Fathers say."
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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2018, 08:01:45 PM »
A global flood could have meant a local flood. The known world at the time centered around modern dayTurkey.

The earliest variants of the Flood legend are from modern day Iraq (which is where Genesis tells us that Abraham came from, after all).

I don't necessarily mind local flood theories (I even have an idea for a novel about one), but you're going to get just as much pushback on them in this thread for "compromising what the Fathers say."
The fathers weren't as informed as we are . Hind sight is 20/20. Plus if they didn't know about the new world.  I can forgive them.
I find it interesting that Abraham was a Syrian and not a jew. These made up stories about lineage really dont mean much. Except for us Greeks lol. We are true blood!
Ok I will accept local flood. But, dont ever tell me that a flood never happened.  Ill have to kill you.



Offline Antonis

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2018, 10:42:04 PM »
The fathers weren't as informed as we are . Hind sight is 20/20. Plus if they didn't know about the new world.  I can forgive them.
I find it interesting that Abraham was a Syrian and not a jew. These made up stories about lineage really dont mean much. Except for us Greeks lol. We are true blood!
Ok I will accept local flood. But, dont ever tell me that a flood never happened.  Ill have to kill you.

Tzimis,

You're not funny like you think.

Given your recent posting habits, I am raising your point level to fifty (50) points. Hopefully a period of moderation will improve your discernment. As always, you may appeal by PM if you so choose.

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How has Antonis not become an Old Calendarist yet?
I thought he had, a few posts ago.

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2018, 11:06:23 PM »
A global flood could have meant a local flood. The known world at the time centered around modern dayTurkey.

The earliest variants of the Flood legend are from modern day Iraq (which is where Genesis tells us that Abraham came from, after all).

I don't necessarily mind local flood theories (I even have an idea for a novel about one), but you're going to get just as much pushback on them in this thread for "compromising what the Fathers say."
The fathers weren't as informed as we are . Hind sight is 20/20. Plus if they didn't know about the new world.  I can forgive them.
I find it interesting that Abraham was a Syrian and not a jew. These made up stories about lineage really dont mean much. Except for us Greeks lol. We are true blood!
Ok I will accept local flood. But, dont ever tell me that a flood never happened.  Ill have to kill you.

Abraham was a Jew (to the extent that that's a meaningful term before the Mosaic Covenant). It's just that the Jews originally came from Ur of the Chaldees- where he was from. IIRC, one possible etymology of the word "Hebrew" is actually something like "one who wandered here from over the River [ie. the Euphrates]."

As for the rest, some would say that making the Flood local is saying that it never happened. I'm not sure whether I agree with them or not, really.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2018, 11:20:04 PM »
Quote
If there was a sudden flood that killed creatures all at once, we would find a jumble of such fossils in one layer, as opposed to finding creatures that died 300 million years ago always at a different (older) layer than a primate that died off 3 million years ago

Yeah, that's the killer. If you really want to disprove evolution using fossils, you need to find a rabbit in the Precambrian layer, or something like that.

We do find birds alongside dinosaurs and we do find ancient species of fish thought to be ancestors and extinct still alive today almost exactly the same they were all that supposed time ago.

Which is something the theory of evolution doesn't predict against. We don't find rabbits in a layer of nothing but plankton, which would be the kind of slam dunk that YEC needs to overturn the scientific consensus.

Geological layers should be neat and organized where we can see the beginning and end of species in earth’s history. It would also help if we could see the transitional forms that lead to these forms, but that’s asking a lot. Do we find the beginning and the end of various species? Most would say, yes. There seems to be a point where species appear and disappear in certain layers. Of course, paleontologists haven’t looked at every layer of dirt, so you never know when they will show a certain organism lived longer than thought, or if they’ll find an organism in a higher strata layer and say it went extinct more recently than thought. This is all fine and dandy, but doesn’t really prove evolution.

Problems can arise for evolution when we find “living fossils,” sometimes called lazarus taxa. One of the most famous examples of a “living fossil,” and a good evolutionary blunder to pass around the dinner table, is the coelacanth. Thought to have gone extinct 65 million years along with the dinosaurs, the fish has been found still living today. The fish which was thought to have crawled up on land and given rise to land animals, was found to be living; as a fully aquatic, deep sea fish that goes nowhere near the surface. According to the “trusty” fossil record, we shouldn’t see the fish that dropped off the fossil record charts when its fossils stopped showing up in more recent layers. The funny thing is, after 65 million years, the coelacanth is unchanged. Evolution is supposed to be all about addition of mutations and genetic information, if after 65 million years, the thing didn’t change, how are we supposed to expect other species to go through radical changes like monkey to man or fish to reptile in even less time.

Evolution is about a population changing to fit its environment. The reason coelacanths haven't changed (much) in millions of years is because their environment never changed in ways which demanded it. Evolution is a very conservative process.

Transitional forms are admittedly a trickier question, but given how unlikely any given organism actually is to become fossilized in the first place, it's not too surprising that we would only have the few transitionals we do, such as Tiktaalik.

This problem isn’t exclusive to illusive deep sea fish, and actually the issue gets worse as you dig deeper. There are completely modern looking animals in allegedly ancient geologic layers in places that are definitely NOT supposed to be in. If dinosaurs evolved into birds, then the dinosaurs would come first in the fossil record, in deeper layers than the birds. Dinosaurs were erased from the earth about 65 million years ago, evolutionists contend, and birds are their survivors of today—but what if we find modern looking birds with dinosaurs? You are not supposed to see ancestors alongside their descendants, they should be millions of years apart.

Why would you expect the environmental changes that caused avian features to be completely uniform over the entire globe? Some populations began to evolve in birdlike directions, some didn't.

And even if there are some birdlike features to be found alongside dinosaurs, this still isn't as radical an anomaly as something like a Precambrian rabbit would be.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Luke

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2018, 12:54:29 AM »
If it was a local event, it was no small matter.  Some think that the Black Sea flooded about 5600 B.C., although there is debate about that:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2018, 02:15:02 AM »
nvm
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 02:16:55 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2018, 12:16:59 PM »
Adaptation Yes ~ Evolution Never ```

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2018, 12:52:40 PM »
There have been times ~ over the years ~ that I have wonder ~ if Our Then World ~ was covered with water Just ``` I would say ~ no one knows ~ we all read ~ from translations ```

Our memory ~ and ~ Our writing ~ tell some of what ~ God has done & made ~ but ~ where scripture is silent ~ could not  ~ God have created an animal or a tree or ```

We ~ some of us ~ believed ~ in there being ~ A One God ~ Our God ~ before any writing ~ The Hebrew ~ kept the best records ~ or ~ the best surviving ```

When we gathered together ~ and ~ decided ~ what what surviving writings and stories ~ were to be coupled into ~ The Holy Bible ~ we `Our People  ~ chose from what was available ```

The New Testament ~ is the putting into written language ~ Our Memory ```

I believe ~ we know only a portion ~ of ~ what Our God has done ```

Park Austezo  ~ Glory to our God


Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2018, 04:25:53 PM »
Adaptation Yes ~ Evolution Never ```

There's no defined difference between the two. To acknowledge one and not the other is just inconsistent.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Sethrak

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2018, 12:35:12 PM »
Greetings Volnutt ~ there is a great difference ~ birds have been seen in certain island chains ~ to adapt to using tool ~ sticks to pry food from a shelled animal ~ no animal has ever changed species ```

You and I may ~ wear more and warmer clothing ~ in a cold climate ~ but we or our offspring or offspring's offspring ~ will ~ become bear ~ or ~ have we come from an other animal ``` Of course I use to dream ~ that ~ I could fly ~ how bout you ```

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2018, 03:07:15 PM »
That's not what's meant by "adaptation" in this context, that's more like learned behavior. Adaptation here is more like the Darwin's Finches of the Galapagos with their differently shaped beaks depending on which island they live on (adaptations that YECs generally accept, if I recall) or the bacteria strain that can only live off nylon and could not have existed in the same form prior to the 1930s.

One species becoming another is merely an extrapolation from that. Think about all the radical variants in appearance we find even within a species (from a Great Dane to a Sheepdog to an English Bulldog to a Chihuahua).
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 03:10:30 PM by Volnutt »
It's the double-edged sword of being lazy and being bored.- Reliant K

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Jackson02

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2018, 03:36:11 PM »
Variants in appearance we find even within a species (from a Great Dane to a Sheepdog to an English Bulldog to a Chihuahua).
The Chihuahua is actually descended from the Mexican fox so it shouldn’t be included.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 03:39:08 PM by Jackson02 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2018, 04:23:41 PM »
Variants in appearance we find even within a species (from a Great Dane to a Sheepdog to an English Bulldog to a Chihuahua).
The Chihuahua is actually descended from the Mexican fox so it shouldn’t be included.

I don't think anybody know's exactly what the Toltecs's Techichi was. Chihuahuas are still considered Canis familiaris, more closely related genetically to St. Bernard's than foxes, though.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2018, 11:19:16 PM »
Members of the dog genus Canis: wolves, dogs (both common dogs and dingoes), coyotes, and golden jackals cannot interbreed with members of the wider dog family: the Canidae, such as South American canids, foxes, African wild dogs, bat-eared foxes or raccoon dog; or, if they could, their offspring would be infertile.

A dog is a dog ~ is a Dog ~ be can breed out Gens But once gone ```

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2018, 11:22:06 PM »
What do you get if you ~ Cross a Rino with an Elephant ?   Helifino ```

no mova frm one toa nuther```

Offline Sethrak

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2018, 11:28:30 PM »
The Lord ~ has do designed ~ that Bicycles Cannot ~ climb trees so ~ no matter how much ~ we wiggle ~ and dance ~ the last three drops go down ~ our pants ```

EvOlu?Tion be noN Sense when ~  sence He started all This ```

Lord forgive me ~ and them ~ for we know not ```

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Do you believe the flood of Noah was global, as the Fathers say?
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2018, 11:27:41 PM »
Oh you of little faith.

Both the flood, and Jonah being swallowed by a whale, occurred. 

The Lord created the world, do you think He cannot make these two events happen?

What about Lazarus, dead and decaying.... brought back to life?
What about walking on water, or stilling the storm?

Is it just God that is doubted?  What about the saints and the miracles they performed in His name?
Did St. Herman actually stop a tsumani by merely praying and placing an icon on the shoreline?
Or the healing of many by the Apostles?

What about God creating the world in 6 days...and resting on the 7th?  Also just a story?


Do not doubt...but, believe.... and in your belief, turn to Him more often... and see what is truly possible.

I hope to one day be as devote as you, i blame a secular upbringing and a murky path ive been trying to uncover
God bless